Sansuk Sauna - GB's Visit and Observations

[Guest Kregger]

I don't think the thread should be closed, though I do think repetition back and forth on the same issues has become tiresome to everyone, including me.

 

It might be worthwhile to keep it open, especially if it turns out that the owner of tha sauna does indeed wish to comment. If he does, I for one promise to be polite and respectful in any response.

 

Trolling is in the eyes of the beholder, but being called a professional is certainly a nice compliment. Where do I get paid?

[Guest pete1969]

This double pricing exists all over Thailand, and it exists for a reason. As a farang visitor, it is assumed you have the means to pay a higher price than do the much poorer Thai counterparts. Thais are giving a break to citizens of their country. It has nothing to do with race, but citizenship of a particular place (in this case, Thailand).

 

The saunas in Phuket have the exact same double pricing policy. Why? Because most of their Thai customers can't afford the same price that farang are able to pay. This includes Thais of all ages. Granted, a few older Thais might have the means to pay farang prices, but how can the owners know? Is it really fair to tell a poor 35 yo Thai worker that he can't come to the sauna for relaxation, but a poor 25 yo Thai worker can? I met a number of Thais in their thirties and forties at the Phuket saunas who were waiters and shopkeepers and the like. They came because the sauna was affordable for them (I think 60 bt as opposed to 400 bt the farangs paid).

 

The owner of the Pattaya sauna could probably care less about the opinion of a handful of farang on an International message board. He cares about creating the best value for both his Thai customers and his farang customers. The price points for value differ greatly for the two groups. IMO, that makes him a smart business man. For those handful of farang who don't come to his sauna because of the double pricing policy, he probably will gain a large amount of new Thai customers who are able to afford to come to his sauna because of the affordable prices for them. I guess it never occurred to some that the owners policy was probably as much about getting younger Thais to the sauna as it was to make the sauna affordable for ALL Thais regardless of age.

 

The fact that a poster can cry racism on one hand but on the other say it okay to allow a price break for Thais based solely on the perception of what he wants in a sex partner is exceptionally crass to me. So, if you wanna f*** them, it is okay for them to get a price break? But after they reach the old age of 25 when you are not sexually interested in them, then suddenly you are sorely offended that they don't have to pay the same price as you?

 

Yeah, I think I'll support the owner of the sauna on this one.

 

Pete

[Guest Kregger]

Such owners have concern for poorer people ONLY who are Thai. Because he is Thai????

 

No concern at all for poorer people who are NOT Thai. Yes, this is racism. You may support it, condone it, rationalize it till the cows come home, but it is still racism.

 

As far as the almost universal gay male desire to see a bunch of young male cuties at a GAY sauna, I won't even go there, because this is such a popular business goal already of most sauna owners and most sauna customers.

 

 

Some might enjoy this other forum post about racism in Thailand. It does exist, folks:

 

http://www.thailandqa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1344

 

 

I love Thailand but sometimes I get the impression that Thai people consider themselves superior to people from other countries. I find that offensive. I

[Guest pete1969]

LOL. I don't know of many truly poor Americans who are trolling the saunas of Thailand.

 

Frankly, it is inverse racism to insist that a people behave as you do in your country. TIT. You deem it is okay for them to be ageist (and strident in your insistence that the owner of this sauna be ageist). Thais would much rather give an economic break to all Thais rather than to ones of a certain age. It is a fairly ingrained part of who they are as a people and of the values they hold.

 

So, IMO, you are the one being racist and even perverse in your desire for the owner to give price breaks only to the Thais you want to f***.

 

You may support your own racist and ageist views, condone them, rationalize them until the cows come home, but you are still being racist and ageist. Face it.

 

Pete

 

(BTW, if you consider this a personal attack, it is no less than the many attacks you have made upon the Thai people and the owner of this Thai sauna. Your moralizing to an entire nation and insistence they accpept your view, and your promotion of ageism over an equitable discount policy for all Thais offends me as greatly as the policy of the sauna owner offends you.)

[Guest Kregger]

Well, Pete, there is the one big flaw on your rant.

The owner is ALSO being ageist, in allowing the very young Thais to get in FREE.

So, nice try, no cigar.

 

OK. If it pleases you, if you think being for no discrimination based on race regardless of the nation is racist, then, yes, I am a racist. Satisfied?

 

By your absurd logic if the Thais were murdering each other en masse in the streets but it was part of the precious "culture", to oppose that would be racist.

 

Murder is a universal wrong. So is racism. Some things transcend cultures and religions.

 

BTW, poorer non-Thais in Thailand and Pattaya do indeed exist.

[Guest buaseng]

Oh Pleeeaaasssee. If ever a thread deserved to be closed THIS IS IT!!

I agree. Kregger is obviously someone who has the need to have the last word on any subject to the extent that on this one he keeps re-hashing the same arguments in different words and phrases each time he posts.

 

His calls for the Sauna owner to come to the board to state his policy are not only insulting to the owner but are pathetic and laughable.

 

We are all now well aware of his oft-stated opinion and aversion to what he sees and calls racism. It is time to move on and allow the poor fellow to contemplate his navel in peace.

[Gaybutton]

Oh Pleeeaaasssee. If ever a thread deserved to be closed THIS IS IT!!

 

You have all had your chains pulled again and again by a professional troll.

 

I'm sorry, but I disagree. While Kregger does seem bent on continuing this issue, I don't see him as a troll. He has a position and he wishes to discuss it. Others wish to respond. A large number of people have obviously become interested in this particular debate. As long as discussions continue intelligently, I see no reason to cut it off in mid stream. It will eventually fizzle out on its own. In the meantime, those who have become bored with this thread are under no obligation to continue reading it. 2000 legitimate hits on this thread tells me that a large number of people are still interested in what is being said . . . on both sides.

[Guest buaseng]

I'm sorry, but I disagree. While Kregger does seem bent on continuing this issue, I don't see him as a troll...... As long as discussions continue intelligently, I see no reason to cut it off in mid stream. ..... 2000 legitimate hits on this thread tells me that a large number of people are still interested in what is being said . . . on both sides.

 

Some of us would disagree and DO see him as a troll.

 

I would agree if the discussion remained intelligent but it has not and has become one long repetition of Kregger's position (constantly re-hashed).

 

As for the number of hits - lets not get on to that contentious subject - it proves absolutely nothing as the hit count can be engineered. Why do you say the 2000 count is 'legitimate'. I read here or elsewhere that the moderators admitted that they have no control over the count or way of knowing how it is achieved.

 

After saying all that, I recognise your right to make the decision as a Moderator and therefore abide with it.

[Gaybutton]

Some of us would disagree and DO see him as a troll.

 

I'm not going to go off on this sort of tangent or get into an argument as to why I think the hits are legitimate. If you see him as a troll or a hit faker, then I suggest that you stop reading this thread. You're right . . . I'm a moderator here and I do not see him as a troll and I do not think he is jacking up the hit count. Unless I do and unless I see him intentionally violating posting guidelines, then the thread stays open for those who wish to read and/or participate on it.

 

Now, and I mean it, this thread is a discussion of the Sansuk sauna. I am going to delete any further posts that accuse Kregger of being a troll, tell me to close the thread, or anything else that has nothing to do with Sansuk sauna or the debate about pricing policies. If you have a complaint about the thread or about Kregger, send me a PM.

[Guest Kregger]

My only further comment is that if there was any chance that the owner of the sauna might have come on board to openly discuss this issue, some of you (including GB) have given him an all too convenient excuse not to do so. I frankly do not understand why people on both sides of this sauna double pricing as Thai racism issue do not want a direct public dialogue with a person who is actually implementing such a policy. We all might have learned something. Perhaps he has totally different motivations than anyone here has guessed.

 

It would have been interesting, but some people just aren't intellectually curious about anything past their next off ...

 

Oh, another comment. The crowd that fails to see racism when it is stuffed down their throats have come up with many, many variations of excuses and rationales for this racism. So, though my arguments do sound very repetitive, if you actually examine the content, many slightly different fine points are addressed in response to the specific "double pricing isn't Thai racism" arguments.

[Guest kenrfc]

Kregger is using the same spurious arguments the Right-wing in America have been using for years to discredit and destroy policies like Affirmitive Action and minority set-asides in government contracting.

The argument goes something like this:

 

1) "Racism" is defined as any thought process, decision or policy that uses "race" as a determinant.

2) All "Racism" is bad and evil.

3) Since Affirmitive Action, minority set-asides and Double pricing in a sauna use "Race" as a determinant they are (by #1) "Racist" policies and therefore they are Bad and Evil.

 

If you want a good example of Bad Nasty Racism in Thailand used against Farangs I'll give you one. Next time you go to Cutey-Beauty in Bangkok to get your haircut take a look at the go-go venues in Soi Thanya. You'll notice they all have Japanese signs. That's because they cater to Japanese clientele. Now just try walking into one of these venues some night. Unless you are Japanese you will not be allowed in and the reason is the Japanese clientele do not want any stinking white westerners "polluting" their girls.

Now thats "Bad Racism". Its akin to Kreggers example of a restraunt charging Indians and Arabs more than anyone else. These are bad policies because they are used to EXCLUDE people based on Race.

 

Punya's policy is in the same vein as Affirmative action and minority set-asides. It is very different from the above examples in that it aims to INCLUDE people. In this case it is an attempt to bring in a clientele that would normally not use their much smaller disposable income at such a venue.

 

Of course if this policy results in caravans of Old Thai Queens in their Mercedes blocking Thepprasit road and crowding out poor paying Farangs as Kregger seems to fear, I'm sure Punya, being an astute businessman would quickly change it.

 

 

 

 

[Guest Kregger]

Ken, that was a very interesting argument. Congratulations, you challenged me on that one (first time on this thread).

 

It is questionable that we can compare US and Thailand on a one on one basis, but you present some interesting twists.

 

Regarding affirmative action in the US, I am American and have never opposed affirmative action for granting of contracts. They do serve a purpose in pushing towards prosperty a segment of the US population that has a high percentage in the underclass and in prison. I don't consider this kind of government program at all racist, and I am not a right winger by any stretch of the imagination. The sad reality is that American blacks have still not fully recovered from the slavery period.

 

To amplify this, I am not color blind. I am aware of race. I believe most all human beings are aware of race and the people who say they aren't are liars. Racism is so pervasive in societies throughout the world, that it takes real effort to fight it. So, in cases of affirmative action, where a social policy can advance healing of an internal wrong, positive discrimination based on race has its merits.

 

How exactly is this similar to a sauna entrance policy? Really, not very much at all. Affirmative action contracts mandate that a certain PERCENTAGE of contracts be granted to minority groups, not ALL of the contracts! So your sauna analogy falls flat. The sauna is in effect granting ALL contracts to the Thais (which by the way in Thailand are the totally hegemous MAJORITY, and not a minority in any way) and grants ZERO contracts to the non-Thai minority. So, sorry, again, nice try, it doesn't add up.

 

Also, if you insist on comparing Thailand to America, if an American business was run by a minority person or a mighty whitey gave preferential prices to a specific race or nationality, the police would be at their door promptly, and/or there would be protests and riots.

 

You also fall into the racist and 100 percent false stereotype that presumes that all Thais are underpriveleged and all non-Thais including tourist and resident farangs are overpriveleged.

 

I fully agree the types of exclusionary racism you cite are a racism of a more severe degree than race based double pricing. If you read this thread, you will find that I acknowledge this is a milder form of racism, but racism nonetheless. There are certainly many degrees of racism much more severe, such as lynchings, murders, and genocide.

[Guest Aunty]

 

Kregger, you're full of it. I don't see anything that establishes you as an authority on racism. You are only stating your opinion of what racism is (and your arguments are quite irrational by the way), furthermore your opinion has been soundly defeated time and time again on this board. But of course you arrogantly refuse to accept that. Even your own hypocrisy, when it is pointed out to you, is arrogantly dismissed. All of this leads me to believe that not only are you stubborn but quite frankly when it comes to this matter, not very bright.

 

Clenching your fists, holding your breath and stomping your feet and saying it is, it is, it is, it is racism, does not make it so.

 

[Smiles]

" .... Ken, that was a very interesting argument. Congratulations, you challenged me on that one (first time on this thread) .... "

You go Aunty! I laughed my ass off at the above comic pomposity but have ~ sort of ~ promised GsyButton to be 'nice' (and bland). So ... I sit here in the coldest winter I can remember, waiting for Kreggle to make just another silliness.

Almost better than playing the horses at The Kal, but it's a half mile away in weather hovering at around 15 below. To be honest I'd rather be dodging car bombers in Siam Square.

 

Cheers ...

 

PS ... regarding Kreggle being a troll, I agree with GayButton ( ). He ain't. A Luddite maybe, but troll, never.

[Guest Kregger]

All Auntie did was personally attack me. What he did not do is present any argument that shows that pricing policies based on race/nationality are not a form of racism. And it is me who is dumb? Auntie, if my arguments are irrational, how about some night when you aren't buzzed on 100 Pipers that you present your rational argument about their flaws.

 

Smiles, do you even know the definition of Luddite? Because last time I checked race based disrcimination on price is not related in any remote way to technological progress.

[Gaybutton]

All Auntie did was personally attack me.

 

You saw that post before I did. I don't sit in front of my computer screen 24/7, so sometimes I don't catch these things before they've been online for a while.

 

I agree that the post did seem much more like a personal attack than a discussion of the issue. Considering that I have already stated personal attacks are not going to be permitted, I have removed that post.

 

Aunty . . . please feel free to re-post, if you wish, but you're going to have to leave the personal attacks out of it.

[Guest Aunty]

If you consider my post, Gaybutton, which was a legitimate criticism of kregger's posture a 'personal attack' then I feel sorry for you and I seriously question your ability to judge such matters.

 

I will not be reposting my comment above, I wouldn't waste my breath, and given the excessively restricted direction the moderation of this board appears to be taking now lthat it is argely your hand on the steering wheel, I very much doubt whether I will post here much in the future.

 

I am intolerant of unreasonable censorship.

 

[Guest mauRICE]

Now, as to Maurice's somewhat efete view of wealthy Thais, my experience is quite different from his. Pattaya may be a brothel by the bay to his jaundiced eye, but judging from the rapid purchase of condos by wealthy Thais, his is not a universal view. I have had many Thai friends come to Pattaya for reasons other than the gogo bars and delights of the flesh.

 

"efete?"

 

What exactly is my jaundiced view of wealthy Thais? Did I say wealthy Thais didn't go to Pattaya? Did I say they go to Pattaya only for "gogo bars and delights of the flesh?"

 

Buying condos in Pattaya, particularly in Naklua, is not a recent phenomenon. It's called investing, in anticipation of Pattaya's big clean up (huh!). The short-term rental income can be quite good. Chiang Mai went through the same boom in the 80's and early 90's. Currently there's a glut of condos and apartments in Chiang Mai, with many buildings in a state of disrepair and abandoned for lack of sinking funds to maintain them.

 

So, what effect would wealthy Thais investing in Pattaya and going there for non-carnal pursuits, as you said, have on a small sex sauna off the beaten path that's going to be the focus of mostly farang retirees and 'boy special' types? None. If anything, your contention serves to support my point that this new sauna will bear little interest to wealthy Thais.

 

Now, who in their right minds would call Pattaya a "brothel by the bay?" The mere mention of Pattaya conjures up images of swaying palms, pristine waters and smiling faces, with Thais, Russians, Arabs and pulchritudinous young farang living side by side in multiracial harmony. Great literature (the Pattaya Mail), fine art (tattoo artists), excellent cuisine (Niddy's Nook), topped off by a vibrant performing arts scene (Tiffany's and Boyz Boyz Boys). Hell, it's Renaissance Florence on the Eastern Seaboard.

 

NOooo, Pattaya is by no stretch of the imagination a "brothel by the bay." If it were, I doubt an esteemed group of effete Pattaya 'intellectuals' who call themselves Touchy Topics would meet once a week in a building called Shagwell Mansions to discuss topics of the utmost importance. I'm sure there are many Thai hi-so types among its members. You wouldn't have heard of it, would you, Bpaa Rich?

[Gaybutton]

If you consider my post, Gaybutton, which was a legitimate criticism of kregger's posture a 'personal attack' then I feel sorry for you and I seriously question your ability to judge such matters.

 

Sorry you feel that way. Your post is still visible to Stef, Rainwalker, and GayThailand. If any of them agree that your post is not a personal attack, then any one of them is at full liberty to restore it without argument or resentment from me.

 

I make no claims to be perfect in my judgments and being human I'm not going to get it right all the time, but I do see your post as a personal attack and I meant what I said . . . if a personal attack is posted, it's going bye-bye no matter who posts it.

 

I doubt this will be much consolation, but I actually agree with what you said. It's the manner in which you said it that I considered to be a personal attack.

 

Again, I have no problem at all if any of the moderators decide to restore your post if they disagree with my opinion of it.

[Guest Kregger]

I don't get that anybody would consider Brothel by the Bay as a glamorous moniker!

 

Pattaya does indeed have perhaps the highest percentage of resident whores in the world. And it is on a bay. So Brothel by the Bay sounds about right.

 

It doesn't imply at all that it is a seat of culture and refinement. It implies the truth, a city with lots of whores situated on a bay.

 

Now there are cities in the world with overblown monikers, such as Boston "The Athens of America" and San Francisco, simply THE CITY, but Brothel by the Bay isn't one of them.

[Guest RichLB]

]Of course I've heard of the Tocghy Topics group, Maurice. In fact I participated in it for several months. I recommend attending for spirited discussions not usually addressed in most social circles. However, I have a problem understanding what this group's existence has to do with reinforcing your view of Pattaya. I have even more trouble seeing how it relates to the issue of the pricing policies at Sanuk Sauna.

 

My personal point of view is that Pattaya is a small divers city with attractions for a myriad of people. Those who wish to indulge in lo-so venues will find plenty of them here. Those who wish to visit postcard locales will also find them here. And for those who wish to find social and cultural experiences, they are also here. It's sad when one is so blinded by the glitz of Pattayaland and their self perception of being "above it all" they can discover nothing else. However, luckily, Thailand has tons of other destinations where they may find what they are looking for.

 

Me, I'm sort of a lo-so guy, myself. Although i haven't visited it yet, I am delighted Sanuk Sauna has opened and trust it will meet the needs of a comfortable customer base. Those who like it will return and those who don't, won't. No need to trash it or the city in which it reside.

[Guest Kregger]

I also agree there is no need to trash Pattaya or trash the new sauna. The new sauna is a welcome addition to the Pattaya scene and as I have said before, the owner's initiative and personal business risk in something that hasn't been tried before in Pattaya, is highly appreciated.

 

I am only question the ethics of race/nationality based pricing policies.