Question about 90 Day Reporting

[Leroy]

I just moved to Thailand. I have a rental apartment which  requires me to report my address every 90 days. I was told my landlord had to do this but they don't know the process. I am in Bangkok. How do I report my address on my own?  Can I do this online? Can I do this without the landlords signature every time I enter?

[DivineMadman]

90-Day reporting is your responsibility.  If you want to nerd-out, the form is TM-47.  You can report online.  It doesn't involve your landlord.  (But TM-30 usually involves the landlord, see below).  The 90-day clock restarts every time you re-enter the country.  You can report online, but the window to do so is 15 days before-but-not-less-than 7 days before the 90th day.    90-Day Reporting Online.   Now there is also a phone app for that called Immigration eServices for Foreigner or something like that.  In the Apple App store you can find it by searching for "Royal Thai Police."  (There is also an Android version.)  When I signed up for the app it took several days just to register, so take that into account.  The online reporting and apps are notoriously finicky.  I certainly wouldn't wait until the last day when you can report using these methods.  If for whatever reason you don't make the online reporting window, if you are in Bangkok you make the 90-Day report at Chaengwattana.  I think 90-day reporting might be one of the few situations where you can send someone to do it for you, but I don't know for certain.  You get a receipt (or you print out your receipt if you do it online) and it goes to the immigration officer along with your passport and departure card when you leave..  There are lots of reports of Immigration officers check to see if you have have complied at departure.  There is a fine.  

A different reporting is TM-30 reporting.  Bangkok didn't used to care about TM-30 reporting, although offices in some other districts did.  But all that has changed very recently and Bangkok is now enforcing TM-30 reporting.  To put it mildly, expats have gone bat-shit crazy over this.  But it is what it is.  Right now it has been coming up in situations where people have had to go to Immigration to "do" something - such as file for an annual extension of stay.  They are forced to get current with their TM-30 before anything else will be processed, and there are reports of an 800 baht fine or something like that.

The basic rule is that whenever a foreigner stays the night at a hotel or home,  a report is supposed to go to Immigration.  Hotels do this online and you don't even know about it.  The "change" is that Bangkok Immigration is now enforcing it strictly to everyone - not just hotels.  So, for example, when you go to stay in your rented apartment, a report is supposed to go in to Immigration.  It's easy if your landlord or condo juristic person (office) files the report.  The law, however, effectively makes the landlord and the tenant jointly responsible for making sure that the form is filed.  So if your landlord doesn't do it you can (and should).  You can complete the TM-30 form as "possessor", rather than as owner.   I believe that in the Thailand Apple and Google app stores an app is available, but it is not available (or not available yet) in Apple App stores outside Thailand.  You can also complete the form on-line.  TM-30 Online Reporting (Thai Language).  I believe that registration to use the on-line form requires uploading the lease and other specified info.  There are reports of people waiting for approval for many weeks.   You can also file the TM-30 by mail, just enclose a return stamped envelope for the receipt.  Or file in person.

Immigration, for whatever reason, seems to be in the midst of a "work to rules" phase, so this is all a bit new and some of the more bonkers fact patterns are still unclear, and practice differs from office to office.  For example, if I go visit Chiang Mai and stay in a hotel, the hotel will file a TM-30, but then when I go back to my apartment in Bangkok am I supposed to file (or tell the juristic person to file) a new TM-30 to update the info?  Some Immigration offices say yes, some say no, and we don't know what Bangkok Immigration thinks on this vitally important question that is more important than anything else in the world (to some people on Thai Visa).  

One of Big Oud's recent press conferences was to showcase Immigration making an example of two ladies fined ฿2,000 for failure to report foreigners.

The Thai Visa forum is the best resource for finding up-to-date info and read pages and pages of outrage about this (or that).  Basically, just look for answers by "UbonJoe" and ignore everyone else.  He knows his stuff. Most of the rest are just miserable and cranky complainers.  

If you are entitled to use the special Immigration Office in Silom (Chamchuri), things might be different for you.

Personally, I am not in the country on an annual renewal extension of stay, and I travel in the region enough that I've only had to file a 90-Day report twice, so I expect I'll just ignore TM-30 until I think it could come back to bite me.  But that's not advice.

 

[TotallyOz]

What is the difference between the 47 and the 30?

[DivineMadman]

7 minutes ago, Michael said:

What is the difference between the 47 and the 30?

TM-47 = "Form for Alien to Notify of Staying Longer than 90 days"  It operates in its own universe.  The clock re-starts every time you enter the country.  

TM-30 = "Notification Form for House Master, Owner or the Possessor of the Residence where Aliens have stayed."  On its face applies every time a foreigner stays somewhere.  Your hotels have been doing this all the time.  Now you need to make sure your landlord has got you current (or you have to do it), if you need to go to Bangkok Immigration to get them to do something for you (such as an extension of stay).

Immigration Forms can be downloaded:  Here

Put aside whether or not it is manifestly insane, whoever came up with the law for TM-30 probably thought it would create a system where the government would always know where a foreigner is staying.  Every time the foreigner relocates, his/her location would get updated.  (LOL)

I actually think there are a lot of countries with rules like this, they are just seldom enforced.  I remember when I was a lad for a longish visit in Italy I had to register with the police.

Non-compliance with TM-30 is one of the "hooks" government and condos are using to crack down on AirBnB.  

In Bangkok people who have faced this problem but have landlords that cant' be bothered bring a copy of their lease and submit the form as "possessor", pay their 800 baht fine and then can proceed to renew their extension of stay.

 

 

[martinsen]

On 7/9/2019 at 3:04 AM, DivineMadman said:

90-Day reporting is your responsibility.  If you want to nerd-out, the form is TM-47.  You can report online.  It doesn't involve your landlord.  (But TM-30 usually involves the landlord, see below).  The 90-day clock restarts every time you re-enter the country.  You can report online, but the window to do so is 15 days before-but-not-less-than 7 days before the 90th day.    90-Day Reporting Online.   Now there is also a phone app for that called Immigration eServices for Foreigner or something like that.  In the Apple App store you can find it by searching for "Royal Thai Police."  (There is also an Android version.)  When I signed up for the app it took several days just to register, so take that into account.  The online reporting and apps are notoriously finicky.  I certainly wouldn't wait until the last day when you can report using these methods.  If for whatever reason you don't make the online reporting window, if you are in Bangkok you make the 90-Day report at Chaengwattana.  I think 90-day reporting might be one of the few situations where you can send someone to do it for you, but I don't know for certain.  You get a receipt (or you print out your receipt if you do it online) and it goes to the immigration officer along with your passport and departure card when you leave..  There are lots of reports of Immigration officers check to see if you have have complied at departure.  There is a fine.  

A different reporting is TM-30 reporting.  Bangkok didn't used to care about TM-30 reporting, although offices in some other districts did.  But all that has changed very recently and Bangkok is now enforcing TM-30 reporting.  To put it mildly, expats have gone bat-shit crazy over this.  But it is what it is.  Right now it has been coming up in situations where people have had to go to Immigration to "do" something - such as file for an annual extension of stay.  They are forced to get current with their TM-30 before anything else will be processed, and there are reports of an 800 baht fine or something like that.

The basic rule is that whenever a foreigner stays the night at a hotel or home,  a report is supposed to go to Immigration.  Hotels do this online and you don't even know about it.  The "change" is that Bangkok Immigration is now enforcing it strictly to everyone - not just hotels.  So, for example, when you go to stay in your rented apartment, a report is supposed to go in to Immigration.  It's easy if your landlord or condo juristic person (office) files the report.  The law, however, effectively makes the landlord and the tenant jointly responsible for making sure that the form is filed.  So if your landlord doesn't do it you can (and should).  You can complete the TM-30 form as "possessor", rather than as owner.   I believe that in the Thailand Apple and Google app stores an app is available, but it is not available (or not available yet) in Apple App stores outside Thailand.  You can also complete the form on-line.  TM-30 Online Reporting (Thai Language).  I believe that registration to use the on-line form requires uploading the lease and other specified info.  There are reports of people waiting for approval for many weeks.   You can also file the TM-30 by mail, just enclose a return stamped envelope for the receipt.  Or file in person.

Immigration, for whatever reason, seems to be in the midst of a "work to rules" phase, so this is all a bit new and some of the more bonkers fact patterns are still unclear, and practice differs from office to office.  For example, if I go visit Chiang Mai and stay in a hotel, the hotel will file a TM-30, but then when I go back to my apartment in Bangkok am I supposed to file (or tell the juristic person to file) a new TM-30 to update the info?  Some Immigration offices say yes, some say no, and we don't know what Bangkok Immigration thinks on this vitally important question that is more important than anything else in the world (to some people on Thai Visa).  

One of Big Oud's recent press conferences was to showcase Immigration making an example of two ladies fined ฿2,000 for failure to report foreigners.

The Thai Visa forum is the best resource for finding up-to-date info and read pages and pages of outrage about this (or that).  Basically, just look for answers by "UbonJoe" and ignore everyone else.  He knows his stuff. Most of the rest are just miserable and cranky complainers.  

If you are entitled to use the special Immigration Office in Silom (Chamchuri), things might be different for you.

Personally, I am not in the country on an annual renewal extension of stay, and I travel in the region enough that I've only had to file a 90-Day report twice, so I expect I'll just ignore TM-30 until I think it could come back to bite me.  But that's not advice.

 

Well, a big THANK YOU for all of this vital information. It is greatly appreciated.  I really hope that the 90 day online report works for me.

[DivineMadman]

9 hours ago, martinsen said:

  I really hope that the 90 day online report works for me.

Good luck!

 

[anddy]

wow @DivineMadman considering these things don't concern you much as you say you have exquisitely intricate knowledge of the finer details of both TM47 and TM30 reportings!

As for TM30 being enforced and asked about when doing other things such as extensions, my experience doesn't confirm that. Given the hyper hype on Thaivisa about this I prodded my landlord to do it before I did my extension beginning of May. Landlord got the registration done and then gave me the online login details to do it myself. The registration process hadn't been completed by the time of my extension, but at least it had been kicked off, so that was something I could say if asked about it. 30-However, no-one asked, mentioned or even hinted at anything TM30-related (to my relief). The whole extension plus re-entry process was business as usual. Likewise, no-one even remotely alluded to the alleged new maintain-800k-Baht-after-extension rule, also published to much fanfare and hyperventilation on Thaivisa. 

I still fully intended to do the TM30 online for myself, but still havent' done it LOL. 

As for TM47 or 90-day reporting, I've only ever done that once, in person at Chaengwattana. Supposedly, the online one was only available after you had done one old fashioned paper one. That was about 4 years ago. Ever since, I've always happened to travel out of the country well before the 90 days. 

Here is a related side story of non-sensical Thai immigration rules: if you need a residence certificate (for getting a drivers licence, for example) you can only get that if you have completed a 90 day reporting prior to applying for the residence certificate (how long prior is not clear though, a couple of years back wasn't accepted, so seems to have to be current). That makes no sense whatsoever. I reside in Thailand regardless of how long I stay there consecutively. If I happen to abroad for a couple of days every couple of months, say, I am still a resident in the same way as if I didn't travel, or in the same way a Thai national OBVIOUSLY would be considered a Thai resident even if traveling that often (or more). This was a problem I once had, but - uhm -  there was a "creative solution" involving some extra "fee". Still cheaper than getting the obnoxiously expensive residence certificate from my embassy. 

[PeterRS]

I guess I must be completely naive! I have owned my own condo in Bangkok since before I first got the annual retirement visa a dozen or so years ago. Like anddy, I fly out of Thailand at least once every two months. Accordingly in all the years I have lived in Thailand I have never once had to do a 90 day report. Now this TM 30 nonsense. When I arrive back in Thailand, I fill out an Immigration form. This gives Immigration my full condo address, my email and my phone number. This quickly gets inserted into Immigration computers. On arrival, I immediately go to my home. The only reason I would leave home when in Thailand is go to another part of the country. I always stay in hotels which will then report my dates to Immigration and that information will go into my file. (The only exception is every second year when I stay with friends in their home for 3 or 4 days. In that case it is their obligation to make a report.) Immigration already has all my condo details from the annual visa extension exercise.

So Immigration has on its computer system precise details of everywhere I stay in Thailand. Yet now I am supposed to add to the bureaucracy and fill in a ridiculous TM 30 form every time I get back home from BKK over a dozen times a year - even though Immigration has all that detail. 

This whole nonsense is just part of the policy initiated last year to weed out those who cheat the system, the foreigners who live on less than 65K baht monthly, the crook agents and especially the crook immigration officers who hand out visas in return for dollops of bribes. Now it is seemingly to weed out those who rent properties. 

As a guest in this country, I understand completely the desire of the authorities to get rid of those who break the rules. What really pisses me off no end is that instead of developing a way to focus on the root cause of their problems - those crook Immigration officers - the new regulations are specifically designed to hit absolutely every non-Thai. The tens of thousands who have always played by the rules are all caught up in a new or tightened up bureaucratic net.

[anddy]

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

... When I arrive back in Thailand, I fill out an Immigration form. This gives Immigration my full condo address, my email and my phone number. This quickly gets inserted into Immigration computers.

it doesn't. Do you really think someone enters all those thousands upon thousands of hardly legible hand written addresses from the TM6 cards into a computer? Not happening. 

I know (or inferred) this because once when I did my annual extension, the system still showed my address from over 1 year prior, even though I had given them the new one on prior year's extension, so even that didn't end up in the system. Plus since that 1+ year I had traveled out and into the country many many times and duly put the new address into all the TM6's. Didn't make it into their system either.

 

Quote

Immigration already has all my condo details from the annual visa extension exercise.

yes, but that's YOUR thing, the TM30 is the landlords obligation (first and foremost). If you are your own landlord (i.e. own the place) I have no idea what the deal is, if TM30 even applies....

 

I agree in all those stupid rules making life unnecessarily difficult for the law abiding people like us.... 

[Boy69]

My suspicion is that the Thai autoraties is targeting to reduce the 

foreigners Leaving in Thailand on long terms basis and to increase the number of the short terms tourists coming to the country.

[Guest]

On 7/13/2019 at 4:11 AM, PeterRS said:

So Immigration has on its computer system precise details of everywhere I stay in Thailand. Yet now I am supposed to add to the bureaucracy and fill in a ridiculous TM 30 form every time I get back home from BKK over a dozen times a year - even though Immigration has all that detail.

Clearly some of the people in senior roles are a bit thick.    

You think they would make life easy for those who ARE living on a multiple of the Thai average GDP per capita & therefore bringing wealth in, whilst being more focussed on the genuine offenders.

 

[TotallyOz]

So, I tried the 90 day reporting via Online today for TM.47. It worked fine and I got the receipt for the approval. Firefox did not work. However, Chrome worked perfectly.  Be sure to hit Print on the last page as that is what gives you the receipt that you need that says approved and the date and code.

Great thread and I appreciate the information!

https://extranet.immigration.go.th/fn90online/online/tm47/TM47Action.do?cmd=acceptTerm

[anddy]

5 hours ago, Michael said:

So, I tried the 90 day reporting via Online today for TM.47. It worked fine and I got the receipt for the approval. Firefox did not work. However, Chrome worked perfectly.  Be sure to hit Print on the last page as that is what gives you the receipt that you need that says approved and the date and code.

Great thread and I appreciate the information!

https://extranet.immigration.go.th/fn90online/online/tm47/TM47Action.do?cmd=acceptTerm

That's great that it worked well. I have looked at it, too, in case I need to do it (only needed to do it once since I moved here, coz usually always traveling abroad beofre the 90 days lapse) and saw one detail in the form where I don't know what to put:

On the second page they ask about Visa information. I don't know what to put there really, as technically I don't have a visa any more. I have an extension of stay. Is that it? Or would it be the associated Re-entry Permit, which is a bit more like a visa as this is what allows be to (re-) enter the country, like a visa does.

What do you have and what did you put there, @Michael ?

P.S.

The link you provided doesn't work. This one should:
https://extranet.immigration.go.th/fn90online

 

[TotallyOz]

This may be a question for someone else. What is your original Visa? It should be stamped in your passport with the original issue date.

[Bob]

31 minutes ago, Michael said:

This may be a question for someone else. What is your original Visa? It should be stamped in your passport with the original issue date.

I too have never been able to get the online deal to work and would like the answer to that question.  Does one insert the issue date of one's last extension or the issue date of the very first Non-O that one received?  If somebody knows for sure, please advise (if you're guessing, please stifle yourself).  My latest extension was issued in April of 2019 whereas my Non-O was issued in February of 2009.

For those who have had new passports since the original Non-O was issued, the issue date of your first Non-O will be listed near the beginning of your newest passport within what we typically call the "transfer" stamps.

I have to do my 90-day report next week and, if I figure out how to do the online deal (or app deal), I'll try that; otherwise, off in the mail it goes as usual.

[DivineMadman]

ThaiVisa is often a source of useful info -- if you can cut through the din of the complainers.

Here's a recent topic that might have answers - or where you can post to ask a question.  (I recall there is another thread about online reporting as well.)

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1155936-how-to-do-90-day-reporting-online-and-by-post/

My usual guidance on ThaiVisa is to follow what UbonJoe says.  He knows his s**t.

 

[anddy]

Thanks @DivineMadman, I will have a look in that thread, though I don't particularly like ThaiVisa, precisely for the reason you mentioned, all the complainers, as well as bullshitters....

Was hoping to get the answer from Michael since he just successfully did it. But seems he is on an actual visa rather than an extension. Will see what I find in the thread/

Otherwise my idea was to maybe go to the immigration office at Chamchuri as it's nearby and just ask there (though not banking on a definite and reliable answer there LOL)

[anddy]

here is some follow up report on my online 90 day reporting luck:

1. when asking about online 90 day reporting at Immigration Chaengwattana I was told "yes can do online, but furst oine have to do in person". Hmm kinda expected but wouldn't hurt to try anyway.

2. So I tried, and my original question posted above about the visa dates proved to be obsolete. When clicking "Non-IMM" for Type of Visa, the visa issue/exp date fields disappear and instead I only had to give the "permitted to stay" date, so very easy.

3. Filling out the form went completely smoothly and in the end I could successfully submit it. It was then shown as "pending", as it should be. This was Saturday.

4. Today, Tuesday morning at 9am already got the email that the "Notification 90 days" had been approved. The status in the system thus also showed "approved" and I could download the pdf-receipt (complete with reference number and bar code) in case I ever need that.

Bottom line: very very easy, smooth and quick. What a pleasant surprise  

A couple of other bureaucratic hurdles thrown my way in the visa extension process were also surprises, though unpleasant ones, but not exceeding mild inconveniences and another completely pointless and wasteful extra expenditure of 6000 baht for an equally pointless, non-sensical (reason: coz I had a Non-OA YEARS ago, had I had a Non_O no such requirement, even though the annual extension based on retirement is EXACTLY the same, what does have the visa history have to do with anything NOW? TiT) and unnecessary health insurance (I already have unlimited overage from my home country, so a total waste). Luckily, I found this insurance company that, obviously knowing of this uselessness given home coverage, offers a plans with either 100k or 200k deductible, making them rather cheap at 6k with the 200k deductible. All other companies were in the range of 35k to over 50k!!! And that for a paltry 400k inpatient / 100k outpatient coverage. 

Interesting side note: when complaining (very politely and always smiling through the face mask) to the senior Immi officer about this not making sense, she said don't worry, next year simply go out of the country, get a Non-O visa from a Thai embassy and then do your annual retirement extensions as per usual but with no insurance requirement. TiT!

Second hudle: got the insurance rather quickly and was back at Immi 2 or 3 days later to get the extension. Oh, she said, the insurance only starts on 7.May (which was about 2 weeks from that day), so I cannot issue the extension today. Have to come back on 7, or after (wouldn't be an overstay due to Covid amnesty). When coming after, the extension will only be for that same day in 2021, the validity of the insurance. I had picked that date because it was the expiration of my current extension. Makes sense right? But why she couldn't issue an extension, which would be issued late April, yes, but only be effective from May 7 until May 7 2021 (like every year so far, issued a week or two before May 7th, but always effective from May 7 to may 7) totally eludes me.... TiT