Guest BKKvisitor Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 As evidenced from posts here and on other boards, and on a handful of blogs I follow--and from personal experiences of many visits, Thai guys are masters of the timeless art of manipulation. I often marvel at how consistently it's applied by guys who probably never met one another but you'd swear that they're in the same union. And I'm not talking about just MB's here; it appears to be a universal ability to arbitrarily provide and withhold affection and interest in a farang in hopes that it will put the Thai in a more beneficial position. Generally affectionate, Thais generally shower you with various forms on communications during the early stages of a relationship. Gradually, and mostly for no discernible reason, they abruptly back off. It can be quite overt (i.e., sulking, brief disappearances) as usually practiced by the younger guys to the more subtle (i.e.. not answering emails or phone messages). Particularly if the farang is new to the scene, he panics and assumes that he has done something wrong. Eager to regain the Thai guy's affection, he responds by doing exactly what the manipulator intended: proffer gifts and vows of various types. Magically, the affection returns but at a more measured level. At this point in the relationship, the Thai knows that he's in control. More seasoned farangs may respond by simply curtailing the relationship, but I'm never surprised if they drink the cool aid and accept their inferior position. I found myself doing it in my first three relationships, each time convincing myself that it was different this time. Slowly it has dawned on me that it's never going to be different: once you accept manipulation as part and parcel of a relationship --in the LOS or anywhere else on the globe--you're destined to experience stress and heartache. By this point in my travels to the LOS, I now end any relationship at the first sign of manipulation. I do it amicably and on the best terms possible, but I do it quickly and irrevocably. Later, I sometime experience twangs of regret and double guess my decision. However, I usually find that I'm satisfied with my course of action: a little pain now to avoid a lot of heartache later. I'd be interested in how others react to manipulation. Am I reacting too harshly and depriving myself of potentially promising relationships or does my reaction appear appropriate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest buaseng Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Particularly if the farang is new to the scene, he panics and assumes that he has done something wrong. Eager to regain the Thai guy's affection, he responds by doing exactly what the manipulator intended: proffer gifts and vows of various types. Magically, the affection returns but at a more measured level. At this point in the relationship, the Thai knows that he's in control. More seasoned farangs may respond by simply curtailing the relationship, but I'm never surprised if they drink the cool aid and accept their inferior position. The trouble with those farangs (both new to the scene and some seasoned), who fall for the manipulation, is that their brains have been transplanted from their head to between their legs. There is an old adage that 'Love is blind' - in their case white sticks are definately needed!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaybutton Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 Am I reacting too harshly and depriving myself of potentially promising relationships or does my reaction appear appropriate? I think you are absolutely right and that you are not reacting too harshly. You may indeed be depriving yourself of a promising relationship, but on the other hand you may be saving yourself quite a lot of grief and expense. Ending it at the first sign of trouble may not be the best move emotionally, but after living here long enough, seeing it happen to so many "farang," and going through it myself, I believe it's the smart move. Not all of the Thai boys are like that, but enough of them are that I believe the wise thing to do is to proceed with caution and not be afraid to end a relationship if it becomes necessary. It gets much tougher if you've been in a relationship over a long period of time and suddenly realize that despite all you tolerated and all you did and all you tried to do, in the end it meant nothing to the boy and you simply had been used and abused all along without realizing it. It's happened to a lot of "farang" and it's happened to me. The trouble is that it's not always so easy to see the handwriting on the wall and it's usually not until some sort of major incident happens that you even realize that you were being manipulated. When you wrote, "I now end any relationship at the first sign of manipulation," that really hit home with me. I've been in situations when I should have done just that, but didn't, and ended up deeply hurt and traumatized in the end. Some people are able to pick up the pieces, put it behind them, and move on with their lives and some people end up becoming the next "flying farang." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BKKvisitor Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 Gaybuttpn wrote: When you wrote, "I now end any relationship at the first sign of manipulation," that really hit home with me. I've been in situations when I should have done just that, but didn't, and ended up deeply hurt and traumatized in the end. Some people are able to pick up the pieces, put it behind them, and move on with their lives and some people end up becoming the next "flying farang." --------------- You make a great point here. Most farangs can move on with little regret but some middle-age farangs, such an episode can reenforce feelings of hopelessness. The best defense is to view these affairs of the heart with a bit of cold objectivity: (1) we're foreigners in a culture we'll never fully understand; (2) we're usually much older; (3) we're highly vulnerable to the first signs of affection; (4) we're all too likely to give our new friend the benefit of the doubt in face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I don't mean to discourage guys from pursuing relationships with Thais. For many, that's why we make the trip. And I'm always encouraged when I read accounts of farangs involved in long-term relationships of mutual respect with Thais. The best defense seems to be not to lose perspective. I have to admit that I wish there was a better way to meet Thais who are interested in genuine relationships. Let's face it: that guy hanging around the escalator at the Silom Complex probably isn't husband material. I would be interested in hearing from folks who found ways to meet Thais at venues other than the usual suspect locations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mgluyas Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 So you met that guy at silom station too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBill Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 I'm not sure I would chalk this up to Thai maniplation. I find the same can be said for young guys I have chatted with in other countries as well. Once they detcide for themselves that there is no profit or immediate gratification coming their way from the older gent on the other end of the email or phone, they're off in search of a new conquest. When it comes to manipulation, these Thai boys aren't that different from manipulators around the world as far as I can tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lvdkeyes Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 It has been said: God gave man two heads, but only enough blood for one of them to function at a time. It is always best to listen to your inner self. When you start having doubts or feelings that something isn't quite right, believe those feelings and act accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BKKvisitor Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 MRBill wrote: "When it comes to manipulation, these Thai boys aren't that different from manipulators around the world as far as I can tell." Comment: No, they're different. There much better at at. -------------------------- lvdkeyes wrote: "When you start having doubts or feelings that something isn't quite right, believe those feelings and act accordingly." Comment: If you choose not to act, be willing to suffer the consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest buaseng Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 It has been said: God gave man two heads Didn't know that God gave head - must be something I missed reading the Bible !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 The manipulation can be quite subtle and at times undetectable. We seldom feel the mosquito that lands and draws blood. A Thai friend in London once told me a Thai bf will often seek to maintain the advantage or upper hand, and much of what he says or does is designed to keep us on the defensive or to prompt favourable reaction. Easily remedied (for a short while) once he's been put back in his place and reminded who's boss. Then you'll notice that sweetness once more that you saw the very first time. But I'm at one with the wisdom aleady expressed. As soon as he gets too lazy to disguise his contrivances, I'm off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BKKvisitor Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 The manipulation can be quite subtle and at times undetectable. We seldom feel the mosquito that lands and draws blood. A Thai friend in London once told me a Thai bf will often seek to maintain the advantage or upper hand, and much of what he says or does is designed to keep us on the defensive or to prompt favourable reaction. Easily remedied (for a short while) once he's been put back in his place and reminded who's boss. Then you'll notice that sweetness once more that you saw the very first time. But I'm at one with the wisdom aleady expressed. As soon as he gets too lazy to disguise his contrivances, I'm off. Precisely. The more postings I read here and elsewhere, I marvel at the tolerance so many appear to have for truly crappy behavior. I posted the following reply to a member who was wondering if his bf was a liar: I've run into two young Thai men claiming that this was their "first time with man." One was a 23-year-old university student who had amazing skills for a newbie but claimed not to know where Patpong was located. The other was a 25-year-old student attending an American University who, surprisingly enough, also possessed wonderful skills in bed. When he asked later if I had ever been to Thailand, I replied several times. He warned me (without the slightest trace of irony) "never believe anything that a Thai boy tells you." I regret to say, I've found that the was good advice indeed. I'm not implying that everything a Thai bf will tell you is false. What I am implying is that they take liberties with the truth so often that it gets to the point where it's nearly impossible to distinguish between his truthful utterances and his contrivances. I quite recently broke off a brief but intense relationship when I reluctantly had to acknowledged that I had two choices: (1) overlook his obvious lies and two-timiming or (2) confront him with the lies and tell him that I could no longer accept accept his behavior. I didn't ask him to change because I've known enough Thais to realize that just isn't going to happen. I miss his gorgeous body and great smile. What I don't miss is the anxiety his behavior generated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaybutton Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 I regret to say, I've found that the was good advice indeed. I'm not implying that everything a Thai bf will tell you is false. What I am implying is that they take liberties with the truth so often that it gets to the point where it's nearly impossible to distinguish between his truthful utterances and his contrivances. Let's not forget that we're talking about Thai boys. I don't know why people are writing as if manipulation, lying and cheating is limited to Thai boys. I rarely have ever met any boy at all, Thai or otherwise, who doesn't do the same thing, and that probably includes most of us when we were that age. What did you expect? We even have so-called adults who post right on these message boards who sometimes are caught lying and cheating with the same immaturity. So, what's the big surprise about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pete1969 Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 I have found in my experience that Thais in general have a different view of lying than do Westerners, and I have been told as much by Thais. For example, I knew one Thai boy who lied to his friend about something. When I aksed him why he lied, he told me: "Not him business. He know this already. So, not matter if I what I say true or not true." I find Thais will lie to spare one's feelings or to cover behaviour that they think is none of your business to know about. For example, BKKVisitor knew his guy was lying about two-timing him. However, to many Thais, it is not anyone's business who they have sex with because they don't see casual sex as bad or fidelity in a relationship as good. So, of course, his guy lied because he probably did not think it was BKKVistor's business nor that it should matter in their relationship. Ofttimes, a Thai will lie to you because he thinks he is saving you face by not having to say to you that something is not your business or because you are being naive about their cultural behavior. Thais also, to be polite, will tell a person what they think the person wants to hear, especially if the person is a patron or older than them and due respect. In addition, Thais will often lie to save face or to avoid saying "I don't know." If you ask most Thais for directions, they will give them to you even if they don't know. They don't want to admit to a farang (or anyone) that they don't know something. In the West, we see lying as an unpardonable sin. I think Thais (and Asian cultures) often see lying as a way to save or to give face (or take it away). I've meet more than a few who just don't understand farang's obssession over this subject. For many Thais, to "toylay" someone (my bad Thai translation of the word lie) is a fact of life and is really nothing to worry over. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kregger Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 I agree that lying is perceived differently in Thai culture. We learn this spending time in Thailand. However, I also think in a long term relationship between a Westerner and a Thai, isn't it a good thing if the Thai meets us half way and learns and respects how WE feel about lying? These are cross cultural relationships. It seems to me that both sides of it need to make some adjustments to make it work. Just because we are in Thailand, does that mean we are supposed to give up all of our values? In exchange for what? Its not like we can easily be residents here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BKKvisitor Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 I have to agree with what Kregger and Pete1969 said. We all have to choose how we're going to deal with it. I've gotten to know a few Thais now living in America. Both are well educated and I've known one for a dozen years (he's in his mid-30's) and the other only three months (he's 25). Although they appear to have embraced western ways they have the same concept of the truth that Kregger, Pete and and others refer to in their postings. Both are involved in relationships of varying lengths (one with an American and the other with an Asian student) and they both admit to lying to their partners about seeing other guys. Consequently, I don't get the sense that this is something Thai guys "outgrow." They certainly mature in other ways but this is not among them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BKKvisitor Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Read this on the Sawatdee MB. It's a Stickman posting that fits right into this thread and the thread on fidelity: http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader/reader1258.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
