How could United Airlines have screwed up so badly?

[Guest]

The Easy Jet Flexi Fare allows changes UP TO 2 HOURS BEFORE the flight.

 

So if you no show, Easy Jet still pocket the money.

[firecat69]

It must be one millionth of 1% who don't pick up the phone before the 2 hour deadline.

[steveboy]

Sorry Christian but when you go outside Thailand Topics you don't know what you are talking about.

 

WOW....  arrogance galore...

 

 

The bottom line in the USA less then 1 passenger for every 10,000 gets bumped and 90 % of those take the voluntary compensation and so less then 1/10 of 1% of passengers are ever denied boarding.

 

If so, this means that paying this 1 passenger up to $10,000 in compensation can at most result in $1 more in ticket prices, not your "doubling of prices".

 

 

Lot of BS about nothing. Just 2 airlines out of the many I have flown I have over 3 million miles and have never been bumped.

 

Lot of BS about nothing. Hopefully you don't get cancer from radiation with all these million miles flown.

[firecat69]

Even though I have you on ignore, every one in awhile I click on you to see if you manage to post anything useful. As usual you did not. Unlike you I posted the link to point out what I am saying and your sentence about paying a passenger $10,000 in compensation is so idiotic , I have no idea how to reply.

 

Won't be clicking on you any longer!! Some people like you fail to understand that because of the sophisticated programs the Airlines have and their ability to overbook flights, they are able to plan their finances based on maximum capacity being utilized.

 

The small number of people who get involuntarily bumped is just part of the airline industry and acceptable in order to offer the low fares that they do.

[steveboy]

Even though I have you on ignore, every one in awhile I click on you to see if you manage to post anything useful. As usual you did not. Unlike you I posted the link to point out what I am saying and your sentence about paying a passenger $10,000 in compensation is so idiotic , I have no idea how to reply.

 

It is "every ONCE in a while".  My sentence must be idiotic to you because you don't understand mathematics.  If they have to pay an extra $10,000 to one in every 10,000 passengers, this comes out to be an additional cost of $1 per passenger, so fares should go up by only one dollar.  But I'm not sure if you understand this...  

[steveboy]

Won't be clicking on you any longer!!   Some people like you fail to understand that because of the sophisticated programs the Airlines have and their ability to overbook flights, they are able to plan their finances based on maximum capacity being utilized.

 

The small number of people who get involuntarily bumped is just part of the airline industry and acceptable in order to offer the low fares that they do.

 

I'm particular about being clicked on. I prefer to click with young Asian boys with gorgeous bodies and friendly smile.

 

The practice of overbooking had little to do in this episode.  It was not an "overbooking". And the more rarely it happens, the more the reason to have consideration to the affected passengers when it does.  And I repeat: a more generous compensation in these cases should not affect the bottom line of the airline.

[ChristianPFC]

Most airlines do this because there are all sorts of fares that can be changed at the last minute for small or no penalty.

 

As far as I see when I book flights, flexible flights are about twice the price of fixed (date and time) flights. And fees for changing date and time of flight are substantial, estimated 10-20% of flight price.

 

There is something wrong (morally) in this scheme of overbooking flights. You just don't treat your customers that way (only in airlines and gogo bars - I'm referring to vinapu's reports on boys reneging on settled deals when something better came along - does this pass without customers boycotting the business).

 

The small number of people who get involuntarily bumped is just part of the airline industry and acceptable in order to offer the low fares that they do.

 

We established above that this lowers prices in low single digit percent range. I would rather pay a few percent more and do away with overbooking and dynamic pricing.

[forky123]

I have no problems with most of the mechanisms they use. A lot of people require the flexibility and I can understand that to provide that, occasionally flights will be overbooked. The problem I have are the mechanisms to find "volunteers" and the lies that are told along the way. Rather than random picks, in reality the people who pay for fixed tickets with no flexibility are paying the cheaper fares and it is these that will be inconvenienced. To me, if you have paid for flexibility then it is you causing these situations and, due to the nature of your ticket you must be happy with different flights. When you book tickets online, you fill out all sorts of crap. How about a section that states whether or not you would be willing to give up your seat for overbooking and how much for? The airline can then simply pick the lowest.

 

This is not what happened here at all though. The airline decided at the last moment that moving its own staff was more important than its customers. They offered minimal compensation and got no volunteers. I would like to know if any of this was done before boarding or was it all after boarding. I would think this is all going to be settled out of court and we are unlikely to discover the truth. United have now set a policy where any staff movement decisions must be at least 1 hour before flights. Personally, other than for illness I think this is still too short.

[firecat69]

Christian,

 

You do not grasp the fact that millions upon millions pf passengers are on flights because they were overbooked and the computer programs correctly predicted the need to allow that over booking .

 

Do away with those programs and raise the fares a few % points would result in millions of empty seats far exceeding the minuscule number of passengers who face either voluntary or forced compensation.

 

Not only would the fares have to be raised but there would be no reason to cancel a flight and receive a refund. Thus buy a ticket 6 months in advance and your money is gone . No way to change or get a refund.

 

Just imagine how popular that would be?

 

I wonder how many times you have been bumped. I would guess never if you were honest.

 

Under your suggestions there would be no reason to look for the lowest fares because they would all be the same . Thus poor Vinapu and many others who search for the lowest fare would no longer have any reason to be elated when they found that bargain fare . Just wait until the day before you want to go and and see what flight has an empty seat that corresponds with your time table.

 

Of course there will be millions of empty seats and millions of passengers with worthless tickets because life intervened and they cannot make their flight and their money is gone.

 

Sound like a plan?

[firecat69]

Also let me know the last time you got a movie ticket, concert ticket, sports ticket, play ticket refunded.

 

Been a long time since I took a train , pretty sure non-refundable . Oh and by the way have been on lots of trains and buses where you had to stand because there were no seats . Not a pleasant way to travel. When is the last time you went to pick up your rental car and they did not have the car you booked.

 

I don't own any airline stock but I have seen fares continue to fall to what I would consider some times ridiculously low prices. I know Vinapu has gotten some fares from Canada to BKK that are almost unbelievable 5 years ago.

 

Those fares exist because of dynamic pricing and I doubt anyone here wants to see that change.

[Dalewood]

United has now said they will never ask seated passengers to give up their seats for transferring crew members.

 

I still can not believe they could not get enough passengers to give up their seats willingly. About 11 years ago I was on a United flight and they announced that they were badly overbooked and had to get some passengers to Chicago to catch their international flight. I volunteered and got a first class flight later that day and two free tickets anywhere in the 48 states. That turned into a free flight cross-country to California with my partner at the time. Unless I am connecting to an overseas flight or catching a cruise ship, I will always volunteer.

[forky123]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39620088 EasyJet not so innocent.

[Alexx]

Well for the sake of accuracy, Firecat, train tickets in Thailand are refundable, so making that comparison wasn't outright wrong. Same with movie tickets within reason (exchange, no refund, same day show only).

 

Otherwise I agree with you, overbooking flights does make sense and you've explained the mechanics very well.

[steveboy]

You do not grasp the fact that millions upon millions pf passengers are on flights because they were overbooked and the computer programs correctly predicted the need to allow that over booking .

 

Do away with those programs and raise the fares a few % points would result in millions of empty seats far exceeding the minuscule number of passengers who face either voluntary or forced compensation.

---

 

No reason to get upset.  When I started this thread I never complained about a shortage of seats for whatever reason like overbooking, but about the way United Airlines deals with this, hopefully not for long.

 

If the airline wants the freedom of the market, it should do it without harm to the other party.  If they want to be protected by a "contract of carriage", so should their clients be protected too. And a simple way to do this is a guarantee to all passengers that if they have a valid ticket for a particular flight they cannot be unilaterally denied to take the flight when the flight is able to take off. (not cancelled by weather or other reasons).  At that optimum level, both sides can be happy.

 

In other words, if the airline has more travelers than seats, it must see that passengers VOLUNTARILY relinquish their place in the plane, and they can do it by whatever system of compensation works best for them. 

 

The number of passengers is high enough (usually over a hundred) that they cannot conspire and exploit the "voluntary" aspect by refusing offers until they are sky high. If the airline does it right it will always get reasonably bids, which will be...  the lowest amounts people are willing to receive for giving up their seat and take a later or alternative flight.

 

So firecat69,  here is the opportunity for the sophisticated programs with complex algorithms to find the optimum level of overbooking:  not too little overbooking leaving too many empty seats  (even if in popular routes they may have passengers on standby to fill them)  and not too high overbooking that makes them pay too much in compensations.

[PeterRS]

here is the opportunity for the sophisticated programs with complex algorithms to find the optimum level of overbooking:  not too little overbooking leaving too many empty seats  (even if in popular routes they may have passengers on standby to fill them)  and not too high overbooking that makes them pay too much in compensations.

I thought thats what the airlines already have! They estimate over booking on specific flights on specific routes based I assume on historical precedence. But then everyone gets screwed when bad weather, computer glitches or technical problems ground flights.

 

I cannot see any possibility of a perfect solution. So the obvious course of action is as Steve suggests. Each airline has an overbooking reserve in its budget and when seats are required its used to hold an auction.

 

Having a maximum limit per passenger bumped seems somewhat crazy especially on the first or last flights of the day when most passengers will probably want to take the flight whatever. So if $1,350 won't do it, probably $2000 will. Another issue with the feeder airlines as Dalewood mentions is connecting international flights. If you fly from Bangkok to Taipei to Chicago and then your connection on to Louisville is overbooked, the chances are youll not give up your booked seat unless the cash + local transport + hotel + meals offer is a good deal higher than for someone who could pick up a hire car with some of his compensation and just drive there.

[ChristianPFC]

I wonder how many times you have been bumped. I would guess never if you were honest.

 

Under your suggestions there would be no reason to look for the lowest fares because they would all be the same . Thus poor Vinapu and many others who search for the lowest fare would no longer have any reason to be elated when they found that bargain fare . Just wait until the day before you want to go and and see what flight has an empty seat that corresponds with your time table.

 

Of course there will be millions of empty seats and millions of passengers with worthless tickets because life intervened and they cannot make their flight and their money is gone.

Never. I haven't even heard of this before this event.

 

This dynamic pricing is to keep people busy. The same for all other memberships schemes I know of. About 10 years ago, I calculated advantages and disadvantages of membership at supermarket or agoda, and came to the conclusion that it inconveniences me more than I gain. (A Farang friend came to the same conclusion and rejects all discount vouchers and similar stuff.) For me, the anger about changing prices is stronger than the joy about a cheap flight.

 

Anyway, this is all just to trick your mind. Sounds like a conspiration theory, but I think most of what happens nowadays is to either anger the public or to make them happy, just to keep them busy to they don't know, leave alone think, about the real problems.

 

I have flown about 200 times in my life (others probably more, share your stories), and never missed a flight or couldn't take it because something more important came up in my life. For this reason, I don't take travel insurance which is usually 10% of the flight. Taking the risk is cheaper for me. Anyway, I would have a system of the shorter before flight you cancel, the lower the refund. Like 1 month 90%, 2 weeks 50%, 1 week 30%.

[vinapu]

 

 

I have flown about 200 times in my life (others probably more, share your stories), and never missed a flight or couldn't take it .......

I was bumped 5 times

 

in Miami by Ladeco / now defunct Chilean airline / ,on my way to Santiago offered immediately flight with another airline with connection through  Guyaquil in Equador which served me well because new , improved formula flight had better arriving time in late instead very early morning . Coupon for 25% next flight went unused.

 

in Warsaw by Lot Polish on my way to Newark, no compensation offered but next day flight promised and  given in a business class

 

in Chicago by Mexicana on way to Mexico city, flight with another airline offered 4 hours later and 200 $ for pain and suffering,  accepted

 

in Lukla , Nepal on way to Kathmandu, no compensation but firm  promise that I will fly the same day and surely 2 hours later I was on my way   

 

in Amsterdam by KLM on way to Vancouver, given another flight with Northwest through Chicago departing 3 hrs later  , inconvenience for people waiting for me in Vancouver because nobody told them why I did not arrive as scheduled and did not even confirm that I was on originally scheduled plane but employee suggested that I may arrive with Northwest as that was practice for overbooked flights on that route.

 

No really not much pain suffered although it was upsetting at the time  

[firecat69]

What this shows , it is beneficial to know what you are entitled to so you can demand they provide.

 

Pretty sure you are entitled to nothing for a 2 hour delay. In the US and Europe pretty sure they have to provide lodging and meals as well as monetary compensation for a 1 day delay.

 

 

Then the monetary compensations are spelled out for anyone who cares to familiarize themselves with the rules.

 

Of course having status with an airline because of frequent travel is the best protection of getting bumped and thus probably why I have never been bumped.

[PeterRS]

in Lukla , Nepal on way to Kathmandu, no compensation but firm  promise that I will fly the same day and surely 2 hours later I was on my way

 

Id love to go there to see Everest. Not sure Id like to be stuck overnight if all the hotels or hostels were full! The landing must have been something very special.

[vinapu]

Id love to go there to see Everest. Not sure Id like to be stuck overnight if all the hotels or hostels were full! The landing must have been something very special.

In Lukla sometimes due to high winds and short runway planes are not arriving / departing for day, it's why there's whole lot of hostels there catering to stranded passengers.

 

Departing passengers are guaranteed flight even if plane doesn't take off as runway ends at chasm. 

[emailbroken]

What this shows , it is beneficial to know what you are entitled to so you can demand they provide.

 

Pretty sure you are entitled to nothing for a 2 hour delay. In the US and Europe pretty sure they have to provide lodging and meals as well as monetary compensation for a 1 day delay.

 

 

Then the monetary compensations are spelled out for anyone who cares to familiarize themselves with the rules.

 

Of course having status with an airline because of frequent travel is the best protection of getting bumped and thus probably why I have never been bumped.

Instead of guess work, here's a table showing the list of EU compensation due for delays.  It only applies on EU (carriers or on flights departing or arriving in the EU. Hopefully it will help someone when they need it. (sorry about the ugly layout).

 

HOW MUCH YOU'RE ENTITLED TO IF YOUR FLIGHT IS DELAYED Delay to your arrival Flight distance Amount of compensation At least three hours Less than 1,500km  €250    Between 1,500km and 3,500km €400   More than 1,500km and within the EU  €400 Three to four hours More than 3,500km, between an EU and non-EU airport  €300 At least four hours More than 3,500km, between an EU and non-EU airport  €600

 

Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/holidays/article-2271213/How-claim-EU-flight-delay-compensation-EC-261-2004.html#ixzz4ehsd88dw 

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[sglad]

I was bummed 5 times

 

 

And you're complaining?  I thought you'd be ecstatic.

[sglad]

Also let me know the last time you got a movie ticket, concert ticket, sports ticket, play ticket refunded.

 

Been a long time since I took a train , pretty sure non-refundable .

 

If I'm not mistaken, you can get your travel date postponed if you arrive within an hour after your train's departure in Thailand or a 50% refund.

 

Same-same with the Malaysian train that departs from Singapore - you can get a 50% refund if you arrive within a certain time from the train's departure.

 

I had an Air Asia flight refunded with a credit shell when I missed a flight because I had chicken pox (it was going round at uni).  Air Asia, being the stingy assholes that they are, of course only gave me a credit shell for the price of the seat and minus all the add-ons like taxes and whatever so what I got was about 50-60% of what I originally paid.  Your medical certificate must clearly state that you're not fit to fly on your travel date.

[firecat69]

Never been on a train in Asia. Europe and USA pretty sure when I bought the tickets it said non refundable but it has been a long time.

[firecat69]

Ok stop referring to them as police. They were not, just security personnel for the airport. They had been told not to wear police jacket because they were not police.

 

As far the Captain , Good chance he was some 26 year old kid trying to build hours and get a job with Big Airline. Which of course is the whole problem , everyone from gate personnel, to flight attendants , to Pilots did not have the experience or training to make sure this sort of thing did not happen.

 

True Dr may not have taken a higher offer but I doubt an offer of the maximum $1350 would not have found a taker.