What to know before booking flights

[reader]

Various government agencies have issued conflicting information to in-bound travelers this week that could affect their arrival status. These involve flight origin and transit locations. 

If booking flights to Thailand, it seems prudent that we fully understand the implications of the latest statement. Having to self quarantine for two weeks if your traveling through any of the evolving list of locations (even as a transit only passenger) could take two weeks out of your trip. 

If there was ever a time to purchase flexible tickets, or those that can be changed and/or cancelled at reasonable cost, this is that time because there is no way to know —at least at the moment—what your status will be on the day of arrival.

If we’re lucky and this scourge is behind us in a few months, none of this will hopefully remain in effect. But considering the uncertainty (and constant “breaking news” coverage) it seems wise to give it its due.

From Bangkok Post Tuesday:

Thailand threw possibly tens of thousands of holiday plans into confusion after Public Health Minister Anutin Charnvirakul ordered any new arrivals from nine countries and two territories to undergo quarantine for the coronavirus, before swiftly reversing the decision. 

Mr Anutin posted an announcement Tuesday saying travellers from affected countries would be subjected to a 14-day quarantine "without exceptions".

The countries were China, South Korea, Japan, Germany, France, Singapore, Italy, Iran and Taiwan. Hong Kong and Macau were also included on the list.

The post was removed hours later, and his official Facebook page was taken down.

Mr Anutin's apparent moment of indecision — which raised concern on Twitter among Thais and foreign travellers — was played down Wednesday by Public Health Ministry spokesman Taweesin Visanuyothin.

From Bangkok Post today:

The government has defined four countries and two territories as dangerous zones and restrictions may follow to prevent the outbreak of coronavirus.

The announcement, dated Monday and published in the Royal Gazette on Thursday, classified South Korea, China, Macao, Hong Kong, Italy and Iran as "dangerous communicable disease areas".

The move came as the Thai postal service began disinfecting all packages received from overseas, although the World Health Organization has said it is safe to receive post from badly affected countries such as China.

No quarantine measure has been officially announced, but Public Health Ministry spokesman Rungrueng Kitphati told Reuters on Thursday it would come into effect on Friday. 

"Thais and foreigners who came from these places would have to go through self-quarantine for 14 days at home or in a hotel room, where they have to report themselves to the authorities every day or officials will come to check on them," Dr Rungrueng said.

This means that all arrivals from these places, including those that transit through them, will have to provide the authorities with their addresses and travel plans and be self-quarantined for 14 days.

[macaroni21]

The faux-pas of first putting up a notice on social media and then taking it down without saying whether it was cancelled or remained in effect will certainly make potential visitors reconsider all travel plans to Thailand. It's not just a matter of making flexible flight arrangements. Why make any arrangement at all if one cannot be sure whether one will be slapped with a quarantine order for 14 days on arrival? Today it is this country that is listed, tomorrow it may well be another country, including transit!

Who is going to go to Thailand just to admire the wallpaper inside a hotel room non-stop for 336 hours (14 days)? And pay for 14 nights to do so?

Uncertainty is the killer that will depress the country's tourism sector. The indecision, blundering and thoughtless policy announcements by this minister add to it.

I am pretty sure the tourism minister who has to answer for his sector's shortfall must be irate at this public health minister.

Mack.

 

 

[DivineMadman]

9 minutes ago, macaroni21 said:

The faux-pas of first putting up a notice on social media and then taking it down without saying whether it was cancelled or remained in effect will certainly make potential visitors reconsider all travel plans to Thailand. It's not just a matter of making flexible flight arrangements. Why make any arrangement at all if one cannot be sure whether one will be slapped with a quarantine order for 14 days on arrival? Today it is this country that is listed, tomorrow it may well be another country, including transit!

Who is going to go to Thailand just to admire the wallpaper inside a hotel room non-stop for 336 hours (14 days)? And pay for 14 nights to do so?

Uncertainty is the killer that will depress the country's tourism sector. The indecision, blundering and thoughtless policy announcements by this minister add to it.

I am pretty sure the tourism minister who has to answer for his sector's shortfall must be irate at this public health minister.

Mack.

 

 

I agree the health minister is a bit of a buffoon.  I read somewhere that he has ambitions.  We can only hope his mishandling of all of this stuff puts an end to that.

Personally, outside the magnifying glass of this forum (and similar) and some the Thailand-centric press, I don't think the minister's push-me-pull-you on his Facebook page is really going to make a difference to travelers' plans, and if it does, it will be very tiny and just at the margins.  It was only up for a few hours.  Of course with the numbers so small right now, every incremental bit hurts.  But I still doubt anyone from Belgium - to pick at random - is not going to visit Thailand because of this latest kerfuffle.  This virus is having such a huge impact on travel, I think this bit of buffoonery just gets lost in the noise, if it ever even was noticed by John Q. Traveler.  In any event, it's all been clarified.  

Countries at this point are being taken on and off the danger zone lists all the time, so to be fair, tourists from a country like Italy, etc., have to be used to all of this "you're not really welcome" treatment being a possibility.  And we all need to be prepared for our country - or a country we visit - to be added to the lists like this.  It's not just a Thailand issue.  I think everyone who is traveling now understands that uncertainty is the rule of the day.  Is any of us really  confident that our flights won't be cancelled or schedules changed?   I head to the U.S. for a bit in a few weeks.  I am fully prepared for Thailand to be on the CDC high risk list requiring home quarantine.  Vietnam was on a higher risk level, then off, and may go back on.  

The 14 day home quarantine rules are just the way to say "let's impose the rules the doctors say we should" without the heavy-handed absolute prohibition on visitors from, for example, China.  It's the same thing the U.S. has instituted for high risk countries.  I can't fault Thailand for it.  

 

[macaroni21]

Instead of having different departments issue varying statements, the government should have single department be in charge, preferably one that anchors policy-making on science and data.

Bangkok Post, 6 March 2020, 20:51h

Quarantine 'recommended' but enforcement unclear

Travellers from six high-risk areas must report daily health status or possibly face penalties

Authorities scrambled on Friday to ease worries about new self-quarantine measures for arrivals from six virus-hit countries and territories, a day after announcing compulsory isolation.

But confusion persists over whether the government is ordering or merely “recommending” self-quarantine for 14 days, with punishment for travellers who ignore the “advice”.

Read the rest of the article at https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/1873174/quarantine-recommended-but-enforcement-unclear

Mack.

[reader]

When everyone is in charge no one is in charge.

TIT

[anddy]

14 hours ago, reader said:

When everyone is in charge no one is in charge.

TIT

exactly.

Key quote from the Post article Mack posted above: "confusion persists" - we'll I'd say not only among the public trying to make sense of it all, but as much in the government. TIT indeed 555

[NIrishGuy]

On 3/6/2020 at 5:15 AM, DivineMadman said:

 But I still doubt anyone from Belgium - to pick at random - is not going to visit Thailand because of this latest kerfuffle.  

I wouldn't be to sure about that if I were you as I for one, travelling from the UK am having EXACTLY that thought at this very minute re my proposed trip to Thailalnd next month and that stupidly issued and then deleted statement certainly hasn't helped matters!

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, NIrishGuy said:

I wouldn't be to sure about that if I were you as I for one, travelling from the UK ........!

keep in mind it may be you last chance of travelling from UK before you guys join Republic, then you will be travelling from there

[NIrishGuy]

You must think you know something the rest of us dont here! ?  But as you obviously have little idea what you're talking about so i'll not even bother correcting you, aside from saying I already can and do travel from the Republic of Ireland a lot if and when it suits me and that has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on anything to do with Nationality or Sovereignty, it's simply a matter of logistics.

[Boy69]

 

[macaroni21]

That having been said, Thailand isn't the only country where "confusion persists".

Sydney Morning Herald, 8 March 2020:

Quote

 

[Victorian minister Gabrielle Williams] urged unwell people to stay at home, regardless of whether they had recently returned from overseas or been in contact with someone who had tested positive to coronavirus.

“You should not be presenting to work, and you should be doing what you can to be tested,” she said.

“This is about containing a very significant health issue and we are unapologetic about doing all we can to keep the Victorian community safe."

The Victorian government's latest advice is inconsistent with the advice of federal health authorities, which up until Friday had been advising only those who had travelled overseas and felt unwell to get tested - rather than anyone who had been showing flu-like symptoms.

Ms Williams said the situation was “evolving” and that the state government was in talks with the Commonwealth about the conflicting position.

 

Source: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/two-australian-defence-force-members-test-positive-for-coronavirus-20200308-p547yr.html

Meanwhile, news about Australia's Great Toilet Paper Scramble has travelled around the world even faster than the virus 

Mack.

[spoon]

This is exactly overreacting will do. If what i read is true, that it does transmit the same flu is, and even asymptomatic person can also transmit the virus, no travel restriction will be effective anyway in combating the spread. Itll slow down for sure but will never stop it. What travel reatriction and virus scares really do is hurting the economy, hurting the income of business that rely on tourism, hurting the factories, hurting the import and exports. What should be focused on are for all nation to ensure their healthcare are up to standard to face such pandemic if and when it happened. That includes having enough budget allocated for health. I know some countries are doing a good job at this but clearly some are not. And with the economy being badly hurt, itll make it much harder to channel money towards healthcare, let alone research on vaccines and cures. Heck, we couldve had a vaccine had the SARS vaccine research continues, or at least very close to have one given how similar this virus is to SARS, even being named SARS-cov2.

Malaysia currently having a second wave of cluster infection, almost all linked to a person. That person travelled to shanghai and came back on 17th january, and tested positive 27february, 6 weeks after, so he might got infected from an unknown person locally instead. He is a high profile guy who is dierector of company and board of member of another, and lots of close contact with him tested positive now. Not as bad as south korean church though. 

It is inevitable and i do believe a delay by travel restriction will actually help in countries with poor health care, as what happened in wuhan, is not what all want to see elsewhere. I did google how an outbreak ends, its either a cure or vaccine is found/developed (like smallpox), or enough people has been infected and developed antibodies against it and no more new infection happening, or it becomes a normal infection where u can get it everwhere and is no longer considered localized and can be contained (like H1N1). 

[DivineMadman]

I was assuming people who cared had already found out, but just in case, Babylon posted a few days ago that they have closed the "Rest cabins" in Building B.  Whatever that means.

Recommended workaround is bring guy(s) to your room.  Rinse.  Repeat.

[spoon]

Is rest cabin is their hotel?

[DivineMadman]

15 minutes ago, spoon said:

Is rest cabin is their hotel?

I don't know.  I was assuming it meant private rooms where men who have just met can go and do calisthenics in private.... I don't think the whole place was shutting down.

[reader]

From Bangkok Post 

Airlines may face virus medical bills in new rules: CAA

Thailand’s aviation regulator said airlines should ask passengers coming from high-risk territories for health certificates to establish they are free of the new coronavirus.

Travellers who can’t provide documentation should be prevented from boarding flights to the Asian nation, according to a Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand notice posted Monday. Carriers are liable for treatment costs if they fly in people who become sick with Covid-19, the notice said.

The new framework applies to six territories: China, Hong Kong, Macau, South Korea, Iran and Italy. Thailand has designated them danger zones for infection, as it steps up efforts against Covid-19 after so far restricting the number of confirmed cases to 50.

The Tourism Authority of Thailand, a government agency, wrote on Facebook on Monday that travellers coming from the six regions “will undergo 14 days quarantine,” adding more details will be announced shortly.

“We advise all travellers to consider carefully whether they still want to pursue their journey,” the authority wrote.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/1874954/airlines-may-face-virus-medical-bills-in-new-rules-caa#cxrecs_s

[spoon]

Lol thailand aviation regulator dont decide for asian nation. They can decide for flight boardint for thailand only.

[DivineMadman]

19 minutes ago, spoon said:

Lol thailand aviation regulator dont decide for asian nation. They can decide for flight boardint for thailand only.

To be fair I think the Thai aurthorites -- and the article --- didn't try to say that the thai regulators were applying that rule to flights to all asian nations.  "Travellers who can’t provide documentation should be prevented from boarding flights to the Asian nation."  (emphasis added by me.). It says "the" not "a" or "any".  So it's referring back to, and describing, "the" Asian country ... Thailand.  

That's how a lot of press agencies seem to write dispatches.  "Bhutan shuts it's borders.... No foreigners will be allowed into the Himalayan kingdom....."

 

[spoon]

24 minutes ago, DivineMadman said:

To be fair I think the Thai aurthorites -- and the article --- didn't try to say that the thai regulators were applying that rule to flights to all asian nations.  "Travellers who can’t provide documentation should be prevented from boarding flights to the Asian nation."  (emphasis added by me.). It says "the" not "a" or "any".  So it's referring back to, and describing, "the" Asian country ... Thailand.  

That's how a lot of press agencies seem to write dispatches.  "Bhutan shuts it's borders.... No foreigners will be allowed into the Himalayan kingdom....."

 

If its written by someone not from thailand, referring the nation as third party, the asian nation, seems logical. Im not sure if the writer or bangkokpost is from thailand or not. 

[DivineMadman]

3 minutes ago, spoon said:

If its written by someone not from thailand, referring the nation as third party, the asian nation, seems logical. Im not sure if the writer or bangkokpost is from thailand or not. 

For your amusement, Exact same article in Free Malaysia Today news website.  https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/world/2020/03/09/thailand-makes-airlines-liable-for-virus-infected-passengers-medical-bills/    Same "the Asian nation."  

Credited to Bloomberg.

[spoon]

Ok make sense then if bloomberg write the article hehe. 

[reader]

2 hours ago, reader said:

“We advise all travellers to consider carefully whether they still want to pursue their journey,” the authority wrote.

This is the key takeaway for me. When the Tourism Authority recommends you reconsider you’re trip, a prudent traveler might well take heed.

Give them an “A” for not mincing words. 

I’ve seen many events that have engendered outright panic among investors and the public at large but few approaching this level. I’m reminded of the advice of legendary investor Warren Buffett: buy when others are fearful, sell when others are greedy.

 

[macaroni21]

gpfun69 posted on the thread "Face Masks, Gel etc" an announcement that seems to come from the Thai government. I think it's more appropriate to discuss it here. The new rules are so sweeping, airlines may stop flights to Thailand altogether. Looks like another example of over-reaction by officials without thinking things through.

Read point 5 carefully:

Quote

 

5. The Communicable Disease Control officials at the control post at the airport of disembarkation have the power to issue an order under Thailand’s Communicable Diseases Act 2015 as follows:

(3) Take or make an order to the air operators to take the following action:

(a) Disinfect the disease in order to prevent and control the spread of the disease.

(b) Detain the aircraft at a specified place until the Communicable Disease Control officials at the control post permit to depart.

(c) Require the persons on board the aircraft to undergo a medical examination and may also isolate, quarantine, confine them for observation, or order to receive immunisation at a place and period to be specified.

 

So if Thai officials find one passenger, out of say 250, disembarking a plane to be Covid-positive, the aircraft can be detained in Thailand; all passengers can be required to stay on board for a medical examination....

What is not terribly clear to me is whether this rule applies only to airlines flying in from the named "disease-infected zones" (China+HK+Macao, Iran, SouthKorea and Italy) or if this rule applies to any aircraft landing in Thailand. If it is the former, chances are that the airline won't be flying to Thailand at all so the rule is moot. But if it is the latter, then all airlines will wonder if this rule can throw flight schedules completely out of whack, causing serious knock-on effects and losses. Would it be worthwhile to take the risk and still fly to Thailand?

Quote

6. Air operators shall be responsible for the expenses incurred relating to the isolation, quarantine, confinement for observation, and immunisation of the persons on board, including the expenses for the care, hospitalisation and prevention and control of international communicable diseases.

Rule #6 is also not clear whether it applies only to airlines flying in from the four listed countries, or if it applies to all airlines. The incalculable cost of paying for quarantine and hospitalisation of passengers would make any financial controller blanche. Is it worth continuing to operate routes into Thailand? airlines will ask themselves.

Mack.

[anddy]

It seems pretty clear to me that these things only apply to flights originating in the "Disease Infected Zone":

Quote

On 8 March, 2020, the CAAT has issued the following guidelines for all air operators in order to provide practical guidance for the air operators performing flights between those Disease Infected Zones and to support the surveillance measures taken by the Ministry of Public Health.

1. Where the Ministry of Public Health defines any territory outside Thailand as a Disease Infected Zone of the COVID-19, passengers from such Disease Infected Zone shall be subject to quarantine and any other measures for the prevention and control of communicable diseases as imposed by the Government of Thailand.

2. Air operators providing services from the airport of embarkation in the Disease Infected Zones are required to perform the screening of the passengers at the time of check in. The passengers need to present a Health Certificate certifying that they have no risk of COVID-19. If any passenger is unable to present such certificate, boarding shall be denied and the boarding pass shall not be issued.

Further to @macaroni21's comment about "another example of over-reaction by officials without thinking things through", the requirement marked in red is another such item. Such a certificate is impossible to issue, or if issued, it can't be relied. on. Who is supposed to determine someone "has no risk of covid-19"? Any GP? Or just hospitals? And how? And when, like on the day of departure? Or a day before? Or two? The passenger might be free of the virus in the morning (or two days prior), get the certificate, then catch it somewhere between then and boarding the aircraft. It's just not possible. It's not like the certificates needed for some types of visa that the person doesn't have stage 3 Syphilis or Leprosy, or Elephantiasis, where a negative certification is possible. Silly,

 

Source of quote: https://www.tatnews.org/2020/03/tat-update-notification-of-the-civil-aviation-authority-of-thailand-on-covid-19-control-measures/

 

[DivineMadman]

It would certainly seem to be simpler just to ban travelers from the countries on the "super-bad" list, but in the absence of that, requiring the medical certificate smacks of a compromise to avoid that draconian step.  It's just a face-saving way of saying "you can't come in."  Other countries are doing similar inconsistent/imperfect things.  Home quarantine for all visitors a la Israel is surely imperfect as well.

Personally, I don't get all bolloxed up over whether it is practical to obtain and obviously there are gaps between the issuance of the certificate and entering the country for any disease.  It's another of those situations where "do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good."  Biggest impact will be just to stop people from those countries trying to visit.  If someone really cares enough to get the certificate, it provides some level of protection, even if imperfect.  Then screen on arrival for fever (and presumably before embarkation as well).  It all seems to be the understandable result of practical people trying to do the right thing.  

Again, it would certainly be simpler to ban everyone from those countries. 

ThaiVisa had a report that the same thing was being required for visa applications in Penang.