Pandemic Tale: I Don't Know What to Do

[PeterRS]

This is a longish and sad tale. I have a horrible feeling it will end very badly.

For 15 years or so I had two western neighbours in the double-sized apartment next to mine. They had retired and decided Bangkok would be a good option. Neither is a bar hopper. In fact, I don't believe they have ever been into a gogo bar. They also do not read any chat rooms. Why two guys needed a three bedroom apartment with a huge living room I never asked. Not my business. Occasionally wed meet in the corridor, chat and a few times dropped in on each other for a glass of wine. Five years ago they sold their apartment which had been on the market for probably around 3 years. I know they got a lot less for it than they hoped. They then moved into a nearby rented apartment that I believe was almost as big.

Last November one called and asked if it might be possible to borrow some money for a couple of weeks until his pension payment arrived. I was reluctant because we were not especially friendly. But I did lend them a few thousand Baht. I then learned from another friend that their landlord was owed several months rent and had switched off the electricity in their apartment. They later confirmed this was true. As of today I think they have had no power at all for at least 4 months. A couple of weeks after providing the loan, I dropped off three bottles of wine. Soon after that I had another request for cash. I told them I was not in a good financial position myself and it would be difficult. Then they told me they had nothing to eat and the loan was only for another couple of weeks. 

After thinking about it and knowing both were in their early 80s, I gave them another few thousand baht. When I delivered it it was clear both were very thin. But I had to tell them I simply could not be their banker of last resort and this would have to be the last 'loan'. In the meantime I was told the landlord had taken them to court. The judge had given them a month to get out. That was about 2 months ago. How they are still there I have no idea.

About 4 weeks ago I had another call. They were down to one tomato. Could I possibly lend them just a little more. I said I could not. But I would try and get some food as I was going to the supermarket that day. I got some nice sandwiches, soups in special containers, ham, cheese, bread and a little fruit and veg. They were overjoyed when I took it round. Then a few days later I was asked if I could possibly get a little more food. I talked to several friends about this. With their agreement and great reluctance, I had to say I could not continue to help them.

They obviously have huge problems. No electricity for months and many months in rental arrears. They say they have no other friends here. Although this may seem ridiculous, I recall I never once saw them with any others when they lived next door to me. When they told me about being given a month to get out of the apartment, I asked what they would do. They would return to Europe where friends/relatives would put them up. With no cash, the Embassy had said it would provide air fares to be repaid at a later date. On later asking them how it was that they had not left, they told me their accommodation arrangements overseas had fallen through. The Embassy would only provide air fares if it had proof of such accommodation.

I do know that the pensions they receive from overseas are very small, certainly too small even to provide basic food for a month. Yet, despite their financial woes, they still take a taxi to a shopping centre nearby almost every day to buy simple food at the supermarket. When I queried why they waste about 600 - 700 baht a week on taxis, they told me they also need to put a small charge into their mobile phone. I pointed out that there are 2 convenience stores within 50 meters of their condo. 100 baht could perhaps buy enough basic food for 2 for a day. It will also heat up some of the food they buy. Their condo also has a pool and gym which must have electricity outlets for topping up a phone. I got no reasonable answer.

Eventually their landlord will surely evict them, and they have nowhere to go. Soon Immigration will surely realise they do not have anything like enough for their retirement visas (assuming they are on retirement visas). What happens then, goodness only knows. I feel guilty but all my friends say I have done my bit and the 'loans' have never been repaid (but then I did not expect them to be repaid). I just do not know if I can do any more.

Lastly, I know they are not conning me. They really are in a dreadful position. There are perhaps a few details they have left out, but I have no doubt what they have told me is the truth.

[vaughn]

That is a really bad situation for them, and my greatest fear for when i (hopefully) retire to Thailand in the future. It sounds like a combination of poor money management, some bad luck, and a reluctance to help themselves.

They need to find a way to get accommodation in their home country and take up the embassy on their offer before they become homeless, that will turn their situation from terrible to unbearable for the remainder of their life.
Under no circumstances should you allow them to stay with you when they are evicted, that call from them is inevitable and will be the most difficult to turn down, but given their refusal to leave the rental it would be a very bad move for you.

I hope the situation works out, and you're a kind soul to help them as much as you have.

 

[Londoner]

A sad story. I hope things work out for these guys.

I wonder whether this is just an extreme case of a situation that may be more widespread than we think?  There must have been a number of falangs who emigrated to Thailand when the baht was weak? 73/74 baht to £1 at one stage..  Those who took the plunge on limited resources and are still there must be feeling the pinch now with their savings quickly diminishing. 

I recall thinking when I first went to Thailand twenty-five years ago that the retirees all had beautiful apartments and a high standard of living. But  I soon became aware that some of the older guys outside the gay areas certainly didn't appear to live that  way.

And as a different illustration, I got to know one expat very well. He had had a high standard of living at home in the US and had enjoyed a full -and expensive - life style in Thailand. Then he became ill, his insurance ran-out and he died in a local hospital penniless, not being able to  pay for much-needed medication. 

 

 

[PeterRS]

2 hours ago, vaughn said:

That is a really bad situation for them, and my greatest fear for when i (hopefully) retire to Thailand in the future. It sounds like a combination of poor money management, some bad luck, and a reluctance to help themselves.

They need to find a way to get accommodation in their home country and take up the embassy on their offer before they become homeless, that will turn their situation from terrible to unbearable for the remainder of their life.
Under no circumstances should you allow them to stay with you when they are evicted, that call from them is inevitable and will be the most difficult to turn down, but given their refusal to leave the rental it would be a very bad move for you.

I hope the situation works out, and you're a kind soul to help them as much as you have.

Many thanks for your comments. I believe they came to Thailand with quite a large nest egg. From what they told me, their money management has been near disastrous, with far too many risky investments at a time in their lives when risk has to be avoided, the more so with very meagre pensions which go nowhere near meeting the minimum required by Immigration. 

My apartment is basically a two bedroom apartment which I converted to a one bedroom. They have seen it. There is absolutely no way they could live here, nor would I let them.

What I fail to understand is how they did not see all this coming years ago. But then we can all be blind to reality when it suits us, I suppose.

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, Londoner said:

I got to know one expat very well. He had had a high standard of living at home in the US and had enjoyed a full -and expensive - life style in Thailand. Then he became ill, his insurance ran-out and he died in a local hospital penniless, not being able to  pay for much-needed medication. 

Medical insurance is probably the one issue which many of us just do not factor in at a sufficiently high level for retirement. I had a great world-wide plan with the company I worked for but I knew I could not take that with me when I retired. Even if I had, the premiums would have been prohibitive. From around 55 years old, my experience is that premiums for all medical policies will jump quite dramatically every 5 years with usually greater than inflation increases in the in between years. I even heard of one insurance company based in the USA which raised its premiums by 50% and then 25% - and these were in the in-between years.

Private hospitals in Thailand are great but they are now a lot more expensive than they were 20 years ago. Public hospitals can also be very good for many of the doctors work in both the public and the private sectors. But in return for the much lower costs, you have to join waiting lists which can often be months long for non urgent procedures. You pays your money and takes your choice!

[vaughn]

21 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

Many thanks for your comments. I believe they came to Thailand with quite a large nest egg. From what they told me, their money management has been near disastrous, with far too many risky investments at a time in their lives when risk has to be avoided, the more so with very meagre pensions which go nowhere near meeting the minimum required by Immigration. 

My apartment is basically a two bedroom apartment which I converted to a one bedroom. They have seen it. There is absolutely no way they could live here, nor would I let them.

What I fail to understand is how they did not see all this coming years ago. But then we can all be blind to reality when it suits us, I suppose.

Yeah it seems like they made some wrong turns from owning an apartment and by the sounds of it living a fairly comfortable life to where they are now. I am curious about what the catalyst was that got them to this point as well, i would usually assume drugs or medical issues but i guess a low pension and living beyond your means for long enough would do it as well.

As you don't end up having to deal with two squatters who won't leave.

[zombie]

" I don't know what to do"/" I have no doubt what they have told me is the truth."

Dear oh dear....

Is this posting for real or what?

On the one hand these neighbours are living in a place with no electric for months and seem to only have a tomato to eat; but then again they take a daily taxi to stock up at the supermarket...

hmmm...

And you OP... give em a loan and then bring them 3 bottles of wine...and later on give them more money...

 

hmmm..

Have you heard the expression:

' every good deed deserves to be punished'?

Surely its for their embassy or relatives, etc to sort out, not you?!

Probably they have been sponging/scrouging many others already and you are a 'sucker" whom they think can provide them more...and more...and more...

Likely their visa have run out and they are living here illegally but who knows...and who cares...it ain't your problem unless you continue to make it so.

Sometime have to be firm and its kinder to say:

'I have helped enough. DO NOT ask for anything more.'

(ie = Be a man)...

For people who are or want to live in Thailand its crucial to have sufficient money for living expenses and proper health insurance.If not then:

Return home, voluntarily or not..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, PeterRS said:

I just do not know if I can do any more.

My suggestion is you DON'T do any more and tell them not to ask again.
1 From your explanation, they are not family or close friends.
2 They are not even trying to budget, if taking a taxi every day to buy food. They could walk, take the bus or buy locally.

3 Any farang retiring abroad needs to budget, mitigate exchange rate risks and have a big pile of money set aside for the unexpected, including medical costs.   Stress test finances for big exchange rate moves, stock market fluctuations and so on. Invest some of the retirement fund in Asia.  Spend no more than 2.5 or3% of the capital per annum, or less if it is not carefully invested. The typically quoted 4% "safe withrawal rate" is not safe looking at historical data.

 

They obviously have not tried to manage money well. 

Just make sure you don't deplete your own funds by helping them.

Then, if you have problems with your conscience, just compare them to the millions of poor people in various countries who never had the opportunities they had.

Just because they are neighbours, it doesn't mean they are any more deserving of your assistance than some people 500 miles away in Burma (for example).

Whilst my advice might sound a little harsh, just keep asking if this pair are the most deserving recipients of your charitable donations, or do people elsewhere on the planet deserve it more ?

 

 

 

 

[CurtisD]

This very sad tale is a warning of both the risks of planning for retirement in general and particularly retirement outside of your home country.

From your original post it seems that they purchased their apartment around 2000.

It also seems they are reliant on the income from their own capital as their pensions are meager.

Whether they are originally from the US/UK/EU the following facts will be roughly the same:

* Since 2000 they will have lost 10-20% on the exchange rate, assuming they left their capital offshore.

* If they were relying on interest income, the yield on Government paper will have been around 6% in 2000 when they made the move. Following the GFC in 2008 this will have dropped fairly rapidly to 3% then 1% and now nearly nothing.  If they started with $1m in capital their income will have declined from a livable $60k in 2000 to $30k by 2009 to almost nothing now. The GFC followed by Covid has been very bad for anyone trying to live off interest income.

* If they were not trying to live off fixed income the stock market implosion that went with the GFC may have permanently impaired their capital, particularly if they took money out after the crash rather than holding on long enough to benefit from the recovery.

* If they were conservative to begin with in 2000 and were in bonds, the drop in interest rates post 2008 may have lead them to take on more risk to increase their income as interest rates declined, investing in lower-graded bonds with higher default risk or in the share market. The higher risk may have then worked against them and they lost money after already being in a tight situation.

* Then on top of this comes rising health insurance costs.

In 2000 with a home and $1m in capital, moving to Thailand would have seemed low-risk. At worst, between exchange rate movements, interest rate fluctuations and higher insurance premiums, maybe you would have thought the worst would be a halving of your net income for a few years (not over 10 years), which would be uncomfortable but manageable. 

There but for the Grace of God ........

 

 

 

[fedssocr]

you're a nice person for doing as much as you already have. It is a sad situation. People all over the world have issues. As an introvert myself I can understand how they wouldn't have made any local friends.

Older people don't always have the greatest judgement or cognitive abilities. Certainly people in their 80s can have problems. My own mother is in her early 80s and has memory issues and scammers preying on her every day. No matter how many times I tell her to not answer the phone she keeps doing it.

No one really knows what issues these guys have faced. And it's certainly not Peter's job to support them. Here in the US there are some things like food banks and charities that can help support people somewhat when they have hit hard times. But if you retire to a developing country you have to realize the societal limitations - especially in the midst of a pandemic when everyone is hurting.

Thanks for the cautionary tale. Once upon a time I had considered retiring to Thailand (among other places abroad). A friend of mine here who is a decade older than I am always asks questions about retirement like will be close to healthcare? Who will drive you to doctor appointments or help you if you really need it? While some of his questions feel a little hysterical to me, it has made me think a bit about the future. Even with plenty of money you can run into problems that you don't expect.

[PeterRS]

4 hours ago, zombie said:

Dear oh dear....

Is this posting for real or what?

On the one hand these neighbours are living in a place with no electric for months and seem to only have a tomato to eat; but then again they take a daily taxi to stock up at the supermarket...

hmmm...

And you OP... give em a loan and then bring them 3 bottles of wine...and later on give them more money...

hmmm..

Have you heard the expression:

' every good deed deserves to be punished'?

Surely its for their embassy or relatives, etc to sort out, not you?

The post is real. You are as entitled to your opinion as anyone. And i did request opinions. But I know what I did and why I did it. And with respect, I know these two unfortunate people a great deal more than you. I would not do as you imply you would. I do remember when someone gave me a daily calendar decades ago with a proverb or saying on each page. One said, "Never lend money to a friend as you will lose your money and your friend." Call me a fool if you wish. I did what I did and am in no way unhappy that I did so.

3 hours ago, z909 said:

Whilst my advice might sound a little harsh, just keep asking if this pair are the most deserving recipients of your charitable donations, or do people elsewhere on the planet deserve it more ?

I understand your viewpoint, but I do not regard the contributions I have made as charitable donations. I have tried to help two guys with whom I was on friendly terms for many years. Period. I believe if the situation was reversed, they would do the same. I have seen them a few weeks ago when they were almost like skeletons. Why? That's the big question to which I have no clear answer.

[spoon]

Since it is your money and food, i believe you have the say on how u want to spend it. If anything, seeing an acquaintance suffer until not having food to eat is tough, and id do the same as what u did if i were in your shoes. And you are correct to assume that u will not get the money back when you help them. What that also means is that you should only help more if you have can afford to do so, and clearly you are not in the position to do so.

Cases like this should be dealt with by the embassy, so if you have their information, maybe a call to the embassy explaining what is happening to their citizen currently might move them faster to deal with the situation or make exception with their living situation back home. 

Taking taxi when not having money to buy enough food is a sign that their logical thinking is affected due to age. Perhaps more than money, they actually also need someone to help them explain their situation to the embassy. God knows when the last time they have been in contact but when you dont even have money for food, the last thing in your mind is to follow up with people with authority. Another thing you can do is refer them to some of the NGO or charity organization, or religious organization  they belongs to? 

Im not familiar with thailand NGO and charities org, but here in malaysia, there are plenty of channel that one can go for help. Even enganging with local influencer or politicians might help too. There are places like food for homeless, soup kitchen, pay as you can restaurant here as well, although im not sure about thailand. Local mosque, temple, churches also have programs that gives out free groceries and food for the needy from time to time. 

 

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

 I have tried to help two guys with whom I was on friendly terms for many years.

Apologies if I have misunderstood how well you know them.

Additionally, isn't it necessary to prove 65,000 baht a month income or have 800,000 in a bank account to renew their visas ?

[10tazione]

1 hour ago, spoon said:

Cases like this should be dealt with by the embassy, so if you have their information, maybe a call to the embassy explaining what is happening to their citizen currently might move them faster to deal with the situation or make exception with their living situation back home.

That would also be my suggestion. I think cases like this one are quite common and the embassies know what can be done.
Additionally I think that if they ask you for help repeatedly you deserve to know the whole story and my feeling is they haven't told you everything...

[vinapu]

8 hours ago, 10tazione said:

Additionally I think that if they ask you for help repeatedly you deserve to know the whole story and my feeling is they haven't told you everything...

yes, it's an option.

Few years ago at work I was involved in settling some estate. Deceased's was in her 80ties ,her  pension was quite higher than average and she amassed some sizable   nest, not millions but quite a bit at disposal  for person of her  age. She was of sound mind. Executor , who was both lawyer and her friend told me that despite of all of that she was known in her area for panhandling on the street, combing garbage containers  and lived drastically below of her means for reasons unknown.

I don't know why but that case came to my mind when I was reading  original narrative above.

[Guest]

On 2/18/2021 at 7:54 PM, CurtisD said:

In 2000 with a home and $1m in capital, moving to Thailand would have seemed low-risk.

Had they retired with that per person, invested 50% of it in well managed SE Asian funds, the rest in something sensible and spent less than 3% per year, I imagine they would have done just fine.

Therefore benefitting from post Asian financial crises tailwinds and reduced currency risk. 

However, careful financial planning doesn't feature anywhere in the story provided.

Retiring on such a sum today would be difficult, unless there were other sources of income.