Sorry state of American politics

[Guest SouthernMan]

This post is prompted by who do I vote for in the VA primaries on Tuesday. All of the candidates from both parties, imo, have several drawbacks. It is so disappointing that neither party has a candidate that I want to vote for in the presidential election. How sad and disapointing that this is the best that either party can offer.

McCain? Sheesh, imo, that guy is a psycho, warped by all those years spent in the Hanoi Hilton. Not to mention the fact that he is from Arizona, that, from my experience, is the only state still living in the 19th century, and as such, I would never vote for someone from Arizona.

Hillary Clinton? Totally failed at her attempt for universal health care during Bill's first term, and from all accounts was a nasty, abusive bitch to her staff, while attempting to do so. And now her policy will be to force payroll deductions from the middle class and working poor to finance that? It was the Clinton administration that denied gay rights by enacting the "don't ask, don't tell" military bullshit. It was also the Clinton administration that passed NAFTA, putting many thousands of Americans in the manufacturing industries out of work and destroying 80+ years of accomplishments by the labor unions, devastatining cities like Cleveland, Gary, Detroit and Pittsburgh. It was also the Clinton administration that expanded the H1B visa allocations that allowed thousands of IT people to come from India to the U.S., keeping down the wages of Americans in the IT field.

Clinton opened the gates to the abuses of the Bush administration, as far as H1B Visa and outsourcing! Time for a change!!!

Obama? I want to vote for Obama! I like his stance on outsourcing jobs from America to overseas. I like his thoughts on health care. I love his charisma and his hope for America. I hate his stance on illegal immigrants (just like McCain's). I say NO to amnesty for illegal immigrants, as I want them to be rounded up and deported, as they are illegal, and take jobs away from Americans! I don't like his condescending attiitude on gay marriage. I would vote for him, if he changed his stance on those issues, otherwise not!

[Guest raulgmanzo]

Rounding up illegal aliens and deport them is unworkable and pretty un-american. The founders of this great country can be considered illegal immigrants or decendants of illegal or undocumented immigrants. And if you want to throw around notions of illegality many of our borders are illegal, built on lands taken by force, or under treaties long since broken. No I'm not suggesting that accepting illegal immigrants should be some pennance for our own past. But I still believe in the American ideals of freedom upon which this country was built.

One of the core principals of the colonization of the new world is the notion that people have freedom of movement in the pursuit of happiness. Back in the days of the colonists there were many pre-european civilizations that tried to prevent the coming or spread of the colonists. While I think my european colonist ancestors should havebeenmore respectful of the cultures of my native american ancestors I don't think anyone then or now has the right to deny any peoples of the right to free movement in the pursuit of happiness. Granted that movement should be orderly, but it must be allowed.

Some think that in colonial times there was enough land and resources but now there isn't enough to go around. But that ignores that early hunters of buffalo probably felt there were already enough people. So things change. If we continue to live as though pollution is not a problem, pretend oil is unlimited, and mismanage our waterways then yes we already have too many people, here and in the world as a whole. But with some sensible changes this land can support a heck of a lot more people.

We have entire states that have lost population. Cities and whole neighborhoods that would be empty rust pots if not for the enterprise of immigrants both "legal" and "illegal". I believe in the inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And that we were created equal. None of us is entitled to preferential treatment or exclusive access to this land. Else our forefathers should not have come in the first place. And that goes also for the various waves of pre-eurpean migration accross the bering straits from Asia.

We needn't fear immigration, diversity is our strength. As long as we remain free there is hope we will continue to find solutions to the challenges that we ultimately face. Challenges that we as communities, states, nations and a whole panet will certainly face no matter how we handle the movement of people and growth of humankind.

Of course anytime one has large groups of people doing something illegal there is a problem. But the problem is a complicated one involving economic policies, labor problems, communities split by borders built from unresolved disputes, borders that ignore natural resources, and people on both sides of the border and in all parties and walks of life who choose to ignore or subvert regulations and laws. But it is highly unlikely we can solve the problem by rounding up "illegals", deporting them and building a fence.

The U.S. diverts water from the colorado river for Imperial Valley irrigation via (ironically) the All-American canal. If not for that water the Imperial Valley wouldn't be the U.S. major source of winter fruits and vegetables. If not for colorado river water diversion for U.S. farms, industry and cities there would be lots of water, farming, and industry around the colorado river delta on the Mexico side of the border and then maybe people from an impoverished california might be sneaking into mexico for work.. We divert nearly all the river water for cities like Las Vegas, Pheonix, and Los Angeles and farms and wonder why there is a labor flow towards those very places? Clearly the solution to illegal immigration requires much more thought then sending them back. That would clearly be a disaster on BOTH sides of the border.

[Guest StuCotts]

The idea of rounding up all illegal immigrants and dumping them over one border or another is beneath even Bush. Not a good sign for those who advocate it.

But for the truly determined, I submit that one way to get to the illegals taking away all those jobs from Americans is to crack down on the good American business owners who gladly employ them illegally, often in abusive conditions. Another is to organize a grass-roots movement of Americans who are eager to apply for those illegally held jobs that guarantee they will be treated like garbage in subhuman circumstances, and hold mass demonstrations. I look forward to reports of success.

The real beneficiaries of the present illegal immigrant situation are those, in government and out, who can feel truly patriotic only when crapping on somebody, preferably at the top of their lungs.

[TampaYankee]

I really hesitate to enter into discussions of this political season. I have little to offer of positive note other than to say that I liked some positions of all candidates except Brownback. There is nothing about Sam that I liked. Everyone has/had certain pluses and also very significant negatives that, in almost all cases, outweigh the positives.

There are so many important issues at this time in our history. Unfortunately, no candidate has my confidence to address all of the imporant issues as I see them. The candidates are so flawed that I am left to make my choice on intangibles and a single issue. Given the circumstance I'm left to vote knowing that there are times I seriously will be disappointed, should my candidate prevail. My disappointment will be even worse if my candidate doesn't prevail. This is a hell of a quandry to face.

I am tired of the Bush Years, I am tired of the Clinton Years. I am tired of the Right Wing Idealogues. I am tired of the Left Wing Idealogues. Enough has been more than enough for me. I have had much too much of the polarization.

I am aghast that so many Americans are eager to weave the disenfrachisement of many of our citizens into the constitutional fabric of our Nation. The last time this was done was the drafting of the Constitution when slaves were deemed to be three-fifths of a person, but only for the purpose of assessing vote and population counts. This was done as a compromise to permit the birth of a nation, not an insignificant cause. I see no similar pressing purpose today -- nothing comensurate with the birth of a nation -- that warrants creating a secondary citizen class in the Fabric of our Nation. The concept is an abomination to the American Ideal that All Men Are Created Equal. Admittedly our Nation from its inception, fell short of realizing that ideal. But our historical record has chronicled our advances in fits and starts to acheive that ideal. Not since our inception have we, as a nation, sought to retreat and declare that our nation should be founded on the recognition that many of our citizens are unworthy to enjoy the all rights and protections of the Law of the Land.

I cannot abide anyone that would support that concept or that would appeal to those that support that concept or to anyone that would seek a Supreme Court predisposed to the idea that the Constitution does not guarantee Equal Rights Under the Law for all citizens.

There are many serious problems we face: immigration, war on terror, health care, the economy... . I can see living with those problems. I prefer not to and hope I wont have to. However, I cannot see living in the US with a Constitution that disenfrachises a segment of its own citizens, or that is twisted to permit suspension of habius corpus, or unregulated searches and seizures under certain conditions that are determined by those agencies that conduct the searches and seizures. In short, that is the tyranny that our forefathers sought to free us from.

I choose to vote for what I believe will be the best way to preserve our ideals and freedoms, and return to civility in our political dialog. Then maybe solutiions to the other problems will follow.

[caeron]

There are something over 10 million illegals in this country. Doing jobs that americans won't do.

We have horrible problems here in Oregon getting enough farm labor for the crops. Farmers have had to switch crops to things that require less labor to avoid having things rot in the field.

I'm not exactly thrilled that we have a ton of illegal immigrants, but I think it's a consequence of us not having a proper immigration policy that allowed the workers our country needs to come here. Deporting them won't work while we have such a need for the labor.

[TampaYankee]

The immigration problem is not rocket science. It is a simple though not easy problem to solve if there is a will to do it. So far there has not been that will.

Business wants cheap labor. Political parties want new voters. Special interests want wishes and desires realized. The American people defeated this coalition only thru the strongest foot stomping seen in years, maybe ever, to their congressional representatives. The ordeal is not over and the interests will take another run. It remains to be seen if the American People will prevail in the next round. It may require that one House of Congress be able to sustain a veto. Not a sure thing.

The simple solution: First, secure the borders and ports. Period. Second, stamp out illegal employment, instituting and enforcing severe penalties on employers. Third, use law enforcement to round up, arrest and deport the criminal elements estimated at two million illegals. Fourth, create a viable guest worker program that identifies and tracks workers, and limits the duration of employment. The guest workers will be recruited from their native country. Permit would be renewable but only from the home country. Families not permitted. Enforce labor laws to protect guest workers from unscrupulous employers. The rest will sort itself out in time.

This won't be easy to actualize but it is simple plan. The problem is this does not satisfy Business, Special Interest Motives, or Political Party growth. The people have some power to defeat legislation. They have no power to submit legislation. Even less to enforce it should it pass.

The outlook is for more of the same no matter how much dust is kicked up or how often a sow's ear is called a silk purse. The establishment has no real incentive to change anything. They prefer to embrace a new pool of cheap labor who are potential voters -- the more the merrier.

I would like to be proven wrong.

[TownsendPLocke]

I got goosebumps last tuesday when my InkAVote marker went down for Obama-after hessitating a moment over Edwards.

I had to overcome many years of stupid prejudices learned from my upbringing/family.Logic did win out finally.

I really want some change in the white house,Not a continuation of a former President.

I think McCain(old-possibly senile and kinda crazy)is Very beatable-and thus we have a real chance here and now.

The bible thumper might as well drop out now.and a combo ticket is an even surer loser than McCain on his own.

I do hope this works.

[AdamSmith]

The bible thumper might as well drop out now.and a combo ticket is an even surer loser than McCain on his own.

I wish I had your confidence. Hordes in the Southeast my native soil think exactly like Huckabee. Conway can vouch for the density of Bible institutes per square mile in Cook County. Orange County is Jesus radio every third station. Etc.

This is not a knock on religion. Well, maybe it is but not my point; rather that Huckabee's rise is no fluke. When the possibility of a McCain/Huckabee ticket emerged, for the first time I felt the wing of the angel of death pass over Democratic hopes for a cakewalk this fall.

[Guest epigonos]

All I know is that there is a growing number of fiscal conservative Republicans like myself who have had it with the religious right. Over the last few years we have allowed ourselves to be blackmailed by these right wing religious assholes by being told that if we won't accept their candidates they will sit home on election days and won't vote. Well I've finally come to the conclusion that it is time to fight fire with fire. From now on I want to know to which church every Republican candidate belongs and if he or she belongs to a "born again", evangelical church I'm staying home and not voting. Mike Huckabee IS NOT an econimic conservative he a former Baptist minister who wants to force his religious beliefs on the rest of us and by god I'm NOT voting for any ticket that might but him in the White House when 72 year old McCain dies in office. I won't vote for either Clinton or Obama which simply mean that I won't vote for the office of Presisdent

[Guest Conway]

Gosh, TY. Having read your reluctant posts on politics, I can only say that I wish that you'd write about politics more often. I can appreciate any arguments or statements that employ the type of logic that yours do.

The issue of illegal immigration is so complex because we, as a society, has become so reliant upon illegals to perform the labor at a fraction of the costs that citizens or legal aliens will to keep our products competitive with cheap foreign imports. The matter of employing illegals is not one where we can place the blame exclusively on the companies that hire them. We have to place the blame on ourselves as a society for demanding the value that encourages the companies that hire illegals to do so.

We've become a society that places a great deal of emphasis on value. Just today, I was in GNC buying supplements and noticed that the creatine that I was about to buy was priced around 50% more than I would have paid for a similar sized container at the corporate owned Vitamin Shoppe down the street. So, I put it down, wished the local owner of the GNC franchise a good day, and headed the the Vitamin Shoppe. Essentially, what I am doing, in the long run, is putting a locally owned franchise out of business because some big corporate store is willing to come into my neighborhood and sell at a percentage of the retail price that the local guy is is in order to eventually gain complete market share when they run him out of business.

I share that example because that is the mentality that we, as Americans, have been taught. If we want to rid our country of illegals, we better understand that there is a price to be paid, in our grocery stores, in our retail shops and in nearly every American made product that we buy, for doing that .

That's why I originally supported the Bush plan for immigration. It's impractical to think that we can round up every illegal in the US, ship them across the border and build a fence that will keep them from re-entering the US.

We need, as Raul has noted, to realize that southern North America and Central America are simply the next regions from which the next great wave of future generations of Americans is going to come from. We need to put them on real payrolls and tax them so that they contribute to the costs of the social infrastructure that will support the first couple of generations until they become stabilized contributors to the fabric of our nation.

As a GOP registered voter, McCain scares me a bit. He's far too quick to throw the blame for social and economic ills to corporate America than he is to hold individuals accountable for the bad decisions they make in life.

Huckabee could never earn my vote. He's a social conservative and a fiscal liberal. That makes him my political diametric opposite.

I really like Hillary Clinton's plan to address the coming social security debacle. In my opinion, that is a critical issue that is far more important to the large majority of US citizens than any social issue at any place on the political spectrum.

In my opinion, Obama is far too inexperienced in foreign policy and far too prone to more cowboy foreign policy positions than even GWB to ever be an effective President. While, like others, I appreciate his enthusiasm and communicative abilities, I've seen too much cowboy foreign policy over the last few years to support anyone who has expressed some of the arcane and bizarre foreign policy positions that Obama has.

Every candidate concerns me because they speak of solving our deficit problems by either raising taxes or cutting spending. No candidate seems to endorse both raising taxes and cutting spending. The recent bilateral endorsement of President Bush's tax rebate to stimulate the economy indicates to me that neither party is nearly as interested in dealing with the deficit as they are in pandering to election results.

I guess, at this point, I'm truly undecided. As a moderate to conservative libertarian type, I feel that there's no candidate expressing a platform and philosophy that's attractive to me.

[Guest BewareofNick]

All I know is that there is a growing number of fiscal conservative Republicans like myself who have had it with the religious right. Over the last few years we have allowed ourselves to be blackmailed by these right wing religious assholes by being told that if we won't accept their candidates they will sit home on election days and won't vote. Well I've finally come to the conclusion that it is time to fight fire with fire. From now on I want to know to which church every Republican candidate belongs and if he or she belongs to a "born again", evangelical church I'm staying home and not voting. Mike Huckabee IS NOT an econimic conservative he a former Baptist minister who wants to force his religious beliefs on the rest of us and by god I'm NOT voting for any ticket that might but him in the White House when 72 year old McCain dies in office. I won't vote for either Clinton or Obama which simply mean that I won't vote for the office of Presisdent

Epigonos,

All I can say is..its about time. After almost 8 years of the absolute worst president in American history, i am glad to see Republicans like you as tired as the Religious Right as we Democrats are. A McCain/Huckabee ticket is almost sure to spell disaster. The conservative media, especially Fox "News", has almost as much a hate fest going on for those two as they do for Clinton and Obama. At the beginning, Fox supported Rudy Guiliani and Fred Thompson. As their campaigns faltered Fox threw itself behind Mitt Romney. While they were doing that, Fox led a carefully orchestrated campaign against McCain, Huckabee and Ron Paul.

If Senator Clinton wins the nomination, we'll just hear more of the same hate from Rush, Hannity and Fox. McCain's platform will be "If you don't vote for me, you'll get Hillary."

If Senator Obama wins, the Republicans will have to be very careful how they attack Obama so as not to seem as racist as they usually are. Fox 'News" is especially good at subtly being racist, but too much will lead to a huge backlash. On the other hand, where Clinton is used to and can handle the Fox slime apparatus, can Obama handle it? He's pretty much been treated with kid gloves by the conservative media thus far.

To my mind, the unbeatable ticket would be Clinton/Obama.

[TotallyOz]

To my mind, the unbeatable ticket would be Clinton/Obama.

First, I have found this entire thread most interesting and fascinating. It still amazes me we have such a wide variety of opinions and issues that are of importance to us. I have always had a hard time understanding why anyone would be a Republican as I often related being Republican to the Christian Right. A little older and a little wiser, I realize there are more issues in the Republican party that one or two issues and can see some value in some of the platform.

Being a Clinton supporter from day 1, I had hoped that she would be ahead and able to claim victory by now. Not only do I not now see that coming down the road, I am now leery that it will not happen at all. Obama seems to keep pushing ahead and pulling out the victories. He is not who I would like my nominee to be and I don't think he has the experience to lead the country in foreign issues and to me, that is of paramount importance. I do think Clinton has this experience and will take us in the right direction. I would like to see her fight a bit harder and l wish the voters would see the stance on all the issues as opposed to just the sermons or prepared speeches the candidates give. Obama is not the man to lead the country. That being said, I don't really know what I'll do if he is given the nomination. After checking in on my websites each day, I check all the political blogs and press. It keeps looking darker each day for Hillary.

I grew up in the deep south and my entire family is conservative Republicans. They have voted for GW for years and this year, all the ladies have said they are going to vote for Hillary as they think it is time a woman is in the White House. They also like her views and more importantly, they were disenfranchised with GW and his party when they saw they were paying more for medicare and their life savings keep going down thanks to the policies of the last 8 years.

When I was a child, I remember marching in pro-life rallies and getting involved in the NRA. I hadn't really developed thoughts for myself at that time. Now, some 20 something years later, I can think on my own and make my own decisions. I find it interesting that many of my friends that I grew up with don't. They just keep voting for who their pastor tells them to vote for. It would be nice for those people to watch the debates instead of the PTL Club.

And what about Nader?

[Guest StuCotts]

No attempt at comprehensive declarations or ringing denunciations. Just my take on some of the points made in the posts above.

As I've said elsewhere, I think a ticket that includes both Clinton and Obama will be rejected by the electrorate at large. I'd love to be proven wrong.

That ticket might have a chance if the opposing one included Huckabee, whose strictly regional and sectarian appeal would probably work against him in a general election. I guess that means I basically agree with TPL. Still, I can't help but share Adam's reservations.

Obama is irresistible on the stump and may well end up at the head of the Dem ticket. If so, the Reps will deploy the heavy artillery and Swift Boat him. He may not have the resilience to survive all that. On the other hand, Clinton has been the focus of right-wing character assassination since her name became known outside her immediate household. She's better prepared to fight fire with fire. And it would be nice to think she'd get sizable support from women like Oz's relatives who are prepared to step away from time-hardened positions.

Like BoN, I read epigonos's post with elation. My misgiving is that he is part of too tiny a minority to make a difference ultimately.

My worst fear, based on bitter experience, is that the Dems will find a way to kill their chances, no matter how promising they look now.

[Guest epigonos]

Well at least I'm glad to see that I've made some of you guys happy. Many of my Republican friends are ready to kill me. I must remind you all that I am a Barry Goldwater Republican. Are any of you old enough to remember who he was? Just in case the answer to that question is no what it means is that I am a fiscal radical reactionary Republican and a social Libertarian as are many of my Republican friends. Though I WILL NOT vote for a Republican ticket that includes a religious right vice presidential candidate there is also no way that I will vote for either Clinton or Obama. Now with that out of the way, if I HAD to choose between Clinton and Obama it would be a no brainer. I would far rather deal with the devil I know (Clinton) than the one I don't (Obama). At least I know where she stands on most issue and I don't really have a clue where he stands.

As I see it the real danger for the Democrats is that if the Super Delegates pull the nomination out for Hilary the African Americans and college kids who have worked their asses off for Obama are going to feel cheated and stay home in November. Don't laugh this is a real possibility.

Damn I do love politics!!!!!

[Guest StuCotts]

Well at least I'm glad to see that I've made some of you guys happy. Many of my Republican friends are ready to kill me. I must remind you all that I am a Barry Goldwater Republican. Are any of you old enough to remember who he was? Just in case the answer to that question is no what it means is that I am a fiscal radical reactionary Republican and a social Libertarian as are many of my Republican friends. Though I WILL NOT vote for a Republican ticket that includes a religious right vice presidential candidate there is also no way that I will vote for either Clinton or Obama. Now with that out of the way, if I HAD to choose between Clinton and Obama it would be a no brainer. I would far rather deal with the devil I know (Clinton) than the one I don't (Obama). At least I know where she stands on most issue and I don't really have a clue where he stands.

As I see it the real danger for the Democrats is that if the Super Delegates pull the nomination out for Hilary the African Americans and college kids who have worked their asses off for Obama are going to feel cheated and stay home in November. Don't laugh this is a real possibility.

Damn I do love politics!!!!!

So who's laughing? The possibility you envision is real. If their vessel of election doesn't get the candidacy, most or all Obama enthusiasts may well stomp off in a huff and spend election day pouting instead of voting.

Another possibility is that Hillary and Obama will stay more or less nose-to-nose right through the primaries. At some point things will turn acrimonious, then, inevitably, internecine. The two will harm themselves, each other and the party's chances.

There are surely more possibilities, but I have no desire to dig for them. Never underestimate the relentlessness of the Dems' death wish. That's what I was hinting at in the last paragraph of my post above.

I'm glad somebody likes politics. All they do for me is trouble my inborn spiritual serenity.

[Guest Conway]

Personally, it seems to me that the relationship between the Clinton Campaign and black voters and black leadership is already creating just that type of strain. Unusual, considering that she's the wife of the man known among the African American community as America's first black President.

I would think that most social and fiscal liberals would be quite happy with McCain. On the other hand, GWB's recent statements regarding McCain being a "real conservative" probably don't sit very well with fiscal conservatives for whom GWB has left a lot to be desired.

[Guest JCinVegas]

This post is prompted by who do I vote for in the VA primaries on Tuesday. All of the candidates from both parties, imo, have several drawbacks. It is so disappointing that neither party has a candidate that I want to vote for in the presidential election. How sad and disapointing that this is the best that either party can offer.

McCain? Sheesh, imo, that guy is a psycho, warped by all those years spent in the Hanoi Hilton. Not to mention the fact that he is from Arizona, that, from my experience, is the only state still living in the 19th century, and as such, I would never vote for someone from Arizona.

Hillary Clinton? Totally failed at her attempt for universal health care during Bill's first term, and from all accounts was a nasty, abusive bitch to her staff, while attempting to do so. And now her policy will be to force payroll deductions from the middle class and working poor to finance that? It was the Clinton administration that denied gay rights by enacting the "don't ask, don't tell" military bullshit. It was also the Clinton administration that passed NAFTA, putting many thousands of Americans in the manufacturing industries out of work and destroying 80+ years of accomplishments by the labor unions, devastatining cities like Cleveland, Gary, Detroit and Pittsburgh. It was also the Clinton administration that expanded the H1B visa allocations that allowed thousands of IT people to come from India to the U.S., keeping down the wages of Americans in the IT field.

Clinton opened the gates to the abuses of the Bush administration, as far as H1B Visa and outsourcing! Time for a change!!!

Obama? I want to vote for Obama! I like his stance on outsourcing jobs from America to overseas. I like his thoughts on health care. I love his charisma and his hope for America. I hate his stance on illegal immigrants (just like McCain's). I say NO to amnesty for illegal immigrants, as I want them to be rounded up and deported, as they are illegal, and take jobs away from Americans! I don't like his condescending attiitude on gay marriage. I would vote for him, if he changed his stance on those issues, otherwise not!

I vote for you Southern! Southern for President in '08. More damn sense than anybody on MER or running for office.