As usual, Hillary puts bid for personal power above all else.

[JKane]

With the 3AM ad she did at least as much for McCain as she did for herself, and now she's set a path for McCain to have a 7-week free pass to attack the Democrats while she basically does the same thing--even though mathematically it is almost impossible for her to achieve the delegate lead. So 7 more weeks of this crap after which she will *still* not have the delegate lead! She'll then continue on with the hope of overturning the popular vote with backroom superdelegate deals and anything else she can grasp at such as counting elections where her opponent followed the rules and didn't compete...

All this just to get the nomination to a race that many feel she can't win due to electoral college math and her effect on the otherwise apathetic right-wing base.

And now there's this shit.

My feeling is that Hillary needs to sit down and shut up, for the good of the party and the country. But she's made quite clear that the good of the party and country can fuck off because it's "her turn".

[Guest BewareofNick]

With the 3AM ad she did at least as much for McCain as she did for herself, and now she's set a path for McCain to have a 7-week free pass to attack the Democrats while she basically does the same thing--even though mathematically it is almost impossible for her to achieve the delegate lead. So 7 more weeks of this crap after which she will *still* not have the delegate lead! She'll then continue on with the hope of overturning the popular vote with backroom superdelegate deals and anything else she can grasp at such as counting elections where her opponent followed the rules and didn't compete...

All this just to get the nomination to a race that many feel she can't win due to electoral college math and her effect on the otherwise apathetic right-wing base.

And now there's this shit.

My feeling is that Hillary needs to sit down and shut up, for the good of the party and the country. But she's made quite clear that the good of the party and country can fuck off because it's "her turn".

Why? She can still pull off a win. Just because you don't like her doesn't mean she should pull out. I think barack needs to sit down and shut up for the good of the party and the country. How about that?

[TotallyOz]

Why? She can still pull off a win. Just because you don't like her doesn't mean she should pull out. I think barack needs to sit down and shut up for the good of the party and the country. How about that?

I am passionate about very few things. I love sexy escorts and that has always been a passion. I also adore Hillary and hope that she pulls out a victory. I have not voted Republican since I was 18 years old and back then I didn't know why I voted the way I did. Now, at least I am able to make intelligent decisions when I cast a ballot. I will cast for Hillary if she gets the nomination. If not her, I can't say who I'll vote for. I detest Obama. I like McCain but can't see pulling the lever for him. So, does that only leave me with Nader? Goodness, I hope not. I still think Hillary will be the come back kid and get the nomination. But, the road to hell is paved with high hopes and good intentions.

[caeron]

We try to avoid partisan politics here. We've discussed the campaign, but have tried to keep it at a polite and distant level. I think this post crosses the line.

I'm a Hillary supporter, and I disagree with your assessment completely. But I don't think this forum would be in any way enriched by the argument about it. I'd encourage moderation of this thread.

[Guest epigonos]

Whether one likes it or not down and dirty politics has made this country what it is for better or worse. This country was created and our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution were written in smoked filled room by men who argued and bargained for days and not always with politeness and decorum.

The entire country became totally involved in the outrageous and dirty campaign in 1800 between Aaron Burr, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. I really don’t understand why so many people today are afraid to become involved in heated discussions regarding various political candidates. We will discuss, argue, and fight ad infinitum naseum about some of the most insignificant issues and thing imaginable yet we are in constant fear of offending people by expressing our political beliefs or our choice of presidential candidate. People get over it – all we need do is understand and accept the fact that no matter how sure we are that we are correct others might not agree. So with this in mind let’s go to it.

[Guest BewareofNick]

I am going to vote for whomever gets the Democratic nomination, I would just prefer it to be Senator Clinton. The original poster implied that Obama is somehow not in this for personal power. I just don't get that, just like I don't get the intense hatred of Hillary. What is it that she's done to earn it other than piss off the right wing radio hosts?

[Guest Conway]

As a Republican, I have a hard time understanding the backlash that so many strongly rooted Democrats have toward Senator Clinton. She (as well as her first man) has been a pretty progressive proponent of social legislation since she came into the national spotlight nearly 20 years ago. It would seem that she would hold a place among left wingers much like the Reagans do among right wingers like me.

I believe that the advent of internet wars on candidates by whackjob sites like Daily Kos and Michelle Malkin's tend to drive the extremism of both parties to the point that the whackjobs have far too much influence on the nominating process. As a result. Middle America is having a harder and harder time identifying with the candidates endorsed by the hard core wings of each party.

I find this nonsense regarding Obama's blackness to be one of the most ludicrous non-issues in the history of electoral politics. Eighteen months ago, Obama's handlers were upset that black voters refused to recognize him as a truly black candidate due to his mixed ethnciity. Now, they're concerned that the Clinton folks are physically attempting to alter his image to make him look more black than he actually is. Which is it? Concerned that he's not being portrayed as black enough or being portrayed as too black.

[JKane]

I am very surprised to be the only person in this thread with this view, although I was overly harsh in my first post (sorry, was tired and pissed). My problem with Hillary comes down to not seeing what she brings to the table.

First, she's by definition a DLC centrist, which we've watched lose the last two elections. So going in she's not going to be trying for anything revolutionary... she'll *start* with compromise on anything she tries to accomplish. Further, she starts her candidacy compromised. Her basic position on the Iraq war is that it was a mistake, that she let herself be duped--but she's awake now. So she agreed with McCain until she didn't, and if the surge continues to be presented as having worked she stopped agreeing with him at the wrong time.

Second, she arouses the currently apathetic right-wing. Gives them a reason to get out and support McCain. IF somehow they don't manage to defeat her in the polls (remember, Rush Limbaugh ordered his drones to support her because she'd be easier to beat--and they did--which helped push her over the top in Texas) what makes you think her whitehouse would be less of a circus than her husband's second term? Even if he does somehow keep it in his pants they'll start slinging mud... I'm surprised they've restrained themselves this long from bringing up her husbands last acts as President, those legacy-ruining pardons. Then there's his business dealings since, before they even have to dig out the time machine for her old questionable dealings...

Third, Obama really is something different and his potential for change is enormous. Not because he can give a good speech but because those speeches do a better job than any previous candidate in bringing new voters to the polls. Voters Hillary just doesn't inspire--she gets the people who would've voted anyway; he brings the new blood--obvious in the record turnout at primaries and even pain in the ass caucuses. Think for a minute about what that could mean for the rest of the ballot come November!

--By significantly *expanding* the Democratic majority in the house / senate and at least starting in a position of idealism imagine what he could accomplish! I don't think we saw its like in JFK's first 100 days, maybe not even in LBJ's.

Finally, I think that presenting a truly new face to the world will help us rebuild the relationships we will need to win in Afghanistan, get out of Iraq and have a real shot at winning the 'war on terror'.

[TampaYankee]

I'll keep this brief and civil as I dislike uncivil political discourse here and elsewhere.

I need to be able to respect the person that holds the office. To have that respect the person has to have integrity and principle that is constant, not a practioner situational ethics.

I have been strongly disgusted with our Presidential leadership for 16 straight years. I hope not to see it extend to 20 years. Obama gives me hope. McCain would suffice if it were not for his climbing in bed with the Ultraconservative repubs who have transformed the GOP to the POG.

On a less important note but personally critical to me, the thought of having to watch spinmeister Lannie Davis for four more years will drive me to blow my brains out.

[JKane]

Am I the only one really tired of Hillary's response to hard questions being "we'll talk about that after I'm the nominee"???

Clinton's earmarks.

I think it's starting to be pretty clear she has a lot to hide financially. The stuff Bill's been up to--where they've been getting millions of dollars, and now, why exactly they were given that money.

[TampaYankee]

Am I the only one really tired of Hillary's response to hard questions being "we'll talk about that after I'm the nominee"???

Clinton's earmarks.

I think it's starting to be pretty clear she has a lot to hide financially. The stuff Bill's been up to--where they've been getting millions of dollars, and now, why exactly they were given that money.

I didnt want you to think that you were ignored.

Not sure what there is to say though. It's one more example of the Clintons being the Clintons. The pattern is well established and has been for the better part of two decades. Some people cannot abide their tactics, some seem unconcerned or care less, and others approve wholeheartedly. Different strokes for different folks.

[Guest Conway]

I think it's starting to be pretty clear she has a lot to hide financially. The stuff Bill's been up to--where they've been getting millions of dollars, and now, why exactly they were given that money.

It's quite simple. They have been on the dole of the many political friends that they made by renting out the Lincoln Bedroom for the eight years that they were in Washington.

Shareholders of one of the companies that has supported the Clintons have filed a suit against the company and it's CEO demanding that he reimburse the company for the money paid to and expenses paid for Bill Clinton since he left the White House.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...2502332_pf.html

[JKane]

Hillary's appearance on Sesame Street converted me!

[KYTOP]

[My feeling is that Hillary needs to sit down and shut up, for the good of the party and the country. But she's made quite clear that the good of the party and country can fuck off because it's "her turn".

I do think Hillary and her husband thought when this process started that the nomination was hers. I am sure it is not, and will not be easy for her to give up what she and many others saw as a given. There is a feeling Hillary will do anything for the nomination. Her lying about landing in Bosnia under fire, plus other similar comments sort of proves this out.

I jumped on the Obama bandwagon early, note an earlier thread her were oz said he supported Edwards. But the Obama anti-American, Anti-white preacher did cause me to take a big step back. I still do not see how you stay in a church for 20 years and become close friends with someone like that and still want us to believe he is the unifier the country needs. Yes McCain has been endorsed by some right wing idiot preachers but he was not a member of their church. Unlike Obama, these preachers chose McCain, Obama chose Rev Wright.

I was very enthused at the beginning of this process thinking we had some great choices. Not so sure now. But I do take much joy in the fact that the moderates in the Repuplican party have wrestled control from the extreme right by chosing McCain.

Now as for me, I am one of those guys the candidates really need to speak to, because I could vote for anyone at this point.

[lookin]

[KYTOP]

Absolutely hilarious... I love, hehehehehe