Us election Biden V Trump

[forky123]

On 11/6/2020 at 4:59 PM, Vessey said:

From my side of the pond, I remain astonished that they couldn't have found two better candidates to contest what is arguably the world's top job!

Our news channels are dominated by it (at least it has temporarily knocked Covid19 off the top spot!). Last night I was watching one lot of Trump supporters outside an count screaming 'stop the count' (Trump was currently ahead), and then another lot of Trump supporters screaming 'count every vote' (Trump was currently behind).  Lawyers on both sides rubbing their hands and Trump confident that if it ends up in the Supreme Court it will now go his way. If he ends up going, it won't be quietly! No chance of him being magnanimous in defeat, if defeat it is..

At least it makes me feel quite proud of the UK system for all its foibles. 

Ahh yes. Where 18% of the population voting for BoJo the Clown and his Lying Circus gives him an 80 seat majority to decimate the UK economy for generations. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, forky123 said:

Ahh yes. Where 18% of the population voting for BoJo the Clown and his Lying Circus gives him an 80 seat majority to decimate the UK economy for generations. 

1   The alternative to BJ was an anti-semitic communist.   So we chose BJ.

2   Fact check:  The Conservatives got 43.6% of the vote.

 

 

[reader]

From the Thai Enquirer

A look back at the Trump presidency and Thailand

Many Thais would have been asleep when the election results in Pennsylvania were finally called at nearly midnight, Bangkok time. Some of those who were awake greeted the news that former vice president Joe Biden had won the state, and with it the American presidency, with relief. President Donald Trump will not receive a second term. 

That is unsurprising, perhaps. After four years of Trumpian turmoil, exacerbated by the coronavirus pandemic, the Pew Center found that those around the world with favorable views of the United States are at record lows, and there is little confidence in the president himself.

Many Thais were amused at times by slips such as when Trump referred to the nonexistent country “Thighland,” but on the whole more would have simply felt repelled by presidential behavior that was unpresidential far too often. 

Indeed, many had feared for the worst when Trump was elected. I still remember election day in 2016, friends gathered around a projector screen showing a map of the United States, watching as state after state turned red. Lunch was eaten with a sense of disbelief: what, exactly, were Americans thinking? And what would it mean for the world? It was easy to predict all sorts of mayhem. What else could one have thought when such a loose cannon was to be handed the nuclear codes?

In the end, the simple truth was that no one had much inkling of how a Trump administration might actually govern. So now that Joe Biden is president-elect and the Trump presidency will wrap up, barring any unexpected success in the challenges being mounted by a president unwilling to admit defeat, it would be fruitful to look back and cut through all the sound and chaos. What did Trump mean for Thailand? 

The image that emerges was that it was quite a mixed bag. It could have been worse, but it still wasn’t great.

Continues with photos

https://www.thaienquirer.com/20685/a-look-back-at-the-trump-presidency-and-thailand/

[vinapu]

I like that quote from linked article above:

" And Trump’s behavior over the past few years, which befits a deranged emperor with no clothes, has made it more difficult than ever to make the argument that democracy is a positive thing. "

[reader]

Extracted from The Diplomat

Before Trump, South Korean Conservatives Also Claimed a ‘Stolen’ Election

For Korea watchers, U.S. President Donald Trump’s narrative that Democrats, backed by foreign powers, have “stolen” the election through massive voter fraud uncannily resembles a widespread conspiracy theory that emerged in South Korea following its legislative election on April 15. Both narratives suggest that the liberal/progressive parties colluded with “China” to tamper with ballots, in elections that were expected to – and indeed did – benefit the progressives.

The convergence of the narratives on electoral fraud in South Korea and the United States is not a coincidence. Different forms of the American far-right’s discourses and practices have been adopted by its Korean counterparts, from the emergence of fringe media outlets that stand in opposition to the “mainstream media,” to the widespread use of Pepe the Frog memes on fringe sites. Furthermore, an increasingly assertive Beijing has made it easier for South Korean conservatives to rally around their existing anti-communist identity and accuse progressives of colluding with outside enemies, a stance that fits neatly with the narratives from the U.S.

But this is not merely a tale of two similar narratives or a frivolous double-take on fringe conspiracy theories. It brings attention to the domestic contexts that have allowed these conspiracy theories to emerge out of the fringe, as well as the potential of greater challenges. The American struggle with right-wing populism has been well-documented already, and this article instead focuses on the South Korean context, which has received relatively less attention. The movement questioning the results of the April 15 election in South Korea highlights factors in its political landscape that may further disrupt the foundations of its democratic system in the same way that the election of Trump has done in the U.S., and it underscores the transnational element of today’s right-wing politics, which act both at the domestic and international levels.

Preparing for the election amid a COVID-19-struck economy and unfavorable polling numbers, Trump had been suggesting for months that the election might get “stolen” by Democrats and foreign actors like China. In particular, the Trump campaign problematized the increased use of mail-in ballots. In August, Trump said, “The mailmen are going to get them, and people are just going to grab batches of them … [China and Russia], they’ll be grabbing plenty of them. It’s a disaster, it’s a rigged election waiting to happen.”

s expected, once it became apparent that the election would not be going his way, Trump started to call the mail-in ballots “illegal,” and launched numerous legal battles. Foreign Policy’s James Palmer warned that Trump is likely to take up the conspiracy theories circulating in the right-wing Chinese media that link Biden to the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).

As Trump started to make claims of “illegal ballots,” Min Kyung-wook, an ex-member of the South Korean National Assembly, wrote on November 5 that the “dark shadows” of the April 15th election that unseated him had “extended” to the U.S. presidential election, referring to Joe Biden’s expected victory. Drawing a parallel between the two elections, Min pointed to the CCP and “leftist factions” allegedly collaborating with Beijing as the forces behind the acts of electoral fraud in both the U.S. and South Korea.

To be clear, the “mainstream” in both the U.S. and South Korea has responded to these claims of electoral fraud with swift dismissal. However, in the era of “alternative facts,” the space that the “mainstream” occupies is under constant challenge, and these “fringe theories” have come out of the fringes, with prominent political figures in “mainstream” parties, like Trump or Min, behind them. The context in the U.S. that has led to the resurgence of the far-right has been well-documented and analyzed, and it might be necessary to continue watching this space in South Korea, which seems to be mirroring the U.S.

[spoon]

I can understand if the opposition cries about election fraud, especially when the ruling gov has been in power for far too long. But a ruling gov cries election fraud when they lost, to be honest is really weird. How did the opposition have such power to commit those fraud when they dont hold any position? 

[anddy]

On 11/13/2020 at 7:57 PM, spoon said:

I can understand if the opposition cries about election fraud, especially when the ruling gov has been in power for far too long. But a ruling gov cries election fraud when they lost, to be honest is really weird. How did the opposition have such power to commit those fraud when they dont hold any position? 

It's because the ruling (federal) government in the US has zero influence and control over the election. It's all done by the states, in some of which the opposition party is in fact in charge (notably Pennsylvania). 
And don't forget that postal votes are ALL and by definition fraudulent  

[anddy]

On 11/11/2020 at 5:52 PM, spoon said:

Apparently, Estonia did have online voting for their election.

https://www.euronews.com/amp/2020/11/02/why-don-t-more-nations-hold-elections-online-here-s-how-estonia-has-been-a-lone-trailblaze

Key quotes (emphasis mine): 

"The main lesson learnt in building a digital society for the past 25 years in Estonia is that digital government has got very little to do with technology and everything to do with building a mindset and culture for trust.
[...]
"In America, you're seeing Donald Trump undermine trust in mail-in ballot despite having no legitimate reason for doing so. Just the accusation kind of undermines the legitimacy," Chowdhury said.
"All democracies are built on that trust in the process. They're actually very fragile and as soon as you undermine trust in the process and how secure it is, that's when you see democracies failing,"
 

On 11/13/2020 at 6:19 PM, reader said:

From the Thai Enquirer

A look back at the Trump presidency and Thailand

https://www.thaienquirer.com/20685/a-look-back-at-the-trump-presidency-and-thailand/

Key quote:

"Even worse, in this biggest of bully pulpits, Trump has turned his presidency into a case study in democratic erosion via norm busting. "

 

That was and is the biggest danger of Trump and Trumpism: not his policies (let him build his stupid Mexico wall), but constant undermining of trust in the system and processed. Everyone knows that democracy only properly works when the three branches of government are truly separate, providing the necessary checks and balances. However, probably even more  important are the unwritten and unspoken rules and customs everyone adheres to, from the electorate to politicians to judges, i.e. mindset of EVERYONE. That is eroded quickly leading to corrosion of the institutions and democracy itself. It would be a reverse "change of heart" In Ghandi's sense, allowing autocracy (as aspired to by Trump) t flourish even in what used to be the beacon of democracy.

On 11/12/2020 at 9:10 PM, reader said:

 

 

[firecat69]

Just seems to be the old story for hundred of years . Democracy is messy and to work its best needs an educated citizenry . Unfortunately the education that much of the citizenry now gets is from the likes of Face Book and Twitter etc.

Those companies should be banned or at least severely restricted by allowing them to be sued into oblivion if allowing  false facts to be posted like they are the Gospel. If the great newspapers of the Democratic World posted the lies that are allowed on Face Book etc they would fast be destroyed at least in the USA. 

In the USA you only have to go back to Bush vs Gore to see how it works. There were no riots when Bush was declared the winner after the Supreme Court  ended the fiasco in Florida . And in fact the Clinton Government did everything possible to make the transition smooth. Unfortunately the late start still caused the Bush Presidency to make some severe mistakes that may have led to 9/11.  

This mess that Biden is going through is likely to cause unforeseen  turbulence because of Baby Trump not doing the right things.

Would be interested to hear from citizens of other Democracies ?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, firecat69 said:

Just seems to be the old story for hundred of years . Democracy is messy and to work its best needs an educated citizenry . Unfortunately the education that much of the citizenry now gets is from the likes of Face Book and Twitter etc.

Those companies should be banned or at least severely restricted by allowing them to be sued into oblivion if allowing  false facts to be posted like they are the Gospel. If the great newspapers of the Democratic World posted the lies that are allowed on Face Book etc they would fast be destroyed at least in the USA. 

 

You have identified one of the main problems here.   With Twitter, Facebook etc, people can post any junk and it will gain traction among any tribe who want to hear that message.  

Even some newspapers are reducing standards, as selling a quality newspaper is replaced by a need to generate click bait for their websites.    

So how to balance a free press and stop the propagation of lies on Twitter etc is one of the major challenges of our age.   At the one extreme, complete deregulation of Twitter is dangerous, but we wouldn't want to go to a situation where the government controls all the domestic media like Russia, or worse still censors all news, like China.

This one is difficult to fix.

 

[firecat69]

6 hours ago, z909 said:

You have identified one of the main problems here.   With Twitter, Facebook etc, people can post any junk and it will gain traction among any tribe who want to hear that message.  

Even some newspapers are reducing standards, as selling a quality newspaper is replaced by a need to generate click bait for their websites.    

So how to balance a free press and stop the propagation of lies on Twitter etc is one of the major challenges of our age.   At the one extreme, complete deregulation of Twitter is dangerous, but we wouldn't want to go to a situation where the government controls all the domestic media like Russia, or worse still censors all news, like China.

This one is difficult to fix.

 

You are right that it may not be easy but something has to be done. If FB wants to make Billions off of fictitious  stories then let them be sued like any newspaper would. There is a big difference  between personal opinion and things  that purport to be fact to the unsuspecting.

[firecat69]

Great program last night by one of the best investigative  reporters on the race for the vaccine!

https://www.msnbc.com/on-assignment/watch/race-for-the-vaccine-cracking-the-code-96010309723

[PeterRS]

8 hours ago, firecat69 said:

You are right that it may not be easy but something has to be done. If FB wants to make Billions off of fictitious  stories then let them be sued like any newspaper would. There is a big difference  between personal opinion and things  that purport to be fact to the unsuspecting.

Something certainly has to be done if democracy as we know it is to survive. Its not so long ago that universal suffrage was assumed to be the be all and end all of democracy, the right of every citizen to elect the leadership. Access to accurate information at that time was severely limited largely to a print media with opposing viewpoints, radio and TV party political projects. 

The problem it seems to me is less the very recent explosion of media outlets and the internet offering all manner of wacky truths, it is the over-riding belief that each individual has a God-given right to freedom of speech, albeit one that does not allow you to shout “Fire” in a theatre if there is not in fact any fire. This freedom has empowered individuals far more than any other development in my view. “I believe I am right. I believe you are not only wrong, you are spreading lies.” Get one group together facing an opposing group and you have started your recipe for social and political upheaval. 
 

The understanding that freedom of speech must be allied to individual responsibility and accepted societal norms has almost totally disappeared. Until that fact is drummed into people, I reckon it matters little what you do to regulate the public and social media platforms. That surely comes down to education and the need for educators to stress at all times that all freedoms within a society come with very specific responsibilities. 

But clearly that will take time. Until then, some sort of curbs have to be put on internet and social platform freedoms. Lawmakers are fearful of anything which limits freedoms of speech, but look where the USA is today and the need for a revision of the meaning of freedom of speech becomes perfectly obvious.

[reader]

9 hours ago, PeterRS said:

This freedom has empowered individuals far more than any other development in my view.

That's the general idea for which we can thank the ancient Greeks. In the US, it's been modified over time by the courts but the intent remains unchanged.

9 hours ago, PeterRS said:

The understanding that freedom of speech must be allied to individual responsibility and accepted societal norms has almost totally disappeared. Until that fact is drummed into people, I reckon it matters little what you do to regulate the public and social media platforms. That surely comes down to education and the need for educators to stress at at all times that all freedoms within a society come with very specific responsibilities. 

I don't think you'd get an argument from Thailand's elites who've been prescribing these concepts since the protests began. The problem, of course, is who decides what "accepted societal norms" are.

9 hours ago, PeterRS said:

But clearly that will take time. Until then, some sort of curbs have to be put on internet and social platform freedoms. Lawmakers are fearful of anything which limits freedoms of speech, but look where the USA is today and the need for a revision of the meaning of freedom of speech becomes perfectly obvious.

Well, the platforms themselves have begun to introduce some curbs but I don't think they've  much changed the tenor of the debate.

Personally,  I believe that it falls to the media itself to exercise some restraint. People may be free to express themselves and Americans--and other democracies--highly value a free press. But having a free press doesn't mean that press is obliged to publish every utterance. Individual media can decide to be more selective. It has, in fact, recently started doing so by cutting away from the biggest liar when he begins lying, and calling attention to false claims as they are being made.

Democracies recognize, however, in curbing the speech of citizens is something not to be undertaken lightly. In the end, a better informed citizenry is probably is a nation's last best hope of remaining a democracy.

 

[firecat69]

I just think there is too much confusion about what Media was and what many now consider Media.

Facebook and Twitter etc are not Media in my mind . They are under no regulations, they allow every Tom ,Dick and Harry to post BS with no responsibility of what is posted. They cannot be taken to court and sued for money damages and thus are immune to right or wrong.

I watch Fox news sometimes and they certainly have a bias but there are things they will not allow to be said or inferred because of possible Legal Consequences. At least in the US, the major news outlets are careful not to cross the line of Bias vs Fiction.

FB and Twitter etc have no legal consequence because they have no news organizations. They allow any Tom, Dick,and Harry to post fantasy , lies etc with no consequences to their Money Machines as if they are News Organizations.

There are millions of people who get their news from these outlets and they legitimately think of them as real news outlets.  They consume what they view as news on the run and thus millions of these people will tell you that George Floyd was responsible for his own death .

So who is to Blame? In the US at least there is blame to go around but certainly it starts in the US Congress and at times  elevates itself to a Conservative Supreme Court.

This is what protects FB etc from being sued into oblivion and needs to be changed. Not sure about other Democratic countries but I guess they have the same kind of protection but we have members here who can comment?

https://www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/what-is-section-230-the-legislation-protecting-social-media/

[PeterRS]

If ever there was a case for a total revamp of the US electoral system, especially post election, we are seeing it now. As in the UK, there has to be a way to count all votes far more quickly and for the loser to move out of the White House within less than 24 hours. The present desperate state of affairs in Washington is a horrendous example to the rest of the world.

[vinapu]

6 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

The present desperate state of affairs in Washington is a horrendous example to the rest of the world.

Certainly lecturing other countries by USA about democracy will be much harder now courtesy to antics of 80% of Trump voters who apparently consider election was stolen from their misguided idol  

[reader]

There are three actions that would have to occur in order for votes to be tabulated with 24 hours of the close of polling places:

1. The deadline for mail-in ballots would have to be set at least 14 days prior to election day to allow sufficient time to process and count ballots.

2. A federal law is needed to require states to begin counting ballots as they are received. Currently, it is a state-by-state decision. Some states do not permit counting until election day.

3. Walk-in and drop-off voting needs to be permitted over an extended period beginning at least 21 days prior to election day. Currently decisions about this are made on a state-by-state basis.

Elimination of the Electoral College system would be a great improvement but that's a bridge too far with the current make up of congress.

As for the state of democracy in the US, the mighty effort to combat Trump--and his allies--attempts to subvert the will of the electorate demonstrated just how precious (and costly) freedom can be. Many republican election officials came forward to defend the validity of the vote that spelled defeat for their party's leader in several key states.

The information age, and the potential for misinformation it can generate, is perhaps the greatest threat to democracy everywhere.

 

[faranglaw]

9 hours ago, vinapu said:

Certainly lecturing other countries by USA about democracy will be much harder now courtesy to antics of 80% of Trump voters who apparently consider election was stolen from their misguided idol  

The purpose of this false accusation, that The Democrats have stolen the election, is not to overturn the results of this election. The idea is to establish a “stab in the back” theory, so that the next Fascist oriented politician, who will be smarter than DJT (Cotton, Cruz, Tucker Carlson), can use the conspiracy theory to win next time, or the time after that. They can then further unravel the democratic fabric and (re-)establish the (mostly White and very rich) oligarchy they think should run everything.

Biden will have to be very strong to avoid leading an American Weimar Republic.  I think he has been wildly underestimated and I have some hope he can pull it off. But there are, as we have seen, an enormous number of people who will believe this particular conspiracy theory, and, thanks to the NRA and the cowardly Republican Party, many of them have firearms. And of course they also have their very own sources of alternative reality news. Fox not crazy enough for ya? Welcome to Qanon, Newsmax, Parler.  

Not a great recipe for the future of my country of birth. Lucky me, having moved to Canada. But for the majority of my friends back home, American and world history does not provide much comfort just now. 

[faranglaw]

For those who want to dive deeper into this rabbit hole, I have two recommendations:

1. Google Heather Cox Richardson. She is an American History professor who offers two one hour lectures weekly. One on current politics and how it has evolved from the America past, and a second lecture that explores a particular theme in US history, usually focused on the 19th Century, her specialty.  Who knew, for example, that, in 1892, having lost his reelection bid, Republican President Benjamin Harrison proceeded to do everything he could to wreck the economy so his successor, Grover Cleveland, would be blamed. And it worked! The Democrats didn’t win another election for twenty years. (I warned you: rabbit hole)

2. Podcast: The New Abnormal, with Rick Wilson and Molly Jong-Fast. Fun profane banter about current politics by a Lincoln Project formerly highest level Republican operative now working for the Democrats, and a New York City left wing pundit. Lots of fun gossip about the Trump family crime syndicate, and interviews with interesting guests. 

[reader]

From Bangkok Post / Opinion

Is this the end for reckless populism?

By Gwynne Dyer

There is nothing wrong to participate in a sex party of any kind," said a source in the European Parliament. "However, such kinds of meetings with many people are illegal under the coronavirus laws."

To be specific, 25 naked men attending a loud party above a gay bar in central Brussels is clearly against Belgium's coronavirus laws, which allow no more than four people to meet indoors, so somebody called the police. At least three of those arrested were Members of the European Parliament (MEPs).

It was particularly unfortunate for Jozsef Szajer. He's a senior founding member of Hungary's ruling Fidesz party, an ultra-nationalist, populist, authoritarian grouping that defends "family values" and condemns homosexuality, but he was arrested while fleeing that orgy (with ecstasy pills in his backpack). Yet it's hard to feel much sympathy for him.

Mr Szajer was a leading anti-gay agitator in Fidesz, and boasts that he personally drafted the changes to the Hungarian constitution that defined marriage as being between a man and a woman. He has now resigned as the leader of the Hungarian delegation to the European Parliament, and will doubtless have to quit Fidesz too.

There was another scandal in Hungary last week, in which Szilard Demeter, a senior cultural official linked to Fidesz, wrote an opinion piece for a pro-government outlet comparing Budapest-born American billionaire George Soros, a Jew who fled the Holocaust, to Adolf Hitler.

Mr Demeter also called the European Union "George Soros's gas chamber", and claimed that Hungary and Poland, the two Eastern European EU members with extreme right populist governments, are "the new Jews" of Europe. It's utterly unhinged -- and yet it sounds vaguely familiar.

The unbridled arrogance, the self-pity, the shameless, hysterical exaggeration are all hallmarks of the new breed of "illiberal" populists -- and when they think they are losing, they always up the ante. I'm thinking, of course, of Donald Trump's recent electoral defeat and his subsequent behaviour.

Could that extraordinary recklessness be a communicable disease? Could it somehow be spreading to Mr Trump's acolytes overseas as well? Well, consider Poland.

The Catholic, ultra-conservative Law and Justice Party (PiS) has been in power in Poland since 2015, elected by the same older, less well educated, non-urban, deeply religious coalition that backs populist take-overs elsewhere. And as in other populist-ruled countries, there has been a steady erosion both in human rights and in respect for democratic norms.

The PiS was re-elected just last year, and its leader, 71-year-old Jarosław Kaczynski, was widely supposed to have his finger on Poland's pulse. But it all fell apart when a PiS-appointed court declared in late October that abortions would not be permitted even in cases of severe foetal abnormality where the child would die immediately after birth.

Poland already had tight restrictions on abortion rights, but this turned out to be the last straw. Millions of young people, and especially young women, filled the streets of Poland's cities in the biggest anti-government demonstrations since the fall of Communism in 1989.

The demos continued every day until a new lockdown was declared, and the PiS has now backed down, postponing the publication of the court's decision indefinitely. But something has definitely changed in Poland: support for Mr Kaczynski has now plunged.

Then there's President Jair Bolsonaro, or "Tropical Trump", whose favoured candidates were thrashed in all Brazil's big cities in local elections last month, and the United Kingdom's Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who is now trailing the opposition leader in the polls for the first time.

It's just straws in the wind at this stage, but the defeat of Mr Trump, the populist standard-bearer, is creating a sense in other populist-ruled countries that the juggernaut has stalled.

The effect hasn't reached Asia yet -- Prime Minister Narendra Modi in India and President Rodrigo Duterte in the Philippines are still riding very high in the polls -- but the main thing the populists had going for them was momentum, and in Western countries it seems to be dropping off.

Was there really a "coat-tail effect"? Hard to say. After all, both the PiS in Poland and Fidesz in Hungary came to power before Mr Trump was elected in late 2016. But populist leaders across the West seem to believe that somehow or other their fates are tied to Mr Trump's. It shows in the growing recklessness of their behaviour, and in the frequency of their failures.

Does this mean they are all destined to vanish in his wake? Probably not, but that would be nice.

[PeterRS]

On 11/27/2020 at 1:29 PM, firecat69 said:

I just think there is too much confusion about what Media was and what many now consider Media.

Facebook and Twitter etc are not Media in my mind . They are under no regulations, they allow every Tom ,Dick and Harry to post BS with no responsibility of what is posted. They cannot be taken to court and sued for money damages and thus are immune to right or wrong.

I watch Fox news sometimes and they certainly have a bias but there are things they will not allow to be said or inferred because of possible Legal Consequences. At least in the US, the major news outlets are careful not to cross the line of Bias vs Fiction.

FB and Twitter etc have no legal consequence because they have no news organizations. They allow any Tom, Dick,and Harry to post fantasy , lies etc with no consequences to their Money Machines as if they are News Organizations.

There are millions of people who get their news from these outlets and they legitimately think of them as real news outlets.  They consume what they view as news on the run and thus millions of these people will tell you that George Floyd was responsible for his own death .

So who is to Blame? In the US at least there is blame to go around but certainly it starts in the US Congress and at times  elevates itself to a Conservative Supreme Court.

This is what protects FB etc from being sued into oblivion and needs to be changed. Not sure about other Democratic countries but I guess they have the same kind of protection but we have members here who can comment?

https://www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/what-is-section-230-the-legislation-protecting-social-media/

A perceptive post. At the risk of incurring the ire of other posters, I return to a topic aired before - freedom of speech. It does sometimes seem to me that far too many people assume there are only two options here. You either have freedom of speech or you have the opposite: the restricted freedoms of communist and other totalitarian regimes. I am sure there are people in China, Russia etc who are fearful of what they say in public or sometimes even in private. Equally I know people in both countries who say virtually what they want, although within obvious limits - calling Xi or Putin a total moron would be unwise to say the least!

Yet these friends are constantly amazed that the President of the United States, members of Congress and other ordinary Americans routinely lie egregiously and routinely and few seem to care. They see Trump as a total liar. They see McConnell and Graham put hands on heart and swear they would never do something. Yet when RBG died, they did precisely the opposite. They outright lied.

As kids most of us will have had it drummed into us that we should not lie. If we do there can be consequences. Yet elected politicians and many ordinary folk get away with outrageous lying. How is this permitted under Freedom of Speech? Where are the responsibilities that all freedoms require? Why were the liars McConnell and Graham reelected? What is the difference between not being able to shout Fire in a crowded theater and yet being able to lie, libel and slander elsewhere virtually at will? 

I am all for quite severe restrictions being placed on the new media. Yet the freedom of speechers instantly shout "foul". We know that leaders in other countries have latched on to Trumps playbook and are using the new media to consolidate their power and policies. I have no idea how or if it can be done. But the start of restoring faith in democracy is surely the need to increase the responsibilities that come with freedom of what people can say.

[vinapu]

12 hours ago, reader said:

.... But populist leaders across the West seem to believe that somehow or other their fates are tied to Mr Trump's. It shows in the growing recklessness of their behaviour, and in the frequency of their failures.

Does this mean they are all destined to vanish in his wake? Probably not, but that would be nice.

Nobody could say it better

[PeterRS]

14 hours ago, reader said:

Does this mean they are all destined to vanish in his wake? Probably not, but that would be nice.

When the genie is out of the bottle and running loose, I defy anyone to chase after it, catch it and then find a way to stuff it back. We are in a new era - and not just because of covid19.

[anddy]

2 hours ago, PeterRS said:

When the genie is out of the bottle and running loose, I defy anyone to chase after it, catch it and then find a way to stuff it back.

Sadly, I have to agree with that. These things play out over much longer periods than just one election cycle. The orange monster hasn't called it quits, either, but rather as it looks will continue to pester the world with his twitter sewage and then run again in 2024. As for people like Duterte and Hun Sen and others, don't forget those get support from China and Russia, which don't give a shit about our democratic worries. That influence is only going to strengthen. US global influence has been diminishing long before Trump, but that was accelerated first by Trump (America first, yes, first down the drain), then by Covid and Trumps fucked up handling of it and rejection of international coopoeration. Biden can do only so much to restore confidence in the US. THAT genie is also out of the bottle, that an utterly untrustworthy president can come to power there (enabled by euqualy untrustworthy and spineless Republicans).

Oh well, enough doom & gloom for today lol. Maybe we're lucky and Americans see that a "normal" and effective government (Senate permitting) as demonstrated by Biden is better than the crap of the last 4 years. (hope dies last)