Guest Kregger Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 Lets see a clear posting of the actual policies on this board, OK? That is the challenge to the owner of the new sauna, and then all will be clear for the public to see. Frankly, a private phone call would mean nothing. If there were racist policies still in order, they would just be enforced silently at the sauna. What is needed to resolve any confusion about this is a public posting by the owner of the sauna and also a clear sign or printed statement available for all people, Thai, and non-Thai, to see in Thai and English (saying the same thing) at the sauna entrance. Surely a wealthy Thai man who has lived in America for several years is capable of understanding how much this would be appreciated by farangs residents and tourists alike. If the owner thinks his racially based pricing policies are defensible, he should publicly post them, perhaps on the sauna website. Frankly, I don't think he will, because like I said before, Thai people know this kind of race based pricing is morally wrong, so they like to keep it low profile. I would be glad to be pleasantly surprised. Mountain out of molehill, perhaps, but this is a principle thing, and where it is possible for us to resist racism, we should. You would think a gay sauna in a heavily farang city owned by a Thai who has lived in America for several years, would be a case where there is hope that racism to not be practised. Quote
Gaybutton Posted January 13, 2007 Author Posted January 13, 2007 Frankly, a private phone call would mean nothing. If there were racist policies still in order, they would just be enforced silently at the sauna. Sheeeeesh! What do we need to do, take a Polaroid picture of a non-Thai under age 25 entering free? If it makes you feel any better, only a couple days ago the Thai boyfriend of a very well known "farang" here decided to try a fairly new go-go bar, just off of Sunee Plaza. He was denied entrance. Do you know why? Because he is Thai. He was told they want only "farang" customers. Quote
Guest Kregger Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 Sheeeeesh! What do we need to do, take a Polaroid picture of a non-Thai under age 25 entering free? If it makes you feel any better, only a couple days ago the Thai boyfriend of a very well known "farang" here decided to try a fairly new go-go bar, just off of Sunee Plaza. He was denied entrance. Do you know why? Because he is Thai. He was told they want only "farang" customers. So two wrongs make a right to you? Maybe you have been living in Thailand too long. Quote
Gaybutton Posted January 13, 2007 Author Posted January 13, 2007 So two wrongs make a right to you? Maybe you have been living in Thailand too long. Did I say two wrongs make a right? Did I say anything to indicate that the policy at that bar is right? I don't mind participating in your argument, but I see no reason for you to put words in my mouth or decide what I'm thinking. Quote
Guest Kregger Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 Did I say two wrongs make a right? Did I say anything to indicate that the policy at that bar is right? I don't mind participating in your argument, but I see no reason for you to put words in my mouth or decide what I'm thinking. Fair enough. Quote
Guest Aunty Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 Well it's clear that the pricing policy of this sauna is based on ethnicity, so in that sense it is 'racist', but the admission policy itself is not. Any and all are welcome. With that being the case, coupled to the fact that differential pricing for Farang is a common although unreasonable practice across Thailand, I think it overstates the case to call this a racist establishment. Racism is typically carried out to give or withhold goods and services based solely on the ethnicity of the person. That is not the case here. No-one is being excluded from the sauna on the basis of their 'race', which would be the true test for racism. The reality is that if the owner did not have free admission for under 25 year old Thais, they wouldn't go, and he would soon be out of business. No one of any ethnicity (well precious few) have the slightest desire to go to a Thai sauna that is full of saggy old wrinkley Quote
Guest Kregger Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 Aunty, I am an older guy. An age discount would not benefit me. I don't want any discount. I want a fair policy, good for the sauna business, that is not racist. This isn't about benefitting me. If you had read the thread, I said that before. So no it is not a bit rich, because it is not true. Age discounts for a gay sauna are not bad! They offer a discount to younger men who often but not always can use the discount, but more importantly they offer them an incentive to come, which is of course a draw to older gay men to see them there. Everyone wins that way. They are not equivalent, the age or race based discounts. There are different definitions of racism. I truly believe offering preference to one race over another in a pricing policy is indeed a form of racism. There are worse manifestations of racism, but why should we tolerate or even support even this milder form of racism, when it is totally uneccesary to meet the business goals of the sauna? Actually, I am a bit amazed that more of you do not recognize racism when it is staring at you in the face. And not only tolerate but openly support it. Frankly, I find that disgusting. Lets imagine another kind of business, a restaurant. A Thai walks in and gets a menu where fried rice is 30 baht. A farang walks in and gets a menu where fried rice is 60 baht. An Arab walks in and gets a menu where fried rice is 90 baht. What is that then? A garden party? No, my darlings, this is racism. Quote
Guest Aunty Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 Age discounts for a gay sauna are not bad! They offer a discount to younger men who often but not always can use the discount, but more importantly they offer them an incentive to come, which is of course a draw to older gay men to see them there. Everyone wins that way. They are not equivalent, the age or race based discounts. Trying telling that to an older Farang (or indeed anyone affected by age-based pricing) who is poor! Discrimination on the grounds of age, or race, are moral equivalents. I don Quote
Guest Kregger Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 Well, I think they are different. However, if you don't believe me, check the thousands of posts complaining about double pricing based on race at thaivisa. I challenge you to find one person who complains that their child got a discount on entry to a carnival ride because that is ageism. You will not find one. There are such things as universal truths in this world that even cross very different cultures. Quote
Guest buaseng Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 The bottom line here is that if he thinks the policy is racist, Kregger should take this up directly with the owner/management of the sauna or alternatively refuse to frequent the establishment, instead of flying a kite on this board. The poll he has instituted is so far 3 to 1 that the policy is NOT racist - if he doesn't agree with the poll results why start it in the first place? I would have thought that anything which draws younger Thais to the sauna is a good thing. Personally I found saunas rather seedy and sordid and I stopped frequenting them about twenty odd years ago. However, I imagine that the majority of farangs who frequent saunas in Thailand do so to pick up younger Thais with the hope that they can get some 'action' without having to pay for it. Kregger writes:- Lets imagine another kind of business, a restaurant. "A Thai walks in and gets a menu where fried rice is 30 baht. A farang walks in and gets a menu where fried rice is 60 baht. An Arab walks in and gets a menu where fried rice is 90 baht. What is that then? A garden party? No, my darlings, this is racism". Racism and discrimination can be found in various forms in all societies and walks of life. The most useful answer to it is to avoid or actively boycott any place which you personally feel is racist or is discriminating against you. If enough of the anti-racists like Kregger vote with their feet, such establishments will soon get the message and will be forced to change or lose clientelle. Quote
Guest Kregger Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 I disagree with you. I don't care what the poll results are; clearly a good portion of people do agree with me that the pricing policy is racist. Why would any good business owner want to offend such a sizable percentage of their public, even if not the majority. The majority is often wrong anyway. I agree more younger Thais is good, so are more younger everything. Do you seriously believe that even most of the gay farangs in Thailand are total rice queens? Because, they are not. Most are interested in guys of different races. Of course, in Thailand, it is mostly Thai food on the menu. I also do not wish to boycott the sauna or suggest others do so. I think the owner should adjust his pricing policy so that it gives price incentives to younger men of ALL races, and drops off the nasty racist pricing policies. There is only ONE sauna in Pattaya. If people boycott it and they love saunas, they are hurting themselves. I want to appeal to the ethics of the owner of this sauna, who I assume, most like Thais, knows that double pricing based on race is immoral. Quote
Guest buaseng Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 I disagree with you. I don't care what the poll results are; clearly a good portion of people do agree with me that the pricing policy is racist. I fail to see how you arrive at that startling and unsupported statement. "Do you think a sauna that has a free or lower price for ALL Thais, young AND old, rich AND poor, is RACIST? Yes [ 3 ] [23.08%] No [ 10 ] [76.92%] Total Votes: 13 " You presumably don't agree with the poll results because they do not fit in with your thesis. That does not make them any less relevant or more worthy of dismissal. Quote
Guest Kregger Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 Again, why would a business person want to offend even 20 percent of his public if he didn't have to? In other words, this sauna can achieve the same goal (incentives for younger men) without offending anybody. In my view, the racist policies as we currently understand them, are bad business. The owner, if he wishes, can post more specifics about his policies if he wishes to. Quote
Guest kenrfc Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 HoleyMacro! 4 pages going 'round in circles with Kregger! Come on guys. He's not convincing us and we're not convincing him. Lets all go to the sauna and chill out! I need a singha Quote
Gaybutton Posted January 13, 2007 Author Posted January 13, 2007 In my view, the racist policies as we currently understand them, are bad business. The thing is that in your view it's a racist policy. In the view of most other people it is not a racist policy. The current results of your own poll so far indicate that very few agree with your position. Although Punya is welcome to post here if he so desires, I see no reason why he should feel any need to justify his policies to anyone. Your insistence that his policy is a racist policy does not make it a fact. It is your opinion and your opinion differs with nearly everyone else's. He is a Thai, running a Thai business within Thailand and is not in violation of any Thai laws, Thai morality, or Thai policies. If it was me I wouldn't see a need to try to justify something that not only needs no justification, but is a one-man issue with which hardly anyone agrees. Your syllogism is that Thai business that provide discounts to Thai citizens, and no one else, is a racist business. Sansuk sauna provides discounts only to Thai citizens. Therefore Sansuk sauna is a racist business. That simply does not stand up. Also, it is obvious that even if he does post a response here, you'll very likely try to tear apart anything he says, no matter what it is, because you are so adamant about your own position. Quote
Guest Kregger Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 People can think what they like, you are correct. The singha guy is also correct that few minds will be changed. It would be nice if the owner could at least publicly explain the specifics of his policy. I agree the owner doesn't have to do anything or say anything in response to this. But if he chooses to remain silent about this, that tells us something as well. Quote
Guest gay_grampa Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 Hey, here's an idea Why don't we let Punya run the place like he wants. It's his business, his country, his money. If you don't like the way he charges don't go there. I will be going there to test very soon ... and I don't give a shit what they charge me compared to a young Thai earning a few hundred bath a day. Quote
Guest Kregger Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 Hey, here's an idea Why don't we let Punya run the place like he wants. It's his business, his country, his money. If you don't like the way he charges don't go there. I will be going there to test very soon ... and I don't give a shit what they charge me compared to a young Thai earning a few hundred bath a day. Another brilliant grandpa that doesn't read. The Thai grandpa apparantly gets a discount too, so does the Thai big earners, because the pricing is based on Thai race. He has the only sauna in town, so now he has a monopoly on Pattaya gay saunas. So the public does have an interest in knowing about his pricing policies and whether they are ethical. Similar to baht bus fares, also racially based, and also a monopoly. It is not like avoiding a restaurant, in that case, you have thousands of alternatives. If the owner wanted to avoid controversy and discussion about his new sauna, he should have avoided the can of worm policy of race/nationality based pricing policies. BTW, I have no intention of boycotting the sauna. Maybe if it succeeds, someone else will open an even better sauna, in a better location, with non race based pricing policies. Quote
Gaybutton Posted January 14, 2007 Author Posted January 14, 2007 The Thai grandpa apparantly gets a discount too, so does the Thai big earners, because the pricing is based on Thai race. You keep writing "race" instead of "nationality." I'm beginning to wonder who is the real racist when race has absolutely nothing to do with the pricing policy, but you keep insisting that it does. There are many Thai citizens, including Caucasians, who are not members of this so-called Thai race, but they are Thai citizens nevertheless. According to the pricing policy, they too will be admitted at the discounted rate. You can keep insisting that this is a racist policy from now until Kingdom Come, but the fact is that the policy is based on nationality and not on race. Anyone holding a Thai national ID card is entitled to the discount, rich or poor, Thai "race" or any other race. As an aside, I can't help but note that this thread has received as many hits in a few days as someone else who posts on the various Thai message boards claims he normally gets within a half hour, or so, of his postings. Quote
Guest RichLB Posted January 14, 2007 Posted January 14, 2007 GB is quite correct when he notes that Thais are not a race of people. Kregger's insistance that they are may press hot buttons, but it defies anthropological definitions of what comprises a race. If the pricing policy is not based on race, it is obviously not racist. As to the logic of this clearly discriminatroy pricing policy (NOT racist) try to think beyond a single isolated entry. If I was the owner of the sauna I would want the place filled with young attractive people (Thai and non-Thais) as bait for us codgers to venture into the establishment. The non-Thais, however, are likely to be tourists who are here only for a short while and therefore do not need an inducement to return on a regular basis. The younger Thais likely live in Pattaya and if given free entry may become habitues of the sauna - thus attracting paying customers. I would think that anyone with any business acumen would recognize this and not see it as racailly based - since it clearly is not. Now, as to Maurice's somewhat efete view of wealthy Thais, my experience is quite different from his. Pattaya may be a brothel by the bay to his jaundiced eye, but judging from the rapid purchase of condos by wealthy Thais, his is not a universal view. I have had many Thai friends come to Pattaya for reasons other than the gogo bars and delights of the flesh. Quote
Guest Kregger Posted January 14, 2007 Posted January 14, 2007 I agree the issue of race versus nationality is worthy of discussion. I don't think it is a black and white thing as those who insist Thais are not a race assert, especially considering that Thais themselves (yes the ethnic Thais among the Thai nationals) consider themselves a race. The majority of Thai nationals are Thai ethnicity. If one were to accept that this has nothing to do with race (I don't), then this kind of pricing solely based on nationalism is also a bad thing for a commercial business. It makes sense for something like a Thai government run school tuition but NOT a commercial facility which advertises to foreigners like a sauna or restaurtant. Yes, of course, Thai nationals who are not Thai ethnicity would also receive any THAIS ONLY discount. That was always obvious and not anything I have even suggested wasn't the case. BTW, regarding the poll, it seems my view is most certainly not the tiny minority of one that you say! There is indeed a sizable chunk of people who do see the Thai vile habit of double pricing based on race (or nationality if you insist) to be odious. IS THE PRICING POLICY OF SANSUK SAUNA RACIST? Yes [ 6 ] ** [28.57%] No [ 15 ] ** [71.43%] Regarding, attracting young Thais with price incentives, I agree ONE HUNDRED PERCENT. Just does not have to be done by use of RACE or NATIONALITY. It was simpler to just say race, but you have forced the point. Frankly on this issue I think alot of the people who say the policy is not racist are thinking with their other head. A commercial business pricing policy that clearly discriminates based on RACE (or NATIONALITY, when that nation vastly comprises a distinct ethnic group) is clearly racist. If the owner doesn't think it is worthy of a response when a sizeable percentage of his public have a negative impression of his policies, again, that is HIS (bad) business. Good businessmen (and I don't care what country they come from or live in) do indeed step to the plate and address consumer issues. Quote
Guest gay_grampa Posted January 14, 2007 Posted January 14, 2007 Kregger - you are a real 'Last Word' type of guy. Can you post a photo of yourself on the board - I really would like to avoid you. Quote
Guest Kregger Posted January 14, 2007 Posted January 14, 2007 Kregger - you are a real 'Last Word' type of guy. Can you post a photo of yourself on the board - I really would like to avoid you. Please keep the personal attacks to yourself, Gramps. If you aren't interested in discussing this issue, you can just not read the board, OK? (Your advise to me re the sauna, back at ya) Quote
Gaybutton Posted January 14, 2007 Author Posted January 14, 2007 Please keep the personal attacks to yourself Gentlemen, let's keep the personal attacks out of this. Everyone has his own opinion and can express it, defend it, or attack the opinion itself, but if we're going to get into personal attacks, which is one of the things the new moderation policy is trying to prevent, then the result will be closure of the thread and moderated mode for those who persist in attacks. This thread has evolved into a debate over whether the pricing policy at Sansuk sauna is a racist policy or not. Please stick to the issue itself and end personal attacks here and now. Quote
khaolakguy Posted January 14, 2007 Posted January 14, 2007 Oh Pleeeaaasssee. If ever a thread deserved to be closed THIS IS IT!! You have all had your chains pulled again and again by a professional troll. Quote
