Hooker spoiling it for everyone!

[Guest Riptide]

>I know as evidenced by your insanely psychotic response to BN

>in another thread that you have no capacity at interpretation

>of anything beyond literal writing. My “presumption” was a

>sarcastic comment saying that it couldn’t POSSIBLY be me.

In an effort to protect you from being rendered “speechless” again, as you once were in the thread of which you reference, I’ll simply assert that your publicly posted sarcasms in response to mine and other poster’s viewpoints at multiple website forums, generally require more follow-up clarification by you, to the forum readers or responders, than any other poster I can recall as of late. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but perhaps sarcasm for you, like motherhood for Britney, is something that still needs some work and perfection on your part.

>Think of OJ winking at the world by saying, “I didn’t do it

>but if I’d done it …”

Comparing your sarcasm communication skills to a cold blooded killer, who has demonstrated no regard or regret for those of whom he has personally destroyed for total life, literally and figuratively, is probably as good of an example for you Scott that I could ever offer you, as to why you should stick to “literal writing, as apposed to sarcasm” as you say, for the betterment of those who read your words and quite frankly, all of mankind.

>LOL since when are you defending BN. First Global Warming and now >this? Where are the other twohorsemen?

I of course have NOT defended BN here in any stated word or reflection, and you know that. I have simply referenced YOUR very public and emotional post about BN at another site, in another post, which mirrors the same character-less behavior of which you have accused him of (without really saying it to him directly or by name) of doing here to you. You were very cautious about that, but That cautiousness also made you very hypocritical. That being, taking a fellow escort to task publicly about something you personally disagree with. Granted, BN’s ball-less and cowardly manner of only offering a “blind reference” within this and other threads is what you responded to; but when it comes to BN’s character, that’s what you should expect. Where did yours suddenly exit? Was it ever really there?

This thread was originally started to speak about the negotiation of escort rates. And, as BG has so eloquently expressed, again, negotiation is a reality that most secure individuals in business, whatever that business might be, will entertain and use that knowledge to their benefit. It’s clear, at least to me, that those who are the most insecure with what they are doing as prostitutes, or more honestly, hate what they are doing as prostitutes, as a hobby, are the voice of delusion that speaks to, and poisons the up and coming people, which may have a different point of view of the industry, and are influenced by the mentor.

My advice? Don’t be a fucking idiot if you’re going to hire a guy to fuck you or vice versa. If a guy can’t tell you what it’s going to cost you to suck his cock, fuck his ass, or the latter, in reverse….fuck him for free by hanging up or not responding to the email in question at all.

Escorts who price themselves as “ala-Carte” or by “this or that” are stupid mother fuckers that I’ll personally jerk off to an old falcon video to and then go out to dinner, with a friend, before I’ll allow them to make me feel less that what they will perhaps never be in totallity.

Suddenly, I feel like Chinese. I’m calling them now to negotiate a non delivery charge for a large order I'm going to place because i have alot of friends over here and I think the it's perhaps a good move for me and my restaurant of choice..…………..

Breaking news... Interestingly.....My order carries no delivery fee due to it's size AND, due to the size of my order, the resturant is throwing in three of their four appitizers simply because they saw the value of the order and what that just might be to future business......

Funny how life imitates real life no?........

[Guest BostonGuy]

>One sided and demeaning to clients ... hmmm ... yes that's

>one way to look at it but we're not discussing how clients

>feel on this topic are we?

>

And why not? It's every bit as valid as discussing how escorts feel on this topic.

>The post seemed like an excellent way to turn things around

>and misappropriate context as to the idea -- negotiating

>FEES.

Ummm.... I think you miss the point of my post entirely. Please re-read it for meaning.

I understand from past conversations that you believe that it is not legitimate for clients to negotiate fees with escorts. I disagree and I actively encourage clients to negotiate fees.

You may feel -- and have stated to this effect -- that it's demeaning to the escort for a client to offer to negotiate fees. I don't agree and my point of view is as valid as the other party's in any negotiation to which I am a party. And make no mistake: hiring a service provider is always a negotiation, even if the entirety of the negotiation is to accept known terms.

You may think its more personal than that, for understandable reasons but, ultimately, you're a service provider. You offer a service and you ask a price for it. You don't post that price, to my knowledge, so there's no way for any given client to know if the price you have suggested is the same price you offer everyone or what you feel like charging today or even this hour. It doesn't matter, actually, to my way of thinking. You can suggest any price you want. But I think every client should feel perfectly free to accept or reject the price --or to suggest another price or another set of terms.

You negotiate what you provide but you don't want to negotiate what you receive. It's a nice deal when you can get it. Many Americans aren't comfortable with negotiating, feeling somewhat embarrassed when they engage in it. So perhaps you have a lot of luck with what I feel is a very heavy-handed approach. If so, more power to you and I mean that without any sarcasm.

But I will continue to live my life on my own terms and that will include negotiating with escorts whenever I feel it's appropriate. It's served me very well for years and I expect it will to continue to do so into the future.

Which brings me to your friend's comment ("Are you kidding me, they don't know what it's like to escort and they never will. There's no way you can take any of them seriously.") That can be interpreted in a number of ways. I'll choose to take it on face value, as a discussion of the business of escorting, rather than as yet another general put-down of clients. On the one hand, most of us have probably not escorted and so he's right -- we don't know what it's like to be an escort. But most of us have been around the block a few times and have learned a fair amount along the way.

I don't have to be a carpenter to be able to hire a good carpenter effectively and negotiate a fair price for a project. I don't need to be an electrician to do likewise. And I don't need to be an attorney to hire a good attorney, again at a fair price. In all of these cases, and countless others, a fair price may well not be the price that was first asked by the service provider. Most people start with a higher price, simply because there are lots of people who just accept it and end up paying more than they should. There's a reason why insurance companies ask for several estimates for a job.

You may not like the comparison with electricians and plumbers and lawyers, but I believe it's apt. You offer a service that clients are purchasing and you absolutely negotiate the terms of what you are willing to provide. You simply don't want to negotiate your fees. No business does but most have to unless they are large and/or retail.

BG

[Guest ScottAdler]

Since I'm genuinely doing by best, albeit not well so far, to choose battles and not get sucked into posting wars on either site as a new year's resolution I'll avoid the tit for tat that's really unnecessary in response to your attack.

I'll just say that if you can honestly compare hiring an escort to ordering out for Chinese Food, the only image I can conjure up is a fat happy buddha jerking off to Falcon. Enjoy them together as it appears to be a concept you admittedly know quite well.

[Guest BostonGuy]

Scott:

I think you have a very exaggerated understanding of the value many of us attach to getting together with an escort.

From reading these boards for years now, I do understand that there are many clients who attach great meaning to their escort encounters. They feel they are going a date and, in some cases, attach very significant romantic overtones to the meeting. When the "date" is successful, these men seem to take significant pleasure from it; on the other hand, when it isn't, they can be quite seriously disappointed.

I would never question or criticize how these guys approach hiring an escort. They are doing what makes them happy, which is, of course, the whole point.

But there are many clients, myself included, who attach very significantly less importance to the encounter. For me, it's all about fun. Unless I'm getting together with someone that I've known for a fairly significant amount of time, the encounter will be much like two casual friends getting together to fool around and that's it. I draw a very clear line between fun with escorts and serious emotional relationships with other people. (The only exceptions are with a small cadre of escorts that I have grown close to -- as friends -- over years of getting together.)

My decision to get together with an escort is often at the last minute, usually while I'm traveling on business. I might seriously weigh calling someone vs. simply going to dinner and reading whatever book I'm carrying with me. That's seriously the kind of trade-off I've often made. It comes down to what kind of enjoyment I'm in the mood for.

Perhaps this will help you understand why I've sometimes laughed out loud when I've read escorts write that their services are more important than those provided by doctors and lawyers. Perhaps they are, to some people. But, to me, they're not even on the same continent. Escorts are a source of amusement and fun... period.

From time to time, I meet an escort who is just starting out. In those cases, I offer whatever advice I can. One of the things I recommend is that they keep it clear in their minds that they are providing a commercial transaction and keep their clients at arms-length. Failing to do so is to invite trouble, in my mind. For me, the flip side of that for clients is to remember that they've hired an escort for fun -- not to become their next boyfriend or new best friend.

When you approach it with this attitude, the whole question of negotiation also makes more sense. Sometimes people will write something like "if you can't afford the escort, find someone else; don't question the fees." I don't find this to be a sensible approach.

I've never heard of an escort that I couldn't afford to take away on a very long trip. I'm sure that's true of most people hanging around here. The question doesn't revolve around ability to pay but rather fair value and sensible use of one's money... a lesson I learned years ago from a man who is dead now but who managed to turn $100 into a fortune worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

I suppose if someone feels like they've just had a truly wonderful romantic evening with an escort, then $500 per hour might seem like a steal. For me, paying an escort $300 per hour for some casual fun just seems silly. I've done it a couple of times just to meet someone that I was especially intrigued with but I find absolutely no correlation between the fun I have with an escort and the fee.

If I call someone and they quote me $300 for an hour, I'm likely to just go to dinner and read my book. I'll have a different kind of evening but one I'll probably enjoy every bit as much. On the other hand, while I might not be willing to pay $300 for an hour, I might well be willing to pay $450 for two hours.

I did exactly that with an escort a couple of weeks ago. He's a part-time escort -- the kind of guy I often seek out. He charges $300 simply because he can and because he has a lot of loans to pay off. When I suggested two hours, he accepted happily. He told me later that, from his point of view, there was very little difference between one hour and two hours, because the travel time to and from the hotel was the same, the time he spent getting ready was the same, etc. (a point that others have made in the past). So, from his point of view, he was picking up an extra $150 for marginal extra investment of time. I was happy and he was happy and he asked me to call him again.

I could have just thanked him and said "no thanks" when he said $300. Had I done so, we wouldn't have met. So this was a case where negotiation was simple and successful.

And, yes, I think I have every right to suggest a different fee structure when speaking with an escort, just as I feel I have every right to suggest a fee structure when dealing with any service provider. Any one of them has every right to decline or to counteroffer. If they do, I won't be offended because it isn't personal -- it's a commercial transaction.

BG

[Guest epigonos]

Hey BostonGuy let me say ,up front, that I agree with nearly everything you have just written on this thread. I always ignore an escorts hourly rate simply because I NEVER hire for one hour. I ask an escort if he is available for lunch or dinner and a couple of hour of play time and if so what his fee would be. Nowadays, regardless of his hourly rate, the most common respose in $500 - $600. Those numbers are in my ballpark and we then proceed to setting up a get together. Now if the guy quotes a higher fee I simply say thank you and sign off. I understand that some clients will then make a counter offer and I find not fault in that. I don't do it because I "personally" HATE the entire bargaining process. I lived for years in countries were one bargained for virtually everything and I loathed it. Simply stated it doesn't make me happy to bargain so I DON'T DO IT!!!!!

[Guest twinklover]

>the only image I can

>conjure up is a fat happy buddha jerking off to Falcon.

The only image I can conjure up is Jabba the Hut saying "no bargain." Not bargaining was not in Jabba's best interests. ;-)

Many clients don't need to make inquiries or negotiate fees at all. The quoted fee is fair and reasonable and happily accepted. It is usually only when very high fees are demanded, or fees are scaled significantly upwards depending on the situation, that comments are made and negotiation occurs. Clients have every right to question these extraordinary fees and refuse to engage escorts who attempt to charge them.

[Guest Riptide]

First off, I’d like to personally apologize to everyone and anyone who read my last posted remarks within this thread. The language of which I used horrifies me a day later. Calling someone a stupid mother fucker to convey a thought of reasoning, discredits my point of view with no ability to rebound from. I’m working on that. Sometimes, I need to chill, before I post. The reason I say that is because I never got around to sharing why my inappropriate use of words set me off they way they did, and quite frankly, had I done that, would still hold no value for it anyway.

I don’t believe for a moment that Scott Adler is a bad person. I just think he does things and says things that put him in a very controversial setting, which when challenged, turns him into a back peddling, no that’s not what I meant, kind of poster to save face. Not always to save face, but many times, indeed, to do so. Why a self proclaimed “Hobby Ho” as he likes to suggest to everyone as being his existence to this industry, would want to take on mentoring and sponsoring those who are not of the “Hobby Ho” mindset, is somewhat bewildering, but nonetheless, something that another can not really question, except for genuine curiosity.

Scott is indeed young, and, a semester of psychology can be worse to some, than a life time of real life experience will ever provide. I don’t believe for a moment that Scott is a “Hobby Ho.” I think he’s a Ho, who doesn’t want to confront the fact that that’s what he is. He’s a Ho of a different color, just as was the horse of a different color in the wizard of Oz, Scott wants to believe that he’s special or different. He’s not.

Scott would have you believe that what he does as a mentor and promoter to fellow escorts is for himself AND for you. Half of that reality is true. Guess which one….? Scott believes, just as his spoken words of past have told about his feelings, that clients are ugly, desperate and sad. Those beliefs are historical and ingrained on the net for anyone’s referenced search.

Here’s the quality type of guy, many now know as Soccerjock here and over there, which Scott promoted and sold to you as a really great guy and a brand new hot guy on the scene. Nothing could be further from the truth. This link, which you must scroll down to the second item on the site to find, titled “Again with the Faggotry!” captures what Scott believes is the proper mindset of an escort and what he expects from you….the sucker, I mean loser. Nice sponsorship Scott, it’s good to know that you’ve found someone who supports your own beliefs.

http://gothamwhore.blogspot.com/2006_02_01...re_archive.html

I guess I’m just wondering here Scott, if you could provide us all a VH-1 moment and share with us all, where all your sponsored escorts are today, those of which you promoted, and told us all they were good bets for the dollar we might have laid down for them on your behalf. Is that possible?

[Guest PWIT]

x(

[Guest PWIT]

x(

[Guest ScottAdler]

>Scott believes, just

>as his spoken words of past have told about his feelings, that

>clients are ugly, desperate and sad. Those beliefs are

>historical and ingrained on the net for anyone’s referenced

>search.

Taking the use of one word (not among those that you used -- perhaps some projection?) and used out of context. Nice try though.

>http://gothamwhore.blogspot.com/2006_02_01...re_archive.html

Check the date on that one. That posting by Brett was almost 6 months before I even met him.

[Guest twinklover]

"I don’t believe for a moment that Scott Adler is a bad person."

Damn, riptide, I appreciate your honesty on many topics but this struck me the most. I've criticized SA on many things on other sites. On this site, I have only questioned his view of fees. But even taking into account all of my other lengthy criticisms of SA, I still must agree with you riptide: "I don’t believe for a moment that Scott Adler is a bad person." He's many other things but he's NOT A BAD PERSON.

I mean that in this sense. He won't murder you. He won't steal from you. He may privately think you're "disgusting" (well, some may find him to be that way) but he won't say it to your face. At least he won't say it to your face in the middle of a high-paid session. He will save his remarks about his "disgusting" clients for escorts forums and for gossip with other escorts, including those new young escorts he now mentors and sponsors. He may privately think that what he does with you is "disgusting". But not his fees--those fees aren't "disgusting" at all--they are beyond reproach and certainly any negotiation.

I have not invented the word "disgusting" for purposes of this post. It is a word very familiar to SA and to those who have followed SA's posts on M4M. Don't deny it, that's exactly the word SA has used. Let's stop the bullshit, at least on this site. Some of us are well-prepared to call you on it.

[Guest SmallTownJohn1]

If the guy in the Sugar Daddy link is The Beev from MCO...def. fuckable!

Is he a screamer?

Can he handle marathon hole punishment?

Short...round butt...nice legs...good size to hold down

Allrightee, I'm ready for my 9 p.m. appointment :0)

John

SmallTownJohn1@gmaill.com

http://www.men4rentnow.com/ds/search.asp?c...=SmallTownJohn1

http://www.maleescortreview.com/index.php?...er_id=106010108

http://www.daddysreviews.com/area.php?loc=...wn_john_atlanta

[Guest ScottAdler]

A little bird and I started throwing birdseed back and forth at one another over how to deal with posts on here ... I'll try pecking from his bowl this rainy afternoon

>And why not? It's every bit as valid as discussing how

>escorts feel on this topic.

Clients aren't feeling anything when the question is whether or not escorts are offended.

>Ummm.... I think you miss the point of my post entirely.

>Please re-read it for meaning.

>

>I understand from past conversations that you believe that it

>is not legitimate for clients to negotiate fees with escorts.

>I disagree and I actively encourage clients to negotiate

>fees.

I think you miss the point of my soap box entirely, please re-read past messages for meaning. Negotiation is part of all business, I have never denied it. I merely contend that it's not up to the client because he has nothing at stake more than money in the matter which it is his right to pay or not to pay.

>You may think its more personal than that, for understandable

>reasons but, ultimately, you're a service provider. You offer

>a service and you ask a price for it. You don't post that

>price, to my knowledge, so there's no way for any given client

>to know if the price you have suggested is the same price you

>offer everyone or what you feel like charging today or even

>this hour. It doesn't matter, actually, to my way of

>thinking. You can suggest any price you want. But I think

>every client should feel perfectly free to accept or reject

>the price --or to suggest another price or another set of

>terms.

Someone on the other board said I'm providing something to which I replied is the crux of my argument. I'm someone not something

>Which brings me to your friend's comment ("Are you

>kidding me, they don't know what it's like to escort and they

>never will. There's no way you can take any of them

>seriously.") That can be interpreted in a number of

>ways.

I'm interested in the other ways you interpret it. Please explain.

>You may not like the comparison with electricians and plumbers

>and lawyers, but I believe it's apt. You offer a service that

>clients are purchasing and you absolutely negotiate the terms

>of what you are willing to provide. You simply don't want to

>negotiate your fees. No business does but most have to unless

>they are large and/or retail.

We've used professional references as examples but again all those are in context. Having been around the block meaning you've had sex does not qualify you to sell it. Not having been an electrician etc. and having had sex are two completely different categories.

Last I checked, filing a W-2 as a sex-worker wasn't quite as easy as doing so as an electrician or plumber. I negotiate quite regularly but on my terms because selling sex is selling me. I have the right to put a price on me, not you. You have the right to say what you think is fair and whether or not you're going to pay it.

Consider it a Client Bill of Rights and an Escort Bill of Rights ... now there's an interesting thread that could be started. Although I vaguely recall something similar like "expectations" that started a massive war.

[Guest ScottAdler]

>But there are many clients, myself included, who attach very

>significantly less importance to the encounter. For me, it's

>all about fun. Unless I'm getting together with someone that

>I've known for a fairly significant amount of time, the

>encounter will be much like two casual friends getting

>together to fool around and that's it. I draw a very clear

>line between fun with escorts and serious emotional

>relationships with other people. (The only exceptions are

>with a small cadre of escorts that I have grown close to -- as

>friends -- over years of getting together.)

And that's perfectly fine. But the point is it should be fun for everyone. If someone is feeling slighted or pressured then somebody isn't going to enjoy themselves.

>Perhaps this will help you understand why I've sometimes

>laughed out loud when I've read escorts write that their

>services are more important than those provided by doctors and

>lawyers. Perhaps they are, to some people. But, to me,

>they're not even on the same continent. Escorts are a source

>of amusement and fun... period.

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way but it's of course your perogative. I don't know who's ever written that services are MORE important but perhaps like your interpretation of my "no negotiation ever" policy it was a misread. But to say that all escorts are is a source of "amusement" and fun says something about how you feel about other people which is kinda sad. And if that's all you're looking for in an escort you could probably save that much more money checking out the red light districts in your city of choice.

>From time to time, I meet an escort who is just starting out.

>In those cases, I offer whatever advice I can. One of the

>things I recommend is that they keep it clear in their minds

>that they are providing a commercial transaction and keep

>their clients at arms-length. Failing to do so is to invite

>trouble, in my mind. For me, the flip side of that for

>clients is to remember that they've hired an escort for fun --

>not to become their next boyfriend or new best friend.

Related to the above I find that sad as well. I'm not saying people should be that trustworthy but some of my best friends today are clients. I explored dating witha couple but we still decided to remain friends. Not all client escort relationships look socially unacceptable and there are as wide a range of clients as there are escorts. It's upsetting to put people in boxes of expectations and make their interactions so cold.

>One of the

>things I recommend is that they keep it clear in their minds

>that they are providing a commercial transaction and keep

>their clients at arms-length. Failing to do so is to invite

>trouble, in my mind.

I needed to repost this to respond to it specifically in context. Don't you think you're doing more hurt than help to the client community outside of those that just want perfunctory sex? Stuff like this might account for the lack of passion or engaging with some escorts that clients are complaining about in reviews.

>When you approach it with this attitude, the whole question of

>negotiation also makes more sense. Sometimes people will

>write something like "if you can't afford the escort,

>find someone else; don't question the fees." I don't

>find this to be a sensible approach.

Not all clients are looking for the perfunctory experience. Perhaps in your initial inquiries you should simply say I'm looking for a quick fuck at the best price. It's blunt and gets to the point and an escort can figure out right away if he wants to take it any further. I find that more respectful than anything else because nobody's time gets wasted.

>If I call someone and they quote me $300 for an hour, I'm

>likely to just go to dinner and read my book. I'll have a

>different kind of evening but one I'll probably enjoy every

>bit as much.

And save a whole bunch of money if that's all it takes to make you just as happy. I think I'll start bringing books to dinner appointments if that's all it takes to make some people happy

>I could have just thanked him and said "no thanks"

>when he said $300. Had I done so, we wouldn't have met. So

>this was a case where negotiation was simple and successful.

You negotiated a second hour Congrats. That's pretty irrelevant to question at hand and even so it's with one escort with so many details left out. Asking you is silly but did you suggest $450 for the two hours, did he give you a rate for two hours? did you ask him what rate he would be comfortable with for two hours? Very important questions.

>And, yes, I think I have every right to suggest a different

>fee structure when speaking with an escort, just as I feel I

>have every right to suggest a fee structure when dealing with

>any service provider. Any one of them has every right to

>decline or to counteroffer. If they do, I won't be offended

>because it isn't personal -- it's a commercial transaction.

This is the overarching problem with your replies to me. You keep saying you're not offended because it's a commercial transaction. It's not about YOU being offended, we're talking about the escorts here. The escort is the one setting a fee for you having sex with them, you're looking at it from the point of view of getting the best price.

So again ... none of this is meant to be retaliatory and I hope it's coming across as such. I'm not asking you to see it from an escort perspective, I'm asking you to understand it's the escort's perspective that matters in whether or not the escort is being offended.

[Guest twinklover]

> So again ... none of this is meant to be retaliatory and I

>hope it's coming across as such. I'm not asking you to see it

>from an escort perspective, I'm asking you to understand it's

>the escort's perspective that matters in whether or not the

>escort is being offended.

Blah blah blah. I have rarely seen a more one-sided indefensible diatribe. You just keep on talking. It does wonders for you and your positions. Let me just say this, at the risk of "offending" you. You just keep on charging a premiuim, like $450 or $500 or whatever you charge, just to have a clean asshole and be fucked. It's outrageous. Outrageous! Trust me, the old wily veterans who visit this site are not much impressed, either by your arguments or your pricing policy.

[Guest BostonGuy]

>I'm sorry to hear you feel that way but it's of course your

>perogative. I don't know who's ever written that services are

>MORE important but perhaps like your interpretation of my

>"no negotiation ever" policy it was a misread.

Search the archives... you'll find it multiple times if you look.

> But

>to say that all escorts are is a source of

>"amusement" and fun says something about how you

>feel about other people which is kinda sad.

Nah... all it says is something about how I view how escorts and clients should approach getting together with each other. What's "kinda sad" is when escorts try to convince older men that they really like them and really enjoy being with them, in order to encourage repeat business. That's called lying and I prefer the truth. Getting together with an escort can be a blast and I enjoy it very much. But I don't hide the reasons why I'm in the room and I don't want the escort to, either.

>And if that's all

>you're looking for in an escort you could probably save that

>much more money checking out the red light districts in your

>city of choice.

Oh, I've seen you write this before. It's a poor attempt to somehow elevate yourself or others above those -- GASP! -- prostitutes who frequent red-light districts. If I were you, I'm not sure I'd really want to walk too far down that analogy.

In reality, I prefer meeting hot, young, educated, interesting men and I don't seem to have much trouble finding them. Some I see only once, but that's pretty rare. Most I see several times, at least. I've been seeing some for years. Nothing in anything I've written suggests I'm looking for a low-quality encounter. Instead, I'm looking for an honest encounter. I'm happy to admit that the reason I hire escorts is because I enjoy meeting these guys and fooling around with them. I would hope that they would be equally happy to admit that the reason they are in the room is because they want the money. End of story. They don't need to convince me that there is some false romantic overtone going on. I'm more than satisfied with what they are honestly bringing to the party.

>

>>From time to time, I meet an escort who is just starting out.

>>In those cases, I offer whatever advice I can. One of the

>>things I recommend is that they keep it clear in their minds

>>that they are providing a commercial transaction and keep

>>their clients at arms-length. Failing to do so is to invite

>>trouble, in my mind. For me, the flip side of that for

>>clients is to remember that they've hired an escort for fun --

>>not to become their next boyfriend or new best friend.

>

>Related to the above I find that sad as well. I'm not saying

>people should be that trustworthy but some of my best friends

>today are clients. I explored dating with a couple but we

>still decided to remain friends. Not all client escort

>relationships look socially unacceptable and there are as wide

>a range of clients as there are escorts. It's upsetting to

>put people in boxes of expectations and make their

>interactions so cold.

>

Well, you may find it sad, but I find it honest. What I find sad is the use of fake emotion by escorts to try to encourage repeat business. It's necessary for a good escort to at least look like they're enjoying sex with the client, for obvious reasons. But many escorts encourage clients' romantic fantasies. I see nothing wrong with fantasies -- until they start to become the basis for one's life.

What's really sad is when a guy gets to a point where escorts are his sole emotional outlet. I can easily understand an older guy getting to the point where escorts might offer his only sexual outlet. But confusing that with real emotional relationships is a big mistake, in my book. Guys who are seeking soul-mates would do well to look for real soul-mates, who are likely to be far closer to their own age and possibly far less attractive physically -- but willing to be friends or more in an honest, open, possibly loving way.

Of course, the key question for a client is: Will Escort X, who professes to have all these feelings for me and be my friend, continue to come see me and have sex for me if I can no longer pay him anything at all?

In most cases, the obvious answer will be no, for an escort is in this business to make money. (There's nothing wrong with that -- I'm all in favor of capitalism.) But these are commercial relationships and clients who allow themselves to forget that (or who are encouraged to forget it or overlook it by escorts) are not doing themselves any favors.

>>One of the things I recommend is that they keep it clear in their minds

>>that they are providing a commercial transaction and keep

>>their clients at arms-length. Failing to do so is to invite trouble, in my mind.

>

>I needed to repost this to respond to it specifically in

>context. Don't you think you're doing more hurt than help to

>the client community outside of those that just want

>perfunctory sex? Stuff like this might account for the lack

>of passion or engaging with some escorts that clients are

>complaining about in reviews.

>

No, I don't think I'm doing anyone harm. Being honest about your life and why you are engaging in certain activities cannot be harmful, except perhaps to some of one's fantasies. From an intellectual point of view, there is much about prostitution -- which is, after all, what we're talking about here -- that is potentially harmful for both parties. Clients are often in a position of great vulnerability. They are often old, sometimes isolated (especially from the gay community), very often lonely. They are easy prey for guys who want to convince them that they are younger than they think, lots of fun and, above all, desirable.

Engaging in this kind of fantasy can be fun and there's nothing wrong with it, so long as you keep in context. When a client starts believing the fantasy, it's become harmful, in my opinion. It's easy and loads of fun to get together with escorts without needing to convince yourself that they have just become a potential new boyfriend.

>Not all clients are looking for the perfunctory experience.

>Perhaps in your initial inquiries you should simply say I'm

>looking for a quick fuck at the best price. It's blunt and

>gets to the point and an escort can figure out right away if

>he wants to take it any further. I find that more respectful

>than anything else because nobody's time gets wasted.

>

Trust me, I'm quite honest and open about what I am seeking when discussing things with an escort. Doing otherwise is just plain silly.

>>If I call someone and they quote me $300 for an hour, I'm

>>likely to just go to dinner and read my book. I'll have

>a

>>different kind of evening but one I'll probably enjoy

>every

>>bit as much.

>

>And save a whole bunch of money if that's all it takes to make

>you just as happy. I think I'll start bringing books to

>dinner appointments if that's all it takes to make some people

>happy

>

Many people today seem to have lost the art and joy of reading. Pity.

>>I could have just thanked him and said "no

>thanks"

>>when he said $300. Had I done so, we wouldn't have met.

>So

>>this was a case where negotiation was simple and

>successful.

>

>You negotiated a second hour Congrats. That's pretty

>irrelevant to question at hand and even so it's with one

>escort with so many details left out. Asking you is silly but

>did you suggest $450 for the two hours, did he give you a rate

>for two hours? did you ask him what rate he would be

>comfortable with for two hours? Very important questions.

>

Not irrelevant at all: I was the one who suggested a different price for a different amount of time. This particular offer is one I will often suggest. But I'm happy to go back and forth with an escort if they would prefer to make another suggestion. Negotiating does not have to be complex and certainly does not have to be argumentative or unpleasant. In fact, when it becomes either of those or anything resembling a put-down of the other party, it's most likely going to fail. People who think negotiating is unpleasant are almost invariably those who have little experience with it.

>>And, yes, I think I have every right to suggest a

>different

>>fee structure when speaking with an escort, just as I feel

>I

>>have every right to suggest a fee structure when dealing

>with

>>any service provider. Any one of them has every right to

>>decline or to counteroffer. If they do, I won't be

>offended

>>because it isn't personal -- it's a commercial

>transaction.

>

>This is the overarching problem with your replies to me. You

>keep saying you're not offended because it's a commercial

>transaction. It's not about YOU being offended, we're talking

>about the escorts here. The escort is the one setting a fee

>for you having sex with them, you're looking at it from the

>point of view of getting the best price.

>

I just don't see how you can think it's more important for one party to not be offended than the other. I guess you simply cannot remove yourself from the middle in order to take the long view. Nevertheless, at the end of the day, I don't really care if an escort is offended if I make an offer to him. If he is offended, we probably won't end up getting together, which is probably for the best.

Escorts need to keep in mind that these are commercial relationships and they are doing what they are doing to make money. That's it, plain and simple. If they are not comfortable negotiating an agreement that's satisfying to both parties, well, they simply haven't learned much yet about business. That's probably not in their best interest.

In return, an escort can make any offer or suggestion back to me. I won't be offended -- if you're willing to make suggestions to another party in a negotiation without fear that they might be offended, then you have to be willing to offer the same thing in return and I do. It's called an adult discussion.

>So again ... none of this is meant to be retaliatory and I

>hope it's coming across as such. I'm not asking you to see it

>from an escort perspective, I'm asking you to understand it's

>the escort's perspective that matters in whether or not the

>escort is being offended.

I don't think you are being retaliatory. And you're certainly not be unpleasant in any way. You're stating where you are coming from.

But we disagree on your major premise, which is that it matters whether or not the escort is offended when someone offers to negotiate some kind of fair deal with them. You think it's important and I think it's not, because I see these as commercial transactions that should be discussed in an adult manner by adults.

BG

[Guest BostonGuy]

>I think you miss the point of my soap box entirely, please

>re-read past messages for meaning. Negotiation is part of all

>business, I have never denied it. I merely contend that it's

>not up to the client because he has nothing at stake more than

>money in the matter which it is his right to pay or not to

>pay.

Ummm.. I need to kindly suggest that you are overlooking something critical. Above, you state that the client "has nothing at stake more than money". While this makes clear how you view what clients are bringing to the party, I have to assume that you value the money clients provide for, if you did not, one would assume you would not be doing what you are doing.

Further, when two parties exchange something in a commercial relationship, at the end of the day there is a tacit agreement between them that what they are exchanging is of equal value. If one party didn't believe that then they wouldn't be willing to go through with the exchange. Which means, of course, that at the bottom line you must believe that the money clients pay you is every bit as valuable as what you are providing them. And that then gives the lie to the statement that they "have nothing at stake more than money." And, because both parties are bring something that is necessarily of equal value (or the transaction wouldn't occur), both parties deserve the same respect from the other. Escort's don't get some special claim on not being offended.

Perhaps you've forgotten how hard some people work for money. Most people don't make $300 per hour. What you exchange an hour of your time for may have taken a client far more hours, doing whatever it is they do, to earn the money.

>Someone on the other board said I'm providing something

>to which I replied is the crux of my argument. I'm

>someone not something

That's irrelevant. Every one us brings someone to whatever it is we choose to do to make money. When we do it successfully, we earn money, which we then use to purchase goods and services. You are bringing yourself to your job, just like we all do, in order to make money. If you don't like what you do when you earn money, then choose another profession. But what you do to make money is not somehow more important or more personal that what any of us do when we bring our skills and knowledge and experience to whatever it is we do.

>

>>Which brings me to your friend's comment ("Are you kidding me, they

>>don't know what it's like to escort and they

>>never will. There's no way you can take any of them

>>seriously.") That can be interpreted in a number

>of ways.

>

>I'm interested in the other ways you interpret it. Please

>explain.

>

It could easily be interpreted as a put down of all clients ("you can never take any of them seriously.") I chose not to take it that way but it's easy to read it in that manner.

>>You may not like the comparison with electricians and lumbers

>>and lawyers, but I believe it's apt. You offer a service that

>>clients are purchasing and you absolutely negotiate the terms

>>of what you are willing to provide. You simply don't want to

>>negotiate your fees. No business does but most have to

>unless they are large and/or retail.

>

>We've used professional references as examples but again all

>those are in context. Having been around the block meaning

>you've had sex does not qualify you to sell it. Not having

>been an electrician etc. and having had sex are two completely

>different categories.

>

Sorry, I think that's just naive. In many ways, they are exactly the same. A client wants to obtain a service from a service provider and seeks to find a qualified person who can provide the desired service. They negotiate a price -- which may simply be the client accepting the provider's price or may entail further discussion -- and the provider then provides the service.

Further, when engaging an escort and engaging an electrician, it's far more important to me that the electrician be qualified and do a good job. If an escort turns out to be a lousy escort, all I've lost is a bit of my time and money... not really a big deal in any way. But when an electrician does a bad job my house or office building might burn down. So, to me, the services provided by electricians (and lawyers and doctors and my other service providers) are far, far more important than the services provided by escorts.

Finally, just what is it that you think makes one "qualified" to sell sex? It cannot be a hot body -- there are a fair number of older (and not so old) escorts who have middling bodies at best. It cannot be great sexual technique, for many escorts lack it. From these and other boards, we know that some escorts are fairly unpleasant and more than a few aren't totally honest. So what qualifications do you see as necessary to making one "qualified" to sell sex?

For me, I think there's just one qualification: a willingness to sell sex. A person who is willing to sell sex and finds buyers is, by definition, an escort. They may not be good or pleasant or honest, but they have become an escort. Escorts who decide to bring a fair degree of honesty and a pleasant personality into the mix will do better than those who don't. Escorts who are handsome or hot to some part of their target market will most likely do better than those who are not as handsome. But don't be fooled by this: a lot of very ordinary-looking guys are quite successful as escorts.

So, in the end, I don't believe that there are any particular qualifications necessary for one to be an escort or "to sell sex". You just have to be willing to do it.

This, of course, is far different than what is necessary to be an electrician or a plumber or a lawyer or a doctor or any one of a million other things. To be one of those things, you need expert knowledge in some area of expertise as well as, often, years of training and/or experience.

>Last I checked, filing a W-2 as a sex-worker wasn't quite as

>easy as doing so as an electrician or plumber. I negotiate

>quite regularly but on my terms because selling sex is selling

>me. I have the right to put a price on me, not you. You have

>the right to say what you think is fair and whether or not

>you're going to pay it.

>

You have the right to put a price on your services. But I have an equal right to put a price on what I am willing to pay for something I am considering buying. And my right is equal to your right.

>Consider it a Client Bill of Rights and an Escort Bill of

>Rights ... now there's an interesting thread that could be

>started. Although I vaguely recall something similar like

>"expectations" that started a massive war.

Well, perhaps, but the market will always be made up of tons of small transactions. I think clients and escorts should approach each other with honesty and respect. And I think both, in the end, should get off any high horses they might be riding and leave any attitude at the door.

BG

[TownsendPLocke]

Jeez Louise!

This has gotten so far off topic!

The Friend and I had a little chat.He swears he is not guilty of this-I will take him on his word till I here it from a reliable source otherwise.

On another subject.Even though he is NEVER MENTIONED by me in my original post.Scott Adler has used this thread as his personal soapbox/speakers corner.I do admire Scotts fortitude,intelegence,good looks and sense of fun and many other things about him(Deep throating Joe Bucks fat nine inches of tubular love stick without pausing for breath was a thing to behold)I fear that like many young fellas,he tends to be in the"it's all about me!"camp.

It isn't.

And unless you like to go round and round and round and round and round and round and round and ,,,,,,,"debating"with certain types of folks(so far I count 4 in this thread)is never going to have a "winning"outcome(surprise!)

So if the "debaters"in this post realize this-then go at it(yawn)but be assured-there will be no "winner"in this debate.

[Guest BostonGuy]

Who said anyone is looking to "win"?

The last I heard, these forums exist to facilitate discussion. Anyone who is bored with long discussions in general or with this one in particular should just stop reading.

BG

[TownsendPLocke]

That is fine,just know that you are being USED for another persons pleasure-and not even getting paid for it :+

[Guest BostonGuy]

LOL... it wouldn't be the first time!

BG

[KYTOP]

Since this thread ended up turning into a conversation about negotiating fees, and I really did not want to start a new thread about it, I thought I would make a note here.

Am I the only one that noted the narrative in Alex Morel's Escort Profile that is in today's top ten?

Link to his profile: http://www.maleescortreview.com/index.php?...rt_id=107010793

From his profile:

Hey , boy next door kind of look , well educated. laid back and polite. I know this is the part where technically I am expected to sell myself but I just hate doing this so let's just go to the point. I am available for hours , evenings and overnights. I don't have a fix rate and there's always room for negociation. However this negociation has to be done prior we meet just so both of us will explicitly know what to expect. I have more pictures t show upon request. Trust me guys, I am nice and very good at being very bad ****SERIOUS PEOPLE ONLY*****EMAILS ONLY (which I check daily)*****AVAILABLE TO TRAVEL WORLDWIDE (as long as it doesn't interfere with school)

[Guest ScottAdler]

>I don't have a fix rate and there's always room

>for negociation. However this negociation has to be done prior

>we meet just so both of us will explicitly know what to

>expect.

Good for him to be the one who initiates the negotiation

[Guest ScottAdler]

>Nah... all it says is something about how I view how escorts

>and clients should approach getting together with each other.

>What's "kinda sad" is when escorts try to convince

>older men that they really like them and really enjoy being

>with them, in order to encourage repeat business. That's

>called lying and I prefer the truth. Getting together with an

>escort can be a blast and I enjoy it very much. But I don't

>hide the reasons why I'm in the room and I don't want the

>escort to, either.

I think that's a little jaded. I mean my case may be different since I'm not doing it for "repeat business" as much as repeat good times. If I have fun with someone I'll let them know I enjoyed spending time with them. It's not that I'm leading them on giving them hopes of romance, just that I enjoyed my time with them and would like to do it again if they did too. I could be a bitch and just fuck to get off and leave but then I dont have fun, the client gets off and yeah I wont see them again. Like they say, it take three muscles in your face to smile and 100 to frown (ok not exactly but something like that). Whats the problem in being nice and everyone being happy as long as there's an obvious line drawn between romance and business of the erotic nature.

>Oh, I've seen you write this before. It's a poor attempt to

>somehow elevate yourself or others above those -- GASP! --

>prostitutes who frequent red-light districts. If I were you,

>I'm not sure I'd really want to walk too far down that

>analogy.

I wouldn't describe it as elevation strictly but if you must look at it that way you can. Like it or not there's sociological and empirical proof of a hierarchy in the sex-work industry. There's a higher likelihood of unsafe sex and drug usage in lower tier prostitutes than upper level. Why do you think street walkers in Vegas make $150/hr with a trick and the girls at the Bunny Ranch make $2500/hr with a client. There is a difference.

>Instead, I'm looking for an honest encounter. I'm

>happy to admit that the reason I hire escorts is because I

>enjoy meeting these guys and fooling around with them. I

>would hope that they would be equally happy to admit that the

>reason they are in the room is because they want the money.

>End of story.

But why can't honesty also include making people happy. Part of the psychology of many sex workers is a desire for approval and to please. Yes in most part it's about more money per hour than most other professions but there is a great deal of research out there proving that sex work raises self esteem. People may not necessarily be lying if their goal is to make sure you're happy.

>They don't need to convince me that there is

>some false romantic overtone going on. I'm more than

>satisfied with what they are honestly bringing to the party.

I agree ... lying about possible relationships and such is definitely crossing the line of hustling. If I feel someone is getting too close I let them know as much. As demonstrated by a thread I started almost a year ago, I'd rather lose a regular client by reminding him that our relationship can't turn romantic rather than lead him on and make him believe something that isn't true. But there is certainly a gray area in between.

>No, I don't think I'm doing anyone harm. Being honest about

>your life and why you are engaging in certain activities

>cannot be harmful, except perhaps to some of one's fantasies.

It's why god invented white lies and actors. It's part of the business. I don't know about you but if someone gave me the idea that they were using me and made no buts about it, I'd feel kinda turned off. There's honest and brutally honest. Again, another gray area I guess we're disagreeing on.

> From an intellectual point of view, there is much about

>prostitution -- which is, after all, what we're talking about

>here -- that is potentially harmful for both parties. Clients

>are often in a position of great vulnerability. They are

>often old, sometimes isolated (especially from the gay

>community), very often lonely. They are easy prey for guys

>who want to convince them that they are younger than they

>think, lots of fun and, above all, desirable.

But that's the point. If someone gets in too deep it's up to the escort's morals to make sure everything stays realistic. I think assuming that there should be nothing beyond business is more damaging than anything else because it defeats the purpose of an ESCORT encounter but I think works for picking someone up on the side of the road. And that's where I believe there really is another difference (and why there's an entire newsgroup for Los Angeles about street cruising -- here too I think) in comparing the two aspects of the industry.

>Engaging in this kind of fantasy can be fun and there's

>nothing wrong with it, so long as you keep in context. When a

>client starts believing the fantasy, it's become harmful, in

>my opinion. It's easy and loads of fun to get together with

>escorts without needing to convince yourself that they have

>just become a potential new boyfriend.

I couldn't agree more.

>People who think negotiating is

>unpleasant are almost invariably those who have little

>experience with it.

Babe I'm Jewish. (Oh and before everyone starts bitching me out for that one LIGHTEN UP I'm Jewish -- and watch Borat -- LOL)

>Escorts need to keep in mind that these are commercial

>relationships and they are doing what they are doing to make

>money. That's it, plain and simple. If they are not

>comfortable negotiating an agreement that's satisfying to both

>parties, well, they simply haven't learned much yet about

>business. That's probably not in their best interest.

I'm not saying (and never have said) that negotiations have no place in escorting ... I'm saying it's not up to the client to initiate it ... plain and simple.

>In return, an escort can make any offer or suggestion back to

>me. I won't be offended -- if you're willing to make

>suggestions to another party in a negotiation without fear

>that they might be offended, then you have to be willing to

>offer the same thing in return and I do. It's called an adult

>discussion.

You should be considerate about others and the price they have set for THEMSELVES not their services at this point. You're dealing with people not just a service provider. It's called respect.

>But we disagree on your major premise, which is that it

>matters whether or not the escort is offended when someone

>offers to negotiate some kind of fair deal with them. You

>think it's important and I think it's not, because I see these

>as commercial transactions that should be discussed in an

>adult manner by adults.

And I'm pointing out that when the negotiation has nothing to do with you aquiring anything beyond an experience with a person that only they can give you, you have to realize that it's not a simple commercial transaction. The point is (and I rarely say this) when dealing with someone's personal feelings or assigned self worth, your opinion doesn't count until they ask you to give it.

[Guest ScottAdler]

>Ummm.. I need to kindly suggest that you are overlooking

>something critical. Above, you state that the client

>"has nothing at stake more than money". While this

>makes clear how you view what clients are bringing to the

>party, I have to assume that you value the money clients

>provide for, if you did not, one would assume you would not be

>doing what you are doing.

I'm referring to what's being considered in the hypothetical negotiation.

>Further, when two parties exchange something in a commercial

>relationship, at the end of the day there is a tacit agreement

>between them that what they are exchanging is of equal value.

> If one party didn't believe that then they wouldn't be

>willing to go through with the exchange. Which means, of

>course, that at the bottom line you must believe that the

>money clients pay you is every bit as valuable as what you are

>providing them. And that then gives the lie to the statement

>that they "have nothing at stake more than money."

>And, because both parties are bring something that is

>necessarily of equal value (or the transaction wouldn't

>occur), both parties deserve the same respect from the other.

>Escort's don't get some special claim on not being offended.

You keep calling it a commercial relationship. What's the product? What's the "service?" It's time. While that may be naive to say but in the literal sense it's the main premise. A person is selling themselves in the form of their time and only they can give you themselves -- hence a rate they have set.

Any client can bring money to the table...only that escort can bring themselves. Hence the ongoing addage, if you dont like the price -- go to someone else.

>Perhaps you've forgotten how hard some people work for money.

>Most people don't make $300 per hour. What you exchange an

>hour of your time for may have taken a client far more hours,

>doing whatever it is they do, to earn the money.

If everyone could pay for it whenever they felt like it then it wouldn't be such a "luxury service" that people treat themselves to would it

It's supply and demand, if you can find that many hot guy to do it for less than go for it but until then ... that's just the way it works

>But what you do to make money is not somehow more

>important or more personal that what any of us do when we

>bring our skills and knowledge and experience to whatever it

>is we do.

Did you really just say that? I'm sorry ... I think what I do is far more personal than a lawyer researching precedent or a doctor conferring with a medical journal. You overstepped a little with that one

>It could easily be interpreted as a put down of all clients

>("you can never take any of them seriously.") I

>chose not to take it that way but it's easy to read it in that

>manner.

I know what you meant in that sense. How is it a put down as opposed to a truth? If someone hasn't walked a mile in your shoes they can't judge how your blisters feel.

>Sorry, I think that's just naive. In many ways, they are

>exactly the same. A client wants to obtain a service from a

>service provider and seeks to find a qualified person who can

>provide the desired service. They negotiate a price -- which

>may simply be the client accepting the provider's price or may

>entail further discussion -- and the provider then provides

>the service.

This is getting repetitive ... see below

>Further, when engaging an escort and engaging an electrician,

>it's far more important to me that the electrician be

>qualified and do a good job. If an escort turns out to be a

>lousy escort, all I've lost is a bit of my time and money...

>not really a big deal in any way. But when an electrician

>does a bad job my house or office building might burn down.

>So, to me, the services provided by electricians (and lawyers

>and doctors and my other service providers) are far, far more

>important than the services provided by escorts.

LOL ... touche but that in and of itself should show you that one is not more important than the other -- they're just two DIFFERENT types of service and the aspects of negotiation and value are incomparable.

>Finally, just what is it that you think makes one

>"qualified" to sell sex? It cannot be a hot body --

>there are a fair number of older (and not so old) escorts who

>have middling bodies at best. It cannot be great sexual

>technique, for many escorts lack it. From these and other

>boards, we know that some escorts are fairly unpleasant and

>more than a few aren't totally honest. So what qualifications

>do you see as necessary to making one "qualified" to

>sell sex?

See above The qualifications are someone who wants "you." If you're not wanted you're in the wrong industry.

>You have the right to put a price on your services. But I

>have an equal right to put a price on what I am willing to pay

>for something I am considering buying. And my right is equal

>to your right.

Yes you do. Of course you can put a price on what you're willing to pay. What I am contending is that if your price and that quotes to you don't jive you DONT have the right to tell the escort they are worth what YOU will pay them. It's up to them to decide if they want to lower their rates for you. It just comes down to respect.

> I think clients and escorts should

>approach each other with honesty and respect.

I guess what we are disagreeing on in the end is what respect is.