Hainan Airlines

[Guest abang1961]

Although I am teaching Statistics here in Singapore, I do understand that they are not 100% reliable as it can be skewed to the beneifts of the concerned party.  If there is a need to review the smoking policy in Singapore, there is a high chance that the results will show that more young adults are picking up the habit.  As such, the anti-smoking efforts can be tailored for this TARGET group.

 

As for me living in South East Asia, prices matter more than anything else as most flights within the region is a mere 2 to 3 hours.  I do expect a GRACE period for delay of up to an hour.  So far based on my experience with Air Asia and Tiger Airways, the cap on delays is manageable  What surprised me most was a recent trip to Hong Kong by Scoot Airlines.  The delay was 4 hours and the passengers were only informed of the delay after we cleared all customs and seated in the waiting room.  Imagine the time of arrival becomes the time of departure.   I almost miss the spectacular morning dim-sum at my favourite Chinese restaurant!

 

One more reminder with regards to budget airlines.  Please do not book connecting flights with less than 4 hours separating the arrival and departure.  The reason is obvious - the flight may be delayed and in Air Asia terms, you got to clear immigration and customs and re-enter as a fresh passenger.

 

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[worldatlarge]

Here is how OAG calculates the results;

 

The league is based on approximately 54 million flight records using full-year data from 2016 to showcase the best performers in an expanded range of categories. To qualify for inclusion in the OAG Punctuality League, the OAG schedules database must have data for at least 80% of all scheduled flights operated by an airline or for an airport.

• OAG’s definition of on-time performance (OTP) is a flight that arrives or departs within 14 minutes and 59 seconds (under 15 minutes) of its scheduled arrival/departure time.
• Cancellations are also included.
• The minimum threshold for airports is 2.5m one-way seats. Airports include arriving and departing OTP.

• The minimum threshold for airlines is the Top 200 by annual Available Seat Kilometres (ASKs). Airline OTP is for arrivals only.

• In this report, a ‘record’ is defined as a flight for which we either have a ‘code’, or an actual time of arrival (and departure in the case of airports), and this year includes cancelled services.

OTP data is not included for other categories of flights, such as charter or non-passenger operations.

 

The other thing is that it is easier for Hawaiin Airlines to be on time with 90,490 flights than Delta with just under 1,9 million flights but still get a 84.29% accuracy.

 

You can get an interactive dashboard at; http://www.oag.com/pl-dashboard

 

Overall for both major and low-cost carriers it give this and you see the number of flights for each;.

 

 

[PeterRS]

Am I the only one to wonder why the data includes only 80% of flights? Why not every scheduled flight on the database or even just 95%? A great deal can go wrong with the 380,000 Delta flights not included. To go back to the point I made earlier, if 80% of Cathay Pacific flights are included but the periods during typhoons are excluded presumably CX would appear on that list. Not that it matters other than to the airports and airlines. But it seems an odd way to go about statistical analyis. 

[firecat69]

A great point and i still want to know what arrival time means. Is it touchdown or at gate. Really pretty useless and still think apps are better in telling you past history for specific flights. At least then you can make a decision on a tight connection!

[worldatlarge]

Data is not only on 80%. The analysis is made on the following: OAG must have received data for at least 80% of scheduled flights operated by an airline. In fact, most of it is based on more than 95%. See attached  chart indicating how much coverage the data is based on. (The column got removed when I did the first post. My bad)

 

[PeterRS]

Even with 95% of flights being accounted for, that still leaves a lot unaccounted for. I note you state "OAG must have received data for at least ..." Is it the airlines and airports who select and provide that information? If so how does OAG know it is getting an accurate statistical average and not a deliberately weeded out list?

 

To return to firecat69s point, data based on departure from gates to arrival at gates will be very significantly different from touch down and take off. Since the definition in an earlier posts mentioned departure from gate, presumably it also means arrival at gate. And if that is true then the 14 min 59 sec window probably allows for only a 7 min 29.5 sec delay at each end from push back to arrival at the stand. That really is pretty tight.

 

So a carrier pushing back from a gate at concourse G at BKK 14 minutes 58 sec late but then having to taxi for 15 mins to the south end of the east runway is effectively taking off 30 minutes late. Yet statistically its "on time". Switch to landing. If an aircraft is on time for a scheduled arrival but then air traffic control puts it in a stack because of congestion and it then loses another 10 minutes by being changed from a northerly approach to a southerly approach its arrival is defined as "late" although it is no fault of the airline. 

 

What about New Yorks LGA where aircraft crawl along the taxiway for up to an hour despite the distance being very short. Every airline departing at peak time may leave the gate on time but is liable to be pretty ate arriving.

 

There are just so many variables. At busy airports its far from unusual for another aircraft to be late departing its gate. So the arrival flight is held till that aircraft has pushed back. But the arriving aircraft has been very punctual.

 

Who'd be an analyst?

[firecat69]

And way too many variables.  Many times I have changed planes at Narita and my plane was at gate on time and passengers and baggage load on time and then. 8 passengers are inbound from who knows where and they are late . The 250 passengers on the plane have to wait for those 8 passengers even up to an hour.

 

The reason why is the airline does not have to pay the 250 passengers onboard and waiting for arriving an hour late. But those 8 passengers will cost the airline a lot of money either in hotels and Meals or transport on another airline.

 

Basically when you agree to travel in a silver tube at essentially the same speed as 60 years ago, then you just have to suffer with all the unknowns. In the last 60 years air transportation has not gotten any faster or in most cases more comfortable. It Sucks but unfortunately in most cases better then the alternative !

[vinapu]

Although I am teaching Statistics here in Singapore, I do understand that they are not 100% reliable as it can be skewed to the beneifts of the concerned party. 

so you are not supporting theory that 87.62% of all statistics are made on the spot? LOL

 

 

 

One more reminder with regards to budget airlines.  Please do not book connecting flights with less than 4 hours separating the arrival and departure.  The reason is obvious - the flight may be delayed and in Air Asia terms, you got to clear immigration and customs and re-enter as a fresh passenger.

 

  

not only with budget airlines.

 

If you arrive in USA or Canada you must pick up your luggage and clear an immigration in the first port of entry and then re-enter your connecting flight as fresh passenger so never be short of connecting time if you fly say Singapore - Pittsburgh through Seattle  / just an example , not sure you have direct flight to Seattle /

[vinapu]

So a carrier pushing back from a gate at concourse G at BKK 14 minutes 58 sec late but then having to taxi for 15 mins to the south end of the east runway is effectively taking off 30 minutes late. Yet statistically its "on time". 

then imagine one May 2000 evening at Chicago, KLM flight to Amsterdam is pulling from the gate on the dot and than , due to sudden high wind / or at least this is what we were told  / was waiting  FOUR hours on the tarmac before we took off.

 

 

Basically when you agree to travel in a silver tube at essentially the same speed as 60 years ago, then you just have to suffer with all the unknowns. In the last 60 years air transportation has not gotten any faster or in most cases more comfortable. It Sucks but unfortunately in most cases better then the alternative !

in exchange,  price  of flying relatively to other prices and in nominal went down dramatically 

[steveboy]

And way too many variables.  Many times I have changed planes at Narita and my plane was at gate on time and passengers and baggage load on time and then. 8 passengers are inbound from who knows where and they are late . The 250 passengers on the plane have to wait for those 8 passengers even up to an hour.

 

The reason why is the airline does not have to pay the 250 passengers onboard and waiting for arriving an hour late. But those 8 passengers will cost the airline a lot of money either in hotels and Meals or transport on another airline.

 

One hour wait is worth for the 8 passengers not missing their connection, which could mean to add one day to their travel time. I have been one of these "8 passengers" and I was glad that I could make the connection.  This extra waiting time the plane can often make it up in a long flight.

[steveboy]

Basically when you agree to travel in a silver tube at essentially the same speed as 60 years ago, then you just have to suffer with all the unknowns. In the last 60 years air transportation has not gotten any faster or in most cases more comfortable. It Sucks but unfortunately in most cases better then the alternative !

 

Air transportation is already as fast as practical.  Supersonic transportation has not caught up for some obvious reasons.  If we are frequent fliers we should not complain, since extra resources (in fuel and pollution) are used up to move our pompous asses across oceans and continents, often at ridiculously low prices (compared to other means of transportation)

[PeterRS]

One hour wait is worth for the 8 passengers not missing their connection, which could mean to add one day to their travel time. I have been one of these "8 passengers" and I was glad that I could make the connection.  This extra waiting time the plane can often make it up in a long flight.

Fine if you are one of those 8 passengers. But what about the others who were all on time?

 

I agree there are two situations here. Connecting perhaps from a transpacific flight at Narita to one departing for another Asian city is basically a hub and spoke operation. Not so long ago in the case of US based airlines, the Asian sector started in the late afternoon or early evening and was the last flight of the day with the return being in the morning. Holding that final sector for passengers from a delayed incoming flight was therefore not a major inconvenience for the airline or the rest of the passengers.

 

Now that hub and spoke operation is nothing like before as more partner Asian airlines have taken over the Asian sectors. JAL and ANA for example fly into BKK, drop their passengers and then fly another load overnight back to Japan. So holding a flight at NRT for the 8 delayed passengers has very definite ongoing consequences for an airline working to much tighter schedules.

 

On the subject of delayed passengers on their first flights of a trip, many airlines have a note on all boarding passes that passengers have to be at the gate up to 20 minutes before departure time. Despite this I have been on quite a few flights where passengers are late purely because theyve been doing a bit of shopping, forgotten the time, gone to the wrong gate area...and so on. Yet planes are still held for them. On others, departures have been delayed while the delayed passengers luggage is located and taken off. Both scenarios result in late departures.

 

So I cannot understand why scheduled departure times are not listed everywhere as 15 minutes prior to actual departure time, even on airline websites. Surely this makes sense. At a busy airport and on busy routes, aircraft are allocated departure time slots. Miss the slot on an intercontinental route and you might have to wait on the tarmac for up to an hour before air traffic control can find another slot on the route.

[steveboy]

Fine if you are one of those 8 passengers. But what about the others who were all on time?

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On the subject of delayed passengers on their first flights of a trip, many airlines have a note on all boarding passes that passengers have to be at the gate up to 20 minutes before departure time. Despite this I have been on quite a few flights where passengers are late purely because theyve been doing a bit of shopping, forgotten the time, gone to the wrong gate area...and so on. Yet planes are still held for them. On others, departures have been delayed while the delayed passengers luggage is located and taken off. Both scenarios result in late departures.

 

We were not talking about passengers who arrived late to their departing flight. The airline will not wait much time for them, nor should they (sometime they may do it for a VIP or another special circumstance).

 

But when a late arrival may conflict with the connection to a following flight by a significant number of passengers, and they can delay the departing flight without causing lost connections by passengers later on, they should accept a reasonable delay (like up to one hour). To arrive one hour late at the final destination should not be excessive hardship for travelers coming from far away. 

[vinapu]

. To arrive one hour late at the final destination should not be excessive hardship for travelers coming from far away. 

Problem with most airports is that while they are final destination for some , at the same time they are just connection points for others so chances are being late  inconveniences somebody 

[firecat69]

Just a lot of Bloviation here including me and none of it matters. If the airlines adjusted the boarding times , the passengers would be aware. In fact nothing pisses me off more then boarding time is not adjusted even when the airline knows they will not be boarding on time, Then you wait in a small area with hundreds of passengers and minimal seating .

 

If they were not all terrible at it then I could switch to airlines that are better. Unfortunately they are all terrible at updating passengers with real facts and since their customers are captives, we just have to suffer.

[Guest abang1961]

I must be awarded for punctuality.

Most of the time, I prefer to leave my hotel for the airport at least 3 hours in advance of the flight time.

One hour for the journey and two hours to spare.. sometimes immigration takes a longer time than anticipated.

 

I really dislike those who sashayed into the plane at the last minute.

Imagine the wastage of time from both the airlines and the passengers point of view.

[steveboy]

Problem with most airports is that while they are final destination for some , at the same time they are just connection points for others so chances are being late  inconveniences somebody 

 

It inconveniences somebody?  Oh... this is terrible!

Did you read my whole post?

[steveboy]

Most of the time, I prefer to leave my hotel for the airport at least 3 hours in advance of the flight time.

 

I also like to leave several hours of spare time.  If my travel is going to take 24 hours, what difference two hours make? In the many, many flights I have taken I have never missed one because of being late.  It must be in some German genes where I have this care for punctuality...

[vinapu]

 If my travel is going to take 24 hours, what difference two hours make?

roughly 2 hours

[steveboy]

roughly 2 hours

 

Buy yourself a decent watch, so you don't have to roughly count two hours