Hooker spoiling it for everyone!

[TownsendPLocke]

There is a kid I know and like.He is a great guy and probably well worth the big bucks he charges gets for his time.

The problem is that he is pretty social with a lot of "working boys"and he manages to convince them that they should charge the same high rates as he does-even if it is not in the kids best interest to do so.

There is at least one young fella that is not doing such great buisness at this high rate-and he is honest enough about that-but he refuses to charge a reasonable fee for his services.

I am looking right now at two fellas-John in Baltimore http://daddysreviews.com/area.php?loc=6266...=john_baltimore

And JasonK in Witchita http://www.men4rentnow.com/ds/index.asp?cm...3&Login=Jasonk4

Both seem great-and both of them are charging very reasonable fees.I bet their phones are always busy wile the boys waiting for the big bucks are kinda hungry-and wondering how the rent is going to get paid.

So how do I tactfully tell my friend that he might be doing more harm than good with these fellas-and not everyone is going to be a succesful as he is?

[AdamSmith]

Just my experience -- few things annoy escorts more than clients telling them how to run their business.

I've tried not to make that mistake myself, but have gotten the occasional earful about it when someone else did.

[Guest BostonGuy]

I've maintained just about forever that there is a simple way of dealing with escorts who charge rates that are too high: don't hire them. There are tons of guys out there, with new guys showing up all the time.

If someone wants to charge a high rate, more power to them. If you inquire and their rate is too high, let them know the reason you won't be hiring them. I've found that far more than half of the time I get a counteroffer and we negotiate something that I think is reasonable.

It makes sense that people want to charge as much as they can; I would, too. Unfortunately, a fair number of clients seem to like the "worship" angle and end up filling escorts' heads with nonsense about how incredible they are. After hearing enough of this, some escorts start to believe it and lose all sense of perspective. (I've heard some escorts claim in all seriousness that their services were more valuable than what is provided by a lawyer or doctor and should be compensated at higher rates.)

Fortunately, not hiring the expensive ones tends to also weed out the guys who have lost all real sense of reality.

To get back to the exact thrust of your question, the escort who is convincing other escorts to raise their rates is trying to reduce the competition by eliminating lower rates. If escorts find their business slow when they raise their rates, you might point out to them that lowering rates is a time-honored way of increasing market share in most businesses.

Regards,

BG

[Guest epigonos]

Hey TownsendPLocke I am serious about what I am going to say. You obviously are a much nicer and more concerned client than I am. This issue is simply one with which I don't concern myself. IMO if the escort you are concerned about knows that he isn't getting as many calls as he would like because of his high rates and still refused to lower them -- so be it. If the day comes that he can't make the rent or his car payment that is his problem. When he is out on the street without a car he will at least have the satisfaction of knowing that he didn't compromise.

[BenjaminNicholas]

I also know a certain escort who enjoys telling every single twink he meets that he's not charging enough and that they need to jack their prices up sky-high.

Ultimately, every single guy he's mentored hasn't stayed in the industry for very long or has really yet to make his mark with either stellar reviews or top-notch marketing... And still they charge upwards of $300/hr. It's bullshit.

Escorts cannot continually CREATE business on the laws of supply and demand. People have to want to contact you. It makes no sense that just because the item on the shelf is priced higher also means that it's that much better. In the world of escorting, you've got to show stability, social maturity, consistency, sex appeal and intellect. More common than most escorts are willing to admit, many working guys are quick to scale-down their rate when they know they have bills to pay and not enough clientele to cover the costs. A surefire sign of too-high rates or simply just not enough reviews to make it worth the cost-to-risk ratio.

All of that being said...

My rates as an escort are, yes, on the higher side. I provide a good experience for those i see and 95% of what i do is mostly longer-term engagement. If it happened that the demand for my time went down, i would adjust my rates accordingly. That's just good common sense. I wouldn't see any reason to continue to charge as if my schedule was packed 2-3 months in advance. I think that would eventually lead to shooting ones self in the foot.

BN

[Lucky]

Someone's ears must be burning!

[TotallyOz]

Scott is one of the few that can get the fees he charges. Ben and Scott take escorting to another level. I am not saying they are excellent in bed as I have not been with Ben. I am saying that they know how to get publicity and regardless of what anyone says, the more anyone talks about them, the more clients they will get.

There will always be a group of men who are willing and able to pay high prices for escorts. When there is someone I want to see, I will do the same. I may not go back for seconds and third's but that is my choice.

I met a lad once in Prague that was the cutest thing I had ever seen. I asked him to spend the night with me and I paid him more than most high-end escorts in the USA make. I had the time of my life with him and I did not regret the money I spent on him.

I have always wanted to meet Athan from LA. I have tried on my trip to LA to see him on many occasions but he was never available. I would have paid top dollar for him as I have had him on my mind for a few years.

When I am in Brazil I have always paid top dollar at the saunas. I have also never been turned down by any guy there. Most are more than eager to go with me but the prices are pretty set by the area. The Internet changes those dynamics. It gives savvy escorts the ability to shine. For those like Ben who are writers and creative, it gives them a chance to really take advantage of the medium for their main source of business income.

I have always said that if the price is too much for you, just hire someone else. I hope that most escorts don't start asking for what a few of them are now asking. If they do, it gives me much more reason to visit Brazil more often. However, I don't begrudge anyone from maximizing their earning potential.

Personally, I think a smarter escort would see that if he can get 10 more clients a month with a slightly less rate then it is worth it to keep the price reasonable. If the escort is only looking for a few calls a month, they really don't care about that.

[Lucky]

Oz, I thought Townie was complaining about the hooker in question encouraging other young escorts to charge high rates...to their detriment. He wasn't challenging the hooker in question's right to charge whatever he wants for himself.

If the younger hookers are so stupid as to follow such advice, then maybe the hooker in question is actually doing them the favor of showing them the door before they are too long in the wrong profession!

[KYTOP]

You make some very good points. The main one I think being that if an Escort can gain some experience and a good reputation, then supply allows him to charge a higher rate. Someone new trying to charge high rates without that reputation or developed client base is another matter. You stated it well.

[TotallyOz]

I hope all new young working boys will listen to advice from those that are successful as well as those clients that hire often. When anyone goes into a new field, they will get lots of advice from many. The smart ones listen to all and then make an intelligent decision.

I hope that boys don't listen to other boys advice to their detriment. If they overprice themselves, hopefully they will realize the mistake and then readjust. Many boys come out of retirement and still get many clients. I am sure that many who adjust their prices will also get many clients. Those of us that are old and been around the block a few times realize that the guys change their mind and we need to just roll with the flow.

[Guest BostonGuy]

Agreed.

I'd also suggest that while a few escorts grab a lot of attention at any given time, there are lots of guys out there who aren't high profile, aren't jaded and don't charge high fees.

My experience has been that these part-time escorts are usually more fun than the pros, if for no other reason than they haven't been there 1,000 times before. Oddly enough, it's also been my experience that the part-timers (who are often still in college or just out of it) are the ones who also more likely to want to continue an informal friendship over a long period of time.

There are several guys I still see occasionally when I'm in their part of the country. They all stopped seeking clients a while ago. I met one of them six years ago in LA. I think I'm his only client at this point. He's like an old friend, lots of fun and he still charges me $150. Another guy in LA is a great masseur and I try to see him when I'm out there. I met him nine years ago, when he was 19. I don't think he has many other clients left, either, if any -- he's off on another career entirely, now. But it's a real pleasure getting together with him.

Instead of paying $300 or $350 per hour, I encourage guys to seek out the "undiscovered gold in them thar hills" and give a newcomer a try.

BG

[Guest ScottAdler]

I would never presume something is about me but since some have decided to indicate this might about me ( ) I felt that I should respond in context. The following will be responded to under the presumption that has already been made that Townsend is referring to me.

First off, I would never indirectly or directly badmouth another escort no matter what the circumstances or context of a thread. If you can't say something productive toward the thread it's probably better not to say anything about another person rather than denigrate a colleague. I'd like to think I'm above that unlike some ... just a theory. Even below I make a comment that could almost be construed as an insult but it's mostly a clarification. Even though the escort in question and I no longer see eye to eye, it does neither of us any good for one or the other to critique the "value" of the other's contributions to this community.

Next, Townsend should know better than anyone especially over the past couple weeks that he can talk to me about anything and has thus far. I’m pretty easy to talk to about stuff like that. In specific situations like this, I would have been able to shed light on the situations details that aren’t public that might be relevant.

The overall theme that I’m noticing here is an assumption that myself or whatever escort in question is telling these new boys that they have to charge high rates to be taken seriously etc. When guys ask me about breaking into the industry I help them out in whatever way that I can in terms of marketing, answering questions about protocol, and even discussing their rates.

I don’t discuss my rates with other escorts unless it becomes necessary for a three-way or something. This is part of the reason. The reason I escort and the reason many boys become escorts are very different. When people ask what their rates should be, I tell them what the going rates are for a given city and that if they need money and intend on escorting as a sole source of income they should keep their rates in that range. FURTHERMORE I tell them that as beginners they shouldn’t expect to charge anywhere near that until they’ve developed some credibility.

Three out of the four escorts that I’ve sponsored or promoted had already been in the industry at their own rates and just needed a little exposure. One of whom had/has rates that even I’m shocked at considering his look and after a the Rentboy cruise I hope he’s started to reconsider. Then there are some that are young, naïve, and willful that I’m no longer in touch with that no matter what was told to them and by whom about setting high rates they’ve insisted on being comparable to me for their own ego.

The point is I would never encourage guys to keep their rates in the stratosphere if it didn’t work for them. If they’re complaining, they KNOW what they can do to get more business – it doesn’t take an East Coast education to understand supply and demand. BN makes a point that at some point it’s no longer supply and demand; however when starting out, that’s all that it is.

In closing … before people choose to jump to conclusions they really should know the entire story. For a change though, some in our community choose to attack rather than inquire.

[Guest comment]

>There is a kid I know and like.He is a great guy and probably

>well worth the big bucks he charges gets for his time.

>The problem is that he is pretty social with a lot of

>"working boys"and he manages to convince them that

>they should charge the same high rates as he does-even if it

>is not in the kids best interest to do so.

>There is at least one young fella that is not doing such great

>buisness at this high rate-and he is honest enough about

>that-but he refuses to charge a reasonable fee for his

>services.

I don't really see the problem you mention. If an escort is advising other companions to increase their fee and they do so that is their choice.

The escort you state that increased his fee, has little business but refuses to reduce his fee isn't the brightest star in the galaxy. Eventually he'll adjust his fee or find another profession.

Townsend the subject line you selected, "Hooker spoiling it for everyone!" has me somewhat puzzled. Just who is everyone? The escorts raising their fees will either maintain business or not, the clients will decide if the escort services have enough merit to validate the charges, the "hooker" who is pushing his peers to use a higher fee will either gain or lose respect within the community.

[TownsendPLocke]

Hmmmmm-such a claravoyent bunch we have here!And just like John Edwards(the "psychic -not the hillbilly holy roller presidential candidate)you fellas are just shooting in the dark.

I know and communicate with a lot of working boys-I mentioned no names and would never spoil a confidence between myself and one of these fellas.

Some(and please note I wrote some-not all) of the pretty young things that decide to supplement their income by selling some"time" are,like a lot of youngsters,either ego driven or do no have a fully developed logic system yet.We all know youths who like to be flattered-and that has been exploited by pimps,pornograprers,talent agents,and employers for ages.

Therefore a bright young thing might just make a big impression on these fellas-to do something that is not in their best interest.The young can be very stubborn to admit they have made a mistake and then go out and fix that mistake.

Why should I care?I really don't as I have zip interest in hiring these cute young things-they bore me to tears for the most part-give me a man with a little experience,and one who is not so vunerable as most of these boys.Just trying to make conversation here-this place needs a little stirring up.

To Totally Oz-If I wanted to start a thread titled"Rich website owner spoiling it for everybody in otherwise affordable foreign lands"I would have done so ;-) But I belive that was done somewher else far away in a different time.

[TotallyOz]

>To Totally Oz-If I wanted to start a thread titled"Rich

>website owner spoiling it for everybody in otherwise

>affordable foreign lands"I would have done so ;-) But I

>belive that was done somewher else far away in a different

>time.

Time goes forward and so do ideas. As I have said, I don't think I spoil anything for you or other clients. I also don't think those that charge high dollar spoils it for that group. Everyone who hires and who hires out are able to command different prices. I have been in the business a long time and I know the vast difference that guys charge and clients pay or even tip. It is to each his own. It is not a spoiling effect IMHO. But, everyone is entitled to his own opinion. In my statement above, it was not about me or tips but about how the internet changes that medium. In the same sauna I have paid one guy in Brazil 50 R for a short time, he is now in the net working for a Rio escort service. His rates are 3-4 times what he charges in the sauna.

If I brougth this guy to NYC, he would be able to charge and get 3-4 times his agency rate. At any point along that line a client can say yes or no. I don't begrudge a guy for what his rates are and when they change one way or another.

I guess my response to your first question in the thread should have been: Express your opinion to your friend. Let others express theirs and let him make the best decision for himself and then you decide if he will remain someone you will hire or you need to move on. It is not personal, it is often just business.

[TownsendPLocke]

>I would never presume something is about me but since some

>have decided to indicate this might about me ( ) I felt

>that I should respond in context. The following will be

>responded to under the presumption that has already been made

>that Townsend is referring to me.

>

>First off, I would never indirectly or directly badmouth

>another escort no matter what the circumstances or context of

>a thread. If you can't say something productive toward the

>thread it's probably better not to say anything about another

>person rather than denigrate a colleague. I'd like to think

>I'm above that unlike some ... just a theory. Even below I

>make a comment that could almost be construed as an insult but

>it's mostly a clarification. Even though the escort in

>question and I no longer see eye to eye, it does neither of us

>any good for one or the other to critique the

>"value" of the other's contributions to this

>community.

>

>Next, Townsend should know better than anyone especially over

>the past couple weeks that he can talk to me about anything

>and has thus far. I’m pretty easy to talk to about stuff like

>that. In specific situations like this, I would have been

>able to shed light on the situations details that aren’t

>public that might be relevant.

>

>The overall theme that I’m noticing here is an assumption that

>myself or whatever escort in question is telling these new

>boys that they have to charge high rates to be taken seriously

>etc. When guys ask me about breaking into the industry I help

>them out in whatever way that I can in terms of marketing,

>answering questions about protocol, and even discussing their

>rates.

>

>I don’t discuss my rates with other escorts unless it becomes

>necessary for a three-way or something. This is part of the

>reason. The reason I escort and the reason many boys become

>escorts are very different. When people ask what their rates

>should be, I tell them what the going rates are for a given

>city and that if they need money and intend on escorting as a

>sole source of income they should keep their rates in that

>range. FURTHERMORE I tell them that as beginners they

>shouldn’t expect to charge anywhere near that until they’ve

>developed some credibility.

>

>Three out of the four escorts that I’ve sponsored or promoted

>had already been in the industry at their own rates and just

>needed a little exposure. One of whom had/has rates that even

>I’m shocked at considering his look and after a the Rentboy

>cruise I hope he’s started to reconsider. Then there are some

>that are young, naïve, and willful that I’m no longer in touch

>with that no matter what was told to them and by whom about

>setting high rates they’ve insisted on being comparable to me

>for their own ego.

>

>The point is I would never encourage guys to keep their rates

>in the stratosphere if it didn’t work for them. If they’re

>complaining, they KNOW what they can do to get more business –

>it doesn’t take an East Coast education to understand supply

>and demand. BN makes a point that at some point it’s no

>longer supply and demand; however when starting out, that’s

>all that it is.

>

>In closing … before people choose to jump to conclusions they

>really should know the entire story. For a change though,

>some in our community choose to attack rather than inquire.

Very well put Scott.

But please don;t presume that my post was about you-despite Totally Oz's overly quick presumption of the same.

I mentioned no names-and am keeping this a "blind" Item.

To BN-soap boxes can be pretty slippery places if you are not on sure footing so be careful!

[Guest ScottAdler]

>I mentioned no names-and am keeping this a "blind"

>Item.

Thank you for that but as I've been pretty adamant about over the years ... blind items are more detrimental than a factual assertion. They lead to rumors and assumptions because "Page Six" invented them that way ... for the purpose of malice.

Some people use blind items to make themselves feel superior, some for the sake of socially acceptable attack -- others for both. I never would have thought and know that you aren't that type of person, it's just the way things work.

[Guest Riptide]

>I would never presume something is about me but since some

>have decided to indicate this might about me ( ) I felt

>that I should respond in context. The following will be

>responded to under the presumption that has already been made

>that Townsend is referring to me.

Translation: I would never presume publicly that something was about me even though I really do presume that it is about me, and since I can pre-qualify my response here by stating that it’s not my presumption, but another posters spoken presumption, I’ll respond in context under that which has already been expressed by another as a presumptive presumption. :-)

Pookie, Pookie Pookie. Thanks for clarifying the fact that your ass is burning over this, not so much over Townsend’s remarks, but isn't it really about Ben’s remarks?

>First off, I would never indirectly or directly badmouth

>another escort no matter what the circumstances or context of

>a thread. If you can't say something productive toward the

>thread it's probably better not to say anything about another

>person rather than denigrate a colleague. I'd like to think

>I'm above that unlike some ... just a theory.

But you’re not Scott, and your past public postings over at the other saloon about Ben demonstrate that. The thread was authored by you, and you took Ben to task publicly because he refused to respond to your countless private emails about his behavior in outing a west coast escort with HIV that many might have presumed WAS you. You were mad at Ben, and when he ignored you, you went public. I’m sure you recall the soapbox. So Scott, if we’re going to be real here, it really should start with you dear.

>Next, Townsend should know better than anyone especially over

>the past couple weeks that he can talk to me about anything

>and has thus far. I’m pretty easy to talk to about stuff like

>that. In specific situations like this, I would have been

>able to shed light on the situations details that aren’t

>public that might be relevant.

If Townsend “should know better than anyone especially over the past couple weeks that he can talk to me about anything and has thus far” why then would you publicly presume this thread speaks about you and why would he do something this public to make you defensive?

>The overall theme that I’m noticing here is an assumption that

>myself or whatever escort in question is telling these new

>boys that they have to charge high rates to be taken seriously

>etc. When guys ask me about breaking into the industry I help

>them out in whatever way that I can in terms of marketing,

>answering questions about protocol, and even discussing their

>rates.

>Three out of the four escorts that I’ve sponsored or promoted had already been in the industry at their own rates and just needed a little exposure.

There is a big difference Scott, in my view at least, between mentoring and sponsoring. You appear to be doing some of both. When you mentor someone, it’s usually, at least in my experience, between you and another individual who is walking through a door of which you have already successfully passed. It’s usually kind of a private thing between the two and the payoff for the mentor is seeing the other flourish and succeed. But when you sponsor or promote, there’s a personal payoff for you at the end which changes that dynamic greatly. Events are sponsored and promoted. NASCAR is sponsored and promoted. Sometimes, it’s difficult to even see the car or driver through all the sponsorships and promotion on the outside of the car. You can do one without public scrutiny OR presumption, but not both. I suspect it’s your call as to what is the most important thing for you. If it is both, then prepare yourself for defending your every action. You put yourself out there and don’t expect people like Ben, or the likes of Ben, who thrive on exposing other people’s activities for their own self promotion to be absent from visiting you. If you do things for the right reasons and for the betterment of other people, then there really is never a need to publicly defend or explain yourself to others. The only really important people that matter are those who already know this through their personal reception and appreciation of the action.

>In closing … before people choose to jump to conclusions they

>really should know the entire story. For a change though,

>some in our community choose to attack rather than inquire.

I agree. But haven’t you just done what you have just stated people should not do? That being jumping to conclusions or Presumptive conclusion before you really have all the facts?

Sometimes, the greater good we receive from others, has come from them, to us, through selfless and silent mentors whose only agenda was indeed, the greater good of us all.

Peace Pookie.

[Guest ScottAdler]

>Translation: I would never presume publicly that something was

>about me even though I really do presume that it is about me,

>and since I can pre-qualify my response here by stating that

>it’s not my presumption, but another posters spoken

>presumption, I’ll respond in context under that which has

>already been expressed by another as a presumptive

>presumption. :-)

I know as evidenced by your insanely psychotic response to BN in another thread that you have no capacity at interpretation of anything beyond literal writing. My “presumption” was a sarcastic comment saying that it couldn’t POSSIBLY be me. Think of OJ winking at the world by saying, “I didn’t do it but if I’d done it …”

>But you’re not Scott, and your past public postings over at

>the other saloon about Ben demonstrate that. The thread was

>authored by you, and you took Ben to task publicly because he

>refused to respond to your countless private emails about his

>behavior in outing a west coast escort with HIV that many

>might have presumed WAS you. You were mad at Ben, and when he

>ignored you, you went public. I’m sure you recall the soapbox.

>So Scott, if we’re going to be real here, it really should

>start with you dear.

LOL since when are you defending BN. First Global Warming and now this? Where are the other twohorsemen? I of course recall the soap box and that’s precisely what I’m talking about. If I have a problem with someone for attacking other escorts for the sake of personal gain, I’ve got no problem calling them out on it. I don’t hide behind a blind item or a vague poignant reference.

>If Townsend “should know better than anyone especially over

>the past couple weeks that he can talk to me about anything

>and has thus far” why then would you publicly presume this

>thread speaks about you and why would he do something this

>public to make you defensive?

I’m not being defensive so much as providing more details that weren’t available at the time. I publicly presume because others already have and the description of the situation can closely parallel situations of my own.

>There is a big difference Scott, in my view at least, between

>mentoring and sponsoring. You appear to be doing some of both.

>When you mentor someone, it’s usually, at least in my

>experience, between you and another individual who is walking

>through a door of which you have already successfully passed.

>It’s usually kind of a private thing between the two and the

>payoff for the mentor is seeing the other flourish and

>succeed. But when you sponsor or promote, there’s a personal

>payoff for you at the end which changes that dynamic greatly.

>Events are sponsored and promoted. NASCAR is sponsored and

>promoted. Sometimes, it’s difficult to even see the car or

>driver through all the sponsorships and promotion on the

>outside of the car. You can do one without public scrutiny OR

>presumption, but not both. I suspect it’s your call as to what

>is the most important thing for you. If it is both, then

>prepare yourself for defending your every action. You put

>yourself out there and don’t expect people like Ben, or the

>likes of Ben, who thrive on exposing other people’s activities

>for their own self promotion to be absent from visiting you.

>If you do things for the right reasons and for the betterment

>of other people, then there really is never a need to publicly

>defend or explain yourself to others. The only really

>important people that matter are those who already know this

>through their personal reception and appreciation of the

>action.

It was a poor word choice in my search for a synonym but since you’ve defined it so eloquently, there is a level of sponsorship in guys that I mentor. By helping guys become good escorts it does help my job get easier in terms of threeways in the area and having RELIABLE substitutes that I can recommend to my regulars when I’m out of town. So often in this community is there a competitive nature in which escorts fear client stealing or worse. As Rick Munroe mentioned elsewhere, it’s hard to find non-competitive individuals and I’m always happy to find others like me like him in that respect. The guys that I’ve tried to help understand that clients like variety and I don’t mind sharing the business with them when I’m out of town or even when I’m still here

>I agree. But haven’t you just done what you have just stated

>people should not do? That being jumping to conclusions or

>Presumptive conclusion before you really have all the facts?

There’s a difference in making an assertion based on facts given on attacking based on facts not in evidence.

[AdamSmith]

>Thank you for that but as I've been pretty adamant about over

>the years ... blind items are more detrimental than a factual

>assertion. They lead to rumors and assumptions because

>"Page Six" invented them that way ... for the

>purpose of malice.

Absolutely. Named vs. blind is like sharpshooting vs. shotgun. Big likelihood that innocent bystanders will get peppered.

[Guest twinklover]

"So how do I tactfully tell my friend that he might be doing more harm than good with these fellas...." Well, you've certainly told the blind and mysterious "him," loud and clear (I can't say how"tactfully"--lol). This assumes he reads this thread, as most of us believe he has.

First of all, I applaud BN, something I don't often do, for taking a balanced and reasonable view of this matter.

I have commented before on the outrageous fees charged by certain escorts. I need not repeat my opinion here, except to say this. While certain escorts may find "negotiating" over fees to be "demeaning," there is another side to the coin. I, as a client, find it "demeaning" to be viewed as a stupid, ignorant, walking ATM that will pay unreasonable fees for services. Don't worry. I would never bother to negotiate or even inquire about the inflated fees quoted by certain escorts. I could give a shit about the money or the difference in money between a fair fee and an unreasonable fee. It's not about money. It's about how certain escorts are absolutely insulting to some potential customers who make inquiries about fees in good faith. They bite the hands that feed them. Fine. Let these escorts just shoot themselves in the foot.

[Guest BostonGuy]

I've posted before that I think escorts who complain that negotiating fees is demeaning to them are simply displaying naiveté, not realizing how powerful a tool negotiation can be in helping them reach whatever goals they have. Such is often the case with the young.

But some, surely, use the "demeaning" argument as a club, in an attempt to bully clients into not questioning fees. If you've ever listened to escorts talking together about clients for any length of time, you've probably come to the conclusion -- as you intimate above -- that at least some escorts feel no compunction whatsoever about speaking of clients in a demeaning way.

And before certain escorts come on to protest that what they are selling is too important or too valuable or too personal to negotiate away, let me add that people around the world routinely negotiate deals for all kinds of items, including things that are equally personal and, in many cases, far more valuable.

If truth were told, most escorts don't want to negotiate because they see it as a way for clients to reduce their fees and they, reasonably, don't want to reduce their fees if they don't have to. But negotiation can and should lead to situations where each party is happy and can often lead to surprising results. Shutting it down before it even starts by calling it demeaning is not only naive but also a good way of keeping opportunity from knocking.

I'll point out kindly with the best of intentions that every single escort is already negotiating for their time, each and every time they quote a rate and have it accepted or declined. What some escorts protest is a continuation of the negotiation -- there can be no real argument that there has been no negotiation at all.

In fact, to take it one step further: most escorts ask that clients express what they are looking for clearly, in advance of the meeting, often in the most graphic terms possible. The escorts will then respond with suggestions or acceptance or lack thereof. So what the escorts are involved in is the discussion of the terms of a transaction or agreement -- namely, the services that will be provided. By definition, they are negotiating what they will provide. Escorts seem quite comfortable with this side of the negotiation. It's only when it comes to what they will receive that they stand on a high horse and claim that negotiation is demeaning and should never even be mentioned -- God forbid! -- by the client.

Well, that's just nuts, as far as I'm concerned, not to mention one-sided and demeaning to clients. So I often happily negotiate terms with escorts, almost always with happy results all around and I encourage all clients to do the same. Unless, of course, an escort is willing to simply accept a client's list of services to be provided and the manner in which they will be provided with no question and without negotiation regarding those matters.

BG

[Guest twinklover]

I came home tonight to find BG's post on this thread and a flame now added. Yes, this is a hot topic but not because of anything BG or I have said. Even Lucky did not mention any flames, merely smoke or steam coming out of certain person's ears.

BG, I could not agree with you more, and I don't think I could have said it better. This is one of the best posts you ever made and I have read your posts on at least two other sites for what, 8 or 9 or more years now.

Of course, I'm biased. I'm a client, not an escort. And I see this issue as a client. But I am a firm believer with BG that discussing fees, yes, negotiating fees, including amounts, time and services, back and forth, is not only appropriate. It's also not "demeaning" and it leads to many mutually happy encounters--encounters that would not have occurred but for these negotiations. I have been hiring escorts longer than certain escorts have been alive. It's my experience that 95% or more of the time that an escort shows unwillingness to discuss fees (or worse insults the client for bringing up the subject) the client gets a bad deal, one way or another, not a win-win. Now "certain escorts" and the young escorts they "mentor" and "sponsor" could possibly be exceptions to the 95% rule. All I know for sure is I'll never hire them and find out.

[Guest BostonGuy]

Thanks, Twink! You've always been one of my favorites. :-)

Seek... LOL

[Guest ScottAdler]

One sided and demeaning to clients ... hmmm ... yes that's one way to look at it but we're not discussing how clients feel on this topic are we?

The post seemed like an excellent way to turn things around and misappropriate context as to the idea -- negotiating FEES.

This was posted to me on the other review board and I felt my response to his summary of this post could aptly be posted here:

>That you choose not to negotiate your fee is a business

>decision that you've made and evidently works for you, but

>keep in mind negotiating all aspects of a session incuding the

>fee has been going on long before you entered the business and

>will continue to go on long after you've retired. The business

>practices you've chosen don't necessarily work for everyone

>else. If a client begins to cross the line you've established,

>you can choose to accept it as just another quirk of doing

>business (after all, this is a business transaction for you,

>isn't it?) and deal with it in a business-like manner or you

>can take it as a personal affront.

Thank you for your summary of BG's post that can be addressed by a simple head nod. What you as clients don't seem to understand is that no matter how much of a "business" transaction you WANT to turn it into ... it's far more than that.

It IS personal. If it weren't personal then every twink in the country could/would do it and there really wouldn't even be market rate because there'd be no market ... it would all basically be a free for all. Of course the TERMS are negotiated but the price is set by the escort. Who are you as the client to tell them that they have to bargain. What many do not understand is that I am not opposed to the entity of bargaining, I do it myself when I feel it's warranted. A client is picking up an extended air ticket for me to stay past our appointment in a certain city, multiple days, other reasons. But the choice to bargain IS UP TO THE ESCORT.

If you want to bring it back to a business transaction -- what you think is "fair" is like walking into Bestbuy and seeing a brand new top of the line plasma for $5000 and saying I'll give you $3000 for it. They'd think you were nuts. The store puts things on sale, not the consumer. What I've seen over the years on this board when clients complain about rates being too high is this sense of entitlement. They "deserve" escorts for whatever price they see fit as if they are the ONLY ones with a checking account and expendable income. It's not the case.

I totally respect your opinion about what aspects of this "business" warrant negotiations but frankly it can't be taken seriously until you've walked a mile in our chaps. I had a client reently that used to be an escort and now hires frequently. He is by no means in escorting shape to draw a picture but he lurks on the message boards regularly and we spent a good 45 minutes of dinner discussing the characters on these boards. As someone who has been in my shoes, I asked him point blank:

"Am I being unreasonable?"

"Are you kidding me, they don't know what it's like to escort and they never will. There's no way you can take any of them seriously."