Is Pattaya fading as a gay sex paradise ?

[Guest Hedda]

You're probably all familiar with that Gladys Knight rendition of "the Way we Were", where she asks whether the "good old days" were really that good and whether things like the grass was really greener then.

 

Well, since spending much more time away from Thailand for the last six months, I've been asking myself that same question about Thailand, and especially Pattaya, lately. No doubt this town is getting a lot bigger every day, but does bigger mean better in any way that's meaningfull for an expat ?

 

Let's begin with the one thing that brings most gay men here in the first place : Thai men. It's my impression, based on more years at the beach and bars than I care to count, that the calibre of the Thai guys you find cruising the beach or dancing in the bars these days, is nowhere as impressive as it was 10 years ago.

 

From a purely physical standpoint, it used to be easy to find a handsome young man almost anywhere you went. Now, you can spend a whole day at the beach, or travel from one bar to another for hours, and not find a single guy that really turns you on. Have i just become too jaded or demanding, or has there been a noticeable decline in the trade ?

 

There are a lot of other aspects of Pattaya 2006 that don't seem to compare favorably to what things were like, or seemed to be like, as recently as five years ago. For one thing, the grass was certainly greener back then, because most of it around Pattaya has now been paved over.

 

Ignoring the obvious decline of the natural ecology here, I still have to ask myself: Have I just gotten old and bored with something that once seemed so exciting, novel and unique, or is our dear Pattaya, the thing that old timers used to call a gay paradise, but which we affectionately labelled "shitsville" so many years ago, actually fading like chang dung in the tropical sun ?

[TotallyOz]

I don't think it is fading. I do think that the more time one spends there, the more picky they become. I know this is my case. When I first visisted, I could find 20 boys in every bar I liked. Now, I am luckly if I find one. I don't think the boys have changed as much as I have.

 

Also, the beach has been dead. I went many days and it totally sucked. I didn't find one guy I liked there. It seems they are all home and not in Pattaya.

[Guest xstreamlove]

I also am wondering if Pattaya is losing its luster and is it the place to be compared to other places in Thailand such as Chaing Mai, Phuket and Hua Hin. As Hedda has mentioned in this post is Pattaya losing its charm? With crime on the rise and the beaches fading away just to name a few. Maybe some of you who live there can advise me if Pattaya is slowly losing its magical touch as the place to be for a gay farang.

[Gaybutton]

I don't think Pattaya has lost its allure at all. I have learned that when living here permanently you become used to what you once saw as awesome and fascinating, to the point you begin to take things, including the boys, for granted. I think it all depends on your point of view and how long you are able to stay here. There is a big difference between being here for only a couple of weeks per year and living here permanently.

 

I remember, when I was only able to be here for short periods of time. When I would see a boy I liked if he was with another "farang" I was disappointed. Now, I couldn't care less. I know that the "farang" will soon go home and the boy will be available. If not, so what? There are plenty more where he came from.

 

Back then, I would feel as though I missed something if I wasn't in the bars every night. Now I can hardly remember the last time I even bothered going to the bars. For me, the bars have become 'same old, same old.' I have plenty of other things I'd rather do and, believe me, when you do the same thing night after night, knowing you can go any time, it becomes dull. For me, the only difference between one bar and the next is which heads are on top of which bodies.

 

Over time, owing to the sheer availability of boys, I tend to be far more selective than I was in the past. Boys I once would have done about anything to get are now ho-hum to me. I hardly even give them a second glance anymore. I suppose that's because I know I don't have to.

 

It also helps living with my boyfriend. To me, he is more attractive than any other boys I have seen anyhow, and he is far better at what I like than any other boy I have ever met. So, what's the point of variety when you are perfectly satisfied with what you already have? While it's true that he can be plenty of trouble, just like any of these boys can be, I still would much rather be with him than without him.

 

I much prefer to just stay at home, doing something like watching a movie together. Going to a bar, watching boys just standing there doing nothing more than halfheartedly moving a knee back and forth, ordering drinks that are not any good and I don't really want in the first place, listening to the usual "What you name?" "Where you come from?" "how long you stay in Pattaya?" along with the mama-san pointing toward the boys as if my eyes don't work well enough to see for myself, with the music blaring so loudly that my ears are pounding long after leaving the bar is all no longer my idea of a good time. The bars are simply not my idea of a big thrill anymore, although I do enjoy going out to the bars once in a while. Maybe once or twice per month. But every day? Forget it.

 

I've heard more than one "farang" say, "The only reason to live here is for the sex." I disagree with that. I think that's quite a narrow minded point of view.

 

Before moving here, I really did think I was going to want to be in the bars or otherwise among the boys all the time. But now, finding boys no longer requires the bars. There are plenty on the beaches, and plenty just about everywhere else I go. I have had boys come on to me virtually everywhere, ranging from waiters in restaurants to boys at gas stations. I know I could have any one of them any time I want.

 

That very fact is part of what still makes Pattaya a gay paradise. I can literally pick and choose which boys I want. Try that back in the USA.

 

When I first started coming to Thailand, of course my main interest was the boys. Now, over time, my reasons for wanting to remain here are different. I still like the availability of boys, but I also like the affordability. I couldn't possibly have afforded to retire where I came from, but here it's not a problem. While I used to go to the beach primarily because I enjoyed looking at all the boys, now I go because I enjoy being with my friends even more than looking at the boys. Of course, if a boy who is very much my type wanders by, he definitely gets my full attention.

 

I also like being here because I like the Thai people. I like the lifestyle. I like the challenges of dealing with day-to-day life without being fluent in the language. I enjoy trying to figure out "Thai logic" and just about all the other seemingly incomprehensible modes of thinking. I like the food and the enormous variety of fabulous restaurants at such affordable prices. I am much happier here than I ever was back in Florida.

 

There is one more reason, one that supercedes all the rest. I like being here because for the first time in my life I am able to be who I am and what I am without fear of living with the gay intolerance that still persists in the USA. All of my life, in the USA, I had to live in the closet. Now that I can live out of the closet here in Thailand, I certainly have no desire to return to the USA and step right back into the closet again.

[Guest Dylan]

B)

I don't think Pattaya has lost its allure at all. I have learned that when living here permanently you become used to what you once saw as awesome and fascinating, to the point you begin to take things, including the boys, for granted. I think it all depends on your point of view and how long you are able to stay here. There is a big difference between being here for only a couple of weeks per year and living here permanently.

 

I remember, when I was only able to be here for short periods of time. When I would see a boy I liked if he was with another "farang" I was disappointed. Now, I couldn't care less. I know that the "farang" will soon go home and the boy will be available. If not, so what? There are plenty more where he came from.

 

Back then, I would feel as though I missed something if I wasn't in the bars every night. Now I can hardly remember the last time I even bothered going to the bars. For me, the bars have become 'same old, same old.' I have plenty of other things I'd rather do and, believe me, when you do the same thing night after night, knowing you can go any time, it becomes dull. For me, the only difference between one bar and the next is which heads are on top of which bodies.

 

Over time, owing to the sheer availability of boys, I tend to be far more selective than I was in the past. Boys I once would have done about anything to get are now ho-hum to me. I hardly even give them a second glance anymore. I suppose that's because I know I don't have to.

 

It also helps living with my boyfriend. To me, he is more attractive than any other boys I have seen anyhow, and he is far better at what I like than any other boy I have ever met. So, what's the point of variety when you are perfectly satisfied with what you already have? While it's true that he can be plenty of trouble, just like any of these boys can be, I still would much rather be with him than without him.

 

I much prefer to just stay at home, doing something like watching a movie together. Going to a bar, watching boys just standing there doing nothing more than halfheartedly moving a knee back and forth, ordering drinks that are not any good and I don't really want in the first place, listening to the usual "What you name?" "Where you come from?" "how long you stay in Pattaya?" along with the mama-san pointing toward the boys as if my eyes don't work well enough to see for myself, with the music blaring so loudly that my ears are pounding long after leaving the bar is all no longer my idea of a good time. The bars are simply not my idea of a big thrill anymore, although I do enjoy going out to the bars once in a while. Maybe once or twice per month. But every day? Forget it.

 

I've heard more than one "farang" say, "The only reason to live here is for the sex." I disagree with that. I think that's quite a narrow minded point of view.

 

Before moving here, I really did think I was going to want to be in the bars or otherwise among the boys all the time. But now, finding boys no longer requires the bars. There are plenty on the beaches, and plenty just about everywhere else I go. I have had boys come on to me virtually everywhere, ranging from waiters in restaurants to boys at gas stations. I know I could have any one of them any time I want.

 

That very fact is part of what still makes Pattaya a gay paradise. I can literally pick and choose which boys I want. Try that back in the USA.

 

When I first started coming to Thailand, of course my main interest was the boys. Now, over time, my reasons for wanting to remain here are different. I still like the availability of boys, but I also like the affordability. I couldn't possibly have afforded to retire where I came from, but here it's not a problem. While I used to go to the beach primarily because I enjoyed looking at all the boys, now I go because I enjoy being with my friends even more than looking at the boys. Of course, if a boy who is very much my type wanders by, he definitely gets my full attention.

 

I also like being here because I like the Thai people. I like the lifestyle. I like the challenges of dealing with day-to-day life without being fluent in the language. I enjoy trying to figure out "Thai logic" and just about all the other seemingly incomprehensible modes of thinking. I like the food and the enormous variety of fabulous restaurants at such affordable prices. I am much happier here than I ever was back in Florida.

 

There is one more reason, one that supercedes all the rest. I like being here because for the first time in my life I am able to be who I am and what I am without fear of living with the gay intolerance that still persists in the USA. All of my life, in the USA, I had to live in the closet. Now that I can live out of the closet here in Thailand, I certainly have no desire to return to the USA and step right back into the closet again.

 

 

B)

 

Extremely well said, Gaybutton.

I have never been to Pattaya before, but will be spending a week there in August.

But I do get what you were talking about, and I agree with everything.

Well said!!

 

[Guest Hedda]

With due respect to GayButton's comments above, I don't think there's much doubt that the young men dancing in the bars, or cruising the beach today, are not the same quality or quantity you routinely saw in places like Pattaya ten years ago. It's a matter of simple economics, numbers . . . and personal observation.

 

Thailand is a more prosperous country today and there are lots more jobs paying higher wages in places like the auto industry, retail outlets like Lotus and Carrefour or the expanded tourist infrastructure, all of which drain the pool of young men who used to see the sex trade as their only way off the farm.

 

I wonder if the more upscale Bangkok market draws the better-looking men away from less affluent places like Pattaya, especially in a shrinking labor pool. It's also possible that, as the gay farang expat community grows larger in Thailand, more of the better looking young men in the bars are being "retired" by farangs who want a live-in, non-bar boyfriend. The romance may not last, but it does tend to thin the top-shelf merchandise available on any given night.

 

Even if prosperity were not draining the labor pool, I don't think there's much doubt, based on personal observation, that the quality of young men you see today in the bars or beach doesn't measure up to "the good old days." That's because most bars will hire just about any one who applies for a gogo job these days, especially during off-season. As a result, the number of guys with mediocre faces and/or bodies who appear regularly on stage in Pattaya seems to be increasing.

 

My idea of a gay paradise is not a place where a significant number of bars feature bodies that are either anorexic she-males or overweight candidates for the chubby-chaser crowd. We may be old and past our sexual prime, but too many kids these days dancing on stage are sporting an anatomy that's filled with articial sweeteners like silicone, above and below the belt.

 

Is there much doubt that the simple "Issan country boy" look, that can be so appealing to take the edge off commercial sex, is amost extinct among today's bar boys. Too many young men behave like crusty veterans of the sex trade, with such an attitude that you might think they were paying you. And the percentage of straight men, who spend their time onstage oggling the occasional female customer, seems larger than ever. Most of these straight guys don't have a clue how to even mimic the joy of gay sex in bed.

 

Obviously, as some comments above suggest, the lifestyle you choose to follow here will dictate your impressions of whether Pattaya's status as a "gay paradise" has changed. Older men who see Pattaya as a cheap place to retire with one young man who seems to satisfy their needs think they have found their paradise, at least while it lasts.

 

But putting all your eggs in one basket can be risky business, and these boards are usually full of tales of paradise lost. Perhaps the high incidence of failed relationships here between older farangs and young thais suggests that paradise is a state of mind and nothing more.

 

It seems to me that someone who says he loves to stay at home and watch movies and "can hardly remember the last time I even bothered going to the bars." is hardly in a position to judge if Pattaya's status as a gay sex paradise is fading.

 

I enjoy the bars and frequent them on a regular basis. My experience tells me that it's not just the ocean crop of tuna that's become endangered in this part of the planet. Things are changing in the Pattaya gay sex scene, and perhaps not for the better. Just my opinion, of course.

 

___________________

 

PS: I don't pay for the printing bill here, but I couldn't help but notice than some posters seem compelled to reprint an entire post in introducing their response. I don't know about you, but that strikes me as unnecessary.

 

It's so easy when you intend to reply to a post to delete the previous post that first appears in your Reply box, and makes only your reply appear for much easier reading.

[Gaybutton]

I don't think there's much doubt that the young men dancing in the bars, or cruising the beach today, are not the same quality or quantity you routinely saw in places like Pattaya ten years ago.

 

Hedda, I'm not sure what you mean by "quality." I can certainly agree with what you say about quantity. There are fewer bars today than there were ten years ago. Also, there are many more restrictions on bars today than there were ten years ago. There are also a lot less "farang" customers. That probably accounts for the lesser number of boys.

 

But when you say "quality," I'm assuming you are talking about physical attractiveness. If I am correct about that, isn't that in the eye of the beholder? I am well aware that the majority of gay men go for the hunky, muscle boy types. I know I am in the minority, but that type is just about the least attractive to me. As a matter of fact, for me, that type is a major turn-off. For me, the boy-next-door type is far more attractive and there are plenty of those types around.

 

What I have observed is that a great many more boys in Pattaya are the lady-boy type; many more than there were ten years ago. For whatever reason, that seems to be a big thing among the boys these days. I don't have a clue as to why, but that's what I'm seeing. It ranges from the slightly feminine type to the flaming, over-feminine, types that have had breast implants or are taking female hormones.

 

Is it that sort of thing you mean by "quality?"

[Guest Hedda]

Quality is what made Bo Derrick a 10 ! It's what makes most gay men drool over Brad Pitt and turn the page quickly on Woody Allen. It's not type, which is what you are talking about when you compare hunks to lady-boys; it's what the show biz folks call "star quality", regardless of type.

 

I don't know why the bars seem to have far less "star quality" boys these days, be they hunks, ravishing ladyboys or guys from next door. Too many hunks have too many pounds, usually all in the wrong places and too may ladyboys have become charicatures of twiggy sporting silicon tits.

 

No doubt, I have become more picky as my seniority as an expat here grows, but that doesn't explain what I see as a noticeable decline in the general physical attractiveness of the men in bars. I just hope its cyclical, like George Bush thinks global warming is, and that I'll still be around when the next generations of 10's shows up.

 

 

[Gaybutton]

I take what I see in the mirror into consideration before I cast too much judgment on the looks of the boys. Sometimes it's hard for me to believe any of these boys would be interested in me, money or not. What can I say?

 

A 10 is still in the eye of the beholder, but I do concede that I too see a lot less of them lately.

 

Still, I can't help but think about something that was said in "Fiddler on the Roof," when the matchmaker was going to set up an ugly man with a half-blind girl. The matchmaker said, "The way she sees and the way he looks, it's a perfect match."

 

[Guest Hedda]

I am reminded of Justice Stewart's remark about pornography: "I may not be able to define what pornography is, but I know it when i see it." The same rule applies to beauty and star quality. It may not be in your mirror any more, and you still can't define it in the abstract, but you know it when you see it strutting by. Maybe the world's just getting uglier, us included.

[Gaybutton]

It may not be in your mirror any more

 

In my case it never was . . .

[Guest mauRICE]

Gee, Hedda goes to a go-go bar and finds...crusty old prostitutes. What is the world coming to?

 

In the seven years that I've been visiting the commercial sex venues (although less frequently these days), I too have noticed the decline in the number of boys that I would consider attractive.

 

Rest assured that there hasn't been a mutation in the Thai genetic make up in the last twenty years bar, perhaps, a heightened numerical literacy from the deft use of ATMs. Khun Mae and Khun Paw in Isaarn and the impoverished North are still producing beauties, not ugly ducklings. However, as a result of budget air travel and greater exchange of information through the Internet, the swan-Leks have now spread their wings to upmarket establishments in Bangkok and neighbouring countries . In Kuala Lumpur alone, there are at least twenty naughty massage centres staffed mainly by Thai and mainland Chinese boys.

 

Some of the stars can also be found in a small but stable number of karaoke bars in Bangkok and Hat Yai that primarily cater to women. I

[Guest Hedda]

"Let

[Guest ear wig]

This is all you ned to know about gay Arabs

 

http://www.aardvarktravel.net/chat/viewtopic.php?t=7151

[Guest namjai]

It is "happy happy mak mak" to me. I have never had a problem seeing guys that turn me on in Pattaya. Yes, the dancing (?) is not the same, but the banter is. "Me love you long time" is still bs, but nice to hear!

[Guest Dosom`e]

I don't think Pattaya has lost its allure at all. I have learned that when living here permanently you become used to what you once saw as awesome and fascinating, to the point you begin to take things, including the boys, for granted. I think it all depends on your point of view and how long you are able to stay here. There is a big difference between being here for only a couple of weeks per year and living here permanently.

 

I remember, when I was only able to be here for short periods of time. When I would see a boy I liked if he was with another "farang" I was disappointed. Now, I couldn't care less. I know that the "farang" will soon go home and the boy will be available. If not, so what? There are plenty more where he came from.

 

Back then, I would feel as though I missed something if I wasn't in the bars every night. Now I can hardly remember the last time I even bothered going to the bars. For me, the bars have become 'same old, same old.' I have plenty of other things I'd rather do and, believe me, when you do the same thing night after night, knowing you can go any time, it becomes dull. For me, the only difference between one bar and the next is which heads are on top of which bodies.

 

Over time, owing to the sheer availability of boys, I tend to be far more selective than I was in the past. Boys I once would have done about anything to get are now ho-hum to me. I hardly even give them a second glance anymore. I suppose that's because I know I don't have to.

 

It also helps living with my boyfriend. To me, he is more attractive than any other boys I have seen anyhow, and he is far better at what I like than any other boy I have ever met. So, what's the point of variety when you are perfectly satisfied with what you already have? While it's true that he can be plenty of trouble, just like any of these boys can be, I still would much rather be with him than without him.

 

I much prefer to just stay at home, doing something like watching a movie together. Going to a bar, watching boys just standing there doing nothing more than halfheartedly moving a knee back and forth, ordering drinks that are not any good and I don't really want in the first place, listening to the usual "What you name?" "Where you come from?" "how long you stay in Pattaya?" along with the mama-san pointing toward the boys as if my eyes don't work well enough to see for myself, with the music blaring so loudly that my ears are pounding long after leaving the bar is all no longer my idea of a good time. The bars are simply not my idea of a big thrill anymore, although I do enjoy going out to the bars once in a while. Maybe once or twice per month. But every day? Forget it.

 

I've heard more than one "farang" say, "The only reason to live here is for the sex." I disagree with that. I think that's quite a narrow minded point of view.

 

Before moving here, I really did think I was going to want to be in the bars or otherwise among the boys all the time. But now, finding boys no longer requires the bars. There are plenty on the beaches, and plenty just about everywhere else I go. I have had boys come on to me virtually everywhere, ranging from waiters in restaurants to boys at gas stations. I know I could have any one of them any time I want.

 

That very fact is part of what still makes Pattaya a gay paradise. I can literally pick and choose which boys I want. Try that back in the USA.

 

When I first started coming to Thailand, of course my main interest was the boys. Now, over time, my reasons for wanting to remain here are different. I still like the availability of boys, but I also like the affordability. I couldn't possibly have afforded to retire where I came from, but here it's not a problem. While I used to go to the beach primarily because I enjoyed looking at all the boys, now I go because I enjoy being with my friends even more than looking at the boys. Of course, if a boy who is very much my type wanders by, he definitely gets my full attention.

 

I also like being here because I like the Thai people. I like the lifestyle. I like the challenges of dealing with day-to-day life without being fluent in the language. I enjoy trying to figure out "Thai logic" and just about all the other seemingly incomprehensible modes of thinking. I like the food and the enormous variety of fabulous restaurants at such affordable prices. I am much happier here than I ever was back in Florida.

 

There is one more reason, one that supercedes all the rest. I like being here because for the first time in my life I am able to be who I am and what I am without fear of living with the gay intolerance that still persists in the USA. All of my life, in the USA, I had to live in the closet. Now that I can live out of the closet here in Thailand, I certainly have no desire to return to the USA and step right back into the closet again.

 

[Guest pete1969]

I've had several conversations here in Phuket where the boys suggest that Pattaya is becoming the last choice of place to work for Thailand's gay sex workers. They tell me the prevailing thought is go to BKK to make the most money (more Asians, better tips, better chance at more than one off per night), and go to Phuket to snare a rich "husband" (more wealthy tourists on longer stays and far less retired expats). Even Chaing Mai and Samui are thought to be better choices because of less competition and almost all tourists.

 

I've also heard a couple of boys talk about the money to be made in the KL massage shops (tips of 3,000 up). However, this is a short term or low season solution for many as most don't like to be too long gone from LOS. I've heard of the great rise in women customers and places catering exclusively to them, but most boys still say that women don't tip as well, and there is a small chance of finding a woman patron.

 

The Internet will only grow as a tool for farang and Thais to meet. I think it is a tougher way for the boys to earn a living (they have to patiently "work" a customer over weeks and months, and many Thais are not built for this type of seduction). I think the boys who do best are probably the ones who use the Internet chat rooms and message boards as their stage in order to get a customer for that same night, or the ones who use them to communicate with a number of fish they have already hooked in real time encounters.

 

Of course, this is all speculation in regards to Pattaya's decline (if there is a decline). I will say that I've heard from a great number of sources (both Thai and farang) that Pattaya has by far the lowest tip scale for the boys of any place in LOS. So, it makes sense that a boy who wants to sell his body and has any business sense would choose the markets where his wares would get the best price.

 

Pete

[Guest Hedda]

In other words, Pete dear, Pattaya is cheap !

[Gaybutton]

In my opinion Pattaya is fading, but really hasn't lost its allure. I believe the primary reason Pattaya is fading is the distinct drop in numbers of gay "farang" customers. When I first started coming to Thailand the number of bars in Pattaya was increasing. It was common to see a new bar open and succeed. I remember bars in Pattaya such as Moonlight, Playboy, Boys Studio, Charlie Boys, and a few others. Soi Day-Night was up and coming with several go-go bars, such as Lek's and Fantasea, along with a few others. They're all gone now.

 

Now there are no go-go bars at all on Soi Day-Night, although a few gay host bars and gay karaokes are still trying to make a go of it. Other bars have changed hands and changed names several times and are still changing names and changing hands to this very day.

 

I also remember when I would go into a bar, no matter which one, there was always a crowd. Now most of the time the bars are empty or have only a few customers. The Pattayaland, Soi 3 bars usually still have a good crowd, though. Certainly Throb and Boyz Boyz Boyz usually have plenty of customers.

 

Jomtien Complex seems to be an up and coming area, but still struggling along. There is certainly potential there.

 

Punya, from Howard's Hotel, is about to try his hand at a Babylon-style sauna.

 

I hope the wheel is turning for the better. Pattaya can become the gay paradise it once was. Unfortunately, factors such as the poor present exchange rates, higher airfares, higher "off" fees, SARS, Bird Flu, the insistence that venues close at 1:00 AM, the soaring crime rate, the more puritanical restrictions on what kinds of shows can be presented, restrictions on what the boys can and cannot wear, last year's severe drought, and other factors apparently are all acting to cause gay tourists to find other places to go.

 

I think Pattaya is still the best place to go, but I don't think very many people who have been around for a long time would dispute the fact that today the gay scene just cannot compare to what it was ten years ago.

 

Still, there are plenty of boys around and prices are still less expensive than most gay venues within Thailand and probably the rest of the world. In my view, Pattaya is still a gay paradise, but not the gay paradise it used to be. I hope it turns around and improves rather than become "Paradise Lost."

 

I think it really all depends on whether Pattaya can re-attract the tourist numbers. As we are now seeing, gay venues end up going out of business sooner or later if the customers don't come.

[Guest LoeplohandNalac]

Fading or not ?

 

We are moving out..away

 

Yesterday we bought 145 Rai of prime river front land in Udon. ( 20.000 baht for one Rai) so we will start our own gay town. our own massage shop,our own gogo bar,our own gay restaurant.

Soon we will open also our own message board and inform you about the inns and outs from Udons new gay resort.

 

So if U gays are looking for us....we will be back to Nature again...Pattaya is to commercial for us.

 

 

Thanks for your kind attention and see U soon at our riverside location in Udon.