I'm not tipping them!

[reader]

Not the right thread? Why it's downright exceptional!

 

It's an excellent adventure of the first order, a wonderful tale that demonstrates your ability to set a goal and pursue it to its logical conclusion.

 

Bravo! Encore, Maestro!

[vinapu]

I'm confused as to how everyone is tipping. I might be doing it wrong - 28 trips I sure hope not.

I don't think there's such thing as wrong tipping, after all it's discretionary undertaking , no?

 

Too generous or too stingy, yes , but wrong? 

[ChristianPFC]

Tipping is the new religion, and I'm a non-believer.

 

In Thailand they expect to be tipped. Boys talk all the time about the customers that don’t tip and it will be reflected in service the next night if customer comes back.

 

As far as I know, tipping is not customary in Thailand and was brought in by tourists and is limited to tourist areas.

 

But staying with gogo bars, I don't tip general staff (but tip boys I touch 100 THB and boys I take home 1000 THB), and am greeted friendly by everyone every time I pass or enter.

 

I like it simple. I want to know in advance how it will cost me. I disapprove of menus in restaurants where VAT and/or service charge will be added. I don't think about whom to tip how much, depending on where I am in the world, I don't tip.

[ChristianPFC]

And yes, for Christian, you can't use the management as a reason not to tip; better to just say I don't tip and leave it at that.

 

As to Christian's statement.  I hope it's just to get a rise out of people, otherwise it's one of the most sad things I've ever read on this forum.  Withholding the tip because you think the manager should pay the waiter more is of course just a nonsense cover for not wanting to part with the money.  You're not confronting the manager and telling him to pay the waiter more.  The conduct does nothing to change the situation.  It takes advantage of it.  Seems rather shameful to me.  I'ld have much much more respect for someone who says, "I really have to watch every baht, but I want to live a lifestyle that lets me buy drinks for myself at these bars, so to stretch my money I don't tip, and frankly I don't care enough about the waiter to part with the money."     

 

I don't tip out of principle. I find the idea absurd. I pay the price in the menu.

 

There is one exception: taxis. When I take a taxi in Bangkok and the last digit is 1 I round to to full ten, and from 3 to 9 I round up to full 10. Sometimes the driver gives me exact change, which I don't take. The reason? The traffic is awful and I'm so glad I'm sitting in the passenger's seat and not the driver's.

[kokopelli]

Taxi drivers must love you, Christian.

[witty]

Bravo Christian!

Hang on to your principle as long as you're happy about it.

You're as virtuous as any person can be.

[spoon]

Just tip whoever u want whenever u want to. Dont feel the pressure to tip just because everyone do it. And tips accordingly as long as u can afford it. There are richie rch out there who tips their masseurs 1000usd, because they make 10million usd a month.

[Guest PeterUK]

I agree absolutely with the comments that tipping is up to the individual and no business of anyone else.  I worked for many years as a minicab driver in London and soon developed a philosophical attitude to tips.  Okay, as a general rule, certain nationalities created tipping expectations in me (eg Americans generous, Australians stingy, Africans no tip) but I found there were always exceptions and had no problem with that (especially when the expectations were surpassed).  As for the service I gave, I might talk entertainingly to a customer and get him quickly to his destination and not get a tip at all or I might sit there in a stoney silence, make a wrong turning or two and still get a good tip.  I'd have gone crazy if I'd worried about such apparent inconsistencies.  As I say, que sera sera became my watchword. 

 

You might say it's easy for a relatively well-off Westerner like me to adopt that attitude compared to a Thai working in a tourist bar but I think the same principle applies - up to the potential tipper.  In my own case, I'm guided partly by the cultural practice in the country where I find myself and partly by the quality of service I receive - and also frankly by my whim of the moment.  I know for certain that if someone serving me seems to be pushy about getting a tip I am less likely to give one or at any rate I'll give a lower tip than usual.  

[ChristianPFC]

Tipping is like religion. Whether you believe in god or not, whether you tip or not, the outcome is the same. I can get sick and will finally die, just like someone who prays every day for health and long life. I get served in restaurants and bars just like people who tip.

 

Coming back to my tipping of taxi drivers. For no money in the world would I want to drive a taxi in Bangkok. Whereas serving food or drinks requires no skills, even I could do it (although that would be a waste of my many talents). But while I look up to taxi drivers for their abilities to navigate Bangkok traffic and find their way, and tip them for that, I do not tip doctors. As has been said by others, tipping customs are inconsistent and illogical.

 

(Tipping must be my favorite pet peeve, and prices in Soi Twilight a distant second, and public transport in Chiang Mai on third place.)

[Guest]

Well, first of all to knock off the suggestion that airline flight attendants bring you food therefore they are the same, so gee, shouldn't you tip them, and if you're not tipping them, well, oh my, aren't you being ridiculously inconsistent.  No.  They're not the same.  It's not a huge mental stretch to see differences.  It's really not a stretch at all.  Among other things, there is no expectation of tipping, which is why everyone says it's silly (and probably a satirical bit of chain-yanking in the first place).  Conde Nast Traveler reports that the Association of Flight Attendants (AFA) is quite opposed to tipping.  Any self-respecting flight attendant will tell you that they view their job as much more than food service. 

 

Similarly, it's within all our mental capacities to realize that customers don't tip at 7-11.  And it seems weak, in every sense of the word, to try to argue that because we don't tip at 7-11 we shouldn't tip at a gogo bar or beer bar.

 

So now we're in Bangkok at the gay bars and the gay restaurants and the gay gogo bars, where tipping is customary.  If someone is suggesting that tipping is not customary at those establishments, all I can I say is that I believe you are mistaken.  And that's not the premise of Christian's logic, which was refreshingly explicit (`1) yes, the waiter deserves more, and (2) I know he's currently not getting it, but (3) I have paid so much for my drink I don't want to pay the waiter anything more, and (4) but the boss should.  (Even though I know at this time the boss isn't.)  So the person getting the short end is the waiter is undeniably the waiter.  And, as I pointed out, not tipping is not doing anything to change the situation.  It's not standing on principle.  The sole focus is how much "I" paid for the drink and "my" subjective conclusion that it is so high that "I" am freed from any obligation - customary at that bar - to tip. 

 

Now of course if the boss raised the drink prices and paid the waiter more, that would lead to a chorus of complaints I am sure.  So really, the argument is, the drink is so expensive the bar should just make less profit.  Even though I have no clue of the profits.  And that's why it's ok for me to stiff the waiter, even though other customers are tipping.  

 

Finally, at the places where the drinks are the most expensive, with the 400 baht drinks that z909 thinks is so outrageous that not tipping is apparently justified (!!!) - the point has been made so many times in the past, including by the great but sadly departed author of the BangkokBois website (RIP), that 400 for the drink is for more than the drink.  It's the cover charge for the show.  It's the opportunity to sit and flirt with young hotties in their underwear.   It's for operating a brothel.  So you pay more.  A lot more.  That's not a hard concept to grasp.  The waiter is not just bringing you a 400 baht drink.  He's bringing you 200 baht drink and you're paying a 200 cover charge/show fee/brothel fee.   What - you want to see the show, grope a bit, stare at the line up of guys all for free???  That's nonsense.  Stay outside in the beer bars where the drinks are cheaper -- and I certainly hope you tip the guys out there.  

 

You have offered no logical reason to explain why I should tip a waiter who has bought me a 400 baht drink, but not tip a waiter on a plane or staff in a 7-eleven.      You haven't even attempted to explain it, rather you just say I'm wrong.   Sorry, that's not a good enough argument.  

 

As Christian said earlier, tipping is like a religion.  

 

You have your beliefs and are not even prepared to consider any diverging views or offer a rational explanation.    Just like a religion.

 

I'll tip where I decide it's merited.

 

I will not tip based on some long list of arbitrary rules derived in the US, which are absolutely not normal in many other countries, particularly in Asian countries.  

[NIrishGuy]

when.... the last digit is 1 I round to to full ten, and from 3 to 9 I round up to full 10. 

 

 

What if the last digit is 2  - so, no tip then ? 

[DivineMadman]

You have offered no logical reason to explain why I should tip a waiter who has bought me a 400 baht drink, but not tip a waiter on a plane or staff in a 7-eleven.      You haven't even attempted to explain it, rather you just say I'm wrong.   Sorry, that's not a good enough argument.  

 

The reason/argument that I gave you I thought was fairly straightforward.  You might disagree with it.  But to say I haven't even attempted to explain it seems, well, rather disingenuous.  Usually the weaker the argument the more silly bluster like that.   As I alluded too way back, I would have much more respect for someone who just says, "I'm on a budget, the places are a bit more expensive than I could otherwise afford to visit as often as I would like, so if I can save some money not tipping I do so, and maybe even feel bad about it, and thank goodness there are people out there like paborn to make up for it."  I would have a lot more respect. 

 

To repeat, the reason that I gave was that there is no expectation of tipping in the case of flight attendants & the girls at 7-11.   Indeed the association of flight attendants is very much opposed to the idea.  (Remember, I pointed that out before.)  Tips aren't priced into them taking their job, or management setting their compensation levels, or part of their union negotiations, and certainly some airlines have explicit rules prohibiting tips.  Flight attendants don't view themselves merely as waiters.  They are air safety officers and much more.  Have you never dated a flight attendant???  Workers at 7-11 take their job not expecting tips -- but will you make them smile a bit if you give them something?  Of course.

 

Waiters at, say Maxi's, have a different arrangement.  The opportunity for tips is part of their overall compensation package.  Now, they know full well that some people will tip well and some won't.  But overall, tips are part of their compensation arrangement.  They know that they may have to flirt and perhaps be groped now and then, which wouldn't happen at some other places, but know they make good tips so they work and work hard.  Flight attendants don't expect tips (or, according to their trade group, want tips).  Now you can latch on this and say, ahhhh, waiters know that some people won't tip and I want to be one of those people.  That can be you.  But that doesn't change the difference between the flight attendant (tips not part of the compensation arrangement) and the waiter (tips are a part of the compensation).   

 

This sort of a difference -- situations where tips are part of the compensation arrangement or when they very much are not -- is well recognized and even part of the law in the U.S., and I expect anywhere else where tipping is common  -- In the U.S. laws regarding minimum wages always have exception for industries where part of the compensation is tips (such as nicer restaurants).  [To avoid getting distracted here - I'm not trying to say tipping in Thailand is the same as in the U.S., I am just pointing out that the difference between the tipping-is-a-part-of-the-deal situation (waiter) vs. no-tip (flight attendant) is not something unusual or too subtle or that I just made up.  It's actually a fairly straightforward legitimate distinction.  So you can't just continue stomping your feet and saying I haven't even tried to make an argument.]

 

This is what we call "a difference."  Or if it helps, a distinction that makes a difference.

 

A waiter at a Thai local spot out in country will invariably have a different expectation, and I'm not saying the tipping expectation is true there.  We're just talking about the gay tourism spots that offer the drinks that you find so expensive -- and yet are somehow compelled to buy.

 

This is all just a re-hash of the the same point/argument I made before.  Seems a shame you chose to ignore it and then say I didn't even try to explain.  

 

I do see that you do say that I gave you no "logical" argument, so if want the logical explanation, here you go.  Consider it a gift.  Or if you like, a tip.  

 

You are saying (1) the flight attendant brings me drinks/no tip, (2) the waiter at Maxi's brings me drinks; therefore (3) the waiter at Maxi's/no tip.  This is what we call "false."  It has the identical logical flaw as the following that you might remember from school days:  (1) Elephants are a mammals, (2) Socrates is a mammal; therefore (3) Socrates is an elephant.  False.   You're making the same logical error.  

 

The truth is, I don't care if you or anyone else tips.  If not tipping brings you joy, ok.  Be happy.  But, if I present an argument then don't just try to shout it down by saying "you didn't even try".  I did try.  I actually think I have the better argument.  If you would like to convince me, feel free, but you would have to do more than just say you can't tell the difference between waiters and flight attendants based on the one common characteristic that they bring a beverage. You have to explain why the distinction that I made between the two is either false or irrelevant.  And just to be clear, your argument would have to hold true using the example I just gave on when the law for minimum wages recognizes the difference between tipping and non-tipping businesses, because it's the same point.  Endlessly repeated.

 

And of course, if you really can't tell the difference, then perhaps spread the joy a little bit more and go ahead and tip the girl or guy at 7-11.  Tip the flight attendant if you can (or, follow reader's advice and give them a box of cookies).  That also solves your problem.

 

All this could have been avoided had you not so felt the need to say I didn't even attempt to explain.  

[bucknaway]

Here is a thought for you Christian.  In Thailand your charged higher prices because you're a foreigner and to top it off they expect a generous tip on top of it.

 

In Dj Station, the staff is greatful if I tip 20 baht or 100 baht.

In Sunee, the waiter that brings me a drink is happy if I tip 20 or 100 baht.

 

It's only in a few locations that expect champagne level tips just for delivering me a glass of water or beer to my seat.  Hell, if it would make things easier, they can let me get my own beer, I won't mind.

 

Now I will carry a supply of 20 baht notes to put in the envelope.  The workers have their tricks to get a bigger tip like putting a bunch of 5 and 10 baht coins in the check-bin, or putting 50 baht notes in the folder or they take an exceptionally long time  to bring the change.  In my mind, I think they are using that trick hoping you will leave before they return with the change you are do.

 

My trick will be to empty the wallet of coins and 50 baht notes and put a fresh, crisp 20 baht note in the wallet.

 

I still laugh about the bar in PatPong that had the coins glued to the plate

[paborn]

One quick question:  Were do you guys get all the small change? Seriously.

 

Thank you, Divine, for explaining this so clearly, not that it was not clear before.  I have been looking at websites devoted to explaining the fine art of tipping. Every guide book I have ever read has attempted to discuss the issue in a cultural context. Nowhere, however, does any author consider it a reasonable action that one not tip in the correct environment.

 

Oh, and one last word from my decades as a T&E consultant. Any tight-fisted visitor to the U.S. should know that when wait staff file their income tax returns the Internal Revenue Service has a standard tip amount adjusted to their reported wage that if they fall below will likely trigger an audit.

[paulsf]

One of the best places to get 10 baht coins is at the BTS stations.

[bucknaway]

One quick question:  Were do you guys get all the small change? Seriously.

 

Thank you, Divine, for explaining this so clearly, not that it was not clear before.  I have been looking at websites devoted to explaining the fine art of tipping. Every guide book I have ever read has attempted to discuss the issue in a cultural context. Nowhere, however, does any author consider it a reasonable action that one not tip in the correct environment.

 

Oh, and one last word from my decades as a T&E consultant. Any tight-fisted visitor to the U.S. should know that when wait staff file their income tax returns the Internal Revenue Service has a standard tip amount adjusted to their reported wage that if they fall below will likely trigger an audit.

 

One place I get 20 baht notes from are the exchange booths.  You can get a stack of fresh 20 baht notes for 2000 baht I think.  I went to one after taking out 10,000 baht at their ATM.  I wanted 20 baht notes.  I think she misunderstood and held out her hand and said 2000 baht.  I gave it to her and she gave me back a stack of 20 baht notes.

 

Regarding tips in the USA.  My BF use to be a waiter and if he was shorted on a tip, he informed the management and they would move something like a dessert or something from the check so that it could be used as a tip for the waiter.

 

When you are in Thailand, you may get quoted high prices for things and they will justify it by asking you how much would you pay if you were in NYC?  Do you pay it or not?  Up to you.  

[biguyby]

I think that Christian has hit the nail on the head, tipping is like having a religion.

 

Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around... and PLEASE don't try to shove it down my throat.

 

(Unless you're a gorgeous twink)

 

Likewise it's great to tip but there's no need to tell the world about it.

[DivineMadman]

  I have been looking at websites devoted to explaining the fine art of tipping. Every guide book I have ever read has attempted to discuss the issue in a cultural context. Nowhere, however, does any author consider it a reasonable action that one not tip in the correct environment.

 

I always research tipping practices in a country before visiting.  Certainly in Bangkok city center and the touristic parts of town tipping has become customary.  But worth noting that each year it does seem that more and more places are adding a 10% service charge, so beware.

 

Paulsf clued me into getting coins for laundry from the BTS, but some stations do have limits on the how many they will give at a time.  Earlier this year there was a bit of a shortage of 10 baht coins.  Don't know if that's still the case or not.  

[vinapu]

 

My trick will be to empty the wallet of coins and 50 baht notes and put a fresh, crisp 20 baht note in the wallet.

 

 

this is what I do as well although I take great care to have lots of change in the first place to avoid situation like that ( long live change counters on BTS stations).

[vinapu]

  (1) Elephants are a mammals, (2) Socrates is a mammal; therefore (3) Socrates is an elephant.  False.   You're making the same logical error.  

 

 

he can't be , he is dead already

[vinapu]

.... whether you tip or not, the outcome is the same. I can get sick and will finally die, just like someone who prays every day for health and long life. I get served in restaurants and bars just like people who tip.

 

 

correct but if tip is expected and I did not tip than I'd refrain from visiting that restaurant  in near  future, there's long way from kitchen to the table  

[reader]

When all is said and done, a few things remain abundantly clear:

 

(1) The topic of this post is among the more popular. By entering "tip" and "tipping" in the search function, here are the results for a dozen posts dating back to about one year ago.

 

12 posts,  1,115 replies       68,700 views

 

(2) As in politics and religion, none are likely to change a poster's views on the subject.

[ChristianPFC]

What if the last digit is 2  - so, no tip then ? 

Have you ever been in a taxi in Bangkok? They start at 35 THB and then go up in steps of 2 THB.

 

To support DivineMadman's argumentation, we would need the wage of staff at 7-Eleven (or any other place that has lots of employees and where tipping is not common) with wait staff in the entertainment industry.

 

But even if there is a discrepancy, I keep my argument that that's up to them to negotiate a wage they can live on. I have my own problems, I don't want to hear of any other person's problems (except friend's problems).

 

I think the evil of tipping has been brought to the world by US-Americans. It's a nuisance, just like daylight saving time, that should be abolished (both, or throw in driving on the left or right side of the road, to make it three, and different power plugs, four).

 

As for getting small change, that now goes automatically that pay with different notes/coins depending on place (1000 THB notes in 7-Eleven or in well lit, reputable places where I can see what's going on and have time to wait for change), exact amount everywhere dimly lit and where I don't want to wait for change. And always keep 3 x 10 THB coin in my room for the washing machine.

[paborn]

Christian, I find I must defend my country. It is far too easy to blame Americans for everything:

 

 

The practice of tipping began in Tudor England.^[12] "By the 17th century, it was expected that overnight guests to private homes would provide sums of money, known as vails, to the host’s servants. Soon afterwards, customers began tipping in London coffeehouses and other commercial establishments".^[12]

The etymology for the synonym for tipping, "gratuity", dates back either to the 1520s, from "graciousness", from the French gratuité (14th century) or directly from Medieval Latin gratuitas, "free gift", probably from earlier Latin gratuitus, "free, freely given" . The meaning "money given for favor or services" is first attested in the 1530s.^[9]

 

In some languages, the term translates to "drink money" or similar: for example pourboire in French, Trinkgeld in German, drikkepenge in Danish, and napiwek in Polish. This comes from a custom of inviting a servant to drink a glass in honour of the guest, and paying for it, in order for the guests to show generosity among each other. The term bibalia in Latin was recorded in 1372.

[kokopelli]

 

 

I think the evil of tipping has been brought to the world by US-Americans. It's a nuisance, just like daylight saving time, that should be abolished (both, or throw in driving on the left or right side of the road, to make it three, and different power plugs, four).

 

What side of the road do the Germans drive on in Germany?