Bangkok/Pattaya June-July 2016 Trip Report: To Butterfly or not to Butterfly

[vinapu]

 

 And I doubt he will be the last. Not by a longshot. 

for us, listeners , it sounds promising

 

I'm sad your story in winding up but I know  you are cooking another trip soon

[Guest abang1961]

Song dedication to (almost all) farangs..

Yes that feeling of "torn between 2 lovers"...

 

 

[firecat69]

I made it plain that I love your storytelling and appreciate the way you treat the boys.

 

However the story that CB tells you about Thai boys being bad with scams etc like broken phones is patently ridiculous.

 

In the last 15 years I have seen hundreds maybe even thousands of Thai Boys.  I have run into 1 thief.  

 

Have I had boys tell me sad stories in order to get more money. Yes but still a very small percentage.

 

There are a number who try to get a little extra for taxi and this usually happens in BKK and almost never in Pattaya.

 

CB would naturally love to divorce you from Thai Boys which of course limits his competition.

 

Somehow I think you probably understand this?

[bucknaway]

Just because something has not happened to you or I does not make it ridiculous. Just take the warning and file it away for future reference should you need it.

 

I was lucky to chat with a Thai guy on yahoo messenger before I came to thailand. He warned me about the guys telling me they loved me, about the taxi cheats. About the bar cheats along with other ripoffs. I didn't experience all of them on my first few trips but I did end up experiencing them.

 

I had to smile about the phone scam. I didn't know it was a scam and I remember a guy leaving his phone on the edge of the bed and pulling me to him. I was aware of the phone and stopped to move it to the nightstand and plug it into my charger. That's when he told me phone no good. I didn't give it a second thought.

 

I'll never be upset by too much information.

[firecat69]

Information is valuable but more valuable when it is presented by someone who does not have an axe to grind and has enough experience to understand what is rare and what is endemic. You must be capable of balancing the information especially from where it comes from.

 

Perfect example is in another thread about people not relying on Trip Advisor. I have posted many reviews on Trip Advisor yet I understand that some reviews may be from people who never stayed at that Hotel.  So  Booking.com does not allow a review until you have checked out and paid the bill. So I read both of them and the funny thing is overall there is really no difference in the overall favorability of the Hotel

 

 

 

Taxi cheats etc is the same all over the world . Meaningless information. I have had a few taxi cheats in BKK but as a % of my total  taxi experiences it does not color my overall feeling about taxi drivers. There have been people here and other places that have tried to make it sound like that all BKK Taxi drivers are cheats.  They are not. I'll take BKK taxi drivers over Budapest, Prague, Warsaw, Paris , Madrid etc etc etc.

 

When someone either a customer or a competitor brings up that Thai Boys are scammers , people who have enough real experience to know that is not true need to speak up.

 

Otherwise the first time visitor who comes here looking for information before his first visit gets the wrong idea in the back of his head.

 

Most visitors with many visits will experience a taxi cheat , a boy trying to get or scam money , a bar that will try to pad the bill etc etc etc. The important point is that happens everywhere in the world and Thailand is no different then anywhere in the world. 

 

And when someone with limited experience or with an axe to grind posts something that a member who has much more experience knows is not true then it is incumbent upon that member to speak up.

 

Otherwise someone with 1 or maybe no trips to Thailand can post erroneous information and it may be believed.

[traveller123]

I think we should remember that Numazu is posting for our enjoyment his experiances on his trips to Thailand ( let me add my thanks to the many he has already received).

The great thing for any first time visitor to Thailand reading this forum is there are many many postings about the good times with really nice guys here. Numazus postings are perhaps one of the best examples, one negative warning from a guy set against some amazing reports about other guys.

Scams happen everywhere we all know that, in any group of people there will be some bad guys amongst the good guys.The phone scam sounds entirely plausible and is worth repeating not as a turn off for visiting Thailand but as a warning it could happen anywhere in the world.

[firecat69]

I agree with everything you said about Numazu , but it is important to point out Numazu did not observe any scam but merely repeated a possible scam from CB who has every reason for Numazu not to trust Thai Boys.

 

People who search for and worry about scams are much more unlikely to enjoy their travel experience. 

 

There needs to be a balance between supposed scams and the inmate honesty of most Thai people. 

 

I have encountered one thief in hundreds of visits and 2 1/2 years of residence.  Balance that against multiple times maids in Hotels returned small amounts of money left in my shorts turned in to be laundered.

[ggobkk]

Moving away from the topic of foisting a scam or scams on us "unsuspecting" visitors, I want to express my appreciation to Numazu for sharing his trip diary with us and drawing us into his balancing of relationships and experiences.  Thanks!

[numazu]

I can delve into it deeper later when I am off work, but I am a little bit surprised by some of the reaction to the post. Here I thought the post was a (final) love letter to the three great boys I came across that day (two Thais and a Khmer), a 24-paragraph ode to how amazing this place is, and how fortunate I am to get to come here. Instead the one paragraph I have about something that didn't even happen to me got the attention. It even spawned a spin off post. What have I wrought?

 

Scams happen all over, including here back home, the supposed richest country in the world. Being aware of it and sharing it to a willing audience does not mean a blanket judgement on the whole people. I don't tell my friends that all French people are scam artists just because my BF got scammed on the Champs-Elysees in broad daylight, but that anecdote I do tell them so they can make informed decisions when they find themselves in Paris.

 

I always choose to focus on the goodness in all people, because the alternative just sucks. Apologies if you think me sharing one anecdote showed that Thai people are bad. I think my diary and experiences have proven just the exact opposite. I fucking love this place!

[Guest]

Being aware of it and sharing it to a willing audience does not mean a blanket judgement on the whole people. I don't tell my friends that all French people are scam artists just because my BF got scammed on the Champs-Elysees in broad daylight, but that anecdote I do tell them so they can make informed decisions when they find themselves in Paris.

Your attitude is completely right. No one implies an entire race is dishonest due to a couple of scams. Except, perhaps for a few irrational board members.

 

The people who ARE dishonest are the scammers, who may be of any nationality. Sharing the information about scams is the correct approach.

 

Also, thank you for your excellent trip reports.

[bucknaway]

I'm glad your not arguing about the facts of your post. Years ago I posted about a frozen beer in a bar, not thinking much about it. When I came back to the thread I found a debate in full swing. I was even called a liar. The board owner attached me and then locked the thread and sent me a pm warning not to comment further.....

 

I appreciate your posts where you allow us a glimpse into moments of your life and I hope you continue to share as you have in this thread.

[firecat69]

The story you recount I would guess never actually happened on this Board as your post suggests.

[bucknaway]

Just a side note... in Saudi Arabia when you speak of pigs it has to be in a derogatory way. You just can't say "I saw a pig," you would have to say something like "I saw a dirty pig!"

 

I hope we don't have to justify statements made to us, by others, in our reports.

 

I'd hate to see reports that are written as if they were written by a Philadelphia lawyer.

[bucknaway]

The story you recount I would guess never actually happened on this Board as your post suggests.

No, not this board.

[captainmick]

I made it plain that I love your storytelling and appreciate the way you treat the boys.

 

However the story that CB tells you about Thai boys being bad with scams etc like broken phones is patently ridiculous.

 

In the last 15 years I have seen hundreds maybe even thousands of Thai Boys.  I have run into 1 thief.  

 

Have I had boys tell me sad stories in order to get more money. Yes but still a very small percentage.

 

There are a number who try to get a little extra for taxi and this usually happens in BKK and almost never in Pattaya.

 

CB would naturally love to divorce you from Thai Boys which of course limits his competition.

 

Somehow I think you probably understand this?

Firecat - Here in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland we have an expression "Can't see the wood for the trees". Over time and reading your posts, I have come to realise that you can't see the wood for the trees. Numazu has contributed the most excellent detailed field reports which are entertaining the read and most useful to followers of this board. In the past you have also contributed some good information. However it seems wholly ridiculous for you take issue with Numazu for reporting what he was told about a scam involving mobile phones. Why on earth are you criticising him for passing on what he was told. It is surely helpful for other members who are now alert to this possibility and can take action to prevent being scammed. You are right it will be a small minority's, but still useful for us to be aware of the possibility.

 

I enjoy reading your field reports too - but please don't pick petty holes in other contributors reports. Otherwise, at the end of the day, board members will lose respect for you.

 

An apology to Numazu would not go amiss and would reestablish your previous credibility as a valued member and contributor to this board.

[numazu]

Answering some Day 17.4 stuff:

Ha! Good point, as I would have assumed that a moral compass is not something that is nurtured at Thai colleges, of all places... 

 

LOL. Was that alluding to something nefarious that goes on at Thai colleges? Please do tell. 

 

 

I guess my point is they would always just prefer the money. When I was working myself, it isn't that I didn't appreciate going to a very expensive steak dinner in Europe. It is the fact I looked at how much money it cost and thought why can't I have it? The Thai boys are simpply doing this on a smaller scale. It can be frustrating for a boy to see a customer "waste" so much money on things when his rent will be due in a week. 

 

...

 

By all means give whatever you want to but don't think that you somehow know what the best thing for that person is. If I am wrong test the theory and ask personally what they want. The rent money or new shoes? 

 

I have often convoluted conversations with CB and DTG about what extra things we can do other than just staying at the condo or eating at a restaurant. We get into conversations about doing some travel outside Bangkok, and then we think about going to Chiang Mai or Phuket, and then it turns into going to Singapore or Japan, and then we think about Universal Studios or Disneyland. And then they stop and think what they are going to say next and they stop. And then tell me (1) forget about it, (2) its a lot of money and (3) they'd rather have the money. It's obvious that they want to all these awesome things, and I would love to give it to them, but they become practical about it and we just don't do it. 

 

Yet they are being sold for a fraction of the price. There is no Thai boy that could tell it was not original and who knows it may be.

 

CB can spot a fake a mile away. Don't ask me how.

 

My advice is , if we want spend money on the boy - increase his tip. If we buy him expensive stuff or treat him to  a expensive dinners as somebody above sensible noticed - if fact we are spending this money on ourselves. I don't mean to offend anybody and my apologies if it sounded harsh but  we want him to look good or have a company for a dinner we fancy.

 

Totally agreed. We buy him clothes / watch / iPhone because WE want him to have those. I think they know it too so they just let us indulge our little self satisfaction. They consider it as Tam bun -ทำบุญ and not as a gift. We think we are doing him a favour but in fact he is offering an opportunity to make us feel better about ourselves by spending money on him.

 

Yes, this is the point for me. I am ultimately spending money on myself, and it makes me feel good spending money on him. It makes me feel good that my boys are well-fed and looking good. 

 

7000BHT for a pair of jeans is just crazy. I wonder if the pair of jeans could later be returned to the shop in exchange for money. That would be a very big tip for the boy.

 

 

yes this is common. 

 

Good point, in brand name stores you can often do that. If the boy himself has the receipt, it would be somewhat suspicious to ask for it. Well, at least I would find it suspicious.

 

I always give them the receipt with the purchase. I want them to have the choice of exchanging the clothing item if they feel they need something else. Not sure if you can get cash for a purchase made by my credit card. But if they can and they return the item and get cash for it, I don't care. It's their gift. If they keep it forever, return it for cash, sell it to a friend, or give it away to a family member, it doesn't matter to me. They got some use for it, and it made me feel good in the moment. They've already paid me back through companionship and amazing sex, so I shouldn't complain about what they do.

 

I am not nice but I admit I could not say no when a bar boy wanted a pair of jeans -7,000 Bhat at a shop in Siam Paragon.
(sigh) I didn't him to lose face in front of a cute shop assistant.

 

 

Holy fuck this is a lot of money. Its like offing 5-7 Pattaya boys.

[firecat69]

Possibly you need to learn how to read carefully???  This is just one of my posts praising Numazu for his storytelling and generosity.  My comments were about CB trying to color Thai boys as dishonest and like another thread scammers. This is not my experience nor do I find the experience of any Gay Poster here.  There has not been one criticism by me directed at Numazu.  Please read carefully below and then find one sentence directed at Numazu that I should apologize for.????????

 

"I made it plain that I love your storytelling and appreciate the way you treat the boys.

 

However the story that CB tells you about Thai boys being bad with scams etc like broken phones is patently ridiculous.

 

In the last 15 years I have seen hundreds maybe even thousands of Thai Boys.  I have run into 1 thief.  

 

Have I had boys tell me sad stories in order to get more money. Yes but still a very small percentage.

 

There are a number who try to get a little extra for taxi and this usually happens in BKK and almost never in Pattaya.

 

CB would naturally love to divorce you from Thai Boys which of course limits his competition.

 

Somehow I think you probably understand this?"

[Guest Marktan86]

Hi Numazu sorry are u able to receive my PM?

[Jasper]

Hi ct2005, ryanasia, Alexx,

 

You guys have good imagination!

I never thought about the boy could return the jeans to the shop for refund. Haha

As with Numazu, I always give the receipts to boy and I always pay cash. So he could have done that easily.

But in this case, after he tried it on, he continued to wear them for couple of days. So I don't think he wanted cash that desperate.

[Jasper]

Holy fuck this is a lot of money. Its like offing 5-7 Pattaya boys.

LOL You automatically convert 7,000 baht into numbers of offing boys. I often do that too. I spend 100USD at a shop and wonder I could have offed a bar boy long time.

It's our occupational hazard I guess.

[vinapu]

 I spend 100USD at a shop and wonder I could have offed a bar boy long time.

It's our occupational hazard I guess.

me too so most likely you are correct about said hazard

[Guest ryanasia]

Answering some Day 17.4 stuff:

 

LOL. Was that alluding to something nefarious that goes on at Thai colleges? Please do tell. 

 

 

 

I have often convoluted conversations with CB and DTG about what extra things we can do other than just staying at the condo or eating at a restaurant. We get into conversations about doing some travel outside Bangkok, and then we think about going to Chiang Mai or Phuket, and then it turns into going to Singapore or Japan, and then we think about Universal Studios or Disneyland. And then they stop and think what they are going to say next and they stop. And then tell me (1) forget about it, (2) its a lot of money and (3) they'd rather have the money. It's obvious that they want to all these awesome things, and I would love to give it to them, but they become practical about it and we just don't do it. 

 

 

CB can spot a fake a mile away. Don't ask me how.

 

 

 

Yes, this is the point for me. I am ultimately spending money on myself, and it makes me feel good spending money on him. It makes me feel good that my boys are well-fed and looking good. 

 

 

 

 

 

I always give them the receipt with the purchase. I want them to have the choice of exchanging the clothing item if they feel they need something else. Not sure if you can get cash for a purchase made by my credit card. But if they can and they return the item and get cash for it, I don't care. It's their gift. If they keep it forever, return it for cash, sell it to a friend, or give it away to a family member, it doesn't matter to me. They got some use for it, and it made me feel good in the moment. They've already paid me back through companionship and amazing sex, so I shouldn't complain about what they do.

 

 

 

Holy fuck this is a lot of money. Its like offing 5-7 Pattaya boys.

 

Thanks for your well thought out response. 

[Vessey]

Whew!, what a great ride this TR has been,

 

I came to it late, yesterday and read the whole thing in 24 hrs.

 

Your writing is engaging, humorous, captivating and above all honest, making this one of the best TR I have read on any forum.

 

I so empathize with your constant dilemma of wanting to butterfly and at the same time enjoying your developing relationships with your favorite guys. It is a(n overall) happy dilemma that I too face on my holidays to Pattaya. I sometimes wish I could split my heart into a number of pieces to share out amongst my regular bar fines.

 

You come across as a kind, good hearted man with a generous spirit (I suspect your daily budget is somewhat higher than mine) and as a consequence you leave Thailand with a bulging bagful of happy memories. 

 

Sounds like the perfect holiday to me!

 

I am two weeks away from my next trip and your TR has gotten me all fired-up. Thank you!

[Guest]

Possibly you need to learn how to read carefully???

I suggest you also need to learn how to read carefully, interpret what you read properly & not attack the one piece of the trip report which you don't like.

Particularly when it is 100% factual, correct and adds to the report.

 

Furthermore, it is unwise to interpret a report on one scam as an attack on the integrity of Thai society.

[firecat69]

Unbelievable!  Attack??? I pointed out that CB denigrating Thai boys as being dishonest and using an example such as putting a worthless phone on the edge of a desk so it could be knocked off and damaged was just plain not true.

 

First Thai boys are not in general dishonest and this invention of a scheme that Thai boys use , not a single person has said that they have experienced this fraud.

 

Next it is time for some members to remember as posters they represent a tiny minority of the visitors to this site. At any one time there are 10-15 x as many readers of this site as there are members. Not only that but of the members , it is even a smaller subset that actually post.

 

That said I consider it important that when a comment is made about the dishonesty of Thai Boys , that someone clarifies the veracity of the comment.It makes no difference in what form the comment was made. People who have never visited should not be made to think things about Thailand that are not true.

 

That is all I did.  I don't know how many posts I can make praising Numazu's story telling and just because I choose to point out that CB was wrong does not in any way criticize Numazu.  It is a comment on the assertion of CB .

 

We have a whole another thread here where a member actually tried to make a case that Thailand is the Land of Scams for visitors.  I'm still waiting for those scams to surface.