39 illegals, majority Vietnamese, perish in refrigerated lorry

[hank75]

Essex lorry deaths: Appeal to Vietnamese over victims' identities

A very tragic incident this week, 39 bodies were found inside a refrigerated lorry attempting to cross the UK border. As the story unravels it appears many were young Vietnamese from the Ha Tinh region. 

Many boys and girls from the Thai bar scene are from this impoverished region. I personally know at least two if not more. To learn that their fellow villagers were willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars to gamble their lives in illegal trafficking gives us an insight why others choose to sell their bodies in neighbouring Thailand. 

[reader]

Did you take some perverse pleasure in labeling the deceased Vietnamese as “illegals” in your headline?

I believe they deserve some final dignity, not a political broadside.

 

[hank75]

1 hour ago, reader said:

Did you take some perverse pleasure in labeling the deceased Vietnamese as “illegals” in your headline?

I believe they deserve some final dignity, not a political broadside.

 

I am not sure why you think “illegals” is perverse, perhaps there is some implication that I am not aware of. I used the word (which to me seems completely neutral and has also been used repeatedly in varying and apolitical news articles internationally) because it felt appropriate to recap the situation, they were attempting to cross the UK border illegally. This is a fact. “Migrants” is not accurate as implies migration according to law, and apparently they were carrying fake documents which they also used to gain entry to other European countries. And “39 Vietnamese” I think is even more offensive particularly since it has not been absolutely established that all are from Vietnam alone. I suggest you focus on the big picture of this tragedy rather than nitpicking on what was only meant to be an effort at being succinct.

[reader]

Oh, it’s the big picture you suggest that I concern myself with. Guess that must be illegal immigration and not the truly horrible manner of their death at the hands of smugglers who are legal citizens. Think I get it.

Gee, Hank, for someone who claims to know “at least two if not more” boys and girls from the Thai bar scene, your comments seem....how can I say this succinctly...void of compassion for these folks? 

And for some reason, you felt compelled to call attention to the fact that the impoverished Vietnamese prostitute themselves (or as you succinctly said, “sell their bodies”). 

Yes, think I’m beginning to see your big picture more clearly now.

Thanks for clarifying things, Hank. There nothing like getting the facts from the horse’s mouth.

[hank75]

I posted this with the simple intention of sharing news and mentioning to this forum (probably the only forum that would understand) why this news hit a little closer to home for me. I believe everyone else who read this focused on the very sad state of affairs, and you are the only one quarrelling over semantics.

Get off your soapbox and stop using a news alert as a means of launching unprovoked attacks. Calling a spade a spade does not in anyway signify lack of compassion. You’re not exactly behaving in the most generous spirit yourself. This is all I have to say, so if you choose to keep nitpicking, the only reply you will get is the echo of your own loud opinions. 

[PeterRS]

Guys, with the greatest respect, I think this tragedy is above petty nit-picking and word meanings. We all know what happened to those poor Vietnamese (and perhaps some Chinese) and how they found themselves in that situation. Lets have some respect for those who must have died in horrible circumstances. There is also a thread on this on Gay Asia. Maybe best to stick with that one. Just a thought.

[reader]

37 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

 Lets have some respect for those who must have died in horrible circumstances. There is also a thread on this on Gay Asia. Maybe best to stick with that one. Just a thought.

It was the lack of respect in the OP’s message that prompted my response. It’s far from petty nitpicking when poster associates the dead with a proclivity for prostitution and branding them “illegals” instead of the victims of a vicious crime.

 I didn’t misquote him. I used his direct quotes. 

I agree with your suggestion that the thread in Gay Asia forum is more appropriate. I’m certainly willing to do just that.

 

[hank75]

Ok I am sorry to wade back in here after saying I would not...and I fully agree with PeterRS. So this is absolutely my last post on this subject... only to clarify my position. 

But I did NOT associate these 39 dead with a proclivity for prostitution. I merely said now I understood in greater clarity the background and lack of choices of some Vietnamese boys I’ve met in the bars, as I know 2-3 who are from Ha Tinh, the same region as some of the 39. And yes, these boys are prostitutes. . No point being precious about it. This is not the forum for hand-wringing about prostitution, honestly. However I repeat, I did NOT say any of the deceased were prostitutes. 

Why can’t the 39 be illegal immigrants as well as victims of a vicious crime? This is fact. One does not cancel out the other, nor does it mean I do not feel complete and utter sympathy for them. If you only live life in shades of black and white, you will lead a very blinkered existence my friend. 

[DivineMadman]

1 hour ago, hank75 said:

Ok I am sorry to wade back in here after saying I would not...and I fully agree with PeterRS. So this is absolutely my last post on this subject... only to clarify my position. 

But I did NOT associate these 39 dead with a proclivity for prostitution. I merely said now I understood in greater clarity the background and lack of choices of some Vietnamese boys I’ve met in the bars, as I know 2-3 who are from Ha Tinh, the same region as some of the 39. And yes, these boys are prostitutes. . No point being precious about it. This is not the forum for hand-wringing about prostitution, honestly. However I repeat, I did NOT say any of the deceased were prostitutes. 

Why can’t the 39 be illegal immigrants as well as victims of a vicious crime? This is fact. One does not cancel out the other, nor does it mean I do not feel complete and utter sympathy for them. If you only live life in shades of black and white, you will lead a very blinkered existence my friend. 

I think many/most of the regulars on this board know 2-3, actually often more, guys from Ha Tinh.  (At least those who have kept an open mind about VN guys.)  Indeed, there is rumored to be a statue to Paulsf there.   That may help explain why nerves are raw.

Still, what you or I or any of us write reflects choices and thoughts.  Personally, in my opinion, choosing "IIlegals" as the headline word to describe the victims is fairly open to criticism.  "Undocumenteds" is the neutral term.  Applying the label "illegals" is a choice, and a negative one at that.  Maybe you didn't know that.  Maybe you didn't care.  I don't know.  But why any of that is at the forefront is beyond me.  These were people.  Dreamers and strivers.  

By the same token, choosing to say that the guys here "sell their bodies" is about as demeaning a way to describe them as you can find.  And I think that's the criticism.  Obviously they're prostitutes (sex workers).  The point is, particularly in the context of a tragedy --  but really always -- dignity and respect are called for.   That's not "hand-wringing about prostitution."  If anything, it's the opposite.  It's getting the idea out there that they're young men and sex workers they're and owed all the same respect as any man or woman, and the words we use to describe them should convey that.  So when you have a choice to describe them or what they do, pick the one that shows respect.

One of the downsides of putting anything out there in writing is that it can be picked apart.  Maybe it's an opportunity to learn something.  Or not.  

Also, it's good that this tragedy helped your, and with luck other's, understanding of the economic pressures these guys are under.  I and others are always are urging people to go with the guys to their home villages, spend time really getting to know them, then you can learn this sort of stuff without such a tragedy.  

[hank75]

47 minutes ago, DivineMadman said:

I think many/most of the regulars on this board know 2-3, actually often more, guys from Ha Tinh.  (At least those who have kept an open mind about VN guys.)  Indeed, there is rumored to be a statue to Paulsf there.   That may help explain why nerves are raw.

Still, what you or I or any of us write reflects choices and thoughts.  Personally, in my opinion, choosing "IIlegals" as the headline word to describe the victims is fairly open to criticism.  "Undocumenteds" is the neutral term.  Applying the label "illegals" is a choice, and a negative one at that.  Maybe you didn't know that.  Maybe you didn't care.  I don't know.  But why any of that is at the forefront is beyond me.  These were people.  Dreamers and strivers.  

By the same token, choosing to say that the guys here "sell their bodies" is about as demeaning a way to describe them as you can find.  And I think that's the criticism.  Obviously they're prostitutes (sex workers).  The point is, particularly in the context of a tragedy --  but really always -- dignity and respect are called for.   That's not "hand-wringing about prostitution."  If anything, it's the opposite.  It's getting the idea out there that they're young men and sex workers they're and owed all the same respect as any man or woman, and the words we use to describe them should convey that.  So when you have a choice to describe them or what they do, pick the one that shows respect.

One of the downsides of putting anything out there in writing is that it can be picked apart.  Maybe it's an opportunity to learn something.  Or not.  

Also, it's good that this tragedy helped your, and with luck other's, understanding of the economic pressures these guys are under.  I and others are always are urging people to go with the guys to their home villages, spend time really getting to know them, then you can learn this sort of stuff without such a tragedy.  

My point is, whether you approve of my choice of words or not, is not to lose sight of the big picture and tragedy here. Or that as you rightly pointed out, it helps our understanding of the boys we encounter. I was pretty amazed that this particular aspect was dismissed and the response was only to pick apart the use of the word “illegals”

I am very open to receiving input to my choice of words if it is done nicely and respectfully, which you have, and I appreciate. Personally I don’t see anything wrong in saying “sell their bodies” which is factual and does not dismiss the person behind the job. This is literally splitting hairs over the associations words have for different people and cultures. But I can accept you may have a different view, and we can all agree on this and move on. I actually find more offensive the labels “prostitues” and “whores” which I think is even more demeaning and objectifies the entire person, yet have been used multiple times on this forum because others feel this is a factual description too. But you don’t see me jumping down someone else’s throat about this. 

I have no objection to being asked to alter my choice of words. But I don’t appreciate being attacked at all. 

[reader]

Hank, you just keep doubling down on the illegal aspect. 

You were well aware that there was already a thread stared on this topic. But you chose to start a new one to get the word illegals out front and use it as a platform for your personal political motive. 

If you want to discuss UK immigration issues, I have no problem with it. Start a legitimate thread about it. But don’t do on the backs of 39 murder victims.

It was disrespectful in particular to the Vietnamese.

 

[faranglaw]

How did it come to this, that being born in a poor country, that country becomes a great big prison you are not allowed to leave? Under what ethical system is that really OK?  I agree with the sign held up by a demonstrator here in Boston, demonstrating outside an ICE detention facility:  “No one is illegal.”  Why is it so difficult to say, “My choice of words was inappropriate; thanks for pointing it out.”

[vinapu]

5 hours ago, faranglaw said:

How did it come to this, that being born in a poor country, that country becomes a great big prison you are not allowed to leave? Under what ethical system is that really OK? 

I don't think problem is with people  not being allowed to leave ,

problem is they are not allowed to be admitted. Hence all those visa regimes and wall countries  are trying to built around their borders under leadership of Orange Overlords of the world to applaud of many of their citizens , themselves descendants of those who often came because they wanted to , not because they were invited.

[hank75]

10 hours ago, reader said:

Hank, you just keep doubling down on the illegal aspect. 

You were well aware that there was already a thread stared on this topic. But you chose to start a new one to get the word illegals out front and use it as a platform for your personal political motive. 

If you want to discuss UK immigration issues, I have no problem with it. Start a legitimate thread about it. But don’t do on the backs of 39 murder victims.

It was disrespectful in particular to the Vietnamese.

 

No I was not aware. Because, this appears to be the board for current affairs while the other board is for Gay interest. 

You just can’t let this go can you? Perhaps it has not even crossed your narrow mind that nothing about my original post was intended to be political, only your overly suspicious perception of it. You need to stop doubling down on the attacks now.

[hank75]

8 hours ago, faranglaw said:

How did it come to this, that being born in a poor country, that country becomes a great big prison you are not allowed to leave? Under what ethical system is that really OK?  I agree with the sign held up by a demonstrator here in Boston, demonstrating outside an ICE detention facility:  “No one is illegal.”  Why is it so difficult to say, “My choice of words was inappropriate; thanks for pointing it out.”

I am happy to say it, if it is pointed out in a productive tone. If you go back to reader’s first response, he accused me of taking some kind of “perverse pleasure” in the situation. I very much object to this type of malicious and personal attack, especially when the other party cannot conceive that other forum posters may come from countries/environments where certain phrases are simply not as politicised or loaded as he assumes them to be.

[faranglaw]

IMNSHO it would have been better if both of you had allowed Divine Madman’s thoughtful post be the last word. My thanks to DM for going a little deeper on this.

[traveller123]

I feel quite sorry for Hank75 on this series of posts.

I am sure he used the word Illegals as a factual description of a group of people trying to enter a country without the correct papers

I have a great deal of sympathy for the people driven to enter the West by their circumstances at home but please don't let us ascribe some motive to Hank which is almost certainly not there.

RIP to the victims of trafficking

 

[reader]

If I was like Hank I’d say this is the last thing I’ll have to say on the subject. But he went on to do just the opposite.

Why was I not surprised.

He won’t tire of defending his description of the murder victims as illegals nor will I tire of calling him on it when he does.

It was as disrespectful the first time he said it as it was the last time. And I have no doubt whatsoever that he’ll go on using it.

 I was fully amendable to Peter’s suggestion that we abandon this thread and use the original one but Hank persisted in pursuing this platform. 

 

 

 

[hank75]

Now they are murder victims? Despite the brutality of their treatment, I highly doubt there was the intentional element of premeditated killing. For someone preaching political correctness and respect, you sure are happy to embellish the truth when it suits you. Is this what you mean by agenda-free word choice? 

Seriously this has gotten ridiculous. Please take your own advice and abandon this thread.

[reader]

So now your major concern is that the perpetrators aren’t overcharged. Your sympathy for them, Hank, overwhelms me 

The perpetrators placed living souls inside a sealed, refrigerated container and drove them around until they died due to lack of oxygen.

Along comes Hank now with his “nothing to see here” defense of those responsible. 

Your intent is as transparent as glass. You’re making the leap to the blame the victim side.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

On 10/28/2019 at 11:47 PM, vinapu said:

I don't think problem is with people  not being allowed to leave ,

problem is they are not allowed to be admitted. Hence all those visa regimes and wall countries  are trying to built around their borders under leadership of Orange Overlords of the world to applaud of many of their citizens , themselves descendants of those who often came because they wanted to , not because they were invited.

This is generally correct.    

Obviously in the past, we have had states like the DDR building walls to imprison their own population.  However, today I think fewer countries do this.   North Korea is one example.  As far as I can tell, Vietnamese with passports are free to travel.  The evidence is in some gogo bars.

So the issue is more with countries refusing entry.   Also, might I say with very good reason.   Some European countries are already very densely populated and if we had no restrictions on immigration, I would not be surprised to see the population increase by 20 million per year or more.   This would make living here unbearable, cause loads of social tension and potentially turn the country into something resembling Pakistan or Algeria.   With increased security issues as well.   

So immigration controls are necessary.

What amazes me is the number of people who are prepared to risk their lives to get from one prosperous country (France) to another similarly prosperous country (UK).    The UK really ought to look at the motivations for this and take steps to make the country more unwelcoming for illegal immigrants.

I also presume the 39 people would not have been caught had they all walked out of the truck alive.  You would think some of the smugglers are smart enough not to put people in refrigerated compartments with the cooling on.    So how many more truckloads actually make it here ?  

Finally, as far as I can tell, the Vietnamese have never had it so good.    The days when they had pure socialism screwing up the economy and insufficient food are long gone.  There are free market reforms and a rapidly growing GDP.    Way better than in the days when they used to travel to Hong Kong on rickety old boats.   

You would think living in the UK and not being able to work legally or rent accommodation legally wouldn't be much better than Vietnam.

[reader]

2 hours ago, z909 said:

As far as I can tell, Vietnamese with passports are free to travel.  The evidence is in some gogo bars.

This may come as a complete shock to you, 909, but most of the Vietnamese working in Thailand are employed in work other than gogo bars. 

2 hours ago, z909 said:

Finally, as far as I can tell, the Vietnamese have never had it so good.    

And of course your basing this on your personal experience of having visited the impoverished provinces where the 39 deceased Vietnamese came from.

 

[vinapu]

5 hours ago, z909 said:

 

Finally, as far as I can tell, the Vietnamese have never had it so good.    The days when they had pure socialism screwing up the economy and insufficient food are long gone.  There are free market reforms and a rapidly growing GDP.    Way better than in the days when they used to travel to Hong Kong on rickety old boats.   

You would think living in the UK and not being able to work legally or rent accommodation legally wouldn't be much better than Vietnam.

immigrant's, legal or not , motivation often boils down  to difference in purchasing power of unit of income .  ( Of course this is  not about people escaping hunger or persecution as their motives as not questionable at all )

If you need to work whole year, if only year,  to save for motorbike    and you know that even if you manage to save just 1/3 of your minimum western pay  and over year you will have enough to buy a car in your country or built a simple home , then you are heavily motivated to risk plenty to improve your lot in life , even if you have acceptable standard of living in your own country.

Such  dream perhaps motivated  all those  fallen  men in that ill - fateful truck.

Dollar, pound, Euro and in some countries even baht goes longer way in many countries that in their place of issue. It's why you have so many Polish and other East Europeans in UK even if those countries are by no mean poverty stricken.

This  is  the same reason some Westerners are leaving all and sundry in order to retire in Thailand expecting that their meager pension by their country  standard  will buy them way more comfortable  golden years in LOS.

When I was visiting Mandalay in 2001 I was shown quite spacious house with big garden which was on the market for 2300 USD , yes two thousand three hundred . It meant that if  somebody  was working whole 1 year ,  just 8 hours a day , 5 days a week and managed to save just 1.15 USD per hour worked , in one year would have then enough to buy that place. 

[alex303]

I live less than 15 miles away from the port where those poor people were found so fair to say 'I'm on the Ground here'...as DivineMadman wisely said 'feelings are raw' especially for those of us who have deep and meaningful links with the Vietnamese community.

I don't think its wrong to say that these people were murdered effectively...at very least manslaughter and last time I heard that's in line with some of the charges the gang (they've rounded up so far on the UK/European side) are being charged with.  If you place 39 human beings in a refrigerated container with limited air supply and they die, I think its fair to say you had more than a hand in their deaths. 

A lot of those young people who started out on that journey by all accounts thought they had some type of 'VIP ticket' and probably never expected to find themselves in that life or death type situation, but I suspect by the time they were confronted with it i.e. getting in the truck or not...in that situation having travelled so far they must have felt immense pressure to continue on.

[reader]

21 hours ago, z909 said:

 The UK really ought to look at the motivations for this and take steps to make the country more unwelcoming for illegal immigrants.

So you don’t think killing everyone in the lorry qualifies as sufficiently unwelcoming?