USA - Terrorist attack at Gay Bar

[brall3]

I do not know where to post this heart breaking news.

 

I just heard on the news that there was a terrorist attack at a Gay bar in the USA, Orlando, Florida. It appears that over 30 people were killed and 50+ injured. The attacker, killed by the police, was a Muslim terrorist.

 

Indeed this is tragic and should remind us that we all should be very vigilant of our surrounding no matter where we are.

 

Let's include the victims and their families in our prayers.

[Smiles]

Latest toll (at 10 am pacific time) is 50 dead with 57 in hospital. Deaths will rise above 50 I'm sure as the words from the hospitals is "...some in critical condition ..."

[steveboy]

I think we all share the same urgency to know more about this episode, to be able to place it in our minds after the initial shock. How trivial are now the peaceful thoughts we had before learning of this abomination.

[biguyby]

My thoughts are for the families and friends of the people who lost their lives and those who were injured in this horrific and barbaric attack.

[jfarmer017]

If anyone is interested in making a donation to the victims fund, a page has been setup by Equality Florida. You can follow the link below if you are interested.

 

https://www.gofundme.com/PulseVictimsFund

[Londoner]

 Buddhists massacre Rohingya and Tamils though....and when it comes to violence, Christianity and Judaism are also used to justify violence. Homophobia is rife in all the major religions of the world.

[witty]

A true Muslim or Jew doesn't kill another person/life either.

So what's so special about being a Buddhist?

[Londoner]

 Just because a religion is non-violent, it doesn't mean that its followers behave in that way. 

And not just religious people;  there's the secularists like Stalin and Pol Pot.... also pretty adept at killing non-believers.

[biguyby]

Here we go again:

 

Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around ... and PLEASE don't try to shove it down my throat.

[witty]

+1

[Guest]

Religion is regularly rammed down our throats. I had enough at school to last me a thousand years and the BBC have a terrible pro - religion bias.

Religion has an evil influence on society, leading to segregation & violence. Some religions are worse than others & should have no place in an educated civilised society.

[Londoner]

I really don't wish to continue this on a board that I enjoy reading for pleasure  but I can't let that sort of remark pass.

It is a simplification of much more complex situation. The first khatoeys I ever saw were the  trans dancers in Marrakesh, Morocco,who have been clanging their percussion instruments  for generations untroubled in the Square.

And it was the same country that UK and US gays visited in the 50s and 60s , decades before Thailand was available, to live a gay life, as tourists and residents.

It was the Sufi Iranian poets of the 12th and 13th century who were writing erotic love poetry to male lovers, when, here in Europe, such poets would have been burnt. And it was in Bagdad, a century later , that gay life- not  that visible- flourished.

Yes, things have changed with the advent of fundamentalism but you need to ask why. It's not the Koran that changed but the impact of our western colonialism on societies in the MiIddle East which led to a reaction. And religious fundamentalism happened in other ways in other societies for different reasons....look at the US evangelicals, the Jewish Zionists, the anti-Rohingya Buddhists and Morsi's Hindus in India.,

That's my last word on this subject on this board....as it happens my mind is on where to eat tonight here in Pattaya.

[vinapu]

.as it happens my mind is on where to eat tonight here in Pattaya.

I'd  go to a restaurant

[witty]

Morsi is getting the blame in Egypt, and now he's responsible for India.

I think Modi is having a chuckle :-)

[KhorTose]

Good bye Londoner.  There are so many errors in your good bye letter that I could correct you on..  Suffice it to say, you severely edit history.  Yes, these poets existed, gay life in Morocco, etc. blah blah blah.  Not the point.  What their faith teaches is the point, and how gays exist in Middle East now, and even during Morocco times, is the point.  Shall we say the ultimate closet.  Step out of the private area and you are actually  dead.  Nor did the West start this round of Arab Terrorism.  The oldest existing terrorist organization in the Middle East is the Muslim Brotherhood, from whom we got Al Qaeda, and ISIS.  Sorry L, it started in 1928 in response to a secular constitution adopted by the Egyptian (non European) government.

[t0oL1]

I want to know what happened as the shooter was "confronted" by an armed off duty policeman outside the club working "security."

[jfarmer017]

I want to know what happened as the shooter was "confronted" by an armed off duty policeman outside the club working "security."

 

The officer was actually working security inside the club. He engaged in gunfire with the assailant but was essentially outgunned and forced to fall back, lest he get killed himself. Local police were on the scene quickly, but it was initially being handled as a hostage situation. It was only when it became clear that the assailant was simply indiscriminately killing people, officers moved in and eventually killed him. The entire ordeal actually took place over a three-hour period. This assailant was somewhat atypical in that mass shooters typically go on a short-term spree killing and then simply turn the gun on themselves when police arrived. 

[jfarmer017]

I try to refrain from socio-political debates on forums that are not expressly political in their outlook, but I do feel compelled to add my two cents here. 

 

Yes, Judeo-Chrisianity and Islam often include condemnation of gays. The big difference is that thinks to the scientific revolution by people like Copernicus, Newton, and Darwin and a post-Enlightenment secularism, Christianity has largely been whipped into minding its manners. Christianity arises from a radical apocalyptic preacher in the form of Jesus Christ who believed that the return of god was imminent. Hence his messages about giving away earthly possession, abandoning your family to preach this imminent return, and general disregard for the material world (e.g. render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto god what is god's). The Quran, on the other hand, is not simply a message of spiritual redemption but a template for how to build and run a society. It answers numerous political questions that are simply left unaddressed in the Bible. Jesus didn't concern himself with politics because he thought the end of the world was near. Mohammad, on the other hand, was attempting to build a civilization form the ground up. Islam also split into factions relatively early in its history, compared to the Church, which existed for a millennia and a half before its reformation. The nature of Islam itself simply does not make it amenable to building a society of secular pluralism.

[witty]

Three cheers for your concise and precise comments above jfarmer017.

[steveboy]

IYes, Judeo-Chrisianity and Islam often include condemnation of gays. The big difference is that thinks to the scientific revolution by people like Copernicus, Newton, and Darwin and a post-Enlightenment secularism, Christianity has largely been whipped into minding its manners. 

 

Yes, and it seems that Christianity has still a chance to mind its manners further in this progressive era and shed that stupid condemnation of gays. Maybe Pope Francis will start it.  But Islam proves itself to be a lost cause.  Some even have the nerve to call it "a religion of peace".

[ChristianPFC]

Islam also split into factions relatively early in its history, compared to the Church, which existed for a millennia and a half before its reformation.

Good post, but the first significant split of Christianity took place already in 1054 to split into Catholic Churches and Eastern Orthodox.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity

[jfarmer017]

Good post, but the first significant split of Christianity took place already in 1054 to split into Catholic Churches and Eastern Orthodox.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity

 

I don't want to devolve into pedantry, and that is certainly a valid point to make. But from my (admittedly finite) knowledge of history, the East-West schism was driven primarily by political and cultural forces than by profound theological disagreement, though that was an element. The western church suffered a papal schism itself in the late 14th century, though it was resolved without splitting the Church itself. The Protestant Reformation, by contrast, was a profoundly theological schism. I guess technically speaking, Christianity in its very early history was quite fractured, which itself was the impetus for the Council of Nicea, Christianity's first attempt to obtain consensus on universal doctrine. And in its very earliest history, Christianity itself was just a faction of Judaism. 

[KhorTose]

I don't want to devolve into pedantry, and that is certainly a valid point to make. But from my (admittedly finite) knowledge of history, the East-West schism was driven primarily by political and cultural forces than by profound theological disagreement, though that was an element. The western church suffered a papal schism itself in the late 14th century, though it was resolved without splitting the Church itself. The Protestant Reformation, by contrast, was a profoundly theological schism. I guess technically speaking, Christianity in its very early history was quite fractured, which itself was the impetus for the Council of Nicea, Christianity's first attempt to obtain consensus on universal doctrine. And in its very earliest history, Christianity itself was just a faction of Judaism. 

Have you given consideration to the schism that occurred in the Christian Church between the Arians and the Trinatarians from the 3td to the 6th century?  Even more fundamental and still alive and well today today, with Arian doctrine Churches like the Mormans.

[jfarmer017]

Have you given consideration to the schism that occurred in the Christian Church between the Arians and the Trinatarians from the 3td to the 6th century?  Even more fundamental and still alive and well today today, with Arian doctrine Churches like the Mormans.

 

Well, arianism will widely surprised and virtually stamped out during the medieval period. It did not really resurface as a doctrine with any force until after the Reformation.