LIVING IN THAILAND IS LESS FUN

[martinsen]

Living here is getting to be a severe problem.  The Thai government appears to want to make it as difficult as they can for expats to reside in Thailand.  More laws to cause us problems such as TM30, 90 day reporting and other harassment in acquiring  a visa extension.  The documentation they require is now about 8 pages and some they make you sign are exclusively in Thai language and you don't know what you are signing.  What I really do not understand is WHY.  Most of us spend a lot of money here but they continue to pile on problems for us.

It is much better to just visit for a limited time.  Come for a couple of weeks and go home to the West.  You don't have a serious visa problem and most of the other silly requirements do not have to be deal with. They are much more welcoming to tourist.

[Boy69]

I guess they are targeting to short time visiting tourists and want to reduce the number of long terms expats for some reasons we don't exactly know.

[DivineMadman]

First of all, for me there is a giant disconnect between the new immigration rules that affect long-term stayers and the broad [over]statement that somehow "Living in Thailand is Less Fun."  I am having as much or more as I've ever had in Thailand.  

There's nothing new about 90-Day reports.  Not sure why that's being dredged up.

The new rules regarding seasoning funds before/after retirement extensions of stay for the 400K/800K people were put in place to stop the unscrupulous types using brokers (lenders) to stuff a bank account for the short instant when they applied for the extension of stay.  To me that actually seems like a reasonable thing to do in response to an issue.  Hardly some evil conspiracy to make Thailand less fun.

For people on the income verification method, life became more difficult because the 4 embassies decided that they would stop giving the income certificate.  So the thing that changed there was those 4 foreign embassies.  Again, not the big bad Thai government.

TM-30 admittedly is a shitshow.  It had been ignored for us regular folk in Bangkok and many provinces, but actually was being enforced in some provinces (and life somehow went on for the people living there).  Personally, I think we're stuck with it for a while.  It's rule and someone big said it was time to enforce it.  That big person might be a bit tone deaf on the PR consequences.  All we can do is wait and "watch".  [Get it - there's a pun of sorts - maybe it was his committee???.].   Why it's really happening, who the hell knows?  There's stuff going at the highest levels that I think is beyond foreigners trying to understand.  There's a different faction in the military in the ascendant right now.  Does all this have anything to do with the old faction (Prawit/Prayut)?  Not a clue.  There is, I believe, also some legit security anxiety when more than 30 million tourists are crossing the borders.  Does that play a part?  Not a clue.  I think it's very hard for bureaucrats and their bureau-bosses to turn off a rule once they've revived it.  

Or maybe it's all just punishment for whatever the real story was behind Big Joke's departure.  Remember when people thought he was the problem?  Oh, to have him back.....

And yes, this means the good guys get caught up in the rules that are aimed at the bad guys, but that happens all the time.  That's why we have to take off our shoes at the airport.

I read a report of a business roundtable meeting with Immigration about TM-30.  One speaker, a European woman, said that in some countries in Europe there are complicated rules when a foreigner lives in your home - she cited France - and others where the rules were more relaxed - she mentioned Germany and the Netherlands, I think.  The point being that different countries have different regimes.  In many, many, many ways, Thailand is easier for foreign long-term visitors than other countries.  

I do think that it is important for us all to realize that, "They should be grateful we're here" does not play well to Thai bureaucrats and the upper middle class that is running the show.  Just sayin'.

But, at the end of the day, if the difficulties outweigh the benefits of staying in a particular place, then DON'T GO THERE.  There is vast easily accessible trove of information of happiness studies and enjoying life.  Endlessly whining and complaining is not the path happiness.  If TM-30 makes Thailand sufficiently not fun, don't go and find a better place.  DON'T STAY IN THAILAND AND BE UNHAPPY.  Or, stay in Thailand and make the best of it all.   MAXIMIZE YOUR HAPPINESS.  

[PeterRS]

2 hours ago, DivineMadman said:

The new rules regarding seasoning funds before/after retirement extensions of stay for the 400K/800K people were put in place to stop the unscrupulous types using brokers (lenders) to stuff a bank account for the short instant when they applied for the extension of stay.  To me that actually seems like a reasonable thing to do in response to an issue.  Hardly some evil conspiracy to make Thailand less fun

So tying up 800,00/400,000 baht in an account which can never be used nor released till after death is reasonable? It is utter madness! This is especially true for those many expats who have actually invested many millions of baht in purchasing a home. If I have a home worth around 7 million baht, for what possible reason should I now be asked to deposit what is effectively a penalty of $26,000? The plain fact is that without crooked Immigration staff, there would be no problem. The agents could not make a quick buck and the crook expats who each year defied the law would be kicked out. It is those of us who obeyed the rules for years and years that are the only ones really affected.  Yes I know. Why not switch to the monthly payment scheme? Impossible unless first you have a pension (not all do) and that pension equals around $2,200, That may be easy for Americans on social security. A UK citizen on the basic pension gets beer money that amounts to not much more than a quarter of that.

To me is is wholly unreasonable and utterly ridiculous. It is merely a financial penalty for many that would not be necessary if Immigration actually bothered to take any steps to get its house in order.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, PeterRS said:

So tying up 800,00/400,000 baht in an account which can never be used nor released till after death is reasonable? It is utter madness! This is especially true for those many expats who have actually invested many millions of baht in purchasing a home. If I have a home worth around 7 million baht, for what possible reason should I now be asked to deposit what is effectively a penalty of $26,000?

I tend to agree. 

Thailand is wise to make sure immigrants are solvent and can finance themselves, however requiring a sum to be tied up in a bank account & excluding other assets is irrational.

Mind you, I see this elsewhere.   I foolishly completed a UK credit card application shortly after finishing employment.  They ask about my salary, but there is nowhere on the form to prove I am solvent by declaring assets. So the card has a ridiculously low limit. 

[PeterRS]

19 minutes ago, z909 said:

Mind you, I see this elsewhere.   I foolishly completed a UK credit card application shortly after finishing employment.  They ask about my salary, but there is nowhere on the form to prove I am solvent by declaring assets. So the card has a ridiculously low limit. 

I had the same problem - and I thought it was only me. I did not have a regular salary as I was a company director dependent on how the company performed. I had over $200,000 in my account with that bank at that time. I was informed I would automatically receive a Platinum card. I did not want one - merely a regular card. No problem, I was told. A week later I was informed by letter that I had not completed details of my salary and could not receive the card until I had done so. After my phoning the bank and being told it was their error, I got yet another letter saying the same thing. I gavve up and transferred everything to a different bank!

[lotus123]

With regard to the TM30, I suspect that the drive to enforce it is actually aimed at the millions of citizens of the neighbouring countries who work in Thailand doing low-paid and low-skilled jobs. However, the government can't very well enforce the rules for just one expat group and not the others. I predict that the rigorous reporting requirement will eventually go away, but there's going to be an uncomfortable period before it does. 

[DivineMadman]

5 minutes ago, lotus123 said:

With regard to the TM30, I suspect that the drive to enforce it is actually aimed at the millions of citizens of the neighbouring countries who work in Thailand doing low-paid and low-skilled jobs. 

It certainly may be.  What's interesting is that each of the neighboring countries has a different "deal" for their people with Thailand - or put another way, it's all supposed to be the same rules but Cambodians generally get just two weeks, Laos longer, Myanmar another set of rules.  And of course Vietnamese get the hardest time.  So it makes me think that although they do get caught up in the general sweeps, etc., the CLM workers (and to a much lesser extent V) are handled in their own local/realpolitik way, so TM30 maybe not aimed at them.  Also, unlike many Western countries, there doesn't seem to be as much vitriol aimed against the low wage workers "stealing" local jobs here.  If anything, the powerful constituencies would seem to be in favor of them.  Bangkok construction would grind to a halt without them, etc.  [Thailand's unemployment rate is low, but I think that economics wonks will say that where so much of the population is in basic agriculture it's not really accurate to use it as a measure in the way it is used for more developed countries.]

So - and this is just my own personal view of course - I think the hysteria is not so much over the CLMV types as people from the other countries.  Not rich western countries.  But India, China, and heaven forbid someone comes from the dark continent.   I expect people saw just recently that the tourism department wanted to do away with visa requirements for India and China, but the foreign ministry/security folk stopped that.  

[PeterRS]

I can understand the reasoning behind the TM30 form. What I totally fail to understand is why the old rule was reinforced so strongly without the Immigration Department being ready for it! I read a letter by one Bangkok Post reader to say he had gone to Immigration to register his apartment, waited four hours and still could not get to a counter. So he had to return the next day. Total cost? Endless frustration and a waste of about 1,400 baht in taxi fares. Recent days have even seen a senior Immigration officer admit they still have procedures which need updating. Its just nuts!

I believe I wrote on another thread. When I return from an overseas trip, all the information required by Immigration is on my arrival form. Immigration has already had precisely the same information on their files for years ever since I started on the retirement visa route. But now after I arrive back at my condo, assuming I have registered - which I have not - I have to fill in a TM 30 and send it in, once again with exactly the same information on it! Why can I not just give the Immigration officer at the airport a TM 30 along with my arrival card? Or why not have a collection box at the airport?

It seems Immigration assumes that all expats live in rented accommodation and spend weeks travelling around the country or to neighbouring countries. They seem not to believe that anyone might actually own an apartment and always return to it. It is always the reduction to the lowest common denominator - in this case an assumption that farang can not be trusted no matter that they have obeyed all the rules for many years.

 

[spoon]

This is what happens when someone higher up told the whole nation what to do without thinking of the consequences. In my country, if this was done, there will be a grace period (trial run), surveys, task force setup to ensure when enforcement really happened, itll go smoothly. But this cost time and money and like all here agree, some logical thinking and reasoning, all of which is of little value to a military gov. They are used to give orders and have soldiers blindly follow orders.

[Boy69]

The last election was a joke the same Military Junta is in power and  the prime minister is also the head of the police and Military forces so basically you are correct the government just give orders and have soldiers blindly follow orders.

[floridarob]

I had thought of moving to Thailand but after considering some of the pitfalls being discussed, I'm in Mexico. It has MANY things in common with Thailand,  immigration was a one time thing, however, I'm free to work, own a business no requirement to keep money in their banks, no sort of reporting system. And I can be in Houston in less than a 2 hour flight if something happens that I want to be back in the USA.

I like Thailand, but like living in Mexico a whole lot more I believe.

[eurasian]

Just now, floridarob said:

I had thought of moving to Thailand but after considering some of the pitfalls being discussed, I'm in Mexico. It has MANY things in common with Thailand,  immigration was a one time thing, however, I'm free to work, own a business no requirement to keep money in their banks, no sort of reporting system. And I can be in Houston in less than a 2 hour flight if something happens that I want to be back in the USA.

I like Thailand, but like living in Mexico a whole lot more I believe.

Floridabob in which Mexican cities gay life is active ? If I am not wrong Puerto Vallarta is one them . What is the cost of living in Mexico compared to Thailand ? 

[floridarob]

Latin blood means gay life is everywhere, lol

I live in Merida, which is 3 hrs drive west of Cancun...it has more gay nightlife (and daylife) than PLaya del Carmen and Cancun combined.

Mexico city in incredible, I don't think I'd want to live there but is fun for a long weekend.

Puerto Vallarta isn't my cup of tea...too many people from the west coast.

Acapulco was THE PLACE in Mexico for many years, now it doesn't even enter my mind...WAY TOO DANGEROUS.

Guadalajara is supposed to be great but I had a few bad experiences there (plus I like short brown guys, they are mostly tall with European roots).

Monterey has a good scene, is very much like being in the USA since it's so far north, but is still Mexico. Is an industrial city with hard working people.

Cost of living is on par with Thailand I would say, alcohol is much cheaper.


There are escorts, stripper bars, tons of free sex....they relate more with western culture...so there are none of the cultural differences that we are always reminded not to offend in Thailand.

Different strokes for everyone...I like Thailand...to visit, I LOVE Thai food, massages everywhere, etc.....but is a big world.

Ah, I find the expats here less "catty" also, lol

[DivineMadman]

25 minutes ago, floridarob said:

I had thought of moving to Thailand but after considering some of the pitfalls being discussed, I'm in Mexico. It has MANY things in common with Thailand,  immigration was a one time thing, however, I'm free to work, own a business no requirement to keep money in their banks, no sort of reporting system. And I can be in Houston in less than a 2 hour flight if something happens that I want to be back in the USA.

I like Thailand, but like living in Mexico a whole lot more I believe.

And this is exactly the right way to think about/approach the problem.  

[lotus123]

6 hours ago, DivineMadman said:

It certainly may be.  What's interesting is that each of the neighboring countries has a different "deal" for their people with Thailand - or put another way, it's all supposed to be the same rules but Cambodians generally get just two weeks, Laos longer, Myanmar another set of rules.  And of course Vietnamese get the hardest time.  So it makes me think that although they do get caught up in the general sweeps, etc., the CLM workers (and to a much lesser extent V) are handled in their own local/realpolitik way, so TM30 maybe not aimed at them.  Also, unlike many Western countries, there doesn't seem to be as much vitriol aimed against the low wage workers "stealing" local jobs here.  If anything, the powerful constituencies would seem to be in favor of them.  Bangkok construction would grind to a halt without them, etc.  [Thailand's unemployment rate is low, but I think that economics wonks will say that where so much of the population is in basic agriculture it's not really accurate to use it as a measure in the way it is used for more developed countries.]

So - and this is just my own personal view of course - I think the hysteria is not so much over the CLMV types as people from the other countries.  Not rich western countries.  But India, China, and heaven forbid someone comes from the dark continent.   I expect people saw just recently that the tourism department wanted to do away with visa requirements for India and China, but the foreign ministry/security folk stopped that.  

You make some very good points here, @DivineMadman. My suspicion as explained in my comment above is based on another line of reasoning, namely that since the TM30 is about monitoring people's domestic movements, the current rigid enforcement may be aimed at controlling the mobility of migrant workers, who often live in onsite dorms. Their working conditions are often poor and their pay low, but the SMEs that employ them depend on the cheap labour, so they're keen to keep them close and under control. 

[Boy69]

controlling the mobility of foreigners is related to dicatatorship regimes and it's against my belief as liberal democrat western I certainly don't want to live in Thailand under the TM30 policy , however I don't mind to travel there from time to time I also love the Thai food, the boys, the sightseeings and their culture but retirement is better to stay in my country no culture difference,no redicilous immigration restrictions and reasonable healthcare system I certainly don't see my self as expat in Thailand struggling every year to get visa extension from the corrupted and Bureaucrat Thai immigration.my freind who is living in Cambodia told me about American expat living in Thailand that have to pay 20k Bht to corrupted immigration officer in Pattaya to approve the visa retirement renewal "to speed the process otherwise it can take forever ..." she told him !

[DivineMadman]

 I suppose in a quantum physics sense observing movement is "controlling" it, but not really.  People can travel within Thailand.  TM30 has been going on for decades without anyone crying "police state" - it was just being done by the hotels.  As I understand it, TM30 (or Section 38) is a Cold War era rule.  It may have lost its original justification, but nowadays global terrorism seems to get people to the same mindset.  (BTW - I'm NOT advocating the rules, and Im not saying that Thailand isn't a police state - I just try to find ways to understand how we get to where we are instead of just saying everything and everyone is irrational or a mustache-twirling corrupt villain.)

Worth noting that the sequence of events is that last year there are a LOT of domestic press reports about people (some of them non-Thai) running illegals hotels through AirBnB.  The hotels complained, the other condo residents complained, and then there were a lot of news reports.  After that Immigration BKK announced it would "work to rule" and get strict.  So maybe the AirBnB phenomenon is what pushed the powers that be into crazy defcon 5 mode. 

Yes, staying in one's home country avoids immigration hassles.  Even more power to you if you live a home country that allows people from anywhere to stay in your country for as long as they want without any immigration restrictions, procedures, red tape, corrupt or incompetent people, nationalist batshit crazy anti-immigrant haters, etc.  Would love to know that country.  Sounds ideal.  Canada?  

There absolutely are reports of corrupt immigration officers.  However, my guess is that most people by far are able to process their papers without any particular problems. Some people go through "brokers" - some are mere facilitators and some are hired to get around the rules, such as the brokers who helped people get around the rules.  But I think it is simply false to suggest that every expat has to pay a bribe to someone in the process.  

[martinsen]

9 hours ago, floridarob said:

I had thought of moving to Thailand but after considering some of the pitfalls being discussed, I'm in Mexico. It has MANY things in common with Thailand,  immigration was a one time thing, however, I'm free to work, own a business no requirement to keep money in their banks, no sort of reporting system. And I can be in Houston in less than a 2 hour flight if something happens that I want to be back in the USA.

I like Thailand, but like living in Mexico a whole lot more I believe.

If it were not for my boyfriend who has a great job here in Thailand I would be in Mexico.  You made a great decision.

[PeterRS]

3 hours ago, DivineMadman said:

There absolutely are reports of corrupt immigration officers.  However, my guess is that most people by far are able to process their papers without any particular problems. Some people go through "brokers" - some are mere facilitators and some are hired to get around the rules, such as the brokers who helped people get around the rules.  But I think it is simply false to suggest that every expat has to pay a bribe to someone in the process.  

Of course it is not the case that all expats have to pay someone to process the paperwork. I decide to use a law firm to help with all the documentation for the annual retirement renewal, if only because in my case there are around two dozen separate pieces of paper that have to be filled in and signed, most only in Thai. 

But as to the corrupt Immigration officer argument, my rule of thumb throughout my career is that when a problem arises I investigate to find out the root cause. I am not into quick fixes because the problem inevitably arises again. The primary reason for the new retirement rules and some having to tie up virtually $26,000 unused for life is exclusively due to corrupt Immigration officers. If they did not exist, there could be no crook agents. There could then be no crook expats. But Thai immigration seems perfectly happy to let these crooks in their Department continue to operate. Frankly, I reckon many of the crook agents have already worked a way around the 800,000/400,000 rule. Only the bribes will have to be a bit larger.

As for the TM30, why is it not possible for a collection drop box to be available at the airports for those who happen to travel outside Thailand either occasionally or regularly? Why has immigration relaunched it without any grace period and, much more importantly, without getting the bugs in their computer system fully ironed out so that it would work smoothly from Day 1? I have no porblem with rules - provided the implications of a rule have been thoroughly thought through and those enacting it accept that there is no one type of expat. There are different types of expat and there is no one rule that fits all. That is what has given so many the impression that most expats are crooks and need to be reigned in for the safety of the Kingdom. I do not like to be considered a crook by anyone!

[reader]

From the Bangkok Post

Bangkok was the world’s most-visited city in 2018 for the fourth consecutive year, ahead of Paris and London, according to a ranking compiled by Mastercard Inc.

Thailand’s capital hosted more than 22 million international overnight travellers, Mastercard’s latest Global Destination Cities Index shows. Paris and London followed in second and third with just over over 19 million each.

London was the only one of the top 10 cities in the ranking to see a fall in international overnight visitors, registering a decline of almost 4%. Tokyo is forecast to have the largest growth in arrivals this year, an increase of 10% to more than 14 million.

Thailand’s tourism industry on some measures accounts for about a fifth of the nation’s gross domestic product. A boom in the sector fizzled this year as the baht strengthened and the global economy slowed.

[spoon]

And kuala lumpur at #6 this year, passing new york at #7. Previously kuala lumpur was at #7. Interestingly, Turkey is the only country to have 2 cities in the top ten. 

[martinsen]

I enjoy many of Divine Madman's posts but on this topic he is full of crap. He should apply for a government job as PROMOTER OF THAILAND GOVERNMENT BULLSHIT. Visiting here and living here are very different.  When you are in a place for a very short time it is easy to overlook the problems that exist in that place but living here is different.  You must face those problems daily for an extended time.

Trying to over look the recent attacks on us by the Thai government is impossible.  It is obvious that they are doing many things to make it more uncomfortable for us to stay here for long periods of time.  The most recent has to do with health care:

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1121702-dual-pricing-retirees-and-expats-may-be-charged-more-at-thai-govt-hospitals/?utm_source=newsletter-20190905-0607&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news

Add up all of their recent moves relating to expats and it is not possible to avoid the fact that they do not want us here.

 

[DivineMadman]

It's good to have an opinion.

I am out of Thailand roughly four months a year.  During the roughly eight months a year I'm here in Thailand I'm not here on short-term visa exemptions or similar.  I have (rent) a condo.  I'm subject to the same 90-Day and TM30 crap.  I learn the language.  Make friends with locals and travel around.  Have fun.  It's seems to me like I'm living here.  

I think if anyone is ever looking for a theme in my posts, it's that I issue with the comments like: Thailand is stupid.  People in Thailand are stupid.  People in Thailand are lazy.  "Thai culture" is a problem (ahem, Martinsen). etc.  I do not that because I am a paid promoter - although if TOT is reading this, I am available - but because I think those sorts of statements are incorrect. 

I also think that if we make the effort to understand different cultures, how things got to where they are, conflicting political or economic concerns, etc., it's just better and life becomes easier.  

I personally do not feel that the Thai government is constantly attacking me, even though I am subject the same rules as everybody else.

I personally don't think dual pricing at Thai government hospitals is an attack.  

If I go to the UK I am not entitled to get the same free health care as Brits.  I don't think that's an attack.  Same same for Canada, etc.  

In a way this is a perfect example of the whole brouhaha.  Someone says it's an "attack" on foreigners.  But it's not.  How many countries offer government subsidized health care to people who are not citizens or permanent residents?  My guess is it's not a lot.  

So I read the news about the change in pricing at government hospitals, but, before crying foul, I thought, and thought some more, and did a little research, and came to the conclusion, ok, it's reasonable, I understand it.  Sabai Sabai.

There's really nothing I - or anyone else (with one possible exception) - can do if someone is stuck in a place he doesn't want to be because of his boyfriend's job.  But, I can certainly point out that maybe there is a contrary view to the negativity when that is posted here.  (The one exception of course is that very person.)  

I don't think endlessly dwelling on the negative is going to make anything better.  And in fact I think the people who study happiness for a living might say it only makes it worse.  So maybe we try to make the best of it.  Take the energy devoted to fixating on the negative and make the effort to find things to like, make friends, study, do, etc.  I'm still friends with people I met at school here when I was studying Thai.  Staying in touch with them makes it fun here.  I've taken cooking classes in the Klong Toey slums.   Interesting and so much fun.  And then there are the guys and massages.... It makes filing the 90-Day reports worthwhile.

I know for a fact that it is possible to make the best of a horrible, arguably disgusting, situation, because there are guys here who will have sex with me and they seem to be ok with it.  If they can put up with that, I can put up with anything.

Shalom.  I wish everyone happiness.

DM 

[faranglaw]

Very wise words, Divine Madman. I couldn’t agree more. One of the toughest life lessons is learning to see shades of grey. After you start seeing shades of grey, you realize that just about everything in life is shades of grey. 

I agree with you, DM. There is no conspiracy to make farang life in Thailand miserable. In fact, it just might possibly be true that, just maybe, it’s not actually about us. Strange idea, isn’t it, that other people exist, see things through the lens of their culture and experience, may not think the same as we do, may have other priorities besides our precious little selves. 

Oh, the humanity!