Dear Mr farang X

[ChristianPFC]

I would estimate for every 1 Farang who invited a boy, but then changed his mind, there are 100 Thai boys who broke an agreement (I'm still appalled when I think of vinapu's report about the boy he offed from Tawan and who was already dressed and back, and then reneging because a better deal came along.) or simply were late. Below a recent case:

 

[LINE] Chat with JJ
Saved time：2017/01/03 23:03
2016/12/30(Fri)
13:43    Christian    I'm in Bangkok now. Tomorrow to hua hin.
13:45    JJ    You have room in hua Hin???
13:54    Christian    Stay with [farang friend in HH]. Same
like last time we went. [we went 2 days 1 night a year before]
13:55    JJ    Ok good for you
14:03    Christian    Do you want to come?
[message read immediately, but answer only later. That gives a clue:

Any answer other than an immediate and enthusiastic "Yes" is a "No". ]
15:18    JJ    Missed Call
15:24    Christian    write please
16:58    Christian    Cancelled Call
16:58    Christian    Where are you now?
17:01    JJ    Calling Time 2:08
[he can only go with me if his friend can come with us. I joke I want to see his friend, if he is handsome he can come.]
17:15    JJ    [Photo]
17:15    JJ    [Photo]
17:16    Christian    A bit clearer? We can go all three, have to share one big bed.
17:18    JJ    [Photo]
17:18    JJ    I can go with myfriend?
17:19    Christian    Yes
17:19    JJ    Ok
17:19    Christian    I will leave my room 12 tomorrow and take train 13 from hua lampong.
17:20    JJ    Ok
17:20    JJ    Time
18:35    JJ    Time you meet me ??
18:41    Christian    Tomorrow 1230 at hua lampong railway station.
18:58    JJ    Ok
2016/12/31(Sat)
4:46    JJ    Tomorrow I not go with you Na serry kiss
[no explanation given, actually I feel honored that he messaged me well ahead, others just didn't accept calls or did not reply to messages when I tried to reach them]

In this case no harm done, with hindsight it saved me money (I would have paid for all transport and food for both) and I don't have to entertain two boys. From knowing this boys and similar situations with other boys, I already assumed that he will not come, and I would not have waited (going by train, anyway) or called. In fact, the day before I bought one ticket for me at Hua Lampong railway station, and if the boys had come, I would have bought two more immediately before departure.

[vinapu]

I would estimate for every 1 Farang who invited a boy, but then changed his mind, there are 100 Thai boys who broke an agreement (I'm still appalled when I think of vinapu's report about the boy he offed from Tawan and who was already dressed and back, and then reneging because a better deal came along.)

Due to your vast experience no reason to doubt  what you estimate. I can only count my blessings  that it does not happen to me  too often but from time to time it does , mostly cutting time on promised long time off but I had one no-show , again by another Tawan boy.

 

I'm surprised that you remember  that Tawan case from Jun 2015, unfortunately  all accurate. On next trip I even gave him another chance , partially redeemed by performance but he still cut me on time - classic cum / go case. I doubt it will be third try, LOL.

 

On another hand one of their boys named no less then Boy shocked me with being on time on the dot when I was almost late to the room  and on another occasion when he asked to leave room for just 1 hour to deliver something but returned few hours later redeemed himself but not showing any willingness to leave in the morning until I actually asked him to due to other commitments.

[ggobkk]

Reading these last several posts, reminded me of why I never finished my posts about my October visit to Thailand and Laos.  So, let me give the condensed version.  I'd been in Bangkok then went to Chiang Mai, where I had one great massage at Two Brothers, then flew back to Bangkok for one night before going to Vientiane and Luang Prabang.

 

Inspired by Numazu's scheduling / juggling skills, I'd arranged for an meet up with Vinapu's Screwboy twink for a meet up and dinner, then I planned to try and off someone I saw a Jupiter, and finish up by offing Van at the end of his Freshboys stint.  Van and I have been meeting up for a couple of years, so I anticipated he'd jsut do short times (if he was offed) and meet me for an overnight.

 

Well...communications melted down within the first hour back at the hotel.  Mr Screwboys, who had been sending me daiy photos of himself and appendage, was a no show, I texted and "Lined", decided to get some dinner and head off for Jupiter, when I started getting Facebook messages from Van.  Strange he's a WeChat-er.  Needs to see me right away am I back in town yet?  (I'd smudged the fact that I'd be back several hours and boys before seeing him).

 

Gave up on Jupiter, tell Van I'm at the Tarntawan.  He's there in ten minutes with a high stress level and no ID.  His passport and phone have been taken.  The Tarntawan security remembers him from the week before and let's him come up to the room and pours out the story of what happened and asking what he should do as without a passport he can't work and can't leave the country without paying extra.

 

At this point, my phone starts exploding with messages from Mr Screwboys, apologizing, he overslept, he is on his way, he will make all right for me.  Another charming appendage photo.  

 

I say to myself "Self, you have one Vietnamese boy in your room who is distressed and not gong to leave and you;d plan to have him stay the night, so..."  I texted Mr. Screwboys to forget it, too late now.  This brings in another half dozen messages, no more photos, but lots of crying emoji. Van is so caught up in his own drama that he doesn't notice/ignores all my texting nad the phone ringing and not being answered.

 

So...relationship to this thread is the amorphous Thai sense of time, meeting times, that my over organized personality didn't consider, thus Mr. Screwboys was a loss.  

 

Van told me he used a friends phone to FB message me as my WeChat information was on his lost phone and he remembered that I was on FB.  Clever/Resourceful.  I explained to him how to go to his embassy and get an emergency passport, this did not register with him.  Nor, did the need to go to the police and report the loss.  Just a lot of panic in his face.

 

He stayed with me, which confused the morning security guard as there was no passport to return. I gave more advice and doubled my usual overnight compensation - which would give him enough THB to pay the embassy.  
 

I left for six days, excellent days and nights in Luang Prabang - just sightseeing during Buddhist new year.  

 

To tie up the loose ends...Van was waiting for my return to Bangkok, he now had a phone but had done nothing about the embassy.  He asked if I'd go with him as he was apprehensive about going to the embassy and that there would be more respect if I was with him (?).  Ya from SiamRoads helped to lessen the apprehension as he new Van from a visit we'd made to Pattaya a while back.  So, I spent my last full day in Thailand shuttling back and forth to the Vietnamese Embassy, with a stop at the Police Department to make a report (see above), an Embassy return with the Police report, and another embassy stop to pick up the temporary passport.  

 

Note - I was not asked for any THB to help with these adventures, other than to pay for the taxi.  Van spent the late afternoon and evening in making the day end memorable.

 

This probably didn't belong here...but the posts about contacting boys and follow up reminded me of my this and that I'd never finished my report.  I guess I just did.

[1moRussian]

Nice story, Ggobkk, thanx for sharing - it's a ready script for TV episode and unique experience - you didn't plan to visit Vietnamese embassy during that trip, I suppose? And looks like Van was successful in making the day end memorable

[vinapu]

Interesting and bit dramatic story   but don't you feel your vacation time is a bit overloaded with all that phoning, lineing , wechatting and facebooking.

 

Does not leave much time  to smell the roses , whatever they may be.

 

Not trying to be sarcastic or something but  for myself I can't see myself spending so much of vacation times looking at various screens and taking part of conversation with people I can't even look into the eye at the time.

 

I would tell the boy in question be in my room or lobby or in front of hotel at that and that time and if he  won't be showing within 1/2 hr I'd just move on. But perhaps I'm living in a cave.    

[ChristianPFC]

...he now had a phone but had done nothing about the embassy...

 

Thank you for sharing. This says it all.

[Alexx]

In fairness though, if I were an ordinary Vietnamese citizen (not a member of the elite), I would also try my best to avoid any interactions with my country's officialdom. That he wasn't too keen to go to his embassy is quite understandable, so to me it looks as if he was in need of some support. I think ggobkk did a great job!

[farangyai]

This is an interesting post that shares a lot of different experiences and viewpoints. I am glad I read it.  I like that it involves some different and significant cultural and individual differences including:

 

Communication/Language

Sense of Time

Level of Commitment

Honesty

Face

 

I think many Thai are different on these areas just as we are..

 

I know upset some Thai when I use the word "maybe" which for me is a combination of #1 and #3 above.  But that is me.  Maybe someone else would ignore their request or someone else would say Yes and later renege.  I also have to work at it to keep myself aware of #5 and am still sometimes surprised or blindsided by it.

 

On a positive note I have had Thai friends who do a great job of managing  the five areas above, keeping me informed as to time and meeting up for travel. I have have been able to travel both within and outside Thailand with them and find it creates some great memories for both of us. 

[emailbroken]

Reading these last several posts, reminded me of why I never finished my posts about my October visit to Thailand and Laos.  So, let me give the condensed version.  I'd been in Bangkok then went to Chiang Mai, where I had one great massage at Two Brothers, then flew back to Bangkok for one night before going to Vientiane and Luang Prabang.

 

Inspired by Numazu's scheduling / juggling skills, I'd arranged for an meet up with Vinapu's Screwboy twink for a meet up and dinner, then I planned to try and off someone I saw a Jupiter, and finish up by offing Van at the end of his Freshboys stint.  Van and I have been meeting up for a couple of years, so I anticipated he'd jsut do short times (if he was offed) and meet me for an overnight.

 

Well...communications melted down within the first hour back at the hotel.  Mr Screwboys, who had been sending me daiy photos of himself and appendage, was a no show, I texted and "Lined", decided to get some dinner and head off for Jupiter, when I started getting Facebook messages from Van.  Strange he's a WeChat-er.  Needs to see me right away am I back in town yet?  (I'd smudged the fact that I'd be back several hours and boys before seeing him).

 

Gave up on Jupiter, tell Van I'm at the Tarntawan.  He's there in ten minutes with a high stress level and no ID.  His passport and phone have been taken.  The Tarntawan security remembers him from the week before and let's him come up to the room and pours out the story of what happened and asking what he should do as without a passport he can't work and can't leave the country without paying extra.

 

At this point, my phone starts exploding with messages from Mr Screwboys, apologizing, he overslept, he is on his way, he will make all right for me.  Another charming appendage photo.  

 

I say to myself "Self, you have one Vietnamese boy in your room who is distressed and not gong to leave and you;d plan to have him stay the night, so..."  I texted Mr. Screwboys to forget it, too late now.  This brings in another half dozen messages, no more photos, but lots of crying emoji. Van is so caught up in his own drama that he doesn't notice/ignores all my texting nad the phone ringing and not being answered.

 

So...relationship to this thread is the amorphous Thai sense of time, meeting times, that my over organized personality didn't consider, thus Mr. Screwboys was a loss.  

 

Van told me he used a friends phone to FB message me as my WeChat information was on his lost phone and he remembered that I was on FB.  Clever/Resourceful.  I explained to him how to go to his embassy and get an emergency passport, this did not register with him.  Nor, did the need to go to the police and report the loss.  Just a lot of panic in his face.

 

He stayed with me, which confused the morning security guard as there was no passport to return. I gave more advice and doubled my usual overnight compensation - which would give him enough THB to pay the embassy.  

 

I left for six days, excellent days and nights in Luang Prabang - just sightseeing during Buddhist new year.  

 

To tie up the loose ends...Van was waiting for my return to Bangkok, he now had a phone but had done nothing about the embassy.  He asked if I'd go with him as he was apprehensive about going to the embassy and that there would be more respect if I was with him (?).  Ya from SiamRoads helped to lessen the apprehension as he new Van from a visit we'd made to Pattaya a while back.  So, I spent my last full day in Thailand shuttling back and forth to the Vietnamese Embassy, with a stop at the Police Department to make a report (see above), an Embassy return with the Police report, and another embassy stop to pick up the temporary passport.  

 

Note - I was not asked for any THB to help with these adventures, other than to pay for the taxi.  Van spent the late afternoon and evening in making the day end memorable.

 

This probably didn't belong here...but the posts about contacting boys and follow up reminded me of my this and that I'd never finished my report.  I guess I just did.

You know what?  Apart from the extra cash  you gave, it was also nice of you to spend time helping him with the practical stuff.  

[faranglaw]

I have recently met a few very nice Vietnamese guys in a neighborhood I frequent, presumably straight. Friendly guys. Many stories about coming across the border without papers or visas, possibly crossing a river at night or some other way I haven't thought of.

 

My point here is that as much as we farang love to help with the practical stuff, we may be out of our depth in a situation like this. It seems to me your friend should be able to get much more useful help from other Vietnamese immigrants who are also in the legal twilight Zone. No offense intended, as I admire your willingness to spend time supporting him, but I'm curious why your friend hasn't used his contacts with other Vietnamese to try to solve this problem.

[ChristianPFC]

In fairness though, if I were an ordinary Vietnamese citizen (not a member of the elite), I would also try my best to avoid any interactions with my country's officialdom. That he wasn't too keen to go to his embassy is quite understandable, so to me it looks as if he was in need of some support. I think ggobkk did a great job!

 

I have to admit, even going to the German embassy in Bangkok to get a new passport was an unpleasant experience. Vietnamese embassy might be more unpleasant, however it's something you can't avoid, procrastinating makes it only worse.

 

I have recently met a few very nice Vietnamese guys in a neighborhood I frequent, presumably straight. Friendly guys. Many stories about coming across the border without papers or visas, possibly crossing a river at night or some other way I haven't thought of.

 

Vietnam has no border with Thailand, whoever comes in illegally by land has to go through Cambodia or Lao, which increases the risk. I assume all Vietnamese come by air and have permission to stay in Thailand, but work illegally. Whereas I know one Burmese who is doesn't have a passport at all, is here without permission and works on top of that, and once had to pay 4000 Baht when caught by police (but is back already).

[Alexx]

Many stories about coming across the border without papers or visas, possibly crossing a river at night or some other way I haven't thought of.

They might be ethnic Vietnamese from Cambodia, where they are often denied papers. ggobkk's friend had a passport, that he lost. We can only speculate about his visa situation, but I think the scenario that ChristianPFC has described (enter as a tourist, work illegally) is the more likely one.

[Guest]

For someone who actually wants to do so, crossing a land border into Thailand must be quite easy.    In the case of Laos, a lot of the border is just river and there are a lot of boats around.   I have no idea if the land border to Cambodia is secure, but I doubt it has a Donald Trump wall. 

 

The more relevant question, is why do that instead of getting passport stamps & border runs ?

 

Also, I notice some of the people from Cambodia not have the pink "Non Thai Resident ID Cards".   Some google research shows these are legitimate & it seems you need a passport to get one in the first place.    I'm not quite sure what advantages they offer.

What I do know, is passports are vastly superior as ID documents, as they have large clear photos, whilst the pictures on Thai IDs are usually small & fuzzy enough to leave more doubt about who the card belongs to.   

[ggobkk]

They might be ethnic Vietnamese from Cambodia, where they are often denied papers. ggobkk's friend had a passport, that he lost. We can only speculate about his visa situation, but I think the scenario that ChristianPFC has described (enter as a tourist, work illegally) is the more likely one.

 Correct - he entered as a tourist, 

[Alexx]

For someone who actually wants to do so, crossing a land border into Thailand must be quite easy

Sure, but it doesn't end there. Traveling from (or to) border areas, there's a high chance to encounter police and military checkpoints. At the very least that would mean a payment is due, otherwise arrest and deportation. Officials have quite some leverage to extract money, because illegal entry can mean two years in prison in case someone is charged and convicted.

 

So, no, I wouldn't recommend that to people I consider my friends.

[faranglaw]

There seems to be no one size fits all here. I don't think that Laos is much of a barrier if someone from Vietnam wants to get to Thailand. Some come on tourist visas, some on no visas, some cross the river in the dead of night, some pay bribes, some do all or none of the above. I was only wondering why a Vietnamese national stuck in this difficult situation would come for advice to one of us, rather than to friends on the Vietnamese community.

 

The Vietnamese guys I met would shrug off the threat of bribes or jail time if caught. They gain too much financially by being here. Some of them said they had children and families back in Vietnam that they are supporting. We all know this, of course.

 

It's a very rough world and we only see the smallest sliver of it. I have mentioned this before, but my Western sense that there is justice and fairness in the world, that the authorities will somehow fix a problem, was knocked out of me forever when a boy I knew, an immigrant from Myanmar, was murdered, and the Thai police allowed his (farang) murderer to go free. At about the same time, those two British nationals were killed on the beach, and the full force of the state came down on two immigrants from Myanmar who were probably innocent. In this world, I would hesitate to recommend that a possibly illegal immigrant go to the authorities. I would instead recommend they go to their trusted community, if they have one, for advice.

 

But I also know that many of you veterans know more about this than I do, and may have a legitimate, and different, opinion.

[ChristianPFC]

Traveling from (or to) border areas, there's a high chance to encounter police and military checkpoints. At the very least that would mean a payment is due, otherwise arrest and deportation. Officials have quite some leverage to extract money, because illegal entry can mean two years in prison in case someone is charged and convicted..

 

Indeed, getting from Aranyaprathet to Bangkok in 2014, there were three different uniformed authorities (forgot to look closely what exactly; immigration police, army, railway police?) checking documents of people at the railway station and on the train. Two weeks ago, getting in and out of Mae Sot, there was a check in each direction. Anyone traveling without papers would have to get at least 10 km away from the border to be safe.

 

Here is a border crossing that does not require any documents:

 

 

I think the situation is simple: someone who enters illegally, has to get out illegally (but what to do when caught? Just pay the bribe and be released into illegal stay in Thailand); someone who comes on a visa and loses his passport has to get documents from his embassy.

[GWMinUS]

I have also mellowed as I turned older, but I cannot apply the same logic as you do since I am a top...

 

So Steveboy, maybe it is time to stop smelling the boy's roses and let him smell yours??

Plenty for things an older man can do...

[steveboy]

So Steveboy, maybe it is time to stop smelling the boy's roses and let him smell yours??

Plenty for things an older man can do...

 

Si el vigore va bene ...avanti con el Pene,

si el vigore mengua....avanti con la lengua

y si el vigore va nulo ...avanti con el culo.

 

This will have to wait.  Vigor endangered but still not dead

[sglad]

I think the situation is simple: someone who enters illegally, has to get out illegally (but what to do when caught? Just pay the bribe and be released into illegal stay in Thailand); someone who comes on a visa and loses his passport has to get documents from his embassy.

 

I don't know how far this is true but one of the boys I play football with is Shan (Tai-Yai) and he says those who have come into the country illegally (or came in legally but overstayed) can leave the country with the help of contacts from within the immigration police itself.  They pay between 2,000B and 5,000B per person to ride in this contact's car which gets waived on at checkpoints right until they reach Tachileik on the other side.

[GWMinUS]

Makes sense...

Money always trumps legal requirements.

 

OH Did I say "trumps"??

Even more reason to disregard any legal requirements...