Arizona AG: Marijuana legalization could curb Mexican drug cartel warfare

[TotallyOz]

When President Bush vowed to "smoke 'em out" in the chase for Osama bin Laden -- who his administration claimed to be America's greatest enemy -- he meant it in the Wild West sense, not the California sense.

Who'd have thought that by the time his predecessor took office, otherwise conservative officials would be considering another way of smoking out a new and growing threat to American's safety: Mexican drug cartels, whose profits are largely derived from the illegal smuggling and sale of marijuana.

On Friday, Democrat Terry Goddard, Arizona's Attorney General, said that while he's not in favor or legalizing marijuana, he thinks it should be debated as a way of curbing violence in the increasingly deadly clashes between Mexico's gangs.

Speaking to CNN's Kiran Chetry about the firearms trade between the US and Mexico, he noted that almost all the guns seized in Mexico's drug war came from the US.

"This is the source," he said. "This is the gun store for a great deal of the world."

"What's the answer?" asked Chetry.

"There'd have to be a variety of answers," he said. "But one of 'em would be to enforce our laws more aggressively."

Goddard said he believes new firearm purchasing requirements could be key in helping stop what's called "straw buying," or purchasing a weapon with no intent of actually owning it and instead turning it over to a criminal for a fee.

"If we could isolate those, we'd find a lot of the criminals," he suggested.

"The entire trade, of course, is fueled by the selling and buying of drugs," said Chetry. "There are some who make the case, including a former deputy foreign minister of Mexico who now works for the Brookings Institution -- somebody by the name of Andres Rosenthal -- who says maybe we need to rethink our drug laws."

Rosenthal is one of a growing chorus of former Latin American leaders who have voiced support for the legalization of marijuana.

"He says, 'As with the repeal of prohibition, the US must follow a common-sense approach by thinking the unthinkable: The gradual legalization of some drugs. The US must realize that all drugs are not created equal,'" said Chetry. "They go on to say that marijuana, maybe some methamphetamines, do not have the same harmful effects and legalization might make a difference. Do you agree?"

"Well, I don't," said Goddard. "But I do think the debate needs to go forward. We need to find a better way to handle ... Right now, the item that's fueling the violent cartels, the murders in Mexico, the cartel wars that are going on right now that have resulted in over 1,000 deaths this year, I think we need to take a very aggressive stand on that and marijuana is the number one producer for the cartels. Sixty to 70 percent of their gross profits comes from marijuana. So, I think we need to look very hard at something we haven't looked at for years."

"So, that lends some credence to the argument ... Of legalization," said Chetry.

"It's certainly is a strong argument for getting that debate front and center and finding whatever options we might have to cut off the detestation in Mexico," said Goddard. "What we fear here on the Arizona border is the cartel on cartel battle is going to end up spreading across the border.

"If we can't stop it in Mexico, we're gonna end up with violence in the United States and none of us want that," he concluded.

A recent Zogby poll found 44 percent of Americans support the legalization of marijuana. That figure is up from 34 percent in 2001, according to a USA Today-CNN-Gallup poll.

On Tuesday, President Obama's Attorney General announced that the federal government would not conduct police raids on marijuana dispensaries in states which have approved cannabis for medicinal purposes.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Arizona_AG_M...e_way_0227.html

[BigK]

I've always been in favor of the legalization of all drugs. Tax it and use some of the tax proceeds to build nut case facilities to house those among us who choose to fry their brains. Use the rest of the tax proceeds to pay down our national and state debt.

Let U.S. farmers grow it, the cigarette companies, among others, to sell it to consumers. Let U.S. Drug companies produce safer and better pharmaceutical drugs & market it them through Drug Stores like Walgreen's or Liquor stores.

The South American Drug Cartels can sell to us also...It will keep the U.S. companies pricing in line.

Prices will go down, and prisons will empty on non violent criminals.

Let's do it NOW.

[BigK]

So doesn't anyone else here have views on drug legalization? I was hoping that this thread would have some lively discussion.

[Guest epigonos]

I am a fiscally conservative Republican who has for years believed that to combat drugs we have two options. 1.) Go after the USERS with a vengeance -- prohibition proved that when there is a demand there will ALWAYS be a supply. For example, seize 50% of the user or his parent’s assets on the first offense and continue seizing 50% on every offense there after: extreme yes but possibly effective. 2.) Legalize ALL drugs and tax the hell out of them. Now since we are never going to do the former we should try the latter.

What is really tragic is that Mexico is currently in a major battle with the cartels. This wouldn't be the case without the demand for drugs in this country. Furthermore Bush talked a great story but didn't make any real effort to end the sale of high power weapons in this country to cartel members. Obama has Clinton running all around the world first China and now the Middle East but doesn't appear to be remotely interested in what is happening just south of our border.

As far as I'm concerned the Mexican Government should cut a deal with the cartels that allow them to export all the drugs they can to the U.S. Then when our government piously complains the Mexican government can tell us to go fuck ourselves. This will NEVER happen because the U.S. Government will blackmail the Mexican Government on trade issues if they were to take such a stance.

[Guest StuCotts]

Surprisingly, I find myself in agreement with epigonos. The solutions to Mexico's multiple deadly problems with the drug trade have to come from the US. That means reversing a lot of fake righteousness and claims that those awful Mexicans are solely to blame for what's happening to them.

[Guest TNTTed]

I have long held that legalizing all drugs is the answer to these problems. Taxing them might be OK, but that revenue source would probably be miniscule compared to what we’d save just by not having to enforce the existing prohibition laws. Then I’d like to see the money used for serious (and truthful) ad campaigns to educate people on the consequences of drug use.

[caeron]

Seizing assets of drug users would probably decrease drug use, at the cost of creating a smaller class of now destitute and desperate drug users who would turn increasingly to crime to fuel their habit. I don't think it's a workable solution. Just like locking them up just fills up our jails to no point.

I think legalization or status quo are the best available options. Status quo may be a mess, but it does have to be balanced against the social cost of all the stupid people who will end up messing themselves up if we legalize more drugs. They'll assume that legalization means that they're ok.

Still, I think legalization is the best approach. I think drug crime is worse than drugs and this is the only way to really deal with it.

I just don't think there's much will to do it, however.

[Guest epigonos]

What I am about to write here will undoubtedly cause some ruffled feathers around here. I sincerely believe that many of the problems this society (U.S.) is currently encountering can be traced back to our successful effort to create a society without guilt. Unfortunately we have been extremely successful. This success has led to a society in which its members refuse to accept responsibility for their individual actions. What people do is seek out excuses for their bad and often unhealthy behavior. Thus I am an alcoholic not because I choose to drink but because I AM SICK. Thus I am obese not because I choose to eat too much but because I AM SICK. Thus I am a drug addict not because I choose to use drugs but because I AM SICK. Thus my child is a disaster is school and in general not because I don’t choose to oversee his or her upbringing but because he or she IS SICK. They have A.D.D. (Attention Deficit Disorder – they don’t pay attention), or A.D.H.D. (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder – they don’t pay attention and won’t stay seated) or D.D.D. (Discipline Deficit Disorder – they don’t want to be told NO by an authority figure). Thus since I am or my kid is sick we should NOT we held accountable for our actions but should rather expect society to pity us and take care of us – bullshit.

Until people and the society in general stop making absurd excuses for bad and unhealthy behavior our society will continue to become more and more irresponsible and more and more unhealthy. The drug problem in this country and the ungodly problems it is causing in Mexico is only one part of the much larger equitation.

[AdamSmith]

I am a fiscally conservative Republican who has for years believed that to combat drugs we have two options. 1.) Go after the USERS with a vengeance -- prohibition proved that when there is a demand there will ALWAYS be a supply. For example, seize 50% of the user or his parent’s assets on the first offense and continue seizing 50% on every offense there after: extreme yes but possibly effective. 2.) Legalize ALL drugs and tax the hell out of them. Now since we are never going to do the former we should try the latter.

I agree with epigonos too.

Comment on your Point 1: Actually we have gone after users with something of a vengeance. Mandatory minimum sentencing for users and smalltime dealers has given us prisons clogged with minor drug offenders, but no real dent in the problem.

Your Point 2: This is to advocate rational, that is reason- and fact-based, social policy, which has never been a strong suit in the U.S. Certainly not around hot-button issues such as drugs or commercial sex work. Obama has said in several ways that he wants to move government decision-making to a more rational basis. Drug policy, if he decides to touch it, will be a big test of the principle.

[Guest epigonos]

Caeron I couldn’t agree with you more. I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t really talking about seizing 50% of the assets of crack heads in the inner cities and poorer suburbs. They don’t really have much to seize thus 50% or nothing is NOTHING. What I would like to see is a crack down on the affluent suburbs, the Hollywood elite (Robert Downey Jr.) and some of our Washington D.C. leaders. In many ways it is these people who are the major problem. They have the money to indulge their habit and are indirectly major time supporters of the Mexican cartels. It is also the kids of the affluent who we indulge and let off with a slap on the wrist. The seizure of 50% of the assets of these people would make a huge splash in the papers and would likely make others in their groups think twice. Now do I think this will ever happen? Of course not – these are the very people who have the clout the make damn sure that something like this never happens.

Thus surrender and LEGALIZE all drugs and stop wasting millions (billions) of dollars on the lost War on Drug.

[Guest StuCotts]

Thus surrender and LEGALIZE all drugs and stop wasting millions (billions) of dollars on the lost War on Drug.

I'm reminded of the repeal of national prohibition. The situations are not altogether parallel. Prohibition was imposed on a largely unwilling population by small but influential ideology-driven groups. The repeal came when common sense prevailed, spurred by a more-or-less honest assessment of the harm prohibition was doing to the nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeal_of_Prohibition

In the present case, common sense doesn't stand a chance against the pressure exerted by vastly moneyed lobbies supported by the ill-gotten gains of dealers in deadly weapons, drugs and religion. All those livelihoods will disappear when the harmful effects of keeping drugs illegal do. I don't count on anything changing in the foreseeable future.

Did somebody say Obama? His plate is full to overflowing, but we can hope.

[AdamSmith]

Did somebody say Obama? His plate is full to overflowing, but we can hope.

Yr point about difference between Prohibition repeal and fixing drug laws is spot on. US society is open & accepting of its addiction to booze (so am I -- not a backhanded compliment at all!), but conflicted about its love of drugs (which I certainly am not. Can you say 'Valley of the Dolls'?!). (To say nothing of 'Return to the Valley of the Dolls' -- "You will drink the black sperm of my vengeance!" But I digress.)

But as for Obama: strikes me that he could designate the Surgeon General to lead this fight. First, giving it to that person, backed up by HHS Sec, would frame it from the outset as at root a public health issue rather than a criminal enforcement problem.

Then, second, there would be the role model of Everett Koop, who -- with no resources but personal credibility and the second-rate bully pulpit of his office -- transformed the nation's view of tobacco. Which before he did it seemed almost as unlikely as fixing the drug mess.

Only problem is, I am far from sure that Gupta could ever become another Koop.

[Guest epigonos]

I certainly am aware that Obama has his plate full BUT if he doesn’t assign major priority NOW to the Mexican cartel issue (possible civil war in Mexico) he will likely end up with a major international problem in his backyard. The cartel violence is already spilling over from place like Tijuana, Mexico to San Yisidro/San Diego, CA, from Nogales, Mexico to Nogales, AZ, from Ciudad Juarez, Mexico to El Paso, TX, from Nuevo Laredo Mexico to Laredo, TX and from Matamoros, Mexico to Brownsville, TX. When the violence get bad enough in these U.S. cities, and that day is rapidly approaching, the American public will whip itself up into a frenzy of irrational patriotic xenophobia. I don’t even like to contemplate what the outcome of that will be.

Mexico is like my second home. I spend a lot of time there and the situation is rapidly escalating into a civil war in parts of the county. Those areas are the Mexican northern states the ones immediately adjacent to the United States This is a situation that, no matter how full Obama’s plate is, simple MUST be addressed NOW and it MUST be addressed as the crisis it is.

[Guest jessedane]

Legalization is becoming more a question of "when" than "if" now days I think. The stopping of DEA raids in medical marijuana states is the first major step in that direction. With the current economic state of things in our country it seems like the perfect time as well. People in the medical marijuana community are estimating around a billion dollars in sales tax revenue for the state of California. Can you imagine the impact if there was marijuana tax revenue coming in from all 50 states?

[AdamSmith]

With the current economic state of things in our country it seems like the perfect time as well. People in the medical marijuana community are estimating around a billion dollars in sales tax revenue for the state of California. Can you imagine the impact if there was marijuana tax revenue coming in from all 50 states?

Yes! Great point -- the revenue potential could be what breaks the dam.

This is exactly what convinced Bible Belt states to finally allow 'liquor by the drink' -- restaurant & bar sales of hard liquor, instead of having to BYOB. (North Carolina for example did not allow this until 1978. Before that, restaurants and bars could serve beer and wine, but hard liquor could only be purchased, bottled, from state-run ABC or Alcoholic Beverage Control board stores. Which somehow were always situated out in the middle of an empty field, where the community could keep an eye on exactly who drove up, parked, and went in to get their fix.)

[BigK]

Wow...Thanks everyone for the lively discussion. It really seems to me that legalization could solve so many problems. Besides the sales tax revenue, I think so many businesses could benefit as stated in my original post on this topic. And let the Mexicans import...It will keep the prices under control and provide our neighbors a legal way to earn a living.

I agree that some of the tax revenue should go to education, but I still also believe we'll need residential care facilities for those who take it too far. Also we'll need the equivalent of of drunk driving laws...could make law enforcements job a little more complicated.

So we end up with free choice, but just like alcohol, our freedom of choice ends at endangering others.

And leave it to AdamSmith to point out the other benefits....once we're in a legalization frame of mind the next target to legalize would be the commercial sex trade.

[Guest 2hard2tame]

What I am about to write here will undoubtedly cause some ruffled feathers around here. I sincerely believe that many of the problems this society (U.S.) is currently encountering can be traced back to our successful effort to create a society without guilt. Unfortunately we have been extremely successful. This success has led to a society in which its members refuse to accept responsibility for their individual actions. What people do is seek out excuses for their bad and often unhealthy behavior. Thus I am an alcoholic not because I choose to drink but because I AM SICK. Thus I am obese not because I choose to eat too much but because I AM SICK. Thus I am a drug addict not because I choose to use drugs but because I AM SICK. Thus my child is a disaster is school and in general not because I don’t choose to oversee his or her upbringing but because he or she IS SICK. They have A.D.D. (Attention Deficit Disorder – they don’t pay attention), or A.D.H.D. (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder – they don’t pay attention and won’t stay seated) or D.D.D. (Discipline Deficit Disorder – they don’t want to be told NO by an authority figure). Thus since I am or my kid is sick we should NOT we held accountable for our actions but should rather expect society to pity us and take care of us – bullshit.

Until people and the society in general stop making absurd excuses for bad and unhealthy behavior our society will continue to become more and more irresponsible and more and more unhealthy. The drug problem in this country and the ungodly problems it is causing in Mexico is only one part of the much larger equitation.

so well said that I had to quote for truth.

NOBODY wants to take responsibility for their actions, they want to blame it on their parent's, their friends, their "hood" or their self imposed socioeconomic status.

belief me folks, if Barack Hussein Obama can become President of the United Socialist States of America, ANYBODY can do ANYTHING they want if the put their mind to it.

[Guest JamesWilson]

Mexico is like my second home. I spend a lot of time there and the situation is rapidly escalating into a civil war in parts of the county. Those areas are the Mexican northern states the ones immediately adjacent to the United States This is a situation that, no matter how full Obama’s plate is, simple MUST be addressed NOW and it MUST be addressed as the crisis it is.

Just out of curiosity, any idea why things seem to be escalating at this particular point in time? After all, Mexico has been a significant source of drugs into the US for decades, and the whole 'plata o plombo' threat has been around for a long time, too.

The cynic in me is wondering if, somehow, there are forces at work that are somehow pouring oil on the embers that have been smoldering for such a long time. Are the Mexican authorities stepping back and letting things get bad in the hopes that the US would finally take drastic action? Are US authorities stepping back their control efforts to foment a crisis that will finally galvanize public opinion so that they are then given free reign to step in? Something else even more subversive?

Or am I just being paranoid?

[AdamSmith]

Could it be...?

A Choice for Drug Czar

R. Gil Kerlikowske, the chief of the Seattle Police Department, was chosen Wednesday to be the White House drug czar, signaling a shift in emphasis from arrest and prosecution to intervention and treatment.

The selection of Mr. Kerlikowske, which had been expected, was announced by Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., who said Mr. Kerlikowske understood that “combating drugs requires a comprehensive approach that includes enforcement, prevention and treatment.â€

If confirmed by the Senate, Mr. Kerlikowske, 59, would become the director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy, as the drug czar is formally known.

“The success of our efforts to reduce the flow of drugs is largely dependent on our ability to reduce demand for them,†Mr. Kerlikowske said in a ceremony at the Eisenhower Executive Office Building.

“Our nation’s drug problem is one of human suffering,†he said. “And as a police officer, but also in my own family, I have experienced the effects that drugs can have on our youth, our families and our communities.â€

Mr. Kerlikowske’s stepson, Jeffrey Kerlikowske, 39, has had several drug-related brushes with the law.

Mr. Kerlikowske has been the Seattle police chief since 2000. He was previously the police chief in Buffalo and Port St. Lucie in Florida.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/12/us/polit...zar.html?ref=us

[BigK]

Sounds like a step in the right direction. I still think the economic angle is the most interesting. Open growing and distribution possibilities for our nations farmers and cigarette companies. And tax the hell out of it to help balance out budget.

[AdamSmith]

... Idea picking up steam?

Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

Could marijuana be the answer to the economic misery facing California? Democratic State Assembly member Tom Ammiano thinks so. Ammiano introduced legislation last month that would legalize pot and allow the state to regulate and tax its sale — a move that could mean billions for the cash-strapped state. Pot is, after all, California's biggest cash crop, responsible for $14 billion in annual sales, dwarfing the state's second largest agricultural commodity — milk and cream — which brings in $7.3 billion annually, according to the most recent USDA statistics. The state's tax collectors estimate the bill would bring in about $1.3 billion in much-needed revenue a year, offsetting some of the billions in service cuts and spending reductions outlined in the recently approved state budget.

"The state of California is in a very, very precipitous economic plight. It's in the toilet," says Ammiano. "It looks very, very bleak, with layoffs and foreclosures and schools closing or trying to operate four days a week. We have one of the highest rates of unemployment we've ever had. With any revenue ideas people say you have to think outside of the box, you have to be creative, and I feel that the issue of the decriminalization, regulation and taxation of marijuana fits that bill. It's not new, the idea has been around, and the political will may in fact be there to make something happen." ...

Cont. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,...00.html?cnn=yes

[BigK]

... Idea picking up steam?

Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

Could marijuana be the answer to the economic misery facing California? Democratic State Assembly member Tom Ammiano thinks so. Ammiano introduced legislation last month that would legalize pot and allow the state to regulate and tax its sale — a move that could mean billions for the cash-strapped state. Pot is, after all, California's biggest cash crop, responsible for $14 billion in annual sales, dwarfing the state's second largest agricultural commodity — milk and cream — which brings in $7.3 billion annually, according to the most recent USDA statistics. The state's tax collectors estimate the bill would bring in about $1.3 billion in much-needed revenue a year, offsetting some of the billions in service cuts and spending reductions outlined in the recently approved state budget.

"The state of California is in a very, very precipitous economic plight. It's in the toilet," says Ammiano. "It looks very, very bleak, with layoffs and foreclosures and schools closing or trying to operate four days a week. We have one of the highest rates of unemployment we've ever had. With any revenue ideas people say you have to think outside of the box, you have to be creative, and I feel that the issue of the decriminalization, regulation and taxation of marijuana fits that bill. It's not new, the idea has been around, and the political will may in fact be there to make something happen." ...

Cont. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,...00.html?cnn=yes

I've been advocating this, but even so, the numbers blow me away. Not sure where the Pot sales number comes from. "Pot is, after all, California's biggest cash crop, responsible for $14 billion in annual sales, dwarfing the state's second largest agricultural commodity — milk and cream — which brings in $7.3 billion annually, according to the most recent USDA statistics. " To me the "USDA statistics" is being referenced is in relation to the milk & cream figure.

I believe the pot figure may be inflated, and the laws of supply & demand dictate that once legal, the price should come down as more suppliers flood the market and the black market costs are removed from the price. But whatever the number ends up being, it clearly appears that this could significantly boost the economy of California (keep in mind that our enforcement and prison costs should also be reduced in this area).

[Guest Hoover42]

Apparently, the proposed $50 an ounce tax would make a significant dent in the state's projected deficit.

That's an expensive dime bag ya got there fella.

...Hoover

[BigK]

Apparently, the proposed $50 an ounce tax would make a significant dent in the state's projected deficit.

That's an expensive dime bag ya got there fella.

...Hoover

Just goes to show you the government is more crooked then the drug cartel's. I admit I'm not sure what the going price of an ounce is, but $50 seems like it should be a total purchase price.

[seaboy4hire]

Make it legal and then tax the hell out of it! The gov does this with booze and ciggies. So why not with pot? The very much honorable and kick ass Congressman Ron Paul thinks at least pot should be legal and taxed.