David Gergen says Hillary as VP

[TampaYankee]

I have always sort of considered Obama to be basically a pussy.

The pussy rarely wins slugfests unless he is far superior in cunning and guile. So either we are faced with Obama, the superior puncher or the superior strategist and tactitian.

I concede that Clinton is a hard puncher, much harder than I imagined in the beginning.

Maybe in Obama we have a bit of Muhammad Ali, a brilliant strategist and tactician that out maneuvered his heavy footed opponent's hard punches until his strength was sapped, and the match had slipped away from them. Sounds pretty accurate to me.

Plus he supporters are like robots or zombies in some strange haze after drinking the cool aide.

On what factual basis do you make this ad homiem charge? It seems that this charge could be made just as easily against any candidate's supporters with no real basis either. To what end?

[BiBottomBoy]

On what factual basis do you make this ad homiem charge? It seems that this charge could be made just as easily against any candidate's supporters with no real basis either. To what end?

Most candidates accept their nominations at conventions, not at football stadiums in some mass orgy of self love and brainwashing. Why not have Britney Spears sing "Happy Birthday, Mr. President" while they are at it.

I base my comments on the bulk of young Obama supporters (i.e. not everyone, but a lot of his support) who are following him blindly, without even knowing where he stands on the issues.

If you hear them talk about him it becomes very, very clear they've never ever bothered to read up on his voting records or public stances on anything. They are enamored with his charisma and vague promises of change.

So, they end up thinking he is some super liberal, when he's actually much further to the right than Hillary ever was. He's a Christian Conservative centrist is liberal clothing.

Please note that I'm not critiquing you. You seem like a smart guy informed on the issues, but most of his people are not.

They have no clue about his pro death penalty stance, his desire to kill campaign finance reform, his absolute fear and prejudice against muslims and arabs and a host of other issues that put him way, way the fuck out of liberal territory.

Which is fine, I guess. I have nothing against centrists, but I do have something against anyone with blind followers, particularly blind followers who are dazzled by charisma and have no fucking clue who they are supporting.

Plus, Obama has an arrogance that is truly astounding.

As to him being a fighter because he won the primaries - that's just off base. What happened was the Clinton people couldn't predict that this surge of mindless support would build up in weirdo caucus states so they misplayed their hand. In other words, they underestimated the gullibility of college kids and Iowa folk.

Just as soon as Hillary realized what was happening she did well - winning seven of the eight final contests. She was only done in by the Super Delegates who got worried about looking like out of touch racists if they didn't follow the yellow brick road.

Notice, Obama is essentially running a tie race, even though he's running against a party whose standard bearer has the lowest presidential approval rating since Herbert Hoover (a lower approval rating that Nixon had right before his resignation.)

Not exactly evidence to me of someone who is putting up a good fight.

In all honesty my cat should be able to pull off a five to eight point lead ofnMcCain (who isn't even liked my a lot of members of his own party) at this point and Obama is running dirt even.

Obama's only chance is that the Christian right stays home on Election Day and college kids stop doing bong hits long enough to get to the polls.

[BiBottomBoy]

Followed by his skilled, shrewd, decisive management of his primary campaign. In stark contrast to Herself (originally my rabid preference).

Hillary's campaign management fucked up when they didn't come up with a plan to deal with the caucus states.

I'd love to think his campaign people are shrewd, because it would give me hope for the general election, but their performance since primary season ended is proving otherwise.

This stadium acceptance speech is going to backfire on him even more than the Europe trip did.

White blue collar democrats in Penn and Ohio and Nevada want to elect a president, not a rock star.

And he's managed to alienate a huge portion of female democratic voters.

Now he's handing control over much of the convention to Hillary - who is just waiting to stab him the back.

Hell, she should start off her speech with "I come to nominate Obama, not to praise him."

Then he can start his speech with "Et tu, Bill?"

None of this strikes me as particularly shrewd. It strikes me as the actions of a dude who believes he can't lose - which is a dumb attitude to have in American politics.

[TampaYankee]

Just as soon as Hillary realized what was happening she did well...

Unfortunately for her, that realization came after it was too late for her to win. Not the best characteristic for a commander-in-chief IMO.

It seems you are destined to be one unhappy camper come Nov. Is there no silver lining perceptable in a win for Obama? Supreme Court? Right to Privacy? Gays in the military? Energy policy? Tax policy? Foreign adventurism? Or might you prefer McCain's leanings on these? There are real differences in the balance. Is looking backward on what might have been so consuming that a choice about real alternatives for the future pale by comparison?

Or is it that you fear a McCain victory is all but assured. Nothing I see at the moment confirms this. The American electorate can be fickle and short sighted. However, with so much current running against the Republicans and the present domestic conditions I think change will be a strong current to buck this go around unless... some outside occurence upsets the present landscape to refocus the electorate at the myopic level.

[AdamSmith]

Hillary's campaign management fucked up when they didn't come up with a plan to deal with the caucus states.

I'd love to think his campaign people are shrewd, because it would give me hope for the general election, but their performance since primary season ended is proving otherwise.

This stadium acceptance speech is going to backfire on him even more than the Europe trip did.

White blue collar democrats in Penn and Ohio and Nevada want to elect a president, not a rock star.

And he's managed to alienate a huge portion of female democratic voters.

Now he's handing control over much of the convention to Hillary - who is just waiting to stab him the back.

Hell, she should start off her speech with "I come to nominate Obama, not to praise him."

Then he can start his speech with "Et tu, Bill?"

None of this strikes me as particularly shrewd. It strikes me as the actions of a dude who believes he can't lose - which is a dumb attitude to have in American politics.

Well, I see little evidence that the Europe trip "backfired." Nor can I agree that Americans of any stripe don't like electing rock stars -- quite the reverse. Nor, again, that Hillary has him dancing on any more strings than he does her. Most of all, I think he knows full well there is no cakewalk, and that he needs every overmastering advantage he can get -- foregoing public financing to increase his odds of gaining an outsize financial mismatch, just to take one example.

We see the same phenomena; we draw opposite conclusions. Everyone's prerogative.

[BiBottomBoy]

I'd be much happier with an Obama win than a McCain win.

I just worry that Obama is going to blow it.

Unfortunately for her, that realization came after it was too late for her to win. Not the best characteristic for a commander-in-chief IMO.

It seems you are destined to be one unhappy camper come Nov. Is there no silver lining perceptable in a win for Obama? Supreme Court? Right to Privacy? Gays in the military? Energy policy? Tax policy? Foreign adventurism? Or might you prefer McCain's leanings on these? There are real differences in the balance. Is looking backward on what might have been so consuming that a choice about real alternatives for the future pale by comparison?

Or is it that you fear a McCain victory is all but assured. Nothing I see at the moment confirms this. The American electorate can be fickle and short sighted. However, with so much current running against the Republicans and the present domestic conditions I think change will be a strong current to buck this go around unless... some outside occurence upsets the present landscape to refocus the electorate at the myopic level.

[AdamSmith]

OK, after Pastor Warren's forum last night, I suspend some of my previous sanguine remarks about Obama's good odds. The warning bell for me, besides the thing itself, was Gergen's comments on CNN, moments after it ended, on how lackluster Obama's performance was, and how previous expectations that Obama would easily mop up McCain in the debates are now blown away. Gergen's subdued, even funereal mien betrayed how shocked he was that O did not do better.

[BiBottomBoy]

I was unhappy with this:

"When asked to define marriage, Obama told Warren, "It's a union between a man and a woman."

"For me as a Christian, it is a sacred union. God's in the mix," he said."

OK, after Pastor Warren's forum last night, I suspend some of my previous sanguine remarks about Obama's good odds. The warning bell for me, besides the thing itself, was Gergen's comments on CNN, moments after it ended, on how lackluster Obama's performance was, and how previous expectations that Obama would easily mop up McCain in the debates are now blown away. Gergen's subdued, even funereal mien betrayed how shocked he was that O did not do better.

[TotallyOz]

I was unhappy with this:

"When asked to define marriage, Obama told Warren, "It's a union between a man and a woman."

"For me as a Christian, it is a sacred union. God's in the mix," he said."

Like I have said all along, I don't think the voters knew what the fuck they were getting when they voted for this guy. But, then again, they voted for Bush 2 times in a row. We are not the most intelligent electorate.

[BiBottomBoy]

Yep.

The democrats (particularly young ones) convinced themselves they were voting for liberal rock star.

Instead they have a right leaning Christian centrist, who isn't even running a particularly good campaign.

At least the GOP voters had some clue what they were getting with Bush. I'm not a fan of having a right wing war monger born again president, but I do think the Bush voters knew that was what they were voting for.

Like I have said all along, I don't think the voters knew what the fuck they were getting when they voted for this guy. But, then again, they voted for Bush 2 times in a row. We are not the most intelligent electorate.

[AdamSmith]

Maybe Obama should insist the debates be held in a Naked-News format...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/14/o...i_n_119070.html

[TampaYankee]

QUOTE(BiBottomBoy @ Aug 17 2008, 08:26 AM)

I was unhappy with this:

"When asked to define marriage, Obama told Warren, "It's a union between a man and a woman."

"For me as a Christian, it is a sacred union. God's in the mix," he said."

Like I have said all along, I don't think the voters knew what the fuck they were getting when they voted for this guy. But, then again, they voted for Bush 2 times in a row. We are not the most intelligent electorate.

newsday.com: Where candidates stand on the issues ...

Hillary Clinton:

Opposes same-sex marriage, favors civil unions. Says it's a state issue.

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/chi-0...171367.htmlpage

Is it a God thing?

For the record, I knew exactly what I was getting and what I was not. I remain satisfied with my purchase. No buyer's remorse here.

It is an interesting proposition that over 18 million people were idiots that allowed themselves to be duped over a six month active primary season while another 18 million had such clarity of vision in that loosing crusade. Several terms come to mind, hubris and condescension to name a few.

I really havent seen a wave of buyers remorse in the nation, although a few intransigent hardcore members of the other political camp keep fanning the flames. If there was serious buyer's remorse we'd hear more than passing gas from those relatively few politicos unable to digest the results, and see a real coordinated grass roots/super delegate attempt to exchange the purchase at the convention. I just don't see it but we have ten days left. Who knows?

[BiBottomBoy]

And, you'd vote for someone with those tan lines?

In the immortal words of Jay McInerney, I'm "appalled."

Maybe Obama should insist the debates be held in a Naked-News format...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/14/o...i_n_119070.html

[AdamSmith]

And, you'd vote for someone with those tan lines?

I was thinking of the comparison between his and McCain's.

Of whom I was mercifully unable to find a shirtless pic.

[BiBottomBoy]

Grey pubes and shriveled balls make me hard.

I was thinking of the comparison between his and McCain's.

Of whom I was mercifully unable to find a shirtless pic.

[lookin]

Grey pubes and shriveled balls make me hard.

Must have lunch!

[AdamSmith]

Must have lunch!

Eeeww!

(Memories of The Old Heidelberg, a restaurant in New Haven of long standing but low repute. Now, to absolutely no one's regret, finally defunct.)

[BiBottomBoy]

We need details about that restaurant!

Eeeww!

(Memories of The Old Heidelberg, a restaurant in New Haven of long standing but low repute. Now, to absolutely no one's regret, finally defunct.)

[AdamSmith]

We need details about that restaurant!

Only that too much of what they served resembled grey pubes and shriveled balls.

The food, that is. Not the patrons.

Although come to think of it...

[BiBottomBoy]

Sounds like the perfect place to go to after the Republican convention!

Only that too much of what they served resembled grey pubes and shriveled balls.

The food, that is. Not the patrons.

Although come to think of it...

[lookin]

Must have lunch!

Eeeww!

One of my favorite expressions from days gone by, "(We) must have lunch!" is a line that always makes me laugh. First time I heard it was in response to my telling a new trick how cute he was. He wanted to keep the relationship going too. The line is delivered with the emphasis on "Must", and a slight flounce of the wrist completes the effect. I guess it comes across better in person.

I feel so old.

[BiBottomBoy]

Where `i live in France even the French straight boys talk that way when they try to speak English.

It's very confusing!

One of my favorite expressions from days gone by, "(We) must have lunch!" is a line that always makes me laugh. First time I heard it was in response to my telling a new trick how cute he was. He wanted to keep the relationship going too. The line is delivered with the emphasis on "Must", and a slight flounce of the wrist completes the effect. I guess it comes across better in person.

I feel so old.