Only in Thailand

[vinapu]

Come on vinapu!! You sound like Donald Trump!

You do not love those Bubble Butts??

not in that , obviously forced,  situation

[hank75]

I agree with vinapu. The pictures are funny to us sitting at home but are actually a horrific example of abuse in the Thai military. Sorry to sound lacking in humour.

 

Edit: although, thank you to the posters for sharing, and confirming this actually does happen.

[vinapu]

I agree with vinapu. The pictures are funny to us sitting at home but are actually a horrific example of abuse in the Thai military. Sorry to sound lacking in humour.

 

Edit: although, thank you to the posters for sharing, and confirming this actually does happen.

agree on both counts

[Guest]

I agree with vinapu. The pictures are funny to us sitting at home but are actually a horrific example of abuse in the Thai military. Sorry to sound lacking in humour.

 

Edit: although, thank you to the posters for sharing, and confirming this actually does happen.

These are possibly an example of abuse, but I could not use the word horrific in this case.

 

If this is horrific, what adjective is remaining for cases where people in Indonesia receive lashes for gay sex or where people have their heads hacked off by ISIS ?

 

Mild abuse would be more appropriate for the cases shown in this thread, if it is abuse.

 

The tree climbing case could just be people having a laugh.

People in Japan seem to take nude group photos for fun. This seems less common in other countries, but I wouldn't entirely rule it out.

[paborn]

I agree. Before I call this abuse I would have to know far more about the reasons, the cultural imperatives, etc. The Thai military is not, despite our juvenile ideas, a gay organization. I would be interested in their rationale - before I judge I'm going to assume they know what they are trying to achieve.

[hank75]

These are possibly an example of abuse, but I could not use the word horrific in this case.

 

If this is horrific, what adjective is remaining for cases where people in Indonesia receive lashes for gay sex or where people have their heads hacked off by ISIS ?

 

Mild abuse would be more appropriate for the cases shown in this thread, if it is abuse.

 

The tree climbing case could just be people having a laugh.

People in Japan seem to take nude group photos for fun. This seems less common in other countries, but I wouldn't entirely rule it out.

While I understand where you are coming from, I would respectfully suggest that you not ask me to differentiate between degrees of abuse...my point was that unless this was 100% consensual between all participants (which I doubt) then it is clearly not right and should not be condoned, regardless if you view it as a harmless bit of fun or otherwise. Just as forcing gays into conversion therapy or boot camps, this could be a deeply disturbing situation for straights who are made to buckle under peer pressure or authority.

 

Maybe my reaction was a bit strong but to be completely honest the first image that came to mind was the Abu Ghraib footage. Yes I realise that it is a dramatic comparison so I hope no one will slam me for saying this.

[hank75]

Re: the gay sex lashing (which yes I would also term horrific and even stronger words), the problem is there are deep religious convictions behind this sort of attitude. I don’t think this is the case in Thailand so I don’t see the necessity of hazing young men in this manner, just to please a few kinky superiors. Groping someone on a train could be termed “mild” compared to rape, but doesn’t make it right either and definitely not for victim. Again not my intention to upset or offend anyone.

[paborn]

While I understand where you are coming from, I would respectfully suggest that you not ask me to differentiate between degrees of abuse...my point was that unless this was 100% consensual between all participants (which I doubt) then it is clearly not right and should not be condoned, regardless if you view it as a harmless bit of fun or otherwise. Just as forcing gays into conversion therapy or boot camps, this could be a deeply disturbing situation for straights who are made to buckle under peer pressure or authority.

 

There is a lot here to unpack, but:

 

1.  When, in all of human history, did you see military training that was 100% consensual? One does not vote on the drills to be run. One does not vote on when to get up in the morning- the bugle sounds - period.

2.  Before anyone labels, this "kinky" or in any way lued we need to understand the reasons behind the drill and not put our perceptions before we understand.

 

There is utterly no reason to assume this to be sexual in any way - other than our own ideas.

[witty]

I consider it a privilege for the one percent of young and healthy men over the age of twenty to go through the lewd drills. They get to be the baubles and sparkling decorations on the Christmas tree. Christmas doesn't happen every day, and you only live once.

By the way, the lads are paid at least the minimum salary during the time they're in the program.

[a447a]

I wonder how common these "drills" are in the Thai military.

 

I've seen a few photos over the years, such as the ones posted here, but when I've mentored it to guys over the years who have done military service, they say they've never experienced or seen anything like that.

 

If it's not consential then it is a form of abuse or hazing.

 

BTW, they also said that they'd never seen any sexual activity in the military, either. I've heard numerous accounts from farang of orgies and group jerk-off sessions in the barracks, but all the guys I've ever spoken to have denied ever seeing anything.

 

I think the farangs are simply letting their imaginations run wild.

[paborn]

Completely and totally wild. 

[vinapu]

Maybe my reaction was a bit strong but to be completely honest the first image that came to mind was the Abu Ghraib footage. Yes I realise that it is a dramatic comparison so I hope no one will slam me for saying this.

you have my support on the issue, abuse is abuse  

[Guest]

Abuse is abuse.

 

However, there is a difference between horrific abuse and mild abuse.

 

Assuming this is abuse, which is in my view, it probably is, then in my view it is a mild form of abuse.

 

One reason I'm not sure if it is abuse is lads do occasionally do naked group photos on stag dos & other events & the tree photo could be something like that.

 

Also, there are staged photos of similar type things on the web.

If these are by people who voluntarily agree to participate & are paid, then of course that wouldn't be abuse.

However, as stated, I reckon it is probably abuse.

 

Incidentally, if I was asked to do a naked group photo in a tree, or do SAS training and run 30 miles through the Brecon Becons with a backpack, of these two forms of abuse, I would take the tree. Admittedly, the run is slightly more defensible as it is relevant training.

 

What is pleasing to see is Hank75 is so ready to consider another point of view. Even if we have a slight disagreement on the adjective, this is one of the mildest disagreements in the history of the board.

 

Having 100% agreement on everything is not mandatory here.

Neither is it mandatory to behave in the very civilized way you have, however it certainly helps ! to

[bucknaway]

I'm sure the torture was short lived. The branches were broken while climbing will grow back, the leaves will grow back and the limbs may become even stronger. Trees often bounce back from such stresses.

[a447a]

In a country like Japan, where society is very much controlled and freedom to do what you want to is severely curtailed, when guys get drunk one of the first things they do is get naked. It's their way of strengthening the bond between each other and can be seen as a reaction against their society which strictly governs their behaviour.

 

So when I saw the guys up the tree, I wondered if this is their way of breaking free, rather than being forced into it. Maybe they are just having a bit of fun.

[paborn]

I don't have the Japan knowledge base, but I thought back to all the corporate training sessions and the icebreakers. Things like standing with your back to a colleague and falling back - allowing him to catch you.

 

That's why I remarked that we had to know the circumstances and the reasons before making any judgment about it. I think it is, likely, totally benign.

[traveller123]

I had another discussion with my partner about the photo.

He was surprised that people thought it was abuse, he thought it was just part of the training, a Thai way of demonstrating army discipline.

My view is that it is another illustration of the difference in Eastern and Western ways of thinking - I live in an Isaan village and I frequently have to remind myself that I choose to live here and can not inflict my values - don't get me started on cock fighting (supposedly illegal ha ha) and neglect of dogs.

[a447a]

My view is that it is another illustration of the difference in Eastern and Western ways of thinking .

Yes, that's my view, too.

[paborn]

He was surprised that people thought it was abuse, he thought it was just part of the training, a Thai way of demonstrating army discipline.

 

My point all along.

[Guest]

He was surprised that people thought it was abuse, he thought it was just part of the training, a Thai way of demonstrating army discipline.

 

My point all along.

 

Potentially not abuse at all then.   Discuss.

[paborn]

As I said above. There are training methods that seek to strip off our outer selves, to reveal core basics; to remove the mask we show to the world and having shorn that away allow intimate bonding to form. Thus we form a unit, a team, a platoon of soldiers.

 

I have no idea if these photos portray actual drills or are a hoax. But, I would not label them abuse without a great deal more knowledge than a simple photo.

 

What i am sure of is that this - if a true drill - is not, despite some members wild fantasies a sexual event performed to entertain grinning commanders.

[faranglaw]

In a country like Japan, where society is very much controlled and freedom to do what you want to is severely curtailed, when guys get drunk one of the first things they do is get naked. It's their way of strengthening the bond between each other and can be seen as a reaction against their society which strictly governs their behaviour.

So when I saw the guys up the tree, I wondered if this is their way of breaking free, rather than being forced into it. Maybe they are just having a bit of fun.

 

Really? I'm very skeptical. I lived in Japan for four years and never heard anything like this, except perhaps the very ritualized summer festival linked here:

 

https://www.insidejapantours.com/blog/2009/05/28/naked-japanese-men-the-japanese-festival-of-hadaka-matsuri/

 

In my years there, I saw no evidence that "when guys get drunk one of the first things they do is get naked." Not that I think it's a bad idea, mind you!

[a447a]

A few years ago in Shinjuku on New Years Eve some guys climbed one of the lamp posts outside the station. To the chants of "chinko misero!" (Show us your cock!) they stripped off. They were soon joined by another group who climbed the post on the other side of the street who did the same. There must have been at least a dozen guys involved. Sadly, the cold weather didn't do them any favours! The police came along, told them to get down, get dressed and move on. In Australia they'd be charged with Indecent Exposure, but in Japan it is no big deal - just guys being "naughty."

 

The nudity I personally encountered close up always happened behind closed doors. At the end of the year Japanese hold 'bounenkai" parties. From my experience over many years and having attended dozens of such events with colleagues, guys getting naked after a few glasses of Chuu-hai, dancing around and singing karaoke is par for the course. It's not sexual in any way - it's the Japanese way of bonding with your colleagues.

 

I don't know whether or not you speak Japanese, but they have an expression "hadaka no tsukiai" which refers to socialising in the nude. The idea behind it is that if you take your clothes off, rank and seniority disappears - everyone is treated as equal. It's the only time this happens.

 

At my company's bounenkai parties where, yes, I also dropped my pants, the divide between myself and my superiors magically disappeared. Respect language was toned down and we could laugh and joke together, and bitch and complain to our hearts content.. The next day at work, everything reverted to normal.

 

My Australian friends are horrified when I tell them what I got up to, but to me I see my behaviour in Japan as something quite normal.

 

The bottom line is, they see nudity completely differently to the way we do. To experience it, you need to belong to a tight -knit group, be it your work colleagues or just your friendship group. And again, it's non-sexual. And it's a feeling of freedom - being free from the strict social conventions of daily life in Japan.

[vinapu]

The bottom line is, they see nudity completely differently to the way we do...... And it's a feeling of freedom - being free from the strict social conventions of daily life in Japan.

but I doubt it's way they see nudity in Thailand where often I'm surprised when even go-go with lots of experience subconsciously are trying to cover  their jewels with hand or towel even if we just had a prolonged shower together

[paborn]

but I doubt it's way they see nudity in Thailand where often I'm surprised when even go-go with lots of experience subconsciously are trying to cover  their jewels with hand or towel even if we just had a prolonged shower together

 

The bonding exercise, in private, that a447a recounts is the sort of exercise I was supposing and, Vinapu, it is far, far from being naked in public and being gazed on by others. Very different indeed.