Retirement

[hank75]

I was just offered a unit in a new and very nice freehold development, walking distance from Thonglor BTS and starting from 1.79 million baht. Around 25.5 sqm for a studio so a one bedroom would be around US$70-80K I assume. If PeterRS’ statistics a correct this is a very good deal indeed and I can see why the agent says local investors are snapping it up.

 

Would be keen to hear more advice on the topic - perhaps I should look into this more seriously while there are still good freeholds to be had.

[hank75]

Some advice given to me by a friend that has purchased there, if buying, always go through a reputable real estate agent and not be tempted to a purchase from a private seller as some people have been taken for a ride that way. Also it may pay to have a legal firm check everything out for you, just to be on the safe side.

 

Oh a link about airbnb and whether it's legal or not. https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general/1467442/airbnb-bookings-illegal-court-declares

Excellent advice and thank you also for the AirBnB warning, all taken into account.

[bobsaigon]

(1)                Purchase of home in Thailand  (or any other place abroad): If you have not made arrangements for the home to be left to a local resident after your death, and choose to bequeath it to someone in your home country, the sale of the property and transfer of funds abroad could be extremely complicated and time consuming and in some cases quite costly to the beneficiary.

 

(2)       Health insurance:  Try to get a good policy in place (covering overseas treatment) before you have serious pre-existing health issues, i.e., while you are still in good health, perhaps in your 50’s.    If you wait till age 60 or later to start coverage, rates will be appropriately higher and if there are pre-existing conditions, coverage may be denied or be prohibitively expensive.   There are several reliable insurance sources with expat representatives in Thailand.

 

(3)       Sell everything at home in order to settle in Thailand?    And if that doesn’t work out for you and you want to sell your Thai home, be reminded that transfer of funds abroad may be restricted by the Thai government and you may need to explore secondary means of transfer, costing you X Thousand dollars.

 

(4)       Settle in a country where you need air-conditioning to survive?    That is not a minor consideration.

 

(5)       I’m 78, living in Saigon with my Vietnamese partner for the past 18 years.  Treatment and medicines for my health issues are not more than a few hundred dollars a month, much more affordable that the exorbitant insurance fees I would have to pay if I could find an insurer willing to cover my pre-existing conditions.  I am comfortable financially and my partner now has enough property in his name to ensure his comfort when I am no longer here.     If I were single at this point, I would probably be living in a location with four seasons and with people who speak English as a first language.  I’ll keep that in mind for the next life.

[Alizizou]

There's a lot retired couple from japan and korean stay permanently in kuala lumpur..even one place in KL we named it korean town..they bought house there..well..ofcourse they are not gay..LOL..

[PeterRS]

Desr Husband does not think it is possible for farang to get mortgages.

 

This is from the well-known Siam Legal website - https://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/thailand-property-financing.php. When I purchased, it had all to be in cash. It does seem that there has been a degree of loosing of the regulations since then.

 

• Most of the financial institutions in Thailand provide loans for real estate purchases to local Thais and Thai companies based on similar criteria we are used to in our home country.\
•  
• However foreigners generally cannot mortgage properties in Thailand. In fact, mortgage lending by local banks to foreigners was virtually unheard of in Thailand.
•  
• Nonetheless, in recent years we have seen a slight shift in policies to allow foreigners limited access to financing. This was instigated, in part, by the Thai government's eagerness to promote tourism and to encourage economic growth in Thailand

[ceejay]

I must have missed this thread when first posted. For what it's worth, my replies to Jun's original questions:

 

Have you/would you move to Thailand full time ?   (or elsewhere in SE Asia)

I have moved to Thailand full time. Been here for 4 years without returning to the UK.

Or stay there for several months a year ?  

I spent two years doing this before I moved full time. October-March in Thailand, April-September in UK.

Where in Thailand ? 

Chiang Mai.

Why that location ?

I considered several others (Bangkok, Pattaya, Nong Khai and Ubon Ratchathani to be exact). Settled on CM as having the best combination of cost of living, people, society of other expats, medical facilities and nearness to wonderful countryside but above all because I wanted to live here. I know a lot of people seem (for reasons inexplicable to me) to have a down on CM and I have come to the conclusion that this is, in part, due to it being (for some, at least) a better place to live than it is to visit. This may be true for other places - and so may the reverse. Bear that in mind.

Advice/questions for others ?

I have seen people advise drawing up a sort of balance sheet of pluses and minuses of Thailand compared to the home country and making the decision as to whether or not to relocate on that basis. Do not do this. In my experience people who do will, with the passage of time, start to take the pluses for granted and become obsessed with the minuses. Then they go mad - then they go home. Thailand comes as a package, take it or leave it. If you don't accept it on those terms it will bite you. If you don't feel in your gut that you want to live here, don't come because you will live to regret it if you do.

When to retire ?

As soon as your finances allow it. You don't get younger and you don't get fitter as the years pass. No one ever died wishing they had spent more time in the office.

 

An aside about buying condos. I did, when the exchange rate was over 50 baht to the pound. It is now 43 to the pound. Buying has in part insulated me from exchange risk - if I were renting I would have taken a 16% plus hit in sterling terms.

[PeterRS]

Judging from past responses, there are a lot of people who will advise you to rent and not to buy. Like ceejay I bought and have made both an exchange gain and will have made a very handsome profit whenever I eventually sell - barring some natural disaster or a property crash. Given the growing number of Chinese buying now in Bangkok I think the latter is unlikely. But it has happened before and could obviously happen again. If ever there is another crash like 1997, selling at the price you want is likely to take a lot of time.

 

I certainly would advise renting for your next few visits, if only to give you time to look more closely at the many different areas of the city. Most would prefer to live in the centre particularly if they plan on regular visits to the gay venues. But obviously that will involve a considerably greater initial financial outlay. 

[gerefan]

Gerefan .may I ask u have purchased a Condo?

Would that be cheaper for you guys that stay 3 months, 6 months etc to buy rather than rent for that short period?

I rent. The only way I could buy would be to sell my UK property which I am not prepared to do at present.

The rent is quite cheap. For a condo in Yensabai Condo I pay 690 per day, but have been staying there a long time.

[Terry4]

I rent. The only way I could buy would be to sell my UK property which I am not prepared to do at present.

The rent is quite cheap. For a condo in Yensabai Condo I pay 690 per day, but have been staying there a long time.

Last trip i met a Australian guy who spent 4 months of every year in Pattaya, told me would go mad if he stayed longer!

 

He had bought a Condo in Jomtien around 10 years ago, ironically it hadnt gone up in value,but he claims to have saved many thiusands of baht in Hotel costs over the years by purchasing one.

 

For the other 8 months he just locks it up .

 

Last visit I looked at the Nirun Condo up near Soi Bukhao, they start from 350k for a bedsitter and can easily be rented out for the 6 months of the year your not there.

[Boy69]

There is no doubt that property in Pattaya is very attractive in terms of value for money renting or buying.Pattaya has a lot of advantages:gay freindly city,short distance to BKK and the airport,beaches,low living costs and excellent night life.

If I would consider moving to the LOS Pattaya is definitely at the top my list.

[faranglaw]

Last trip i met a Australian guy who spent 4 months of every year in Pattaya, told me would go mad if he stayed longer!

He had bought a Condo in Jomtien around 10 years ago, ironically it hadnt gone up in value,but he claims to have saved many thiusands of baht in Hotel costs over the years by purchasing one.

For the other 8 months he just locks it up .

Last visit I looked at the Nirun Condo up near Soi Bukhao, they start from 350k for a bedsitter and can easily be rented out for the 6 months of the year your not there.

350k baht? Really? That seems very cheap.

[Terry4]

350k baht? Really? That seems very cheap.

Yes I guess Nirun Condo is considered by many farang as a “ lower class” condo area but walking around there I got this community type feel and a lot of friendly people both Thai and farang .

 

Another cheaper type Condo ‘ s is the Flybird Condo not far from Tonys gym.

 

At the moment im saving more into my retirement fund as i can,one wonders how much is enough to actually retire, bring into that the high cost of medical expenses etc that you may need

 

I was surprised recently reading on another forum xrays/ CT scans cost about 15;000 baht in Thailand so as you get older you may have to budget for medical expenses such as that.

 

Even having say $500,000 may not be enough now at say aged 60 to last you out your years.

Thailand is getting more expensive.

 

One thing I dont think I will ever do though is sell my residence back in farangland just in case I need to go back for medical emergency or whatever.

 

Another thing i have considered and kept changing over the years is where to retire,it used to be Pattaya but that was only because of the sex available for hire there but now with the apps you can virtually hire money or non money guys anywhere .

 

I think theres other things to consider when retiring somewhere other than availability of sex.

 

Medical services, crime , quality of life etc, are now important to me than the availability of sex workers.

 

Another thing to consider in retirement is how you are going to spend your days .

[vinapu]

 

Another thing to consider in retirement is how you are going to spend your days .

that's why I rather retire where I live, I can spend my days , among other things,  dreaming about and planning my next vacation in Thailand

[fedssocr]

I've been saving diligently and should have a very decent pension when I retire. I will be 51 soon and plan to retire at 62. I like Thailand but think I would go insane if I retired there. It's a nice place to visit though. As someone else up-thread mentioned, my ear doesn't really hear the Thai tones which made my attempts to learn the language a failure. But I suppose if you are immersed full time maybe that makes a difference. While you can get by without it, it seems like life would be better with at least a rudimentary amount of the language.

 

Given the road to hell the US is on I've been thinking about an escape plan though. 

[anddy]

[...] As someone else up-thread mentioned, my ear doesn't really hear the Thai tones which made my attempts to learn the language a failure. But I suppose if you are immersed full time maybe that makes a difference. While you can get by without it, it seems like life would be better with at least a rudimentary amount of the language.

 

that "tone deaf" argument is simply bullshit and untrue, and I mean for EVERYONE, regardless of country of origin and age. If you make a conscious effort to "hear" the tones for a couple of months or so, yes you will fail. It does take time (1 to 2 years) and patience to "tune in" to the tones, but it is actually possible and rather effortless. One or two years may seem long, but so what, if you're retired time is the one thing you have in abundance.

 

Also, it is a complete myth that western languages don't have tones. We don't have tones in individual words changing their meaning, but we do have tones in sentences, changing them, for example, from bland statements to a question or to convey some emotion such as surprise.

 

Consider these three sentences, which are absolutely identical in their (spoken) wording:

 

It is raining.

It is raining?

It is raining!!!

 

How do you tell the difference when this is spoken to you? By means of the tone of the sentence. So none of us is "tone deaf", it just takes time and some getting used to the tones being within words.

 

If you study Thai at AUA it will go as I said, effortless. Only thing required, again, are time and patience. See this blog to learn more about language learning the effortless way:

 

https://beyondlanguagelearning.com/

[bobsaigon]

that "tone deaf" argument is simply bullshit and untrue, and I mean for EVERYONE, regardless of country of origin and age

 It does take time (1 to 2 years) and patience to "tune in" to the tones, but it is actually possible and rather effortless.

 

UNLESS there are inhibiting psychological or other factors present.    That also needs to be considered.

[traveller123]

Anddy you should also remember that as you get older for most people learning, along with hearing, gets more difficult.

[paborn]

"The Cure For Tone Deafness and 'Pitchiness' Unfortunately, there is no known cure for tone deafness. The truly tone-deaf individual - for whom amusia represents a cognitive deficit - is someone who will never be able to learn to distinguish between notes and thus correctly sing the melody of a song."

 

It is my understanding that 1 in 20 has at least very great difficulty in distinguishing tones.  Western sentence tonalities are minor and, almost, laughably simple compared to the five tonalities for each word in Asian languages.

 

I never said; however, that it is impossible. But, I did say that I did not want to be discussing medical and legal affairs with professionals in a language I stumble in.  

 

Even if you can learn in two years of diligence it is a factor to consider when choosing a place to retire. One might be very sad to have not given it due thought.

[anddy]

that "tone deaf" argument is simply bullshit and untrue, and I mean for EVERYONE, regardless of country of origin and age

 It does take time (1 to 2 years) and patience to "tune in" to the tones, but it is actually possible and rather effortless.

 

UNLESS there are inhibiting psychological or other factors present.    That also needs to be considered.

sure, but those are exceptions rather than the rule

 

Anddy you should also remember that as you get older for most people learning, along with hearing, gets more difficult.

yes but actually learning a language the way it is taught at AUA is not "learning" in the traditional sense (as in learning maths, for example) but it is "language acquisition" which happens in a different, non-conscous way. It actually works automatically, no effort required. There appears to be little if any age-related limitation to that ability.

 

 

"The Cure For Tone Deafness and 'Pitchiness' Unfortunately, there is no known cure for tone deafness. The truly tone-deaf individual - for whom amusia represents a cognitive deficit - is someone who will never be able to learn to distinguish between notes and thus correctly sing the melody of a song."

 

It is my understanding that 1 in 20 has at least very great difficulty in distinguishing tones.  Western sentence tonalities are minor and, almost, laughably simple compared to the five tonalities for each word in Asian languages.

 

I never said; however, that it is impossible. But, I did say that I did not want to be discussing medical and legal affairs with professionals in a language I stumble in.  

 

Even if you can learn in two years of diligence it is a factor to consider when choosing a place to retire. One might be very sad to have not given it due thought.

tone-deafness for music seems to me a different thing from language tones. If that were true that 1 on 20 (i.e. 5%) have difficulty distinguishing tones, then 5% of the entire Thai (and Chinese and others, for that matter) population would have difficulty understanding and speaking their native language properly. I don't believe it.

 

Having said that, it may be true and a valid point that you might never get to the desired proficiency to discuss medical conditions and legal affairs in the foreign language. However, that's non concern at all to me as doctors in the private hospitals (in BKK) all speak English.

[paborn]

tone-deafness for music seems to me a different thing from language tones. If that were true that 1 on 20 (i.e. 5%) have difficulty distinguishing tones, then 5% of the entire Thai (and Chinese and others, for that matter) population would have difficulty understanding and speaking their native language properly. I don't believe it.

 

Having said that, it may be true and a valid point that you might never get to the desired proficiency to discuss medical conditions and legal affairs in the foreign language. However, that's non concern at all to me as doctors in the private hospitals (in BKK) all speak English.

 

Andy, to a certain extent, I agree with you. But, I do question your remark that this language acquisition is "effortless". You discount the fact that there is an effort. Even the effort to find a good course, a good teacher, etc. Commitment is a big thing. Considering what a retiree is willing to commit to needs to be considered. Honestly saying, " hell, I'll never do that." is not a fault it is a good self-awareness.

 

Yes, you can find professionals who speak English. However, I spent my consulting years working with lawyers to make sure that the governing language of a contract matched exactly what my company was agreeing to. A good negotiator has to make sure that we are never litigating over a comma. I do not want to rely on someone else providing the interpretation to me of the contract I'm signing. I can't ask "good" questions about a Thai document I can't read. Let us not forget that written Thai has 46 characters, 23 diacritical remarks and spacing only after sentences. ( If I'm wrong about this - my apologies ) Thus, it is even more difficult to master. A careful reading of my house insurance alerted me to its lack of coverage for a pipe bursting. Instant renegotiation - this concerns me in Thai. It is, I'm sorry, something to be considered. My insurance agent did not mention it. Excuse, "well most companies in our state don't cover water damage." Ok, But I want it and , more importantly, don't want a nasty surprise.

 

Yes, there is a difference between music tones and spoken - but far less a difference in an Asian tonal language than in English. Are 5% of the Thai less than fluent in their own language than the other 95%? I would hazard a guess that that is true - even in this area, we can't repeal the bell curve. In 2000, the last year I found data for Thai literacy was 92% Somewhere in that 8% are many reasons for issues - could the complexity of their own language be a problem? Even the literate vary in their abilities - take a sample of people in the street in any country and be the judge. Comedians do this all the time -

 

Finally, I have no doubt that with the course you recommend most of us here would be able to speak passable Thai. But this thread is about retirement and those thinking about retiring to a foreign land need to consider language proficiency as a factor in their lives.

 

[bobsaigon]

We are engaged in pure speculation, which could go on interminably.  No one can say for sure why ex-pats do not learn to speak Thai.     I would still suggest that psychological factors and physiological factors must be considered since they are far from "rare". But I also do not have any evidence to support my view. 

[paborn]

Agreed. But, a factor to be considered when doing an honest self-evaluation about living abroad.

[Guest]

Why people learn a language or not is a separate topic and belongs on it's own thread.

[Nasherich]

I have just retired and for the last few years was preparing to live permanently in Thailand. I've spent a lot of time and money learning the language and visited several times a year and many different places. But towards the end of the relationship with my Thai boyfriend, I suddenly "woke up" and evaluated what is most important to me. I decided that the stimulation of living in London with all it has to offer (in common with other cities) in the areas of music, art, theatre etc was key, together with other activities I partake in, and that I would miss those things too much.

 

I might think about it again in 10 to 20 years and I will certainly visit Thailand regularly in the UK winter months as it has a place in my heart, but at this stage I decided against a permanent move.

[anddy]

Finally, I have no doubt that with the course you recommend most of us here would be able to speak passable Thai. But this thread is about retirement and those thinking about retiring to a foreign land need to consider language proficiency as a factor in their lives.

first things first: Yes agreed. I've been living here for 4+ years though with zero issues. Admittedly, I didn't buy a condo, so didn't need to read a purchase contract. Rental contracts I've had so far were either in English only or bilingual. I have dealt with administrative issues (such as registering motorbikes, taking out extra insurance for it, visa exotension, etc) with no problem. 

 

Just for educational purposes, as it were, let me correct some things you've said:

 

 

Andy, to a certain extent, I agree with you. But, I do question your remark that this language acquisition is "effortless". You discount the fact that there is an effort. Even the effort to find a good course, a good teacher, etc. Commitment is a big thing. Considering what a retiree is willing to commit to needs to be considered. Honestly saying, " hell, I'll never do that." is not a fault it is a good self-awareness.

With "effortless" I was referring to the language acquisition (though the AUA method, not other schools) itself. Of course it takes a commitment and an "effort" (though not a learning effort) to go to school preferable every day. At school itself there is no effort involved (this is ONLY referring to AUA!!!). 

 

 

Yes, you can find professionals who speak English. However, I spent my consulting years working with lawyers to make sure that the governing language of a contract matched exactly what my company was agreeing to. A good negotiator has to make sure that we are never litigating over a comma. I do not want to rely on someone else providing the interpretation to me of the contract I'm signing. I can't ask "good" questions about a Thai document I can't read. 

True, though I find such circumstances rather exceptional and wouldn't (in fact haven't) let those prevent me from living here. In fact, those points apply to ANY foreign country to retire in that has a language different from your own. If that's a concern, that's a concern, sure.

 

 

Let us not forget that written Thai has 46 characters, 23 diacritical remarks and spacing only after sentences. ( If I'm wrong about this - my apologies ) Thus, it is even more difficult to master. 

You are wrong - Thai has even more characters LOL. 44 consonants, 36 vowels plus 4 tone markers. The lack of spacing is a pain in the neck, true. The number of character actually makes it EASIER to master, not more difficult, because it is highly phonetic, unlike English where spellings and related pronunciation make no sense whatsoever (presumably because of the adoption of a foreign alphabet, namely, Latin, for the "wrong" language). Consider the pronunciation of the letter combination "ough":

 

- enough

- plough, drought

- through

 -though

- tough

- thought

- thorough

- cough

 

and maybe more. Try to explain that to a Thai! I fully understand why Thais find English reading & writing much more difficult than Thai - because it is. The same is true for the language itself, English has all those difficult grammar things like tenses and conjugations and singulars and plurals and what not, compounded by irregular verbs.. Very difficult indeed. None of that in Thai, structurally MUCH easier. 

 

 

Yes, there is a difference between music tones and spoken - but far less a difference in an Asian tonal language than in English. Are 5% of the Thai less than fluent in their own language than the other 95%? I would hazard a guess that that is true - even in this area, we can't repeal the bell curve. In 2000, the last year I found data for Thai literacy was 92% Somewhere in that 8% are many reasons for issues - could the complexity of their own language be a problem? Even the literate vary in their abilities - take a sample of people in the street in any country and be the judge. Comedians do this all the time -

Literacy has nothing to do with the ability to master the SPOKEN language. In fact, every single human being that ever lived, including yourself, learned to speak their first language rather fluently BEFORE reading and writing. Also, many lagnnuages in history exited without ever devising a script to write it. Literacy is completely irrelevant to speaking a language. You may wish to acquire that ability, too, as a bonus so to speak, but necessary it is not. I have a farang friend who has lived here for 25_ years or so, speaks fluent Thai, but can't read and write.

Language ability, however, sure does vary, and so does vocabulary. But again, that has nothing to with literacy. Literacy or the lack thereof, in turn, has most likely more to do with poverty and access to education, certainly not with the complexity of the language, which it isn't there.

 

 

 

Again, this just for educational purposes and based on my own observations. Guess we can and should close the language off-topiic and get back to the retirement related issues ;-)