Flame Wars on the Gay Thailand Boards

[TotallyOz]

I have to admit that this board is very tame compared to the other boards. This is by intent and Stef, GayButton and myself all prefer it this way.

 

I have never really understood why grown men keep taking licks at each other on message boards. What is the point? Is it really to try to win an argument? Is it to try to convince others the good or evil in someone? Is it just to fill the void in their time? Or, is it more than that?

 

As both Gaybutton and myself have had people on the board to try to blackmail us to change board policy, I have never really been able to grasp the reasons why some will go so far as to do that. Or, to keep bickering back and forth with the same person and try to create even more hostility and spite.

 

What is the point to all of it? What are others trying to accomplish?

 

I really do not mean any disrespect to anyone or to any other boards. I would just love to understand why some take things beyond the brink of what I would consider the miles past the edge of sanity.

 

Having run message boards for so many years, I have never had any problems on other boards. It is only on these Thailand related boards that the sewers get waded in so often. Why?

 

I check the other Thailand related boards about once every week to see what is happening. When I was in Thailand, it was more often. Since I have been gone it has been much less often. For years, it seems the same.

 

Many question why I have such faith in GayButton to moderate this board. It was really very simple. I met him, I liked him but more than that, I trusted in judgments when it came to advice on the boards. His board was the one I read the most and got the most information from on my first visit to Thailand. He is also someone who has garnered my respect. I know that he gets a bit pissy at times. I think we all do. But, all in all, he does run the board strict and that makes my job very easy. He is opinionated and I like that too. I don't always agree with him but I still respect his right to say it.

 

I have read the insults thrown at him on other boards and it really does sadden me. He offters his knowledge freely to all those that ask. Many readers here just take information. He is always willing to share and assist. Before he ever even met me, or knew anything about me, he offered to take me around and show me Pattaya. He is a sweet man.

 

In all honestly, is this board going the way you want to see it? Are there suggestions you have for it? Are there ways to improve it? I have NO intent to letting the flame wars develop here and it was during one of them that I asked one member to never post here again. It was not Earwig/LMTU. Many see him as controversial. I see him as someone who has a great deal to share about his many years in the LOS. I much prefer him to others who constantly bitch and moan. He sucks at grammar but he does often provide great information. As most know, I also like him as a friend.

 

I read with great interest Rainwalkers take on what he has learned in the last 20 years. The post is on Sawatdee. If you have not read it, you should. It was great. The one thing I would add to the list is that nasty mean posting on any board is really unnecessay and those that participate in those posts are not typically the type of people you would want as friends in LOS.

 

I know this little post must be a long boring tirade and I am sure I will be eaten alive for it. But, I am serious. What would you like to see for the direction of this board. What are we doing right? What are we doing wrong?

 

[Guest Boxer]

Do same same for me, hate the pickering.

[Guest wowpow]

GT You say that the board is exactly as you want it and then ask what you are doing right or wrong.

 

There is a danger if a board gets too bland. Posts and views reduce and the place becomes very quiet. Cruising for sex Thailand is like that now but used to be a vibrant board with loads of viewers. Most of us are aware what happened to Gaybutton's previous board which was also busy with exchanges of views and eventually all the contributors left.

 

It is fascinating how boards take on a personality and over time even that changes. How much is to do with the moderation I am not sure but I think plenty.

 

One thing I do very much like on a board is an IGNORE button on each message and an 'UNIGNORE this message' button so I can have a quick peek at a message. I find that when I ignore a small number of posters my enjoyment of the boards improves. I do know how the current system works on this board and I don't have anyone that I currently wish to Ignore. OOOPs I see we already have this facility or did you react so quickly?

 

We are going through a good time for Gay Thailand boards with 4 prime ones looking like lasting. That's a big change since not very long ago we had only one and that was blocked by the censors.

 

So thank you for opening this board which I look at every day. Bucknaway has done enough brown-nosing to last you a few days )

 

P S It's nice to have you back posting again.

 

Take care

[Guest hajuthai]

Keep Gaythailand forum as it is now. I like that it is serios and you keep the worst thing away.

I also read 2 other boards, but especially one of them, claiming to be the biggest, is a garbage bin full of shit with personal attacks from some bitchy queens.

Dont let us have it here.

Keep Gaythailand forum as an informative forum.

Thanks

[Guest wowpow]

"especially one of them, claiming to be the biggest, is a garbage bin full of shit with personal attacks from some bitchy queens." quote hajuthai

 

What is a definition of a flame? Is this one?

 

"Computer Slang. an angry, critical, or disparaging electronic message"

www.dictionary.com

[Guest buaseng]

It is only on these Thailand related boards that the sewers get waded in so often. Why?

Could it be that a fair percentage of the membership of these boards (and especially the ex-pats living in Pattaya) is made up from the dross of society, which does tend to end up in the sewer!

 

My only beef with you is the way you allow Earwig/LMTU to display his sociopathic behaviour. OK, he may be a very good friend of yours but I think that friendship is blinding you to the fact that he is almost universally disliked by the vast proportion of the membership of the boards on which he is still allowed to post because of his anti-social, insulting and at times threatening behaviour. As for providing great information, that may be the case although it is sometimes hard to decide because of his poor grammar and lack of punctuation. In addition, it is in most cases plagiarised and then altered to make it seem that the information is a result of his personal contacts or own investigations, in order to boost his ego and make him appear to be the fount of knowledge.

 

Most people see through him and just shrug and think 'Oh no, not again' but such behaviour demeans the board, more so than any flaming ever does, and in the end devalues it and brings it down to the lowest common denominator - in this case Earwig/LMTU

 

Otherwise the board operates just fine.

[Guest xiandarkthorne]

I don't have a problem with Earwig/LMTU actually and I like it here. I don't have a problem either if things remain as they are on this board. Besides if Earwig is who I think he is, then I am even more tickled to find him here...but that's another story.

[Guest Hedda]

What are we doing right? What are we doing wrong?

That's a very different question than the one you began with, which was: "Why do some boards have a lot more flamers ?"

 

Frankly, i'm not sure that gay Thailand boards have a greater share of flaming than any other boards. I simply don't have the empirical proof to accept that proposition.

 

Assuming that they do, there are so many reasons why gay Thailand boards may not reflect what one sees in more traditional boards, starting with the fact that many posters on "our" boards are senior gay men coping with the life of an expat in Thailand. That, in itself, puts us in a very special and perhaps unique category of posters.

 

The other thing to remember is that being the most popular board, measured in the number of hits or posts, which can be manipulated in various ways, is quite different from being the kind of board you want to operate.

 

Have you ever compared the ciruclation of magazines like Playboy or Hustler to The Atlantic Monthly or New Republic ? You're talking 3-5 million in the case of Playboy or Hustler, compared to 400,00 for Atlantic and a mere 60,000 for New Republic.

 

The simple fact is that sex, gossip, and "flaming," however you define them, will attract far more readers and posters than the "very tame" board you seem to favor. It's for that reason that some boards invite, if not actively encourage flaming, sometimes using multiple handles to create more heat than light, especially if they are trying to "stir the pot" and make money in the process.

 

There's a trade-off there that's inevitable and it's got nothing to do with doing things "right" or "wrong." It's running the kind of board you want, getting the kind of audience you prefer, regardless of what others may think or do.

[Guest paulg]

 

In all honestly, is this board going the way you want to see it? Are there suggestions you have for it? Are there ways to improve it? I have NO intent to letting the flame wars develop here and it was during one of them that I asked one member to never post here again. It was not Earwig/LMTU. Many see him as controversial. I see him as someone who has a great deal to share about his many years in the LOS. I much prefer him to others who constantly b**** and moan. He sucks at grammar but he does often provide great information. As most know, I also like him as a friend.

 

 

With all due respect to GayThailand his comments re earwig/lmtu are too loyal and childish

 

Most of the abusive shit that is being posted on SF is from lmtu. You claim he does not b**** and moan then you do not read his posts

 

He has lost creditability and so has the person he is attacking He will never achieve the standing he had before he started this vendetta. He has lost respect from even the "gay elite" he claims to be associated with. Even he has stopped promoting the Ocean1 as the locals become more aware.

[TotallyOz]

GT You say that the board is exactly as you want it and then ask what you are doing right or wrong.

 

It is not exactly as I want it. When it comes to flame wars, I do prefer we not have them here. But, I know there are things that can be improved and expanded upon.

 

We are going through a good time for Gay Thailand boards with 4 prime ones looking like lasting. That's a big change since not very long ago we had only one and that was blocked by the censors.

 

I totally agree. I have always thought the community was better off with more boards rather than less. I would also add C4S to that mix as there is often some good information there as well.

 

Could it be that a fair percentage of the membership of these boards (and especially the ex-pats living in Pattaya) is made up from the dross of society, which does tend to end up in the sewer!

 

haha. That is observant. I was once asked why I like Pattaya so much, I said I felt at home there. I wrote a post once about pimps and ho's and a city where the night is king and sex rules. Guess which city that was?

 

Most people see through him and just shrug and think 'Oh no, not again'

 

I can't tell you the number of times I have felt this way on many boards with certain posters. Instead of getting into pissing contests with them, I just shrug and move on. Some can't do this and take the bait time and time again.

 

Frankly, i'm not sure that gay Thailand boards have a greater share of flaming than any other boards. I simply don't have the empirical proof to accept that proposition.

 

In my experience over the years, I will say that they do have more flamers than other boards. Perhaps they are just allowed to run amok on the boards but there is definitely a higher correlation on these boards than other ones. IMHO

 

The other thing to remember is that being the most popular board, measured in the number of hits or posts, which can be manipulated in various ways, is quite different from being the kind of board you want to operate.

 

Totally agree with you here. I have never said that we wanted the most popular board. I don't mind that going to someone else. My intent was to have a board full of information that others could use when they come to LOS. I think the informative posts are the ones that are the most productive and the ones that I appreciate the most. Naturally, the gossipy ones get the most views but they are not the ones I have been most interested in having on this board.

 

I do have to admit, I have been known to check out the Enquirer or WWN when in line at the grocery store.

 

The simple fact is that sex, gossip, and "flaming," however you define them, will attract far more readers and posters than the "very tame" board you seem to favor. It's for that reason that some boards invite, if not actively encourage flaming, sometimes using multiple handles to create more heat than light, especially if they are trying to "stir the pot" and make money in the process.

 

Not interested in stirring the pot or making my living from this board. It is something we do for fun and as a service to the gay community in Thailand. I have said from the beginning we will eventually put links on the site to pay for exenses but I never expect to derive my income from here.

 

With all due respect to GayThailand his comments re earwig/lmtu are too loyal and childish

 

Loyality is not a bad thing. Playing jump rope and Hop Skip Jump at my age might be stupid though. (I use those as examples of childish games as I always hated the ball sports and always played with the girls)

[Guest rainwalker]

How To Participate In An Internet Flame War...

 

With posters on this board divided into three groups (we don't know the size of these groups but I'm sure we have suspicions) - "Pro LMTU/Earwig/Catwampus/VI", "Anti LMTU/Earwig/Catwampus/VI", and "A pox on all their houses", I am please to offer the following royalty-free posting guidelines for your perusal should you choose to get your flaming groove on......

 

 

- Declare yourself the winner: Tell your opponent that the argument is over, because it's degenerated into pointlessness.... doing so at the end of your post giving you the lengthy last word in it. Or use a phrase like "game, set, match" signifying that you have won and that your opponent has lost decisively.

 

- Bring out the big guns: Call your opponent a Nazi or a racist or a pedophile. Call him Gay. Oh, wait... Sorry!

 

- Pretend to know people who know the truth: Quote them but only use their first initial. For example "We both know that C was there and saw you do it then run away like a thief in the night, so who are you kidding, a**hole."

 

- Denigrate the opposition's intellect: Point out all of their grammar and spelling mistakes, which naturally calls their tiny intellect into question. You know, sloppy spelling, sloppy mind. You may cut and paste the following... "Jesus, can't he learn how to use a spell-checker!!"

 

- Use the "I didn't mean to" ploy: Post some horribly vicious and insulting note about your opponent.... several minutes later, post a profuse apology, claiming that you'd intended to send the message privately to a friend.

 

- Boast about your supporters: Refer frequently to pretend hordes of lurking backers, who have mailed you privately to express their agreement and gratitude.... but aren't willing to come out publicly and say anything.

 

- Accuse your opponent of trying to intimidate your hordes of supporters.... add indignantly that you "will not be silenced".

 

- Use "I've been there, I've done that": Attempt to impress/silence your opponent by discussing your professional credentials and experience related to the topic at hand, which clearly make your opinions better and more correct than anyone else's.... be vague about details if your credentials and experience aren't actually all that impressive. (Also known as "dueling resumes".)

 

- Imply your opponent is a girly-man: Accuse your opponent of being overly sensitive, or suggest in a patronizing tone that they "must be having a bad day". Or a bad year. Ask if they are "on the rag." Or just call them a girly-man; it worked for Gov. Schwartzenegger.

 

- Claim the humour highground: Assert that an insult or other rudeness was "just a joke", and suggest that your opponent has no sense of humor or is dead from the neck up.

 

- Always use cliches: Do not be afraid to claim that the inmates are running the asylum; that what ever your opponent says is verbal diarrhea, and that a stitch in time saves nine. Pile it on, the readers like it!

 

- Adopt the Cloak of Truth: Insist that you are an avatar of Veracity and that the other person is Falsehood incarnate, or delusional. At least, they are "misled."

 

- Redefine words to mean whatever you want them to mean. (Also known as the "Humpty Dumpty" defense.): You can make up words if you want or even post gibberish so the people who scroll by your inanities see a long post and subliminally think you have a point to make.

 

- Try shades of gray: Claim that *everything* is a matter of opinion, that there are no such things as facts or truth.

 

- Drop that Name*: Drop names of "famous" people you know - even if you don't know them. Or discuss that you have recently dined with some, even though you were only in the same restaurant, and not in the same party.. This is called basking in reflected glory; hopefully the unwashed will think you are Hi So..

 

- Divert the opponent: Demand that your opponent supply lengthy and detailed references for their every statement. If they can't, or don't, they were obviously lying.

 

- Use The "Hydra Strategy": Be sure to have created multiple identities well prior to the scrum. Being a "newbie" and jumping in with slavish sycophantic support is a dead giveaway.

 

- Pull out the paintbrush: Tar and feather your opponent but remember it's important to make your statement sound solid. Preface your argument with the word "clearly." Example: "Clearly, (LMTU) (Catawampus) is a pedophile, and a deadbeat to boot."

 

- Be an armchair psychologist: You're a smart person. You've heard of Freud. You took a psychology course in college. Clearly, you're qualified to psychoanalyze your opponent. Example: "rainwanker, by using the word 'zucchini' in your posting, you shows you have a small dick and a bad case of penis envy."

 

- Cross-post your flames: Everybody on the Forums is just waiting for the next literary masterpiece to leave your terminal! From Baht-Stop to Ting-Tong, they're all holding their breath until your next flame. Therefore, post everywhere.

 

- Conspiracies abound: If everybody's against you, the reason can't possibly be that you're a shithead. There's obviously a conspiracy against you, and you will be doing the entire community a favor by exposing it. Give the conspiracy a catchy name. Build them a club house.

 

- Lawsuit threats: Threatening a lawsuit is always considered to be in good form. Do it early; do it often.

 

- Use a foreign languages: French is good, but Latin is the lingua franca of flaming. You should use the words "ad hominem" at least three times per article. Other favorite Latin phrases are "ad nauseum," "veni, vidi, vici," and "fettuccini alfredo." You may want to quote Schiller but only do it in the original German.

 

- Don't hide it under a bushel basket: Why use intelligent arguments to convince them you're smart when all you have to do is tell them? State that you're a member of Mensa, or or went to Cambridge. Tell them the scores you received on every exam since high school. Example: "I got an 800 on my SATs, LSATs, GREs, MCATs, and I can also spell the word 'hydra'." Talk about punting on the Cam.

 

- Accuse your opponent of censorship: It is your right as an American/Canadian/Australian/British citizen to post whatever the hell you want to the Forums (as guaranteed by somebody somewhere, I think). Anybody who tries to limit your cross-posting or move a flame war to email is either a communist, a fascist, or an albino. Possibly all three.

 

- Doubt their existence: You've never actually seen your opponent, have you? And since you're the center of the universe, you should have seen them by now, shouldn't you? Therefore, THEY DON'T EXIST! This is the beauty of flamers' logic.

 

- Embrace the Holy Trinity: Lie, cheat, steal. Or if you prefer, leave the toilet seat up.

 

- When in doubt, insult: If you forget the other rules, remember this one. At some point during your wonderful career as a Flamer you will undoubtedly end up in a Flame War with somebody who is better than you. This person will expose your lies, tear apart your arguments, and make you look generally like a bozo. At this point, there's only one thing to do . . . INSULT THE DIRTBAG! Example: "Oh yeah? Well, I have you on camera with a 12 year old and your mother wears army boots."

 

Cribbed from a variety of places on the Net and blended, revised and added to, all for your delectation

[Gaybutton]

Most of us are aware what happened to Gaybutton's previous board which was also busy with exchanges of views and eventually all the contributors left.

 

I'm going to start by taking exception to that comment. That comment pops up every so often, but it is simply not true. There were plenty of contributors, many of whom are now on this board.

 

After years of dealing with it, I finally became sick and tired of all the nonsense and gossip and I changed the demeanor of my board so that its sole purpose was to provide information and answer questions. My board ran exactly as I wanted it to, thank you very much. To my mind, numbers of posts and numbers of contributors are meaningless. I fail to see how that has anything to do with whether a board is successful or not. There are other boards that have far greater numbers of posts than this one gets. It's always the same small group of people, though, trying to out-insult or out-smart-remark each other. If that is what constitutes a successful board, then I hope this board is not successful.

 

The demise of my board was my own decision. When Thai authorities began to block web sites, my board was the first gay Thailand board to be blocked. I had no idea why it was blocked or what was going on and to this day I still don't. I made an effort to find out and never got anywhere. I had grown tired of constantly having to update articles and spending time seeking out information. I was in Thailand, retired, and ended up averaging five hours per day trying to keep up with everything. I had been seriously considering taking down the board anyhow and the blocking made that decision for me. It was a little difficult to run a board when it was blocked from my own location and I couldn't even access it. That is the reason I took it down. I even had problems just trying to take it down. I had to try and try again to catch one of the intermittent times the web site could be accessed just to be able to get in and take it offline.

 

I moderate this board as I see fit and within the guidelines set forth by GayThailand. That's what I try to do anyway. Virtually all of the posts that were removed, and to date there have been very few - less than ten, from this board were removed by mutual consent among the moderators. We rarely act unilaterally.

 

As for the flame posts directed at me that appear on other boards, I rarely respond to those for two reasons. One is simply considering the source. "Mean old Gaybutton won't let me post my crap. I'm telling my mommy." The other is that I would first have to give a damn about what others post about me. I don't. After so many years of involvement with message boards, I'm thick skinned enough that seeing myself called "Herr Gaybutton," "Gaybottom," "The Grand Ayatollah," "Control Freak," and all the other cute little names doesn't exactly cause my blood pressure to rise.

 

The way I see it, contributors who wish to post valid, reliable information about the gay scene in Thailand, and post it honestly, are perfectly welcome here. Those who wish to abuse this board and/or use it to try to threaten, intimidate, or attack others are not going to be able to do so as long as GayThailand keeps me on as a moderator here and as long as I wish to remain a moderator here. Some people have tried and were warned not to continue. Those who decided to continue anyhow and apparently thought they could make up their own posting rules rather than abiding by ours have found themselves on moderated mode . . . permanently. Being on moderated mode doesn't mean they can't post at all. It means their post has to be approved first. If the post contains information, properly attributed if it comes from elsewhere, then it gets approved. If it contains attacks and flames, then it doesn't. It's just as simple as that.

 

We have had a few flame wars appear on this board. In retrospect, I think we made a mistake by ever allowing it and I plead guilty to being a participant in it. It's not going to happen here again.

[PattayaMale]

I think that different points of view are very vaild and necessary for a board. I also think that pesonal attacks or lecturing members who make up the board community is very wrong!!

 

In my view, one of the moderators, has a way too large ego, and thinks that all that matters is his self-importance. Although some of his post at times are quite good, at times his "tone" is that of a bully.

 

There was a comment about a closed Board. To me it did not matter what reason it closed. It simply became poorly moderated to the point that most post were from 1 person, whose ego drove people away.

 

So my input would be to make sure that people feel welcomed and valued, even if they have differnt views. But I certainly think that nasty personal attacks have no place. It is a fine line. But a good moderator can do it.

 

Also, I wish there was a place I could save posts that I would want to refer to later. Maybe this is all ready possible and I just don't know how to use it.

[Gaybutton]

In my view, one of the moderators, has a way too large ego, and thinks that all that matters is his self-importance. Although some of his post at times are quite good, at times his "tone" is that of a bully.

 

I wonder who that might be . . .

 

As for saving posts, there is no specific function that does that. You could always simply copy the posts and save them on a word processor, create a blog and save them there, or use another method to save them manually.

[Guest kenrfc]

Flame Wars will always break out as long as people post anonymously.

You don't see many fistfights on Jomtien beach because people keep their traps shut. Once they are home (or at the internet shop) and safely anonymous they let rip.

 

I don't know if this is necessarily a "gay" thing. However living in San Francisco I have seen a LOT of nasty bitchy behavior that can become very vicious. And its not just Old Queens- it cuts across all age groups. I call it the Truman Capote Factor and I just don't understand why so many Gay men seem to think that kind of behavior is cute or clever or even justifiable.

 

I've finally found the only way for me to deal with it is walk away.

 

Living well is the best revenge.

[Guest BKKvisitor]

Flame Wars will always break out as long as people post anonymously.

You don't see many fistfights on Jomtien beach because people keep their traps shut. Once they are home (or at the internet shop) and safely anonymous they let rip.

 

I don't know if this is necessarily a "gay" thing. However living in San Francisco I have seen a LOT of nasty bitchy behavior that can become very vicious. And its not just Old Queens- it cuts across all age groups. I call it the Truman Capote Factor and I just don't understand why so many Gay men seem to think that kind of behavior is cute or clever or even justifiable.

 

I've finally found the only way for me to deal with it is walk away.

 

Living well is the best revenge.

 

Kenrfc is right: it cuts across all age groups and it's not limited to gays. But gays appear to be particularly adept at it. Often the venom is outrageous and the author makes no attempt to hide it. Other times it shows in their compulsion to correct the spelling or grammar of others. IMO, the causes of this behavior is almost always rooted in self-hatred (and hate of your "tribe") but you can never go wrong in blaming simple old cowardice. It also provides posters an opportunity to be dominant in an environment that compensates for their inability to dominant in the real world.

 

There's an interesting discussion about this topic on today's "Morning Edition" show on National Public Radio (it won't be available for download until after 10000 hr. EDT).

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9642178