Condemnation of "disgusting farangs" in this Land of Smiles...

[steveboy]

It is so heart warming to read the condemnations of these stupid farangs who exposed their butts in a temple, and how they deserve lashes and other punishment for their crime...   Crime?

 

It just came to my attention an episode in the news that confirms that not all is smiles in this land:

 

"Thai cadet’s death, organ removal spark debate on military’s hazing culture"

 

"When the parents could receive the corpse of their 18-year-old son, he lacked brain, heart, stomach and bladder. Now they demand clarification. The death of the cadet sheds light on brutal practices in the Thai military"

 

One can google articles about this incident everywhere.

 

With the smiles of the money boys and other nice Thais we cross everywhere it is easy to forget that there is a repressive regime in place. To give lashes to some immature tourists who exposed their butts in a temple? Is this so different from the case of the American tourist in N. Korea who was caught removing a political pamphlet and thrown in jail which caused his death?  I rather choose to live in a country with good individual rights. 

[PeterRS]

With the smiles of the money boys and other nice Thais we cross everywhere it is easy to forget that there is a repressive regime in place. To give lashes to some immature tourists who exposed their butts in a temple? Is this so different from the case of the American tourist in N. Korea who was caught removing a political pamphlet and thrown in jail which caused his death?  I rather choose to live in a country with good individual rights. 

 

Good for you Steveboy. You live where you want to live. Great! Im sure were all happy for you.

 

As for your examples and conclusions, I take exception. Those idiots dropping their pants was just that - senseless idiots with no idea of Thai culture and sensibilities. As one poster said, try that stunt and be caught in Singapore and they will definitely be sentenced to caning. Is Singapore a repressive regime?

 

The cause of the dreadful death of that military cadet has not yet been determined by either the military doctors or the private doctors hired by the family. So drawing conclusions is a bit early. From what I read there seems to have been some form of extreme hazing involved. If so I abhor it. It is easy to forget that it is not so long ago that this practice allegedly was finally stopped at US military academies. But that has not stopped US cadets killing themselves. 2 West Point cadets killed themselves in early 2010 and hazing was believed to be one of the reasons. Odd too that 128 American cadets killed themselves in calendar 2008. To suggest that hazing is the result of a repressive regime is frankly nuts! 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/29/AR2009012904135.html

 

As for the organs of the deceased being withheld, I agree. The family should definitely have been informed. On the other hand, the internal organs are necessary for an autopsy. Why the family was not informed we do not yet know. 

 

Since you don't like repressive regimes, no doubt North Korea and Thailand have been struck off your future holiday list. How about Singapore?

[a447a]

I rather choose to live in a country with good individual rights.

What about the rights of the Buddhists not to have their religion disrespected?

 

Or don't they count?

[Alexx]

I think in this case Steve has a valid point - the priorities the Thai public and Thai prosecutors have are often weird! It goes without saying that it's easier to go after misbehaving tourists than after rich kids committing vehicular manslaughter or after army units that overdo it on the discipline front. That's all very well, but claiming any kind of moral high ground before that backdrop is plain ridiculous to any sane outside observer.

[reader]

Steveboy wrote:

 

"I rather choose to live in a country with good individual rights."

 

That sound you hear, Stevie, is the grand rejoicing of Thais arising from across the land

[steveboy]

Since you don't like repressive regimes, no doubt North Korea and Thailand have been struck off your future holiday list. How about Singapore?

 

There is no doubt that Singapore is a repressive regime, evident by their repressive laws.  As a gay man, the first that comes to mind is their anti-gay law section 377A.  And their "sedition" law is typical of a repressive regime.

 

But to vacation in a place is different than to live there, and I have been traveling to Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand without problems. 

[steveboy]

What about the rights of the Buddhists not to have their religion disrespected?

 

What moral principle says that religion cannot be disrespected?

Most religious people disrespect ALL religions...  except their own!

[Guest omega]

Longtime lurker popping up. 

 

1. If you visit a foreign country, especially one with some very strict laws, you should avoid getting into trouble. 

 

2. While I would agree with Steveboy about religion having a right to be respected, this is a general principle and not one that should be upheld when *visiting* a highly religious country. 

 

3. That said, it is utterly disrespectful to the Thai's hospitality to do something that *they* consider so insulting. 

 

4. Personally, I think a fine would be appropriate punishment, but I'm not Thai and I don't get a say. 

 

4. It's highly unscientific to take a single story and extrapolate a narrative that applies to the whole country. Each story is just a thread in a pattern in the tapestry that is a country. It could be argued that every countries tapestry is a shade of grey, some are just lighter shades than others. 

[steveboy]

Longtime lurker popping up. 

 

1. If you visit a foreign country, especially one with some very strict laws, you should avoid getting into trouble. 

 

2. While I would agree with Steveboy about religion having a right to be respected, this is a general principle and not one that should be upheld when *visiting* a highly religious country. 

 

3. That said, it is utterly disrespectful to the Thai's hospitality to do something that *they* consider so insulting. 

 

4. Personally, I think a fine would be appropriate punishment, but I'm not Thai and I don't get a say. 

 

4. It's highly unscientific to take a single story and extrapolate a narrative that applies to the whole country. Each story is just a thread in a pattern in the tapestry that is a country. It could be argued that every countries tapestry is a shade of grey, some are just lighter shades than others. 

 

Hi Lurker Omega.  Glad you are joining the conversation.

1.  This is something that dumb inexperienced people need to learn sooner or later.

2.  And they need to learn where and when to upheld their well entitled principles.

3.  Thai hospitality has a lot to do with foreign money.  One should refrain everywhere to do something insulting.

4.  Don't let those who argue and attack you with "it's up to the Thai" affect your freedom of thinking.

[a447a]

What moral principle says that religion cannot be disrespected?

 

I don't know. But I'd hazard a guess and say it is the same principle behind those signs displayed at immigration counters stating that you cannot take a Buddhist artefact home as a souvenir.

 

But I do know that in Thailand it's an offence to insult religion, appear naked in public and to use a computer to post lewd photos.

 

They should have looked into Thai law and punishment before heading over there and only then make a decision on whether or not to drop their pants at a religious site.

 

They could be spending the next few years in the Bangkok Hilton.

[pong]

All the fora I am/was obliged to read are full of vehement ''death-punishment'' outcries.about these bum-showers.

ThaiVisa mentioend they got off with a 5000 THB fine (=around 160US$) plus some undisclosed ban-time to enter TH. They had done the same thing in other ASEAN countires during their trip, as their mobuys showed.

Yet another, here not to be disclosed, forum told they were GAY.

[Guest bidreamer]

when reading this thread, it somehow reminded me the images of American soldiers torturing and humiliating prisoners in Iraq some years back. There was for example a very publicized case of a female soldier kicking and beating naked prisoners and some sexual humiliation. Isn't it even worse when you do it not at your home country but at a country that you are (temporarily) occupying? So according ot OP:s way of reasoning, what would that tell us about American society and the repressive nature of its government?? 

In case it wasn't clear, I mean this as an example of how you *shouldn't* do generalizations from single events.

 

Also, to me it's the sorriest thing to see and hear tourists visiting a country and blasting its people and society. There are things to critisize everywhere, certainly also in Thailand, but why, as a visitor, make a point of doing so? If it is minor, concentrate on good things, if it becomes too much, simply dont go there.

[steveboy]

when reading this thread, it somehow reminded me the images of American soldiers torturing and humiliating prisoners in Iraq some years back. There was for example a very publicized case of a female soldier kicking and beating naked prisoners and some sexual humiliation. Isn't it even worse when you do it not at your home country but at a country that you are (temporarily) occupying? So according ot OP:s way of reasoning, what would that tell us about American society and the repressive nature of its government?? 

 

It did not remind you of the images of German, Russian, Japanese soldiers in foreign lands in he days of WWII?  They were not female soldiers kicking and giving some sexual humiliation to their prisoners.  They were male soldiers shooting them and then throwing them in mass graves, or killing civilians in gas chambers.  And... were they punished by their commanders for that? Of course not!  It says a lot about the higher moral standards of the American society that the Americans involved in the acts you mention were prosecuted and punished for their acts by their own American Military. 

 

And how you compare the reaction to two dumb guys who merely exposed their butts in some public place, to the reaction of soldiers towards captured enemy soldiers whose task was to kill them?  

 

Also, to me it's the sorriest thing to see and hear tourists visiting a country and blasting its people and society. There are things to critisize everywhere, certainly also in Thailand, but why, as a visitor, make a point of doing so? If it is minor, concentrate on good things, if it becomes too much, simply dont go there.

 

Why shouldn't tourists be entitled to their opinions and so praise or criticize what they observe in the lands they visit?  By the criticism in your comment and by the way you don't want people to have opinions, you seem to have quite a totalitarian mentality.  Criticism is insulting and negative only when it is told to the wrong people at the wrong time and circumstances.

[vinapu]

 

 

 

Why shouldn't tourists be entitled to their opinions and so praise or criticize what they observe in the lands they visit?

they are, but by expressing them they risk of being shown the door .

 

The same goes with guests in our own homes , they are fee to criticize food we feed them and bed we let them to sleep in but by exercising such freedom of speech they risk not to be invited again at best and invitation to jump from balcony  at worst.

[steveboy]

... but by exercising such freedom of speech they risk not to be invited again at best and invitation to jump from balcony  at worst.

 

I have never invited a guest to jump from my balcony.  I don't have a balcony, because my house is all in  the ground floor (I'll be happy about this in the next 20 years...)

 

We should exercise freedom of opinion, but wiseness of speech should supersede freedom of speech. 

[santosh108]

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.

 

Freedom often equals "free dumb".

[spoon]

U can say what u want but other people can too, and in freedom, there is always consequences. If a stranger comes to my home mooning his ass, he risk a swift kick in the groin from me.

[steveboy]

U can say what u want but other people can too, and in freedom, there is always consequences. If a stranger comes to my home mooning his ass, he risk a swift kick in the groin from me.

 

You have the freedom to do so.  Others act differently.  Take for example Vinapu, who has oodles of strangers come to his hotel room where they moon their asses and everything else, and he doesn't kick them in the groin...  i suppose.

[steveboy]

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.

 

Isn't it nice to have nothing to lose?

[vinapu]

.  Take for example Vinapu, who has oodles of strangers come to his hotel room where they moon their asses and everything else, and he doesn't kick them in the groin...  i suppose.

they don't. I don't let my boys to undress themselves. I undress them  myself . And it takes a while , it's why I'm all for long time  

[bkkguy]

if Thai people at the temple to get lucky lottery numbers, release captive birds or to book a monk to come and "bless" their new car or house where offended by a few pieces of exposed flesh then perhaps they need to review their own behavior if they don't want to appear sanctimonious

 

bkkguy

[KhorTose]

 

Steveboy’s rant about a oppressive Thai regime is true, but it has little or nothing to do with the two idiots who bared their asses at the temple.  Yes, the regime is oppressive to its poorest people, but we farangs are free to be as stupid and as truly disrespectful as we can AFFORD to be.  In this country, money is freedom, and if these two jerks want to contribute to some police captains retirement-----well more power to them.

[reader]

Oppressive or not, using this forum to criticize Thais in general, or the powers that be specifically, may threaten the distribution.of this site within the kingdom. Although it originates outside of Thailand, authorities can pull the plug on it inside, making it either unavailable or difficult to access by readers in Thailand. New websites are regularly added to the no-go list and it would be a shame to see this one join it.

[Alexx]

I'm not so sure, reader. Given the choice between over the top self-censoring by the membership and not being able to access this site from within Thailand, I'd probably choose the latter (there are ways...) because I for one am interested in reading what people really think. Sure, there should be some red lines, and it could be argued that many contentious issues aren't relevant to this particular special-interest forum anyway, but still, members should be able to voice their opinion on happenings in Thailand even if it's at odds with that of Thailand's rulers of the day.

[reader]

....members should be able to voice their opinion on happenings in Thailand even if it's at odds with that of Thailand's rulers of the day.

I don't disagree, Alexx, with your general premise but I do believe that some degree of discretion is wise given the current regime's willingness to exercise its extraordinary powers.

 

And I agree that there indeed are "ways" (i.e., vpn) to get around things. However, I think most members can self-monitor their remarks without resorting to over-the-top censoring that I'm not endorsing because it's not appropriate or needed.