Rick Warren and Obama

[Guest Conway]

I was really surprised to see Barack Obama choose Rick Warren to give the invocation at his inauguration. A lot of gay men and women, this one excluded, fought long and hard to help President Elect Obama win this election. I find Warren's words in a recent CNN interview to be pretty frightening:

"But the issue to me is, I’m not opposed to that as much as I’m opposed to the redefinition of a 5,000-year definition of marriage. I’m opposed to having a brother and sister be together and call that marriage. I’m opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that a marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage."

I applaud Obama for reaching out to evangelical Christians. This country needs healing. The political climate cannot be rightfully well served by the polarizing approach that the Bush White House took to so many groups left of center.

But, this move really confuses me. Picking a man who compares homosexuality to child molestation is clearly offensive to me and is as polarizing to gay voters as gay marriage is to conservative Christian voters.

[caeron]

I agree. I was pretty disappointed that he'd pick a bigot for this. Does he really need to pander to these people?

[TownsendPLocke]

Obama did not need to reach out to "conservative christians"(read bigots,haters,busybodies and idiots)If he needed a preacher(why?What about the separation of Church and State?)then there are thousands of less polarizing choices to be had.

I feel so bad about this.It is as if Obama has ushered us out of the house after we dropped off the fuitcake(or check as is the case of many of us )and that my vote was wasted on this man who,by this one dunderheaded action,has told us that Gay Men and Lesbians do not really matter in his world.

It was a stupid move when he appeared at Warrens church-and this is an even more stupid move.

A friend of mine who had donated money and time to the Obama/Biden campaign just got an Email from Biden's office asking for more(Why?They have a surplus!)responded that they would not get a dime more till Obama mad a substatial move to help Gays and Lesbians-and the first move would be to rescind the invite to Warren.

[TotallyOz]

A friend of mine who had donated money and time to the Obama/Biden campaign just got an Email from Biden's office asking for more(Why?They have a surplus!)responded that they would not get a dime more till Obama mad a substatial move to help Gays and Lesbians-and the first move would be to rescind the invite to Warren.

I am not happy with his decision to pick this guy either. I have also refused any additional funds until I see what they are going to do for gays. If nothing, I will jump ship and my support along with me.

[AdamSmith]

On one hand, this is disheartening. On the other, it may hold some only-Nixon-could-go-to-China potential. If moves like this cement Obama's cred with the center-right majority, then his authority and ability to push things through will be all the greater when he takes steps such as rescinding don't-ask-don't-tell, which he has vowed to do and in which I believe him.

I was no Obama fan to begin with; I was rabidly for Hillary. But I have been won over by Obama's ability to blend idealism with steely pragmatism -- and his rather remarkable ability to do so without, I think, having his realism shade off into cynicism.

Time will tell if that view of him is accurate, and if he can keep it up once the realities of governing descend on him in full. I hope so.

[Guest StuCotts]

I see it as a big but intelligently calculated risk. He has made a gesture of reconciliation to the right-wing base. I doubt that it's in them to accept it at all, let alone with a minimum of grace. But if the swine trample the pearls, it will at least be a matter of record that he made the unparalleled effort, which stands a chance of being appreciated by the more centrist Republicans.

He surely knew that there would be rage on the left. I suspect he will work to disarm it by applying the usual preternatural combination of intellect, reason and cool that leaves his believers weak in the knees.

I speak as a mostly unreconstructed Hillaryite who can't be unmoved by Obama's astounding qualities.

[TampaYankee]

I see it as a big but intelligently calculated risk. He has made a gesture of reconciliation to the right-wing base. I doubt that it's in them to accept it at all, let alone with a minimum of grace. But if the swine trample the pearls, it will at least be a matter of record that he made the unparalleled effort, which stands a chance of being appreciated by the more centrist Republicans.

He surely knew that there would be rage on the left. I suspect he will work to disarm it by applying the usual preternatural combination of intellect, reason and cool that leaves his believers weak in the knees.

I speak as a mostly unreconstructed Hillaryite who can't be unmoved by Obama's astounding qualities.

What calculated risk?

I cannot see why everyone has their panties in a bunch and their sensitivies bruised. One would think that at least he would be allowed to assume office and actually commit real screw--ups put in cement with lasting effect.

I don't like Warren. Some of his views are outrageous. So what? He has not been appointed Minister of Culture!! He gives an invocation. Big Deal. Ten minutes, one night. That is small potatoes in the scheme of things. If it give pause to some of the opposition getting their back up from the get-go then I can live with that.

Obama has got a shitload of problems to deal with domestic and foreign -- a real shitload. It will be helpful if he can sooth the opposition with minor gestures and demonstrate in small deeds a willingness to work with as many as he can on whatever agreements can be achieved.

He is not going to put Warren in charge of the Military Code of Conduct. Gates is not going to covertly carry out the Bush/Cheny war agenda. The Republican Transporation Secretary is not going to mandate gas-guzzling SUVs. If they do I'm confident he will reign them in or remove them. I haven't seen him pour any actual concrete that I find disturbing. Concrete deliveres don't start until Jan 20.

Eventually Obama will screw up in a way that has consequence. Maybe an unwise compromise that has real effect. If and when, then he will deserve serious criticism for something he actually has done as President. I'm prepared to wait for that and take my shots then rather than add to unnecessary distractions now as he tries to put a government together that hits the ground running at near full speed on day one.

We no longer have the luxury of a new administration figuing out what needs to be done and where and who should do it during the first six months in office. We dont have the luxury of sweating bullets over trappings rather than substance. We don't have the luxury of pushing idological legislation that causes a loss in confidence by the electorate that gets reflected in loss of legislative support and the next biennial elections. It is a dangerous world and we are going down the crapper economically in a very bad way. We need overall consensus not division. That doesnt mean there wont be differences but let's save the fights for big issues not who gives a ten minute invocation.

We will all be loosers if we pursue symbols over substance. As for Warren, I'll get my back up when he is appointed Minister of Culture.

[Guest StuCotts]

What calculated risk?

I cannot see why everyone has their panties in a bunch and their sensitivies bruised. One would think that at least he would be allowed to assume office and actually commit real screw--ups put in cement with lasting effect.

The risk of seriously alienating an important segment of his supporters.

I don't understand the reason for all the apocalyptic wailing either, but there it is until further notice. My hope is that it doesn't leave a permanent hole in Obama's support.

[Guest Conway]

The risk of seriously alienating an important segment of his supporters.

I don't understand the reason for all the apocalyptic wailing either, but there it is until further notice. My hope is that it doesn't leave a permanent hole in Obama's support.

Could it be that Obama is already strategizing for the next election? As TY notes, this country is in a hell of an economic mess right. The genesis of that mess dates back to the early 70s and our abandonment of the gold standard in favor of debt as the vehicle for funding social and military spending.

He has more than a few tough years ahead of him in terms of issues. Maybe bringing the strategy is, that by bringing the religious right closer, he has a better chance of weathering the storm with ratings that are not Bush-like.

[TownsendPLocke]

The Shrub's time in office is marked by a series of misteps,both small and very large.

If we let this mistep slide then we are giving truth to the lie that we are not a minority worthy of recognition and that we really do not have a place at the table.

That is not a situation I wish to let slide in hopes of better times ahead.It sends a signal,and IMO a very wrong signal.It is a mistep.We would be hypocrytical to paint Shrub with one brush and then use the same brush,dipped in whitewash(pardon the expression)to illuminate Obama.

Obama has promised change,we have had plenty of homophibia for the last 225 years.Change,real change does not begin with the same old prejudices.

[AdamSmith]

Excerpt from a new Boston Globe article:

... •Singer-songwriter Melissa Etheridge, who talked with Warren Saturday night when both spoke at a convention of Muslims, wrote an open letter in the Huffington Post, explaining why she, as a lesbian, was giving Warren a chance -- she even acknowledged that, "he invited me to his church, I invited him to my home to meet my wife and kids." An excerpt from Etheridge:

"Brothers and sisters the choice is ours now. We have the world's attention. We have the capability to create change, awesome change in this world, but before we change minds we must change hearts. Sure, there are plenty of hateful people who will always hold on to their bigotry like a child to a blanket. But there are also good people out there, Christian and otherwise that are beginning to listen. They don't hate us, they fear change. Maybe in our anger, as we consider marches and boycotts, perhaps we can consider stretching out our hands. Maybe instead of marching on his church, we can show up en mass and volunteer for one of the many organizations affiliated with his church that work for HIV/AIDS causes all around the world. Maybe if they get to know us, they won't fear us. I know, call me a dreamer, but I feel a new era is upon us."

• Blogger Andrew Sullivan, a gay Catholic and longtime advocate for same-sex marriage, compared Warren's views favorably with those of Pope Benedict XVI, writing, "At least Warren appears open to dialogue, rather than recoiling in fear and loathing. In that he is somewhat more Christian than this Pope." Sullivan had initially been hostile to the Warren selection, but declared more recently:

"I sense an understandable but, the more I think about it, misjudged response on the part of my fellow gays and lesbians. In our hurt, we may be pushing away from a real opportunity to engage and win hearts and minds...If I cannot pray with Rick Warren, I realize, then I am not worthy of being called a Christian. And if I cannot engage him, then I am not worthy of being called a writer. And if we cannot work with Obama to bridge these divides, none of us will be worthy of the great moral cause that this civil rights movement truly is." ...

Whole thing here: http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_...warren_lov.html

[caeron]

I commented to friends throughout the campaign that I wasn't a good Obama supporter.

I'm a cynic. I wanted Hillary, but in the end pulled the lever for Obama because I believed that it was time to end an era and try something new. But I'm not a dreamer. I don't believe the we can find a new, friendlier tone in american politics. I don't believe the religious right bigots who make big money off of hating us are going to change.

I hope to hell I'm wrong.

[TampaYankee]

I don't believe the religious right bigots who make big money off of hating us are going to change.

I hope to hell I'm wrong.

The fight is not for the right. It never has been. It is for the middle. Neither end of the spectrum can govern by itself -- certainly not for long. It needs the middle.

A willingness to talk to the other side to seek common ground stands the administration in good stead whether or not compromise can be achieved in the end. It does no harm to talk and can do some good on occasion. In the end it doesn't matter if the right is swayed as long as the middle is.

[BiBottomBoy]

In the next few months Obama is going to have to deal with two awful wars, a shitty economy and the disaster that is the automotive industry. To do so, he's going to need co-operation from both the left and right wing.

Yeah, Warren sucks, but he's not going to be in any position of policy. He's simply going to say some harmless words. Which, may give Obama some good will.

I'd prefer there be no prayer at all - but I'm also glad that Obama's first week in office won't be distracted by a week of news articles about there not being a prayer.

[caeron]

A willingness to talk to the other side to seek common ground stands the administration in good stead whether or not compromise can be achieved in the end.

I get this, but I think in the end it does more harm than good by validating that position. It's like the days when every gay rights story had to have some raving lunatic in it talking about how we were all mentally unwell. By including them, you just tell everybody its a reasonable point of view to hold.

[BiBottomBoy]

Yet, one of the things that upset us liberal gays over the last eight years is that our views and lifestyles were not included or respected by the Bush Administration.

Someone has to be the first to show respect for the other side. I'm willing to respect their believe that their god doesn't want them to suck cock if they leave me alone to believe that cock is god.

I get this, but I think in the end it does more harm than good by validating that position. It's like the days when every gay rights story had to have some raving lunatic in it talking about how we were all mentally unwell. By including them, you just tell everybody its a reasonable point of view to hold.

[Guest Conway]

I had dinner with a group of friends last night, all gay professional types. Most of them were ardent supporters of Hillary in the 2008 election. I was really surprised that very few were as incensed by this as me, the closet republican of my group of friends.

The feedback I got from most is that the hope Obama brought for long term recognition of gay rights offset his poor choice of a pastor to give the invocation at his inauguration.

Now, as someone who is somewhat indifferent to gay marriage as a political issue, I find this position curious. Had John McCain won the election and chosen Warren for the same role, I think that my friends would have been in a panty wadded uproar over it.

[caeron]

I don't know, for McCain, Warren might be a moderate choice.

I wanted Obama because I wanted an end to the 8 years of ham handed stupidity, but I don't think Obama or Hillary would have been a great friend to the Gay community. ENough of one to keep our votes, but not enough to really take a risk on our behalf.

We'll see, but I'm not expecting much from Obama. An end to "don't ask, don't tell" which I think the military is ready to abandon anyway is about as much as I'd hope for.

[Guest epigonos]

It never ceases to amaze me that so many people have difficulty understanding that in politics there are NO messiahs ONLY whores. It makes NO difference if their last names are Bush, Clinton, McCain, or Obama they are ALL whores. Obama is bright enough to know that the liberal left has absolutely NO where to go politically. They will bitch, scream, pull their hair, and beat their chests BUT they will ALWAYS, in the end, vote Democratic and for him

During this election I have repeatedly stated to family and friends that the three most disappointed groups of stanch Democrats, during Obama term in office, will be the African Americans, the Jews and the Gays. If he supports African American causes too fervently he will become, in the eyes of many white voters, an African American President and he will loose any possibility of reelection. If he sincerely supports peace in the Middle East he will have to put considerable pressure on Israel to make compromises it does not want to make and thus alienate huge numbers of American Jews. If he supports gay causes, such as same sex marriage, he will alienate HUGE numbers of voters who appose it. Now if he is as smart as I assume he is HE SIMPLY DOESN’T CARE and he knows these groups will support him and vote for him because they have NO where else to go politically

Yes I’m a cynic. I am a cynic because I love our political system, have worked in it 50+ years and am a realists.

[BiBottomBoy]

Wait Obama is a whore?

Does that mean I can buy his finely chiseled body?

[Guest epigonos]

That entirely depends on the amount of money you are willing to contribute to his campaign committee's war chest. Even though I don't know your finnancial circumstances my guess is you can't afford him!!!!!

[BiBottomBoy]

Rats!

I'd love to see the state of his union!

[Guest BewareofNick]

What calculated risk?

I cannot see why everyone has their panties in a bunch and their sensitivies bruised. One would think that at least he would be allowed to assume office and actually commit real screw--ups put in cement with lasting effect.

I don't like Warren. Some of his views are outrageous. So what? He has not been appointed Minister of Culture!! He gives an invocation. Big Deal. Ten minutes, one night. That is small potatoes in the scheme of things. If it give pause to some of the opposition getting their back up from the get-go then I can live with that.

Obama has got a shitload of problems to deal with domestic and foreign -- a real shitload. It will be helpful if he can sooth the opposition with minor gestures and demonstrate in small deeds a willingness to work with as many as he can on whatever agreements can be achieved.

He is not going to put Warren in charge of the Military Code of Conduct. Gates is not going to covertly carry out the Bush/Cheny war agenda. The Republican Transporation Secretary is not going to mandate gas-guzzling SUVs. If they do I'm confident he will reign them in or remove them. I haven't seen him pour any actual concrete that I find disturbing. Concrete deliveres don't start until Jan 20.

Eventually Obama will screw up in a way that has consequence. Maybe an unwise compromise that has real effect. If and when, then he will deserve serious criticism for something he actually has done as President. I'm prepared to wait for that and take my shots then rather than add to unnecessary distractions now as he tries to put a government together that hits the ground running at near full speed on day one.

We no longer have the luxury of a new administration figuing out what needs to be done and where and who should do it during the first six months in office. We dont have the luxury of sweating bullets over trappings rather than substance. We don't have the luxury of pushing idological legislation that causes a loss in confidence by the electorate that gets reflected in loss of legislative support and the next biennial elections. It is a dangerous world and we are going down the crapper economically in a very bad way. We need overall consensus not division. That doesnt mean there wont be differences but let's save the fights for big issues not who gives a ten minute invocation.

We will all be loosers if we pursue symbols over substance. As for Warren, I'll get my back up when he is appointed Minister of Culture.

TY,

Those could have been my words. I really don't understand what the fuss is all about. yes, Tubby the Preacher has said some incredibly stupid things, but he will be there for only a few minutes. It's a reach around for the Religious Right. That's it.

Meanwhile, Obama has appointed at least one out gay person to his Administration and if you believe the buzz that Janet Napolitano is a Big Ol Dyke, that means a lesbian is in charge of Homeland Security.

If something like this causes people to stop supporting the President-Elect, then they must not have been much of a supporter to begin with.

Neal

[BiBottomBoy]

The thing is that if he had selected a pro-gay pastor then Fox News would have gone apeshit for two weeks straight.

[Guest Conway]

TY,

Those could have been my words. I really don't understand what the fuss is all about. yes, Tubby the Preacher has said some incredibly stupid things, but he will be there for only a few minutes. It's a reach around for the Religious Right. That's it.

Meanwhile, Obama has appointed at least one out gay person to his Administration and if you believe the buzz that Janet Napolitano is a Big Ol Dyke, that means a lesbian is in charge of Homeland Security.

If something like this causes people to stop supporting the President-Elect, then they must not have been much of a supporter to begin with.

Neal

I agree completely that the President elect has a looming political agenda that is far more important than the symbolic selection of who si giving his invocation. I was just curious as to what so many who were attracted by the "hope" component of his platform now felt given that the "hope" of a large majority of people who supported him blindly has been insulted by this choice.

It is clear that Obama doesn't intend to address the issue in the public realm.