Sex With POZ Guys

[Lucky]

Our fearless leader, Totally Oz, makes what I think to be one of the stupidest comments ever made on a message board. Here it is:

"We've all had friends with HIV and, in general, we know what they've looked like at different stages in their medication. If, for any reason, you get a vibe that the dude “looks poz†it's a good idea to cancel the date as politely as possible."

Oz speaks of having friends with HIV in the past tense and it's easy to see why. He wants you to avoid them- and not just that, people who "look" POZ too! With an attitude like that, his HIV friends have surely dropped him from their Rolodex.

The simple fact is that you can't assume someone's status by looking at them, and, even if you think someone is POZ, that's no reason to run away, however politely Oz has you do it. You can safely have sex with someone who is POZ and live to tell about it. It's just a matter of using that AIDS education you have been receiving for the last 20 years.

The virus is hard to transmit, and we know how to avoid it. A little common sense, that same sense you should be using with ALL of your tricks, will keep you healthy and happy for years to come. The only people you have to politely run away from are people giving you ignorant advice.

Oz can do all of the AIDS bike rides in the world, but they won't do nearly as good as he could have done by providing accurate information. I sure hope he doesn't come into contact with someone with AIDS at the bike ride- they'll have no idea what he is telling his friends about them!

[TotallyOz]

I am glad you brought this up Lucky. I have known many poz guys and I still do. I also have sex with guys that are positive. However, I also have known guys who are positive and who are far advanced in AIDS that it is noticeable. It is obvious to me as I have been around quite a while and yes, I can do when someone has full blown AIDS. I do not run from them and I do not hide from them. I have actually been a caretaker for several and there is not fear there for me. However, when someone is getting paid for escort encounters and they look sick in ANY way, I do think the escort is wise to stay away from a sexual encounter with them. Whether it is HIV, the flu, couching, etc. To me, I don't think someone should put themselves at risk when they don't have to. However, that being said, I have been so hot and horny for a guy that even if he was couching and I knew he had the flu, I may put myself in a situation to have sex with them. That is my call. When someone else is put into any situation like the above, that is their call and I do think they need to do it smartly and intelligently.

I almost left the paragraph about HIV out but after thinking it over, I did not want to brush it aside. No offense was intended. I don't think anyone can tell if someone is HIV. But, I do think that many of us can tell if they are far advanced and the signs are there and at that point, one should be able to call off an encounter for any reason they so desire.

[MsGuy]

One factor Oz didn't discuss is the of viral load problem. Healthy looking guys don't necessarily have a low viral count (viral count rises before symptoms appear) but 'sick' looking men almost always have a heavy viral load. Current medical research (and common sense) indicates that a high viral load correlates with high infectivity. In plain English, a broken condom or minor cut puts you in a much more problematic situtation if your partner looks sick. And anyone who lived through the 80's knows exactly what we gays mean when we say someone looks 'sick.'

Lucky, before you go and fire off the big cannons, be advised that, like Oz, I have acted as a caregiver. I have had sex with guys I knew to be positive. For the past five years I've acted as a one man support group for a bi-polar friend who periodically gets depressed and goes off his meds.

Oz didn't advocate abandoning POZ friends. He recommended politely bowing out of an especially high risk business transaction. For younger guys, he gave some tips on how to recognise a person who might be sick. Just common sense advice. I didn't see anything in his post that was callous or disrespectful toward PLWAs. If I had I would already be blasting him myself.

[Lucky]

MsGuy, the nice thing here is that we don't have to rewrite Oz's words. This is what he said:

If, for any reason, you get a vibe that the dude “looks poz†it's a good idea to cancel the date as politely as possible."

I hope he has a nice time at the AIDS Ride and makes many new friends.

[manticore]

However, that being said, I have been so hot and horny for a guy that even if he was couching and I knew he had the flu, I may put myself in a situation to have sex with them.

I went to urbandictionary.com to look up "couching" before I realized you mean coughing.

[TotallyOz]

MsGuy, the nice thing here is that we don't have to rewrite Oz's words. This is what he said:

If, for any reason, you get a vibe that the dude “looks poz” it's a good idea to cancel the date as politely as possible."

Thanks Lucky. I have changed the article to say: “looks like he is in the advanced stages of AIDS”.

As I said in the beginning of the article and most of the stuff I write, I ask for input. Please continue to help me.

[caeron]

Well, everyone's different, and this is a bit off point, but for those of us who are older and remember friends dying, HIV isn't just another thing. I understand the safety issues. I understand that you must assume everyone is poz. But when I _know_ someone is poz that is the ultimate sexual turn off for me. My memories of those dead can't exist with a heated up libido.

That virus frightens me.

[MsGuy]

While I was trying (and failing) to use the edit button to put a 'my bad' p.s. to Lucky on my first post, the next 4 posts magically appeared.

Oz, since you're already in revision mode, please do something about "...it's not good to look pozitive." It's just a little too flippant.

Lucky: My bad. I should have treated your post as an alert that I had missed something.

Oz: Seeing that I promised Lucky I would do it, please consider yourself blasted.

[MsGuy]

Well, everyone's different, and this is a bit off point, but for those of us who are older and remember friends dying, HIV isn't just another thing. I understand the safety issues. I understand that you must assume everyone is poz. But when I _know_ someone is poz that is the ultimate sexual turn off for me. My memories of those dead can't exist with a heated up libido.

That virus frightens me.

Fear of the virus put me permanently off anal sex, which probably saved my life. For a while it seemed like every gay man I knew was dead or dying or waiting to get sick. Bad memories. For some reason I wasn't afraid of guys with AIDS. The virus itself scared the hell out of me, but not the guys who were sick. As you say, everyone's different.

[Lucky]

Well, I am glad that we could have a discussion on it. I'll take what I can get, but Oz's change doesn't help me much. The fact that someone is in the advances stages of AIDS doesn't make them any riskier as long as you play safe. A nice jack off could be fun for both. We do get to the point where someone's bad health makes them look unattractive. I can't say what you should do then, because attraction is an individual thing and completely different from the subject at hand.

[caeron]

Fear of the virus put me permanently off anal sex, which probably saved my life. For a while it seemed like every gay man I knew was dead or dying or waiting to get sick. Bad memories. For some reason I wasn't afraid of guys with AIDS. The virus itself scared the hell out of me, but not the guys who were sick. As you say, everyone's different.

Perhaps I was unclear. Nothing about the poz makes me the least bit uncomfortable. My father is a doctor and I never had delusional fears about proximity giving me infection. Just that it was an incredible turnoff. I'm happy to spend time with poz folks, just that the idea of fucking completely leaves me cold. I do sometimes regret that with hot poz guys, but the libido isn't always subject to the rational mind.

[Lucky]

"...the libido isn't always subject to the rational mind."

That's exactly right. That's why we try to educate and sometimes the libido changes too. For example, if you said that you avoided anal sex with POZ guys, that would be one thing. It wouldn't be the same as saying that you avoided any sex with POZ guys. It's a given that anal sex is the primary means of transmitting the virus, so you'd be be thinking rationally. Some would take the risk of using condoms, and still having anal sex, others wouldn't.

[caeron]

Then to understand the rest of the story, you'd have to know I love being fucked more than anything else. I'm a bit of a one trick pony, which may be a pity. Some day I hope to be rich enough to grow bored of that trick and branch out, but I think that's going to require a winning lottery ticket, and adamsmith's win reminds me that that kind of luck isn't my forte :-).

[Guest JamesWilson]

Thanks Lucky. I have changed the article to say: “looks like he is in the advanced stages of AIDSâ€.

As I said in the beginning of the article and most of the stuff I write, I ask for input. Please continue to help me.

Oz, I agree that some intimate activities may not be advisable when one participant is in the advanced stages of AIDS. However, there are many other forms of intimacy (erotic massage, spooning, handjobs, showering together, etc.) that are low-risk, and can be enjoyed by both partners regardless of HIV status.

I think it is a shame to deny all forms of intimate contact to guys suffering from AIDS, especially when they may already be dealing with feelings of isolation and depression.

Don't ask him if he's sick or not. Asking him will accomplish nothing other than insulting him. Remember, always be professional and polite.

I get where you are coming from on this, and in many cases you may be right. But if a person is obviously in the advanced stages of AIDS, it might be possible for the escort to tactfully make that observation so that an agreement can be reached as to what activities the escort is willing to do based on this new (for the escort) information (instead of declining the date with no explanation).

Difficult to do? Absolutely. Will (or should) every escort want to try this approach? Probably not. But it may be an option in some circumstances.

[Guest 2hard2tame]

I am glad you brought this up Lucky. I have known many poz guys and I still do. I also have sex with guys that are positive. However, I also have known guys who are positive and who are far advanced in AIDS that it is noticeable. It is obvious to me as I have been around quite a while and yes, I can do when someone has full blown AIDS. I do not run from them and I do not hide from them. I have actually been a caretaker for several and there is not fear there for me. However, when someone is getting paid for escort encounters and they look sick in ANY way, I do think the escort is wise to stay away from a sexual encounter with them. Whether it is HIV, the flu, couching, etc. To me, I don't think someone should put themselves at risk when they don't have to. However, that being said, I have been so hot and horny for a guy that even if he was couching and I knew he had the flu, I may put myself in a situation to have sex with them. That is my call. When someone else is put into any situation like the above, that is their call and I do think they need to do it smartly and intelligently.

I almost left the paragraph about HIV out but after thinking it over, I did not want to brush it aside. No offense was intended. I don't think anyone can tell if someone is HIV. But, I do think that many of us can tell if they are far advanced and the signs are there and at that point, one should be able to call off an encounter for any reason they so desire.

odd, people still bitch fight even when I don't post.

[TownsendPLocke]

Fear of the virus put me permanently off anal sex, which probably saved my life. For a while it seemed like every gay man I knew was dead or dying or waiting to get sick. Bad memories. For some reason I wasn't afraid of guys with AIDS. The virus itself scared the hell out of me, but not the guys who were sick. As you say, everyone's different.

A big plus one on this.I really never enjoyed getting fucked.And while I can feel pleasure fucking someone it was never the be all and end all of my erotic life.

I lived through"the plague years"in SF,and I was not always in the best position to practice"safe sex" as I was bombed most of those years.I did go to the baths-a lot!But for some reason my butthole was never violated while I was passed out.

In my later life I just decided that there were things I liked to do more than fucking-most of them are safe.

I always treat all the fellas I play with as if they are positive-it just makes life easier.

With that said if I know someone is having some problems with their health I usually(politely)suggest putting off playing until they are feeling better.Just common sense really.Not passing judgements at all-it is just the way I roll and have managed to outlive lots of guys who have not been so fortunate as I.

I do play with guys who are poz-just not when they are having some other problems.

[Lucky]

"Bodily decrepitude is wisdom; young

We loved each other and were ignorant."

[Guest FourAces]

The simple fact is that you can't assume someone's status by looking at them, and, even if you think someone is POZ, that's no reason to run away, however politely Oz has you do it. You can safely have sex with someone who is POZ and live to tell about it. It's just a matter of using that AIDS education you have been receiving for the last 20 years.

The virus is hard to transmit, and we know how to avoid it. A little common sense, that same sense you should be using with ALL of your tricks, will keep you healthy and happy for years to come. The only people you have to politely run away from are people giving you ignorant advice.

I'm curious as to how you can preach this yet apparently did not follow the advice you just love to force onto people? Your view is just that. I think we all need to use our own experiences and common sense ... and not follow your words because what OZ posted hurt YOUR feelings. I sure know you have posted much about other issues that have hurt other peoples feelings including mine. Yet its not as if I or others went on a rant about it.

[MsGuy]

TownsendPLocke: Whatever it took to survive SF in the 80's, I'm glad you made it. I lived about as far from ground zero as you could get and still found it difficult handle emotionally.

Lucky: The best fuck buddy I ever had was 55 when I met him nine years ago. X-mas before last I drove all the way to Wisconsin just to spend a week with him. Still...

"To be young is all there is in the world. [We extoll the delights of maturity but] Old people are such frauds."

[seaboy4hire]

I'm curious as to how you can preach this yet apparently did not follow the advice you just love to force onto people? Your view is just that. I think we all need to use our own experiences and common sense ... and not follow your words because what OZ posted hurt YOUR feelings. I sure know you have posted much about other issues that have hurt other peoples feelings including mine. Yet its not as if I or others went on a rant about it.

FA despite what Lucky may have or may not have said about topics in the past he is spot on with what he stated about not always telling if someone is positive just by looking at them. Point being if you saw myself or Jesse Dane walking down the street and you did not know who we were could you tell either one of us are positive? Let me save you from replying. The answer would be NO you couldn't. Moral of the story, never judge a book (person) by the cover and don't take what one says about their status as the gospel.

Greg

[BigK]

FA despite what Lucky may have or may not have said about topics in the past he is spot on with what he stated about not always telling if someone is positive just by looking at them. Point being if you saw myself or Jesse Dane walking down the street and you did not know who we were could you tell either one of us are positive? Let me save you from replying. The answer would be NO you couldn't. Moral of the story, never judge a book (person) by the cover and don't take what one says about their status as the gospel.

Greg

Great point Greg. Thanks for contributing on this thread.

[Lucky]

[ I sure know you have posted much about other issues that have hurt other peoples feelings including mine. Yet its not as if I or others went on a rant about it.

No, you just used a whole website to rant, oops, "speak" about it!