Tipping; Once Again

[Guest wowpow]

The USA is a tipping culture and many Americans are terrified of being though mean or frightened of being embarassed by pushy staff demands.

 

For instance, last evening with a couple of friends I went to Dulio's at the Ramada on Suriwong. The staff, including the manager, were a disgrace and certainly put the dampers on out post concert high. We only had pasta and a couple of bottles of Pinot Grigio. The bill came including a 10% service charge. My American friends insisted on leaving more so that the service charge and tip came to 400 baht on a bill of about 3300 baht. I was called mean for refusing to join them and pointing out the dreadful service. The food was not much cop either. None of us will be returning there.

 

It is rather sad as when the place opened, best part of a year ago, the food and service were excellent.

[Gaybutton]

Cheap is in the eye of the beholder, GB.

Am I a cheapskate in your book for paying what they wanted?

 

That's right. It's in the eye of the beholder. In my eye, what I am beholding is a group of people who are coming up with every reason they can think of for paying far less than the going rate. I can only repeat what I've already said . . . these boys are the reason they come to Thailand and those same boys are the very people they're trying to use to save a few dollars. In my opinion, that really stinks.

 

As for your question as to whether I think you are a cheapskate, the answer is no. I do not think you are a cheapskate at all. You asked them how much they want. They told you and you paid the price they asked. I see nothing wrong at all with that.

[Guest noy9000]

payless: I don't quite understand the need for you to pick up any fight at all, since you took opinions personally.

 

Trying to say I'm dictating how much you have to pay is absolutely ridiculous. I'm not in a position to dictate anything. If you want to be cheap, there's nothing much I can do about it, is there? You might at least admit that you want to get by with giving these boys as little as possible while satisfying you're own personal lust.

 

Like I said, try any which way you want to try to justify it, but from where I sit it's nothing but giving yourself an excuse to be cheap and being proud of yourself for it.

 

You do try and dictate by trying to insult the people who might put a contrary view to you.

 

I think your deliberate smear of my anonymous cyber character is disgraceful and merits an immediate apology from you.

 

How ironic was you trying to demand an apology, when you said this:

I think you are Jai Dee too as I know that boy will now be so happy he will go with me for free...

 

For any farangs who spend so much money to fly in to Bangkok and tries to get away with giving as little as possible to the boys - It's cheapskate.

 

There has been a distinction made, in case you haven't noticed. Those 'who fly here to save money for cheap sex', and residents, (including those who live here giving smaller tips). I believe the only angry thing, I heard from him about locals paying less - is when another person is 'showing off' that he's getting away with it.

 

I totally agree with GB's point of view on this subject of tipping, and his input has always been 'pay what you're comfortable with' - the rest are opinions & recommendations. Fair & square.

 

I am still of the age and of the looks that I probably do not to need to pay for sex.

I think you are Jai Dee too as I know that boy will now be so happy he will go with me for free...

I spend probably about 50.000 every month on dining and drinks and tips to the boys. (I almost never off a boy as I don't need to.)

 

I'm still wondering, how the sex is free as you'd claimed. As for insults, I didn't see any insults directed to you by anyone yet. But I'll start.

 

Here's the first: Stupid. Go slap yourself (or re-edit all the clashes between your own words).

 

I can tut tut and say 200 is too much. I can watch them look down on me.

 

Here's the second: Cheapskate. For someone who spends 50,000THB on unneccessary dining, drinks and tipping to the boys (because you're in fine condition for free sex) to argue about 200THB.

 

Here's the third: Old (I'll qualify to call you this, I'm sure. Argue only if you're in your early twenties). It is really stupid to use this to attack anyone, it's only natural that we'll age.

 

I spend 1,000THB per month going to Morgue, El! Yin Yo weekly. I get guys to my apartment, and the sex has been free (by cruising) since (I've been here for 5 months, I'd only paid when I'm still foreign).

 

Oh. Just STFU.

[Guest aot87]

I expect to be called a cheap scate , i come to pattaya at most twice a year

and my rates are short time 1200bht and long time 1500 bht plus breakfast and taxi home, Some farang save all year to afford to visit thailand , not all have money to waste

[Guest Kregger]

I continue to disagree with GB's judgemental LABELING of people.

So people fly to Pattaya for cheap sex. And they want the sex to be cheap.

Duh!

 

I have travelled to New York, London, LA, and SF ONLY for the live theater. When I get there, I go straight for the HALF PRICE TICKET BOOTHS. Yes, I spent alot for the airfare and hotel, DAMN STRAIGHT I am looking for a bargain on the THEATER TICKETS, the REASON I came.

 

Whats the difference?

Am I a cheapskate for saving money on theater tickets?

I think I am smart consumer and not a fool.

So I continue to differ.

Boy prostitutes are not angels. (I know. I USED TO BE ONE.) They are selling a service just like a maid. If the two maids can clean your room just as well, and you can get the same service for half off, why exactly wouldn't you? Are you saying maids and other service people are not worthy of overpaying, but somehow prostitutes are?

Of course, I agree, a fair market price must be paid and nobody maid, doctor, or whore should do work against their free will. But the attitude of GB is almost a mild kind of deification. And frankly I spell a strong whiff of AMERICAN GUILT. Why? Because they are young? Do you give a big tip to the young guy at the 7 11?

[Guest pete1969]

I've said before that prostitutes are paid widely divergent wages the world over. The same is true in Thailand. I can pay 10,000 bt to a Western prostitute in BKK, and I know of a brothel in Lopburi where 300 bt is thought of as a good tip (my BF loves this place in Lopburi by the way).

 

Many people come to Thailand for the reasonably-priced prositutes and the vast and user-friendly infrastructure that supports the sex trade.

 

IMO, I think what almost everyone in this thread is saying is that one just needs to know the going rate for any given area or establishment(or negotiate it with the guy beforehand) and pay it. Pretty simple. You might get a discount off the going rate if you are a regular or if the guy is in need of a customer that night. Fair enough.

 

Pete

[Guest pepperami]

If you want him to stick with you, that calls for a new arrangement.

 

Gaybutton, thanks for your reply. Could you offer some guidelines on this?

 

If it is a boy you have "offed" and taken to your room, then if he gives you a massage along with everything else, and if it's a good one and lasts around a half hour or so, then I'd increase his tip by 200 baht.

 

What would you tip at the parlour? I've been for two massages before. Each time, I was confused because the suggested minimum tip was about 500 baht, which seemed low to me. I tipped better then I would have done for a bar boy - my rationale being that massage included, the masseur had worked harder for it.

 

I am happy to pay the accepted "standard" and will tip extra where deserved. I want to pay what is fair and what is right. I'm not interested in bargin hunting, but at the same time - I don't want to be taken advantage of because I am relatively inexperienced.

 

I am sure it is more fool me, but I think I am inclined to tip the same whether the guy is a freelancer, from Boyztown, Sunee or the beach. If a guys selling me his ass, I don't see why the fact that he may work at one bar or another should affect the premium on that.

[Guest noy9000]

1.

I expect to be called a cheap scate , i come to pattaya at most twice a year

and my rates are short time 1200bht and long time 1500 bht plus breakfast and taxi home, Some farang save all year to afford to visit thailand , not all have money to waste.

 

2.

Are you saying maids and other service people are not worthy of overpaying, but somehow prostitutes are?

 

I believe the 'cheap skate' is refering to those who spend a large sum of money to fly over, live in fancy hotels & dine in fancy restuarants and to walk around telling people that they're paying 'below' the 'standard guideline price 1,000/ 1,500thb'.

 

This standard price is not recommended by GB himself; it's the exact sum of money most local Thais are paying in the go-go or host bars, it's also what's expected from you for minimum.

 

Why is the attention on 'over-paying', when GB's point is that some people are 'under-paying', (below the standard recommended)?

 

->

what I am beholding is a group of people who are coming up with every reason they can think of for paying far less than the going rate.

[Gaybutton]

Gaybutton, thanks for your reply. Could you offer some guidelines on this?

 

What would you tip at the parlour? I've been for two massages before.

 

If a boy stays with you overnight, then usually he goes home in the morning. Often, however, his customer likes him well enough to want him to stay with him that day, several days, or even for the duration of his holiday. When I said that calls for a new arrangement, it depends on what you and the boy are willing to do. You would be expected to pay his "off" fees at the bar if his stay with you will last into his working hours and expected to tip him for the time he spends with you.

 

Some "farang" do things such as taking the boy to expensive restaurants, buying clothes for him, buying a mobile phone for him, etc, and they think that constitutes his tip. All of that is very nice if that's what one wants to do, but the boy still expects to receive his tip money for each day he's with you. After all, that's why he's with you.

 

If you want him to stay with you for several days, I don't see anything wrong with making an arrangement with the boy, but let him know how much you are willing to pay and let him be the one who decides to accept or reject it. Only recently one boy I know spent ten days with a "farang." The "farang" treated him very nicely, taking him to expensive restaurants, to various shows, bought some clothes and shoes for him, etc. At the end of the ten days that "farang" gave the boy 500 baht, thinking he was being generous in light of all he had spent already. Meanwhile the boy had been expecting between 800 to 1000 baht per day. It was near the end of the month. While he had a good time with the "farang" he was left high and dry financially and couldn't pay his rent.

 

The massage parlors are somewhat of a different story and the expectations are different from the expectations in the bars. Most of the gay massage parlors suggest 500 baht as a minimal tip for the boy, assuming the massage has a "happy ending." You ought to give the boy at least that much. If he was particularly good, then you might want to consider giving him a few hundred baht more.

[Guest Kregger]

GB,

I totally agree that man who gave 500 baht for several days is a TOTAL CAD! Outrageous! Now, that is sex slavery. Amazing that man like that didn't consider the boy has a life and expenses of HIS OWN.

[Guest buaseng]

Some "farang" do things such as taking the boy to expensive restaurants, buying clothes for him, buying a mobile phone for him, etc, and they think that constitutes his tip. All of that is very nice if that's what one wants to do, but the boy still expects to receive his tip money for each day he's with you. After all, that's why he's with you.

 

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

 

Only recently one boy I know spent ten days with a "farang." The "farang" treated him very nicely, taking him to expensive restaurants, to various shows, bought some clothes and shoes for him, etc. At the end of the ten days that "farang" gave the boy 500 baht, thinking he was being generous in light of all he had spent already. Meanwhile the boy had been expecting between 800 to 1000 baht per day.

GB makes a very good point. I have found from overhearing conversations and casual observation that some visitors are not aware, or choose to ignore the fact, that gifts are not regarded by the boys as part of the 'tip'. This is borne out by the second part of the comment in GB's post.

 

The 'tip' expected by the boy is money/cash. If a farang wants to buy 'extras' in the form of clothes, shoes etc or, God forbid, gold chains or mobile phones, the boy will of course be delighted but in the vast majority of cases he will not consider such gifts as being part of his 'pay/tip' for the time he spends with the farang. Cash is what the boy is working for and anything else is regarded by him as extra perks of the job.

[Gaybutton]

GB,

I totally agree that man who gave 500 baht for several days is a TOTAL CAD! Outrageous! Now, that is sex slavery. Amazing that man like that didn't consider the boy has a life and expenses of HIS OWN.

 

That's my whole point, Kregger. I really get annoyed with people who assert that these boys are nothing but prostitutes, as if that means they don't deserve to be paid full fare for their services and their lives have no meaning. Based on some of the posts I see whenever this subject comes up, I'm convinced that there is a significant number of "farang" out there who have convinced themselves that these boys exist purely for their own personal pleasure and that there is no reason to give them one baht more than they absolutely have to. That is what I am trying to argue against.

[Guest Kregger]

OK, GB. We are probably close in agreement. Only a matter of semantics. To me, they are no better and no worse than any other human beings and workers, myself included. It complicates things that sometimes we fall in love with them, for sure.

[Guest stef]

OK, GB. We are probably close in agreement. Only a matter of semantics. To me, they are no better and no worse than any other human beings and workers, myself included. It complicates things that sometimes we fall in love with them, for sure.

 

 

Love usually turns things into complicated situations. That's for sure.

 

I have seen people falling in love with the boy or boy friend. But it all comes to one thing : Monney. Rare is a relation that can be build into such circumstances. Not in Thailand , neither elsewhere. When monney is involved right from the beginning , it would be hard to put it away down the road. That's what I think.

 

It also hard for some people to understand that those boys needs their fees and tips more than any gifts or anything else. Unfortunately it happens too many times.

 

Gift are great but it shouldn't be the first thing they should get.

 

 

[Gaybutton]

Gift are great but it shouldn't be the first thing they should get.

 

I agree with that. While some of us may consider a cash gift to be tacky (but business people have managed to convince us that gift certificates are just fine), that is not the case in Thailand. I have even been to weddings at which most of the Thai guests gave gifts of cash. It has been my observation over the years that most of the boys don't even want any other kind of gift. I get E-mail all the time asking for gift suggestions and people are often surprised when I recommend cash. But that's what the boys want. Rather than take a boy shopping, you're probably better off simply giving him the cash amount you intended to spend.

 

There is one exception. Most of the boys love getting a mobile phone even if they already have one, but it better be an expensive phone with all the bells and whistles. You can buy brand new mobile phones for as little as 2000 baht, but the boys seem to resent those rather than appreciate them. Just the other day someone was telling me he took a boy he liked shopping for a mobile phone. This boy had no phone at all. The "farang" was willing to buy a phone for him, but wasn't willing to spend more than a few thousand baht for it. It wasn't good enough for the boy. The boy wouldn't even accept it unless the phone had a built-in camera. They're not happy with a phone unless it at least has the camera and MP3 capability. Sheeeesh! I remember when the purpose of a phone was just to talk to someone who isn't with you. Today it has to almost be a way of life and personal entertainment center. If a boy has a phone, see if he goes as far as ten paces without it. Then try the impossible: getting him to at least turn it off during dinner or, better still, during intimate moments. How many of you were in the middle of a sexual encounter and then the boy's phone rang? I'll bet there was a slight "time out" while the boy actually answered the phone to talk to some friend of his.

 

I wonder what the record is for how long a boy actually possesses the phone before he breaks it, loses it, or sells it. I have yet to see a boy have the same phone for more than four months.

[Guest noy9000]

The "farang" was willing to buy a phone for him, but wasn't willing to spend more than a few thousand baht for it. It wasn't good enough for the boy. The boy wouldn't even accept it unless the phone had a built-in camera. They're not happy with a phone unless it at least has the camera and MP3 capability.

 

I don't understand why Thai boys (or if it's exclusively gay) are so into mobile phones, I'd gave an allowance (when I was trying to work things out with the first Thai BF, who is simple/ decent by the way) of 10,000THB (what was recommended at the time, for a month). He got himself a new mobile phone the 2nd day, 8,000THB.

 

Anyway, we broke off because of maturity differences.

 

It is a custom (including chinese) to give gifts of cash, the point of having the cash is for them to be able to relief any of their problems (rather than looking pretty, but worrying about the next rent or meal). But the equation works that way, the boy would do okay - with or without your help; he'll have his parents to ask help from.

 

Your cash is handy, because they won't have to return it.

 

[payless]

You can buy brand new mobile phones for as little as 2000 baht, but the boys seem to resent those rather than appreciate them. Just the other day someone was telling me he took a boy he liked shopping for a mobile phone. This boy had no phone at all. The "farang" was willing to buy a phone for him, but wasn't willing to spend more than a few thousand baht for it. It wasn't good enough for the boy. The boy wouldn't even accept it unless the phone had a built-in camera. They're not happy with a phone unless it at least has the camera and MP3 capability.

 

Its called ''face'' the boy cannot show off an inferior phone to his mates without loss of ''face''.

 

Also the boys like to show off that their farang is more generous than somebody elses. They can lie about the money bit not about the gift.

[Guest Geezer]

Should westerners find it so difficult to understand the attraction of a status symbol -- something expensive, visible, and portable? Is it not a nearly universal phenomenon?

 

We succumb to the lure of a Rolex or a particular automobile, the Colombian campesino to a chromium machete with an ornate leather sheath, and a Thai boy to a flashy mobile.

[Guest Kregger]

Not difficult.

But one part might show a cultural difference.

For a poor boy, to prefer NO PHONE at all versus a basic phone just for calls seems a bit odd.

When I was rather a rich little boy myself I was offered a very crappy beat up old car which I gladly accepted rather than have NO car. I can't imagine turning it down in exchange for NOTHING.

Same with a watch. Better a 200 baht deal than no watch.

[Guest Steve1903]

pepperami

for what it's worth, I kept the same boy for my 2 weeks there. He got 1500baht a day as well as some clothes and other bits and bobs. He didn't complain or seem unhappy with any of that and he stayed the course so I guess he found it to be worthwhile.

[Smiles]

" ... Anyway, we broke off because of maturity differences ... "

Who was the more mature?

 

Cheers ...

 

[Guest noy9000]

Who was the more mature?

Read the same posting, you'd quoted again. It's self-explainatory, and if you still didn't get the point (it was 1 of the more obvious point), ask me again & I'll go for your intellect.

[Bob]

You gave your Thai boyfriend 10,000 baht and he went out the next day and bought an 8,000 baht mobile phone?

Egads, how surprising (surprising, that is, that he waited until the next day).

 

I suspect that many 18-20 year old kids around the world would spend most of the 10,000 baht they were given for the reason they are 18-20 year old kids. Not knowing that in advance suggests the boyfriend is of the expected maturity age and you are not. And somehow implying that you have the right to tell him how to spend "his" money is befuddling to me.

 

 

[Guest noy9000]

You gave your Thai boyfriend 10,000 baht and he went out the next day and bought an 8,000 baht mobile phone?

Egads, how surprising (surprising, that is, that he waited until the next day).

 

I suspect that many 18-20 year old kids around the world would spend most of the 10,000 baht they were given for the reason they are 18-20 year old kids. Not knowing that in advance suggests the boyfriend is of the expected maturity age and you are not. And somehow implying that you have the right to tell him how to spend "his" money is befuddling to me.

I don't think that I'd told him how to spend the money (was it written?), but a feeling on how he spends them. There was no mention of the time I'd gave him the money, was there? But that wasn't the point. 18-20 is consider a young adult, I believe you mean something younger.. If your impression of 18 - 20 year old remains on the 'naive' level on what you'd expected, than you don't know teenagers these days. I'm 22. I know.

 

When you don't have any additional money, having problems with rents - spending 80% of all his money on something unneccessary is not a mature thing to do. How is 2,000THB be sufficient for the rest of the month (when it wasn't stated if I was going to give him any additional money for rents, or etc) It was a choice that he makes.

 

and you are not.

If you're pointing out my maturity level, than I'll cover my umbrella on all other folks (than add in their age factor, considering that certain amount of wisdom should be there) who started dating bar boys & it didn't work out. Than probably every other person, who fall in love on the first date or 2nd (or believe the boys stories on the first day, after getting boys from the bar), asking if 'there's a possible chance that he is telling the truth', or simply point out how many people has mis-understood the obviously written.

 

It's something that I did (like everyone has to learn), starting to date someone from the bar; but I'd make alot more effort verifying his words (I wouldn't talk about this, since I'd discussed this extensively in my early days in the same forum).

 

The problem with dating bar boys (or even regular boys) is that the quality that you thought you'd like (or wouldn't mind), isn't always true. It was written in the nuts-and-bolts that we should find someone that we have something in common with (or similar interest), I wonder how many of the locals can have that.

 

Considering the amount of 'I've a boyfriend, My boyfriend' I've heard, seen in the forum or somewhere else; I can't help but believe that the basis of the majority of the relationship is based on the need for the foreigner (It's unfair to say, Farangs) to have sex, and a cure for loneliness. Is it mature to deceive 1self to believe that they're in an actual relationship? I don't know, I would say that there's a need for basic assurance too.

 

suggests the boyfriend is of the expected maturity age.

On a different note I wonder how many people are 'tricked' by boys who are 18-20, having the same mindset (expectations of maturity level) as bob as above about the boys in the age range of 18-20 (2 years). It's no wonder.

 

Like it, or not. There's alot to be said about being mature, and everyone has lessons to learn.

[Bob]

Noy, I agree with you that 18 year olds are foolish with their money (foolish at least with respect to what I think is prudent).

But I never view I'm being "tricked" by anybody. They are just being themselves and, if I think or expect them to act prudently with their money, I'm only tricking myself.

It's hardly the middle class or upper class boys coming to work at the bars. Generally, it's poorly educated farm boys. For the kid to get 10,000 baht in his hand is like you or me getting a fortune.

They see all their friends with mobile phones (it has been "the" in thing for a while, you know) and I can hardly expect them not to want one. They've eaten with nothing in their pocket most of their lives so why we should we expect them to save their money for food and other necessities of life?

 

As to the 2,000 he didn't spend right away, that's an amount for many of them that would equal what their dads made in almost a month. And the kids are living in a society that seems to generally suggest you should "eat, drink, and be merry today" and worry about tomorrow no earlier than tomorrow. Not surprising at all.

 

I'm extremely prudent (tight?) with my money. But I do recall a time, many eons ago, when I was putting myself through college and acting about the same. I was working 20-30 hours a week and I often had about $5.00 extra per week to choose between food, clothing, alcohol, cigarettes,drugs, or gasoline for my beat-up old Volkswagon. Food, clothing, gasoline, or saving for a rainy day never won that fight. Same same.