Re: Seriously, what happened here?

[Guest BewareofNick]

Over at the Neverland Ranch, my esteemed colleague, Doug69, had this to say:

I haven't look at this place in months, but I can't believe what I see as I survey the carnage. This place is deader than Hooboy.

All the bad, mean posters were banned or went away, and what happened? Exactly what we always said would happen: the rest of the people - the nice babbling cliched old codgers - would end up boring themselves, and every one else, to death. All that would be left would be a few drooling imbeciles and loons babbling to each other about nothing.

And that's exactly what is left. Virtually no thread has more than 10 responses. Each only has a couple of hundred reads. There is no life here. No soul. It is all drained away and zapped. It's just a sad, smelly carcass of crap. Corpses going through the motions.

I hope all of you learned your lesson - be careful what you wish for. You got the forum that you wanted, and now you are forced to look in the mirror every day and see that the forum has become exactly what you are (see above).

God bless Hooboy. For his sake, shouldn't this just all be shut down already? Please put it out of its misery.

For the most part, I agree with what Doug has written. Surely, deej's The Great Meltdown signified the beginning of the end of the HBMC. Escortspeak, near and dear to my heart, seems to be too much freedom of speech for the more timid amongst us to handle. That's why I hope that this site can be the best of both worlds and get back to what the HBMC was before the seemingly deliberate devluation of the site began. Of course, I have posted on the HBMC since my "banishment" one of the more notable names having been Adam4BlackMen, but Doug is essentially correct in that the HBMC has become as boring and one note as Fox "News".

What do you think?

[marcanthony]

I don't go there much anymore, and I don't post there at all. So I am probably not the best person to make a judgement, but I don't think it is as interesting or useful a forum as it was at one time.

However, all communities kind of "morph" into what they want to be, and people choose to be part of it or leave as they see fit. If those that remain enjoy what is there, then that's great for them.

For me, it was an easy decision to leave. Over time, I (and MANY other people like myself) contributed tons of information to the site. It is a site that both benefits and exists because of its users. It really is only as good as its members' contributions.

However, about the time of the last MC shutdown, I was about to go my first trip ever to Brazil. When there were rumblings about the possible closure of the message center, I wrote to Daddy and asked him that he please not close it, as it would make the retrieval of valuable information about Brazil inaccessible. He didn't respond to my email.

So then he solicited everyone's opinion about how he should deal with the problems he was having... and I wrote a long email with my suggestions, again asking that whatever he do, at least make the forum exist even as a "read only" entity so that information that had been posted by members could at least be accessed. Again, no response.

Then a couple of days before the shutdown, trilingual announced that it would be shut down, and that anyone who wanted to make sure they had access to information in the message center better copy it fast. For that, he got banned, and the message center closed soon after making all the information unavailable.

To me, this was a total lack of respect for those (well, selfishly and specifically me) members who had put a lot of time and information into the site. I admit I had greatly benefited, but so I had also contributed.

My point is simply that Hooboy's site relied heavily on member contributions for its success, and I felt pretty strongly at that point that the members were not valued. In fact, I was left high and dry for my trip to Brazil in my time of need.

I am not one to make a big fanfare about leaving, being unhappy, etc. Those who know me personally know that I am the farthest thing from a drama queen that a gay person can be (LOL). So, I just left. It wasn't fun to contribute anymore because my heart simply wasn't in it.

So I am glad to be here now... because I know that the management here will appreciate my contributions and place value on the needs of its members.

I admit there were a few other issues that bothered me about things there, but definitely, this was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back.

That's my story, and yes Flower, I am sticking to it!

[Guest Conway]

I never thought that I would share any common ground of opinion with Doug69. But, he's right. It's obvious that Daddy doesn't have the skills to run a site that relies heavily upon providing its membership with information in the psirit of helpfulness. Secondly, he's simply not an honest person as evidenced by his claims of M4M's poor financial condition and Oz's compelling counter-argument to that point.

Hooboy's site had become a Beacon among guys who hire prior to Hooboy's death. I had used it. But rarely posted there for years and only began to post to deflect the rabid attacks of some of the mean girls after Hooboy's death. For that, I got booted for crossing daddy's monstrous ego.

Now, it reads like a borefest.

[Guest BewareofNick]

marc, when I joined M4M, I hadn't intended for it to become a part of my routine, but it did. Logging in to M4M every other day or so was an adventure in its own right. Some days it was fun, others aggravating, but it was never boring and it was always worthwhile. Watching Ethan fight with Auntie S, or being involved in my own controversy gave a sense of life to that site that is sorely lacking now. For me, though, escortspeak was a revelation. While we certainly embraced the Mean Girls sobriquet, many of us who had been unable to get along at M4M all of the sudden found common ground, even if it was our disgust with deej or the way Daddy was running M4M. I hope that MER can become what M4M no longer is.

[Guest BewareofNick]

Kind of shows that us Mean Girls were right about Daddy all along, doesn't it?

[marcanthony]

>hope that MER can become what M4M no longer is.

I hope so too.

I enjoy the interchange of information and perspective that can be had on a board like this.

Here's hoping that will be what this place becomes.

[KYTOP]

>

>>hope that MER can become what M4M no longer is.

>

>I hope so too.

>

>I enjoy the interchange of information and perspective that

>can be had on a board like this.

>

>Here's hoping that will be what this place becomes.

Let me also add my agreement and "hope so too". I think this place is getting off to a good start and hopefully others will contribute here either with reviews or with comments in the Message Center.

[KYTOP]

I appreciate your sharing with us the frustartion that lead to you leaving Hooboys place. You did make many contributions there, that was proven by the many comments of others that wondered where you had gone. We must cross paths again in Montreal. We've had many good times there.

[marcanthony]

>We must cross paths again in

>Montreal. We've had many good times there.

DEFINITELY! I'll be going there a few times this year again, as I know you will.

Though we certainly can cross paths in Rio, or SP, or Moscow, or Pattaya, or some other place like that too!

Actually, the friends I met from that board made it hard to leave... but at least I was able to keep in touch with all of you via email.

Now we have this and email.

Life is good!

[Guest jessedane]

I've always tried not to be contradictory on any of the message boards i'm on, but this time I think you guys are being incredibly ridiculous!

The hooboy message center has become an increasingly more friendly place where I feel valid discussions can now go on between both clients and escorts.

When I first joined that board I was quite frightened to post anything as any escort who did seemed to be berated and torn down for whatever they thought or believed in. It was a nasty place to be and filled with a lot of hate and anger.

The fact that we can all go on there and be civil and have a decent conversation is a great thing and I hope it continues. I also hope that this board can be a great place as well and not become a hate spewing place of malicious gossip and people bashing.

[marcanthony]

>I've always tried not to be contradictory on any of the

>message boards i'm on, but this time I think you guys are

>being incredibly ridiculous!

>

Jesse: I am not sure if I am one of the ones who you are calling "incredibly ridiculous", but if you are, then I have to ask you if you read my post.

I specifically said that if people on that board enjoyed it, then I was happy for them, and that they should continue to go there.

I articulated very clearly the reason that I left... and I don't think it is ridiculous at all. After contributing nearly 100 reviews and over 1000 posts, most of which were information providing pieces, I came to what was in my mind the inescapable conclusion that members like myself were not valued.

If you think that is a ridiculous reason to leave a place, then we will just never see eye to eye.

At the end of the day... everyone enjoys going to places where they find stimulation, and where their contributions are valued. Is it ridiculous to leave a place when neither of those things is happening in your mind?

[Guest Jacques788]

Marc, I feel sorry for that you need a gay forum to feel "valued".

Please stop your crying. Life is too short. If you do no like the other

site, just avoid it. No need to badmouth it.

[TotallyOz]

>Marc, I feel sorry for that you need a gay forum to feel

>"valued".

>Please stop your crying. Life is too short. If you do no like

>the other

>site, just avoid it. No need to badmouth it.

People place value on many things. Some place value on a name they create. Others just create new ones with no meaning. Some place value on monetary possessions while others throw away money like there is no tomorrow.

When anyone puts a great deal of time and effort into anything, they should feel that it has some value. I have read Marc's reviews and postings over the years. He did a great service to M4M and it was a valuable contribution. If you are unable to see that, perhaps you have a different agenda.

BTW: He is not crying. I have met him on more than one occasion and he is not the type to cry over this posting. He may cry for joy when I get to Brazil and tell him more about a certain sauna boy. But, it is for him to decide if those tears are worth it.

[TotallyOz]

>The hooboy message center has become an increasingly more

>friendly place where I feel valid discussions can now go on

>between both clients and escorts.

It is becoming more friendly only because it bans people who post against what the admin wants others to hear. Many are also having a hard time to get screennames as many requests are just ignored. While this isn't relevant to the people currently posting, it does not open up the discussions to others with varying views. I do feel that many of the discussions there are valuable and needed. I have never stated differently. I hope that you continue to post here and there. There is room for more than one site about male escorts and there is room for more forum boards on the subject.

>The fact that we can all go on there and be civil and have a

>decent conversation is a great thing and I hope it continues.

>I also hope that this board can be a great place as well and

>not become a hate spewing place of malicious gossip and people

>bashing.

I don't think anyone involved in this site wants a hate spewing place of malicious gossip and people bashing. None of the moderators here want that. We have all stated that we want a place where information can be shared and legitimate discussions can be had. We are still new so there are few of those things being discussed. It will happen!! Thank you for providing decent conversation.

[TotallyOz]

>God bless Hooboy. For his sake, shouldn't this just all be

>shut down already? Please put it out of its misery.[/i]

With this I totally disagree. I loved the man and he did a great deal for many people including me. To shut down his site would be a disgrace. I think it should stay and it should continue. I have said all along that I think it should have continued under the direction of his lover. But, as Hooboy did not leave a will and the estate is in litigation to resolve ownership issues, there is a limited amount of leeway in which the site can continue.

Daddy has done a good job with posting new reviews. He has done a good job at letting Barry, Cooper and DeeJ monitor the site. There is no need to shut the site down. It has much more to offer many.

There will be many people who try to do successful review sites. Rentboy has attempted and failed at this. Men4RentNow has tried. Many more will try. It is all the people that keep attempting to create something so successful as M4M that is Hooboys' real tribute. Still today, I don't know how he did it. He was an amazing man. He left an amazing legacy. His site should continue and not be shut down.

[TotallyOz]

>marc, when I joined M4M, I hadn't intended for it to become a

>part of my routine, but it did.

There are many that feel that same way. I started out as a viewer without posting in the forum boards. I was a reviewer many times over but never felt the need to post. I met a few fellow M4M'ers and started to get into posting. I was then addicted. I find it refreshing to have a cup of coffee in the morning and check out my list of daily sites. M4M was one of them for a few years. I still don't know how it was so addictive but it was.

[Guest BewareofNick]

>He has

>done a good job at letting Barry, Cooper and DeeJ monitor the

>site.

2/3 correct.

>There will be many people who try to do successful review

>sites. Rentboy has attempted and failed at this. Men4RentNow

>has tried. Many more will try. It is all the people that

>keep attempting to create something so successful as M4M that

>is Hooboys' real tribute. Still today, I don't know how he

>did it. He was an amazing man. He left an amazing legacy.

>His site should continue and not be shut down.

The legacy that Hooboy left is right here. His spirit lives on here, where so many of his friends have come to exchange ideas in a non oppressive environment. It is not elsewhere where only his name is left, but not his spirit. The fact that we are still talking about him and the impact he had on each one of us, is testimony to the man.

[Guest BewareofNick]

>The hooboy message center has become an increasingly more

>friendly place where I feel valid discussions can now go on

>between both clients and escorts.

Jesse, the HBMC has become the Fox "News" of escort message centers. It only seems friendly because only one POV is tolerated. When that POV is challenged in even the slightest way, either the Church Ladies all jump on the offending poster (as witness Doug) or the poster is banned by Daddy once deej makes the decision.

>When I first joined that board I was quite frightened to post

>anything as any escort who did seemed to be berated and torn

>down for whatever they thought or believed in. It was a nasty

>place to be and filled with a lot of hate and anger.

Simply not true. Many escorts have posted, such as Juan Vancouver, Rick and Derek, etc and continue to enjoy thriving tenures on the board. It was when the escorts lied about something or made ridiculous statements that they were challenged as well they should be. However, it is the view of the management there that all escorts tell the truth all the time and will never ever be challenged, even if they put the site in danger by allowing reviews of their underage activities to remain on the site for years. The "fear" you had was simply self induced, or encouraged by the one or two well known dishonest escorts.

>The fact that we can all go on there and be civil and have a

>decent conversation is a great thing and I hope it continues.

>I also hope that this board can be a great place as well and

>not become a hate spewing place of malicious gossip and people

>bashing.

It is what you make of it. I am glad you are here, but you need to open your eyes a bit where the HBMC is concerned.

[Guest Conway]

No offense to you guys, but, I really don't think you guys had any more knowledge of his lack of ability to run a buisness than anyone else did at that time. However, the issues with regard to Foxy inheriting the site seem to be right on.

[TotallyOz]

>The fact

>that we are still talking about him and the impact he had on

>each one of us, is testimony to the man.

You hit the nail on the head!

[Guest BostonGuy]

>Jesse, the HBMC has become the Fox "News" of escort

>message centers. It only seems friendly because only one POV

>is tolerated. When that POV is challenged in even the

>slightest way, either the Church Ladies all jump on the

>offending poster (as witness Doug) or the poster is banned by

>Daddy once deej makes the decision.

>

BofN:

A few weeks ago (has it been that long already?), you and I agreed to put the past behind us and move forward, agreeing to disagree where necessary. I've always considered you a good guy, even when I disagreed with your positions or posts (and, yes, I still think "7of9"). But I need to point out one of those places where we disagree.

In the above post, you bring up the "Church Ladies" once again. At M4M, the references to the Church Ladies showed up with great frequency and vehemence last summer. To this observer, the Church Ladies sobriquet has consistently been used to ridicule a group of people with whom you and others disagree. It has also seemed to me that it has been used not only to ridicule but also, through that ridicule, to attempt to silence dissent.

Yet, in the very same post quoted above, you say that the M4M only tolerates one POV and seem to lament that fact. You have posted elsewhere that you seek a forum that tolerates multiple points of view and "adult" discussions. I believe most of us here and at M4M would agree with that. Where we differ is in what we see as what is essential to an "adult" discussion.

When I responded to Hawk on the thread you reference, I had noted only KJun's ugly response to Doug. I'd somehow not seen Chuck's (who is usually as nice as they come) and so posted that I thought most people were responding to Doug cordially. I still feel that way. By far, most posts in that thread are by people who are posting their opinions about the current state of M4M and doing so without insulting Doug.

If most of those posts disagree with Doug, that doesn't constitute "jumping all over" him. It's meaningful adult discussion, held politely. If I had my druthers, KJun and Chuck would have posted their opinion in a more "adult" manner as well, but Doug purposely stirs the pot in a way that's clearly designed to evoke strong dissent and some people will always respond that way.

You see, BofN, while as adults we can respond to others with ridicule or sarcasm or epithets, we act most as adults when we don't, when we leave room for the opinions of others and recognize that our own opinion is only one among many. When you say, above, that the "Church Ladies all jump on the offending poster", it seems as if you are disregarding the opinions they have stated and are lumping them all together in a group that you can then ridicule -- simply because you don't agree with the opinions that they have posted.

Is it so surprising that many people who come to M4M are simply, clearly not looking for bitch sessions? Who are not looking for long-winded, back-and-forth threads that contain nothing new after the first five posts on either side? Who really come to share information and reach out to other gay guys -- because, in many cases, they have no other venue in which to do so?

The great rancor that sometimes occurs at M4M -- and which Doug clearly finds amusing and enjoys initiating, because it seems he finds the absence of it "boring" -- drives away many other posters. Many people simply will not post in that kind of an atmophere -- witness the original poster in this thread. You and others can dismiss that feeling, if you wish, but there is no denying that many people simply won't post in an atmosphere where they feel they are going to be attacked. They want a kinder, gentler kind of place.

Many people find that "kinder, gentler" kind of place to be very boring. Their response is, often, to try to make it less boring by posting purposefully antagonistic or leading threads that they hope others will respond to forcefully. This behavior is nothing short of baiting and it's as old as the Internet. But, contrary to the what its proponents will claim, I don't see it as "adult" behavior at all. Instead, it always seems to me sort of like something you'd see in high school.

People can disagree without demeaning others. They can do so forcefully. If their ideas are strong and well-stated, others will gravitate to their side. But we've seen at EscortSpeak what happens when all of the rules are dropped and people are encouraged to speak their mind in any way they want: ideas are stifled, the atmosphere is unpleasant and most people want to have nothing to do with the place. It's not for nothing that society has evolved standards for public discourse over the last few thousand years. People need to be able to communicate with each other and if everyone walked around talking like the posters at EscortSpeak, far less would be communicated and the violent crime rate would probably skyrocket. It might be more amusing to outside observers as they observe each conversation, but providing amusement to others is not generally the measure of a good conversation.

BG

[marcanthony]

>Marc, I feel sorry for that you need a gay forum to feel

>"valued".

>Please stop your crying. Life is too short. If you do no like

>the other

>site, just avoid it. No need to badmouth it.

Welcome to this forum, Jacques. And believe it or not, we totally agree on this issue.

Life is too short, and there is no need to cry about a site. JUst leave and move on. That in fact, is exactly what I did. I didn't make a dramatic exit. I just went on to other things.

This forum is one of those other things, and I like it. The topic came up, so I participated in it with my own experience. I think that is what a forum is for, no?

Also, I really don't understand why you think I am bad-mouthing the site. I just explained why I left. That was a personal issue. If you enjoy that site, then by all means, you should participate there. What is your screen name there, btw? Is it different than this one?

Anyway... I agree pretty much 100% with what you said. So I am a little at a loss as to why you thought otherwise. Maybe French is your first language? If so... you must know how much I love Montreal. And the only thing I cry about is staying away from there for 4 months during their winters!

[Guest mbarz]

>Is it so surprising that many people who come to M4M are

>simply, clearly not looking for bitch sessions? Who are not

>looking for long-winded, back-and-forth threads that contain

>nothing new after the first five posts on either side? Who

>really come to share information and reach out to other gay

>guys -- because, in many cases, they have no other venue in

>which to do so?

This is exactly what I never understood Boston Guy, if they didn't want involved in the bitch sessions, why didn't they ignore them and start their own threads? Wouldn't that have been the adult thing to do?

Why did they run to daddy, like little children, if they were so adult? If you ask me their behavior wasn't any more adult than the people you all were banning.

Also, how many times are you going to drag out that same "because, in many cases" argument, if you haven't noticed dude, you won, you got the message center you wanted and you still can't shut up. Now you, deej, and Lucky can bestow all your vast knowledge on all the poor pathetic faggots that were to afraid to speak up when all the mean people were still there.

[Guest BewareofNick]

I have a friend that if you ask him what time it is, he'll tell you how to manufacture a watch. I wonder why I am remided of him. ;-)

So noted, Boston Guy. The Church Ladies sobriquet is indeed as you described above, but with one important exception. It is not now nor has it ever been used to intimidate anyone or stifle (Ahh jeez Edith, ya dingbat) conversation. I certainly never took the Mean Girls name that way. Heck, I even made it my avatar. However, the use of the CL name is best relegated to the past and so there I shall leave it.

I want this site to be a free exchange of ideas. However, fear of a message center, or of participation in one, seems a little too "drama queen" for my tastes. Even when i was a pariah on M4M, i stayed on posting until things changed back around for me. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself (or deej in a strapless teddy, but I digress).

[Guest BewareofNick]

>No offense to you guys, but, I really don't think you guys

>had any more knowledge of his lack of ability to run a

>buisness than anyone else did at that time. However, the

>issues with regard to Foxy inheriting the site seem to be

>right on.

Well, as Oz as suggested, it's not so much a lack of ability as other considerations. Daddy is nothing if not a technological wizard. However, in the interests of privacy I can't bring that up, at least not here.

And yes, Foxy did get screwed. BIG TIME. Wow, me and Conway agreeing on something. Boston Guy, are you listening???