Bob Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 From the Bangkok Post today: BANGKOK: -- A Swiss man was arrested for allegedly insulting the monarchy by painting over images of His Majesty the King, police said today. Jufer Oliver Rudolf, 57, was caught Tuesday on surveillance cameras spray painting over portraits of HM the King with black paint at several locations in Chiang Mai, police Lt. Col. Kittiphan Kamwan said. He was detained Wednesday night and faces up to 15 years in jail if convicted, the police said. BangkokPost He apparently claimed he was "drunk" although the cops are investigating to determine if he was hired by some "anti-junta" person or group. Drunk or not, the guy is an idiot and deserves to at least be thrown out of Thailand forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaybutton Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Drunk or sober, the stupidity of it is unbelievable. First, the "lese majeste" laws in Thailand are strictly enforced. Second, in Thailand His Majesty the King is highly revered and deservedly so. He will probably go down in history as one of the greatest kings who ever lived in any country anywhere. It's quite upsetting to see that anyone, especially a foreigner, would come to Thailand and do such a thing, no matter what the reason. This incident is one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard about a foreigner doing. You would think a 57 year old man would have better sense. Too bad caning isn't a punishment in Thailand, as it is in Singapore, because this guy deserves to get his ass kicked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hedda Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 It's stupid for any foreigner to break the laws of the country in which he finds himself, especially where it involves what is viewed by the country as a serious insult to its honored institutions. On the other hand, let's not go off the deep end with the kind of draconian reactions that seem to permeate the comments above. If someone did the same thing to a poster of George Bush or Elizabeth II, who are also heads of state, people might shake their heads in dismay or disgust, but some might quietly cheer the act as one of righteous indignation or protest. But would anyone living outside Thailand suggest that the actors be imprisoned or beaten for exercising what is viewed in most countries as one aspect of free speech and expression ? I think not . . .and rightfully so. Lese majeste is the law of Thailand because it was created by the decree of a former military dictator and like many old or archaic laws, has found a life of its own in the mix of Thai politics. Obviously, it's for the Thais to decide whether to retain it in their laws or constitutions, and for foreigners to obey it as long as it's the law. It is not, however, the equivalent to beatification, among believers or non-believers, no matter who or what it makes unspeakable, nor does its violation connote anything but one individual's foolish disregard of a distinctly Thai taboo, whose legal prosecution would not survive judicial scrutiny in any of the countries most of us farangs hail from. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fountainhall Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 Hedda's reply is just downright - to use his own word - stupid! The fact that spray painting an image of George Bush in the USA would probably earn him a medal nowadays has nothing to do with it. The law is the law, no matter why, how or by whom it was introduced. And whether an act violating a law would survive judicial scrutiny in any other country is completely beside the point. When in Rome, do as . . . etc. or suffer the consequences. Period! Besides, by his illegal act, this idiot has insulted an entire nation of more than 60 million. He deserves what's coming to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Geezer Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 Where in the world is it legal to deface public or private property with spray paint? Where is public drunkenness legal? I can not see any logical defense. Draconian punishment may not be appropriate, but some punishment certainly is. If draconian punishment were imposed, I suspect His Majesty would grant a pardon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RichLB Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 It seems to me Hedda misunderstands the role and meaning of the King in Thailand. He is not the head of state (I don't think), but instead a symbol of the Thai people. While, in the USA, spray painting over a picture of George Bush might raise some eyebrows, burning or defacing the flag (another symbol of nationhood) has been seen as a serious enough offence as to encourage many law makers to consider drafting a Constitutional Ammendment prohibiting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hedda Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 It seems to me Hedda misunderstands the role and meaning of the King in Thailand. He is not the head of state (I don't think), but instead a symbol of the Thai people. Quite wrong. The 1997 Thai Constitution that was abrogated by the junta, and every one before it, clearly provided as follows in its first Chapter: Section 1: Thailand is a unified and indivisible Kingdom. Section 2. Thailand adopts a democratic regime of government with the King as Head of State. The entire purpose of constitutional monarchy is to provide continuity and a sense of national identity with a monarch who is, by definition, the head of state, no matter the current political leader. Thailand is no exception to that concept. Lese Majeste as applied here, however, is more uniquely Thai. Frankly, I am a bit amazed that westerners brought up in the tradition of free speech and expression would find it difficult to differentiate between the need for foreigners to obey the law of the country in which they find themselves, and the need to respectfully question the wisdom of a law that seeks to make criminal, activity that most countries would consider protected speech. In that latter regard, it is quite legal to burn the American flag in the United States as an expression of free speech and protest under the First Amendment. The US Supreme Court has so explicity ruled. No doubt, it would rule precisely that same way if some form of "lese Bush" law prohibiting criticism of the President were passed by some errant US Congress. There are some right wing folks who decide from time to time when it suits their ends, to amend the US constitution to make flag burning criminal. Their efforts thus far have come to naught, even with the support of their current hero, George Bush. Thailand has opted to make certain speech criminal, which is its sovereign right. For all I know, burning the Thai flag may be criminal here too. As a foreigner in country, we must all obey that law while here. That does not mean, however, that we cannot respectfully question the wisdom of laws which prohibit or criminalize express or symbolic free speech. Indeed, his Majesty appeared to do just that in his birthday speech in December, 2005, when he stated that he welcomed criticism. The poster who find these concepts "stupid" would do well to go back and read both his majesty's speech in 2005 and America's First Amendment. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fountainhall Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 There is no 'need' for any foreigners to respectfully question any law in any country, as Hedda suggests. Sure, they may wish to do so - and presumably have some right to do so, but only within the limits of the legal freedoms pertaining in that country. Surely no one can argue that spray painting an image of the King is 'questioning' a law? In almost all countries it is an act of deliberate vandalism rightly punishable in law. Here it is a far greater 'crime' - and all westerners must accept that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aunty Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 RichLB has got it! The King, is the embodiment of Thailand in person, and if he functions in religious matters analogous to the Queen/Kings of England, he may also be the head of the Buddhist faith in Thailand as well. And on top of that, this particular King is also held in enormous regard and affection by the people of Thailand. Hedda doesn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted December 11, 2006 Author Share Posted December 11, 2006 Comparing defacing the King's picture in Thailand with defacing a picture of GB in the USA, while somewhat theoretically logical, totally misses the point. I don't agree with raising anyone to the "god" level but that's what Thailand has done with their King and anyone stupid enough to spray paint photos of the King in Thailand (let alone a 57 year old) deserves a little jail time and/or deportation. Had he been caught by some Thais rather than the police, the dumb f*** might be floating down the Ping River by now. The point of the whole story, to me, wasn't the legality of the act or the wisdom of the tradition. Hedda, you may have a constitutional right to yell the "n" word in Watts but you'd be incredibly stupid to do so (and probably incredibly shit kicked back to Pattaya). I don't personally like the deification of the King but it's neither my business to question the wisdom of the law (hmmm...it is their country) nor to violate it. And it isn't like any other rule or custom in Thailand.....it's the #1 "don't tread on me" custom of the Thai nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaybutton Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 Comparing defacing the King's picture in Thailand with defacing a picture of GB Deface a picture of GB? Now that would be crass . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steve1903 Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 The guy should get a good whipping. I mentioned on another thread that I'm not long back from Egypt and for me the biggest disappointment when visiting all the temples and stuff was the amount of stupid graffiti scrawled onto the stones. All that Davie L Fiona or Mick was 'ere just shows a total lack of respect for a country's culture and heritage. Hang the bastards, hang them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted December 11, 2006 Author Share Posted December 11, 2006 Deface a picture of GB? Now that would be crass . . . Lol.......GB (as in Georgie Bush....not GayButton!). If somebody defaced or erased my face in a picture, it wouldn't be called illegal but, rather, an improvement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lvdkeyes Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 I remember a few years ago when an American guy, who was about 21 or so, was arrested in Singapore for spray painting some 50 cars. He was sentenced to public caning, along with some other form of punishment, which I don't remember. There were a lot of people, in the US at the time, all up in arms about the punishment of caning. I said then, and I still say, good for him. He was a guest in a foreign country and commited a crime and was sentenced to a usual type of punishment in Singapore. The idiot in Chiang Mai deserves whatever punishment is usual for the crime he committed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wowpow Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 Swiss faces 75 yrs in Thai jail for King graffiti BANGKOK (Reuters) - Police are looking to prosecute a Swiss who defaced images of Thai King Bhumibol Adulyadej during a drunken rampage on the monarch's birthday with five separate acts of lese majeste which could land him in jail for up to 75 years. Oliver Rudolf Jufer, 57 and a long-term resident of the northern province of Chiang Mai, was arrested earlier this month after several portraits of King Bhumibol, whom many Thais regards as semi-divine, were daubed in black paint. He has been in jail ever since while police investigated an incident which falls under draconian lese majeste laws that carry a penalty of between three and 15 years in jail for any insult to a royal. "He committed five counts of the crime so he faces five times the penalty," a Chiang Mai police official said. "I'm not sure when he will be prosecuted. It might be the end of this month or in January." The Matichon newspaper said Jufer had confessed to being drunk at the time. Dried paint was found on his fingers and he was caught on security cameras going into a shop which sold a spray can found discarded near one of the images, it added. As is customary in Thai detective work, he had to return to the scene of the crime for a police re-enactment -- but early in the morning to avoid the risk of being lynched by passers-by. The Swiss embassy in Bangkok made no comment, saying it was still trying to obtain information on the case. Matichon was the only Thai newspaper to report the episode after Chiang Mai police asked local journalists to kill their coverage to minimise the disrespect to King Bhumibol, the world's longest-reigning monarch. <a href="java script:winopen('tombstone.cfm?ProfileID=473911','profileview','710','550');">via Lonely Planet Thailand forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaybutton Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 I wonder if those who felt I was wrong about suggesting a caning for this guy still feel the same way, in light of the article Wowpow posted. I don't know about you, but given a choice between a caning or 75 years in prison, I'd say a sore ass would be the better choice. Thailand does not take kindly to this sort of crime and I would guess that also applies to prisoners. Unfortunately for this person, I don't think he'll have to worry about 75 days in prison, much less 75 years, once the other prisoners realize why he's there. My guess is he's in for an experience, to put it as mildly as possible, that few would envy. In any case, in Thailand you do not . . . repeat: do not deliberately insult His Majesty the King. What on earth possessed this man to do such a thing goes beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hedda Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 I wonder if those who felt I was wrong about suggesting a caning for this guy still feel the same way, I think perhaps you know when you have been in a foreign country too long, when you start to think that everything they do makes sense. One is reminded that stealing bread was once a capital offense in many kingdoms of the world. Hunting rabbits in the forests at Versailles was punishable by death. Blasphemy of the Lord used to get you burned at the stake in quite a few places several centuries ago. And Salmon Rushdie had a price put on his head for the same thing just a few years ago by some seriously misguided people. They still cut off your hand, not your head, in The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia for similar offenses. That author in Turkey finally got acquitted after months of abuse for writing a biography that some said insulted a revered leader, Ataturk - who's only been dead for 70 years ! Lest we forget, Shylock also wanted that pound of flesh too for a breach of contract. Crime and punishment are very separate things and the essence of a just and enlightened society is that the punishment must fit the crime. I respect the monarchy as a guest of this country, but I am not prepared to accept the notion that any of the punishments being discussed above are anything short of barbaric. Perhaps Portia can plead the case for mercy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fountainhall Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 I hope Mr Jufer does not consider hiring Hedda as the member of his defence team pleading for mercy! Hedda's stubbornness at accepting the tradition of a country (respect and reverence for the monarchy) but rejecting the legal punishment relating to disrespect, is, to go back to his own word, just plain 'stupid'. Those of us who live here choose to do so not because Thailand is a Shanghri La where everything is wonderful and perfect. Like every country throughout history it's an imperfect society but one where for us the positives certainly outweigh the negatives. As foreigners, we have a different perspective on life because we have experienced other countries and traditions and have had a very different form of education. Most Thais have never been outside Thailand and fully endorse the laws and punishments relating to lese majeste. Who are we as foreigners/guests to say they are wrong? And why, if we happen to agree with them, does that mean we have lost our sense of values?? To equate Thailand with Counter Reformation Europe, Saudi Arabia or Turkey is 'stupid'. Judging from comments on this and other boards, Hedda's views represent an absolute minority. Don't keep bangking your head against a brick wall, Hedda! It's clearly time for you to move on to a just and enlightened country that more fits your values. Try Zimbabwe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hedda Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 ...if we happen to agree with them, does that mean we have lost our sense of values?? On this matter, you bet it does, if you think people should be beaten or sentenced to 75 years in jail for the offense that's been charged. You either don't understand the point I'm making or you just want an excuse to say I'm "stupid." No one's suggested that this is a bad country. Good countries can have bad laws too. Your suggestion that I "move on" to another country if I disgree with lese majeste is adolsecent. I can only assume that you had one of those "America, love it or leave it" license plates too. Suppose the law here was that men caught paying for sex with Thai men should be blinded or castrated. Would you also support that law and punishment as appropriate ? What makes you think that the concept of lese majeste is much different from many laws in Muslim countries today that prohibit anyone from criticizing the Koran or the prophet Mohammed. If you stop to think about it, those laws are not much different from the blaspheny laws of the counter-reformation. Indeed, the term "lese majeste" itself is a relic that originated in ancient Rome, centuries before the reformation, when divinity was claimed by everyone in power. Treating an institution with respect does not mean you lose all perspective as to how to deal with those who violate local taboos, especially when they involve no violence or criminal intent. Shall we all start to stone people for adultery like they do in Nigeria ? Most Nigerians have never left their country either. Maybe if they did, they'd know that enlightened societies don't kill people for having sex with the wrong person. The same thing applies here. Enlightened societies do not beat people or throw away their jail cell keys for 75 years for doing something that's not even illegal in most countries on this planet. Perhaps you throw away your common sense and values at airport immigration. I always carry mine with me. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest luvthai Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 Kick him out of the country and blackball him. It was a crime there but lets not go overboard here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaybutton Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 Despite the fact that Hedda and I disagree on this, if he was a lawyer I would indeed want him as my defense attorney. A good attorney will provide the best possible defense for his client, and I can't think of anyone who could do it better. What some fail to realize is that it's actually possible to disagree with people and still hold the greatest respect for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fountainhall Posted December 24, 2006 Share Posted December 24, 2006 The point I was making is, on the reasonable assumption that Jufer is found guilty, I would not want Hedda (whom I do not know personally ) pleading for mercy. Whatever one thinks of Hedda's views, they would unquestionably just infuriate a court in this country. I entirely agree with Gaybutton that one can disagree with someone's views but still maintain the highest respect him as a person. So, since Hedda feels so strongly on this issue of appropriate punishment, instead of simply airing his views in a gay forum which will have zero influence with the apropriate authorities, I will respect him more for all his valiant efforts to bring his "common sense and values" known to the relevant government departments. I assume he is actively working for the repeal of such laws. Strange I have not read in the media of a farang leading such a movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KhunPA Posted December 24, 2006 Share Posted December 24, 2006 I will respect him more for all his valiant efforts to bring his "common sense and values" known to the relevant government departments. I assume he is actively working for the repeal of such laws. I thought before reading that statement by Fountainhead that Ear Wig was probably the biggest jerk on this board. I was wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hedda Posted December 24, 2006 Share Posted December 24, 2006 Actually. my views on the Middle East and Palestine are even stronger, but I don't plan to fly to Jerusalem to press the flesh with Olmert or Abbas. I also think that George Bush is a total disaster for America, but I have no plans to picket the White House with a sign saying so. No one questions that the Thais have the sovereign right to criminalize conduct that many countries would protect as free speech. As a guest of this country, who enjoys living here with the grace of a visa, I don't consider it my business to press the authorities to change their mind on the subject. I have lived here long enough to know that the Thais do not cotton to foreign advice on matters they consider "Thai." What appalled me in this thread is how some posters here were so willing to see this poor guy hung out to dry for such an offense. If they start locking expats up for that kind of thing, what could come next for something really serious, like a fatal accident. My hope is that, regardless of what the local police may say or do, the highest authorities in Bangkok will realize the public relations disaster that could result from the imposition of some draconian prison sentence on this guy, especially if he apologizes publicly for his actions. The coup has already been received badly in much of the world; they don't need to stir that hot pot with this incident. I'm expecting to see either a quick pardon, no matter what happens in Chiang Mai, or some administrative revocation of his vias and quiet departure from the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fountainhall Posted December 25, 2006 Share Posted December 25, 2006 As an expat living here for a few years, I do not appreciate anyone suggesting I have thrown away my Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
