Craig Caves?

[Lucky]

From Huffington Post, it looks like 3 states attorneys won a battle with craigslist:

CHICAGO — Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan says that Craigslist is getting rid of its "erotic services" ads and will create a new adult category that Web site employees will review.

Madigan's office said Wednesday that such existing ads on Craigslist will expire in seven days.

Madigan and the attorneys general for Connecticut and Missouri met with Craigslist officials last week seeking an end to ads they contend are advertisements for illegal sexual activities.

An e-mail sent to Craigslist CEO Jim Buckmaster was not immediately returned Wednesday morning.

Craigslist came under renewed pressure to remove the ads after a medical student in Boston was charged with the April killing of a masseuse he met on the site.

[Guest EXPAT]

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE54C4YP20090513

[TotallyOz]

Can't believe they gave in. I am really shocked.

[TampaYankee]

Chicken Little here...

I believe this is the first step in the Cybersky falling

First, goverment jawboning individual sites over internet content.

More to come:

Government jawboning internet providers over content transmission,

Taxation of interent access, and

Internet providers metering service to charge by downloading throughput (although cost of providing service is independent of throughput)

Moves for all of these are presently afoot. There are always those who want to impose their restrictions on what adults can do. They have begun to achieve concrete gains eg. CL. Government will finally succumb to the urge to tap a major revenue source. Providers see a cash cow with very serious profits from charges based on metered usage. Add to that the arrival of ads inserted by the IPs popping up as part of the service.

Imagine the interstate highway system where unapproved exits are blocked off, each entrance has a toll booth where you pay to enter and each approved exit has a toll booth that imposes a surcharge if you go too far or get there faster than the minimum speed limit permits. The amount you pay depends not only on how far you travel but also the speed with which you travel. Faster travellers will pay more, according to speed. Also, only approved food, fuel, and sundry items services will be accessible at pit stops along the way. Red meats, sugary drinks are prohibited as well as condoms, adult magazines and tabloids. Don't worry, plenty of copies of the Bible and Better Homes and Gardens available. Finally throw in bill board ads with sound effects peppered along the way to assualt your visual and aural senses.

Hope I am wrong. I doubt it though. Enjoy your drive.;

[BigK]

I've read that they're going to replace Erotic Services with a monitored Adult Services where it will cost $10 to post and $5 for reposts.

I don't think much is going to change. More "massage services" probably, but the ads are still going to be there with pictures, unless they also plan to drop pictures from the personals sections.

[MsGuy]

Jeez, T.Y., did a falling piece of sky conk you on the head? You had to know weeks ago how all this would end. No major corporation is going to defend its right to act as an "internet brothel." The legal issues were subsumed by the reputation problem. The only surprise here is that CL managed to salvage the fig leaf of a monitored adult services section. ( It's still not clear to me how they plan to handle the hook-up section.)

On the issue of content transmission, the telecoms would be a tougher nut for the bluestockings to crack. In the past the ISPs have proved willing to commit their considerable legal and political resources to protect their status as common carriers. If they are starting to change their position on that, it's news to me (I admit I don't keep current anymore.)

As to taxation, the only reason the internet has gotten off lightly is that some farsighted folks in Congress decided to wait and let the new heifer mature a bit before strapping the automated milk pumps onto its udder. I wouldn't premise any business plans on a long term immunity from taxes. The milkman cometh.

So far the content providers seem to have assembled a broad enough political coalition to block metered access and fast lane tolls. To the extent I can understand the various claims, the ISPs appear to be advancing sham arguments to cover a major money grab. That TV ad campaign they launched 3 years ago came across as pure B.S. to me. Don't give up yet. You have powerful allies on this one and as long as even internet innocents like me react to the ISP's propaganda with suspicion, you've got a fighting chance to win.

I hope the CL dust up hasn't occasioned any personal difficulties for you and Oz. Flying as low and silent as possible strikes me as the only sane strategy when the Calvinists are in the mood for an auto de fe. And I'm really looking forward to reading your posts from Havana.

[lookin]

Flying as low and silent as possible strikes me as the only sane strategy when the Calvinists are in the mood for an auto de fe.

The accused look on hopefully as Tampa Yanqui

explains that any benefactions were for time only.

[MsGuy]

LOL I originally posted "when the Calvinists are in a mood to cook some new martyrs," and edited it to read "for an auto de fe" after an image of that very painting popped into my head. That is waaay too spooky for me.

[TampaYankee]

Jeez, T.Y., did a falling piece of sky conk you on the head? You had to know weeks ago how all this would end. No major corporation is going to defend its right to act as an "internet brothel." The legal issues were subsumed by the reputation problem. The only surprise here is that CL managed to salvage the fig leaf of a monitored adult services section. ( It's still not clear to me how they plan to handle the hook-up section.)

I had some hope that craigslist would stand up for its freedom of speech, possibly with the help of the Electronic Freedom Foundation or the ACLU. It's not like it depends on advertising or an alcohol license to operate. No one is forced to go there and the erotic services section is/was a very small part of the overall menu of listings. So yes, I hoped.

On the issue of content transmission, the telecoms would be a tougher nut for the bluestockings to crack. In the past the ISPs have proved willing to commit their considerable legal and political resources to protect their status as common carriers. If they are starting to change their position on that, it's news to me (I admit I don't keep current anymore.)

Luckily, this front has been forestalled with the Obama election but the proponents are biding their time. Their day will return. Remember that the 2257 controversy remains alive and if that prevails it is not an unforseeable step that a conservative administration might leverage that against ISPs in the future.

So far the content providers seem to have assembled a broad enough political coalition to block metered access and fast lane tolls. To the extent I can understand the various claims, the ISPs appear to be advancing sham arguments to cover a major money grab. That TV ad campaign they launched 3 years ago came across as pure B.S. to me. Don't give up yet. You have powerful allies on this one and as long as even internet innocents like me react to the ISP's propaganda with suspicion, you've got a fighting chance to win.

I have little confidence in being able to beat back their attempts to succeed. My opinion is based on recent observations with the bank bailouts, bankruptcy reform failure, credit card reform timidness, waivering support for closing offshore tax loopholes, health care politics, Employed Free Choice Act, etc.

It has been crystal clear that the Republican lawmakers have been in the pocket of BIG OIL, BIG BUSINESS, BIG PHARMA, and BIG AGRA not to mention Banking and Finance. What I find so demoralizing is, after eight years of watching the middle class blatantly sacrificed to these entities, it is also clear that many/most of the Democratic lawmakers are also deep in bed with various of these same BIG INTERESTS. Some of the Democrats that are not in bed are boderline crazy in the other direction.

Bottom line is that money is power and power seeks to corrupt the government process in its favor. They succeed more often than not. Check out the above issues and look at the Tax Code if you believe otherwise.

To add to the shame... Congress sells itself so cheaply for smallish campaign contributions.

So yes, I believe the cards are stacked. The goose has fattened, there is too much money to be made. It's just a matter of time.

I hope the CL dust up hasn't occasioned any personal difficulties for you and Oz. Flying as low and silent as possible strikes me as the only sane strategy when the Calvinists are in the mood for an auto de fe. And I'm really looking forward to reading your posts from Havana.

The only problem it causes for me is that when I have absolutely nothing else to do and have exhausted the usual news/politics blogs, I seek a little diversion on CL checking out various cities to see what is going on locally. With a little luck I might encounter a little eye candy. There is plenty of other eyecandy out in cyberspace just not tied to local scenes around the country.

[RA1]

Not to put words into MsGuy's mouth but I think he meant he hopes that you and Oz don't have any problems on this site.

Best regards,

RA1

[MsGuy]

Not to put words into MsGuy's mouth but I think he meant he hopes that you and Oz don't have any problems on this site.

Best regards,

RA1

Exactly, RA1. "I've become accustomed to her face. She almost makes the day begin."

[MsGuy]

As long as the major content providers see metered fast lane proposals as being aimed squarely at their pocket books, the small sites should be able to fly in their political slip stream. BIG MEDIA owns enough Congressmen to protect itself from the telecom/cable lobby. If Disney, Murdock and the like ever find it in their best interest to cut a separate deal, then I agree, the ISPs will be freed to squeeze every cent they can out of the little guys.

I shouldn't have poo pooed your hope that CL would stand up to the AGs. I initially had hoped that the founder (name?) would fight this one out. He did blow off that Chicago police chief who started this mess. After I googled CL and realized what a hugh business it had become (and found out that E-Bay owned a 25% interest), I gave up it up as a lost cause. How could the guy react any other way than as he did? His investment bankers had to have been telling him that his stock in CL could lose hundreds of millions in value if the public shit storm kept snowballing.

[TampaYankee]

So. Carolina eyes 'criminal investigation' of Craigslist

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10242507-93.html

The attorney general of South Carolina is ready to launch a criminal investigation of Craigslist in connection with erotic ads appearing on the classified ads Web site.

South Carolina Attorney General Henry McMaster

(Credit: South Carolina Attorney General's office)

Attorney General Henry McMaster had given Craigslist until Friday afternoon to remove erotically charged material from its South Carolina listings. The AG's Web site now has this statement posted:

As of 5:00 p.m. this afternoon, the craigslist South Carolina site continues to display advertisements for prostitution and graphic pornographic material. This content was not removed as we requested. We have no alternative but to move forward with criminal investigation and potential prosecution.

Craigslist responded Saturday with a blog post voicing exasperation with the attorney general's statement, comparing the "adult services" listings on Craigslist with the adult section of a Greenville, S.C., Web site and others like it elsewhere in the state, along with telephone yellow page listings and print publications.

Seriously? The CL "adult services" section for Greenville, SC has a total of 1 ad for the last 3 days, featuring a photograph of a fully clothed person. The "erotic services" section for Greenville, recently closed, has 8 ads total, images and text all quite tame.

Meanwhile, the "adult entertainment" section of greenville.backpage.com (careful with link, NSFW), owned by Village Voice Media, has over 60 ads for the last 3 days, and about 250 in total. In sharp contrast with craigslist, many of these ads are quite explicit, quoting prices for specific sex acts, featuring close-ups of bare genitalia, etc.

Craigslist views itself as unfairly targeted by the attorney general's office.

Of course, no one in mainstream legal circles thinks either company should be subject to civil suit, let alone a criminal investigation. But if for whatever reason you were so motivated, would you target a venue with 9 PG-13 rated ads, or one with 250 XXX rated ones?

The South Carolina Attorney General's office was not immediately available for comment.

On Wednesday, Craigslist bowed to pressure from authorities in a number of states and said that it would remove its "erotic services" section, replacing it with a more closely monitored "adult services" section for legal enterprises.

CEO Jim Buckmaster said at the time that Craigslist would be on the lookout for sex workers trying to outmaneuver the new restrictions. "We have blocking and filtering technologies in place site wide. And of course our flagging system remains fully in effect across all the categories, but we will be monitoring that situation," Buckmaster told CNET News.

On top of ongoing allegations that Craigslist--which runs a wide variety of classified ads, including job and apartment listings--had become an outsized Internet bordello, the company's image recently was tarnished by news stories about a so-called "Craigslist killer" in connection with a murder investigation in Boston.

[TampaYankee]

I shouldn't have poo pooed your hope that CL would stand up to the AGs. I initially had hoped that the founder (name?) would fight this one out. He did blow off that Chicago police chief who started this mess. After I googled CL and realized what a hugh business it had become (and found out that E-Bay owned a 25% interest), I gave up it up as a lost cause. How could the guy react any other way than as he did? His investment bankers had to have been telling him that his stock in CL could lose hundreds of millions in value if the public shit storm kept snowballing.

Craig Newmark...

Your post, especially the EBay connection, prompted me to do my own Google. EBay connection is definitely sleeping with the enemy IMO. However, it seems that the EBay particpation is actually a back door operation. Rather than CL selling out to EBay, EBay acquired its interest directly from a former stockholder independently. It seems CL may have undertaken steps to diminish EBay's effective stake in the concern. (See third link below.)

CL still seems to be a closely held, formal profit making concern, with 25 employees that limits is income source to charges for job ads in ten cities and apt ads in NYC. I don't see that as a lost cause yet, though if EBay ever gets control... I don't think there is hundreds of millions in stock value to loose or investment bankers swarming over the carcus... yet.

http://www.craigslist.org/about/pr/factsheet

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display...master_company/

http://investing.businessweek.com/research...vcapId=11251097

[MsGuy]

Yeah, I knew that E-Bay and CL had gotten into a fuss last year. I didn't really understand what it was about until I followed your links. Thanks for the research.

I don't even pretend to understand Web economics, but I'm told CL is one of the top 10 sites world wide in terms of page views (& growing fast). It's so simple to run that 25 guys handle the whole thing and so efficient that they can pay all the operating expenses with a modest fee on a few job and apt. ads. That Newmark hasn't (yet) made the decision to commercialize the site doesn't mean that CL isn't worth billions. Jeez, can you imagine what Murdock would pay for a controlling interest in a want ad site that charges for 1/100th of 1% of its listings and still makes a profit?! As the kids say, "OMG!!!" Hell, he paid 100's of millions for that money drain Facebook. I'll bet every V.C. outfit and investment banker in Silicon Valley keeps a contingency plan up to date against the day CL decides to go public. However good hearted and well intentioned Newmark and Buckmaster are that's got to weigh on their decisions.

By the way, I'm told that Atty. Gen. McMaster is God's own evil asshole. Let us hope that he's just positioning himself to take credit for something that CL is in the process of doing anyway.

[MsGuy]

Ty, no surprise but your take on the CL situation turned out to be a lot more accurate than mine. Buckmaster just bitch slapped McMaster and back talked Andrew Cuomo. Wow! Since you were right before, do you read the lawsuit against McMaster as notice to the AGs that CL has gone as far as it intends to go and that they'll have to earn any further air time the hard way?

[TampaYankee]

Ty, no surprise but your take on the CL situation turned out to be a lot more accurate than mine. Buckmaster just bitch slapped McMaster and back talked Andrew Cuomo. Wow! Since you were right before, do you read the lawsuit against McMaster as notice to the AGs that CL has gone as far as it intends to go and that they'll have to earn any further air time the hard way?

I suspect this is an attempt to forestall other AGs piling on. When one is antagonized withevery indication that it could be a continuing issue it is best to growl and show your teeth and if necessary take a bite in the hopes that defuses the situation. I doubt CL can go toe to toe for long though without help and support. The scales are tipped in favor of the resources of the state compared to those of a very small business.

[MsGuy]

I just don't think of CL as a very small business. Granted it only has 28 (wiki update) employees but its revenue potential is unreal. As an experiment I checked the apartment listings for Sacramento. There were more than 1,350 for May 21st alone. At $10.00 per listing, the nominal sum CL charges for New York apt. ads, that's $13,500/day in untapped revenue from one midsized city. Not much chance that Newmark, Buckmaster and Co. will have to take out any 2nd mortgages to pay their legal costs. This is what I was thinking about when I guestimated CL as having a market value in the billions of dollars.

I'm aware that Newmark doesn't want to commercialize CL, but that doesn't mean he lacks the means to defend the site from publicity hungry politicians. The same can't necessarily be said for smaller sites, so you two be careful. There is an upside to police attention though. Remind me to tell you the saga of Dirty Dewey's Capitol News and Novelty sometime.

P.S. I agree that biting back is often the best way to handle this sort of thing.

[BigK]

I've seen a recent craigslist poster a couple of times now. I told him that he could post his ad in adult services. I saw his new ad later that day in Adult Services. I saw him again a few days later and asked how his ad on Adult Services did and he told me he hasn't gotten a reply yet off of the new section.

Erotic services has now disappeared in my city.

btw, he doesn't want a review...otherwise I'd gladly review him.

[lookin]

It feels to me like Craig Newmark and his fellow employees run CraigsList according to their own values. One of those values is not making a lot of money, at least not now. They make enough to keep the operation going, fund a nonprofit organization, and do whatever else they feel like doing. Now they have to start paying some major legal fees in support of other values. I'd guess the $5 ad fee goes towards that.

It's too bad they've got to take on this battle, but I'm glad they are. Who better? I hope it goes quickly, although it could sure end up being a biggie.

I really hope these folks hold fast. It's nice to see a company that doesn't dance to Wall Street's tune.

[TampaYankee]

I just don't think of CL as a very small business. Granted it only has 28 (wiki update) employees but its revenue potential is unreal. As an experiment I checked the apartment listings for Sacramento. There were more than 1,350 for May 21st alone. At $10.00 per listing, the nominal sum CL charges for New York apt. ads, that's $13,500/day in untapped revenue from one midsized city. Not much chance that Newmark, Buckmaster and Co. will have to take out any 2nd mortgages to pay their legal costs. This is what I was thinking about when I guestimated CL as having a market value in the billions of dollars.

The US Gov't definition for Small Business requires among other things that it have less than 1000 employees. I am unaware of any gross income requirement.

Didn't know the math for CL rent ads. Impressive. Nevertheless, it ain't IBM, Microsoft, or Exxon with limitless funds for legal departments. State AGs have the resources to carry out long term nuisance prosecutions as long as it doesn't involve extensive research and specialists that burn lots of money. Time is on their side as a slow bleed often accomplishes the goal through attrition of the opposition resources and will.

[caeron]

The US attorneys can get as Victorian as they like, the internet is global, and someone in some global backwater can easily pick up the slack. They'd have to start demanding that internet companies block websites, and I don't think that would go over well.

[MsGuy]

TY, your point about exhausting the will to resist is well taken. For all its revenue potential, CL is run like a Mom & Pop with very thin management. McMaster alone probably has more attorneys on his staff than CL has employees. Buckmaster is a programmer by trade and surely has other things he would rather be doing than getting into a pissing contest with the attorney general of every backwater state in the U.S.

Caeron, that all this hoorah by the AGs makes no sense is irrelevant. An anti-vice crusade is usually more about the crusader than the vice.

Lookin, yeah, it is kinda cool to see Newman and Buckmaster working as much for the fun of building the site as for the big buck payoff. I suspect that that the owners of this site aren't entirely motivated by money either.

[MsGuy]

The Fed. Dist. Ct. entered a TRO against McMaster enjoining him from pursuing any criminal action against CL or its staff.

The AG issued a statement claiming a moral victory in that he got CL to take the matter seriously. Surely the S.C. GOP can find a better clown than this to run for governor.