macaroni21

Tell that to straight men especially in conservative societies. To get pussy, they have to commit to lifelong marriage.

This map should help. https://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog/2023/12/14/map-of-pattayaland-area-december-2023/

@spoon you beat me to it 😂

I am not disputing that. But it is one thing to discuss economic realities dispassionately (however these realities are created), but quite another to gloat about the (I think imagined) imminent collapse of the West.

It isn't meaningful to compare 2024 figures with 2023 when china only reopened to travel in 2023. A better comparison would be against the last full pre-covid year, which is 2019. In the same way, Thailand speaks of the 39million visitors it received in 2019 as the measure of recovery from the pandemic. As I pointed out, if we annualise the 17 million till July 2024, we may see 34 million visitors to china in the full 2024. It is below the pre-covid figure. Perhaps I should have said "shrunk market" rather than "shrinking market" because only time will tell what 2025 brings. Will it grow or shrink further? My understanding too. In any case I have been told by a Shanghai tour guide that the majority of Chinese tourists headed to Europe are in packaged group tours. They are price sensitive and would more likely use Chinese airlines rather than European airlines (also Chinese-speaking cabin crew and Chinese meals on board). So even if outbound Chinese tourism (to Europe) grows strongly in the next couple of years - not likely given the economic doldrums in china - it won't be the European airlines benefitting.

I think the debate so far is missing the main point, albeit that the thread is about Euorpean airlines cutting back on flights to China. This statistic is key, especially if we see it from China's perspective. It is likely that 2024 will end with about 34 million foreign visitors, only 70% of the 49 million the country received in 2019. Lots of small businesses in China catering to foreign visitors must be suffering. Tourism in China is of three broad types: The very biggest, by far is domestic tourism. You go to any attraction and chances are that domestic tourists will outnumber foreigners by a few multiples. This sector currently has its own problems but it is outside the scope of our discussion, The second biggest group, I believe, would be the cross-border "tourists" from countries that adjoin China, such as Vietnam, Myanmar, Mongolia, Kazakhstan and Russia. They come in for a day and rarely go beyond the border town. Many are traders. For the purposes of this discussion (about flights), they're irrelevant. The third group are those who fly in, or maybe cross from HongKong and then travel around other cities. When we are discussing flights from Europe, we're really talking about a segment of a segment. Europeans are a portion of the third group. All the rest (from other Asian countries or America) are irrelevant to this discussion about flights from Europe. Wikipedia has stats from 2019, giving you a sense of the breakdown by country of origin. The first big table there lumps the cross-border visitors with the fly-in visitors; it even includes Hong Kong and Macau. Not helpful, though you can see how big the cross-border numbers are. It's the second table "Foreign arrivals in Beijing" which gives a better sense of the make-up of the fly-in segment of visitors. The numbers themselves refer to Beijing, but it's the proportions that interest us. What is interesting is that, excluding those from Hong Kong, the top four (USA, Japan, South Korean, Taiwan) are NOT from Europe. The top ten in 2019 were: 1. USA 629,000 2. Japan 247,000 3. South Korea 242,000 4. Taiwan 222,000 5. Germany 198,000 6. UK 153,000 7. Australia 141,000 8. Singapore 127,000 9. France 120,000 10. Canada 100,000. The total for these top ten is 2,179,000. Of these, 471,000 (22%) were from Europe. Very roughly then, the issue of discontinued flights affects only about a fifth or a quarter of fly-in tourists. The rest fly in from neighbouring countries such as Japan or across the Pacific, such as USA and Canada. The point is that even as Chinese Airlines are in a position to take nearly 100% market share of the European traffic due to the withdrawal of European Airlines, it does not amount to all that much. They'd still have to compete against Southeast Asian airlines, Japanese and Korean airlines for the much larger segments that do not come from Europe. Above all, 100% market share of a market that is 30% smaller than 2019 - and I think it is significantly more than 30% down, because the cross-border numbers are likely to be holding up, so that means the fly-in numbers must be much lower - is no cause for celebration. The minister or officials in charge of tourism in Beijing must be far more concerned about the drop in total numbers, not about the pick-up in market share in a shrinking market. It's important to see things in perspective.

Famished is not good either. Distracting. What I do is to go to a nearby 7-11 and get an ice-cream. The sugar keeps hunger at bay for a couple of hours. The ice-cream melts into liquid inside you, unlike a bun which has bulk and takes a while to digest. I think @vinapu once mentioned he did the same ice-cream trick.

Both maps have problems. Referring to the second map, I noticed: 1. Scandinavians should be shown as less hairy than other Europeans(as @Keithambrose has already pointed out. 2. China, Mongolia and Korea should be as yellow and smooth as southeast Asia. 3. Japan maybe should be light green i.e. way smoother than the map shows. Hairy Hokkaido is only if one refers to the original Ainu population who are now just a tiny percentage of the current population of Hokkaido who are no different from the rest of Japan. 4. Central Asia - from what I have seen of Uzbeks, Kazakhs and khirgiz, are no hairier than southeast Asians, Chinese and Koreans. However, these places have a significant Russian minority, so it makes the average a bit hairier. 5. Iran should be as black as north Africa and the Levant. 6. Northern India is as hairy as France and Germany (rust red), while southern India only slightly less so, maybe dirty blue-green as currently painted. Of course these are averages. In countries with considerable immigration, the variation within a country can be great.

I have seen this too. I call it the satyr distribution. Look up images of satyrs and you'll see why I refer to it thus. It also happens that satyrs are supposed to have insatiable appetite for sex. 😂

The thing about shows is that the participants have to have talent for dancing, acting, comedic timing and general musicality. Moonlight models are pretty useless in these respects. They know how to pace and pose... and that's about it. I won't have any expectations except to be faced with higher prices.

I'm always amused how easily people are taken in by these online rankings of penis sizes. They're virtually all rubbish. There are serious methodological weaknesses, based on self reports, by self selecting volunteers. No standardized way of measuring. Huge selection bias, huge pride bias. The few (very few) scientific reviews of more controlled studies (still imperfect but better than self reports by self selected volunteers) arrive at an average erect penile length of about 13 to 14 cm, or 5.5 inches. A true 6-incher is already above average, not the normal guy. As for differences by nationality, the best correlation is with average male height in the country. It stands to reason. Taller men need larger shoe sizes; they have longer thumbs, generally speaking. So a country with the tallest men such as Netherlands will probably have the longest and thickest dicks. Countries with shortest men e.g. central American countries, will probably have the smallest. But in any case, unless you're a resolute bottom, how does dick size matter? There's a lot more to erotic fulfillment than length or girth.

From 4 years ago in 2020: https://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog/2020/04/07/blind-optimism-blah-outcomes/

I think it was the old Tawan in the first video (1248234). The back wall of the second video is very familiar, but I can't place it.

Agree +1 It depends on what sort of bar we're referring to. If it is drinking bars (with or without hosts) then yes, these are semi-social places and therefore culture-dependent. It's not a simple Asian-Farang divide. A bar that caters to Chinese tastes will look and feel different from one that caters to Japanese tastes or Indian tastes. And does "Western taste" include Country-and-Western American tastes? As for gogo bars, these places are more about flesh than culture, and flesh is flesh. The gogo bars of Bangkok have equal appeal, I think, to gay men of any culture. See my story about the Chinese visitor in Fresh Boy in my story https://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog/2024/09/27/pouffes-ahoy-at-fresh-boy/ This guy took to things like duck to water. However, when the gogo bars put on shows, then the question of cultural taste kicks in. What kind of show? What sort of humour? What genre of music? What situational references? What sensitivities to avoid? I am pretty sure that the invitation to women in bars is driving much of the adaptation in less-than-positive ways. Much has been said about their preference for clothed men rather than naked men since they enjoy the company of men for the illusion of romance rather than the carnal; with that, there follows a bias towards just sitting and chatting instead of offing and bonking. W hen host/bar boys can earn enough out of tips for charming the girls at the sofa, they become less interested in being off'd by men. For a glimpse into what girls (Japanese girls in this case) want out of a boy bar, see this post: https://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog/2024/04/18/host-bars-that-arent-for-us/ As Thai bars adapt in a similar direction, it's no wonder we feel frustrated with them.

Why resort to laser pointers, or causing embarrassment to customers, as @emiel1981 experienced? What's wrong with a low-tech solution like wearing numbers? Why dispense with it?

The simple answer: I don't know anymore than you might. I am far removed from being a "young Asian visitor" (how I wish 🤪 I'm one). Your observation of the crowd in BoyzBoyzBoyz is pertinent, and seems to indicate a desire for fun and entertainment (true of all young people anywhere, I'd imagine) - neither of which concept, as you yourself have pointed out, has yet crossed the minds of Jomtien bar owners. There is likely to be another dimension: the aesthetic. What is aesthetically pleasing to Western eyes may not be the same to other cultures' eyes. And other dimensions, such as music. Have you noticed that on Walking Street of Pattaya, the bars catering to the Indian visitor almost always play Indian pop? If, as a thought experiment, the Jomtien bars changed to play music like this: I think we can expect lots of farangs complaining and not returning despite the music (objectively speaking) being perfectly listenable and suitable for a cafe or bar. For 2 likely reasons: the songs are not situated within their cultural context - they don't have memory associations of earlier times when the songs meant something to them emotionally; also playing songs of a different culture is seen as signalling valency or bias for that culture, counter to the cutlure that one identifies with. That said... But why should Asian culture or Asian languages be alien to people of whiter skin? Can we imagine a day when Chinese is the most common second language for people around the world, such that when people of two different countries meet (e.g. Uzbekistan and Madagascar) they automatically reach for Chinese to cross-communicate? Is it unimaginable that one day, White people sitting in bars would find music like above perfectly normal? Listen to how fluent this guy is:

I think you're too optimistic. My guess is that the sign will attract no more than one clueless new visitor per month. From a cost-benefit angle, it's not worth the expense. 22 years ago was a different world. This Gayguides forum didn't exist. Today hardly any westerner would be travelling anywhere without some web search. The likelihood of that rare westerner who didn't do his homework and has no clue where the gay scene is and then somehow ending up on Thappraya Road and stumbling upon the sign is very, very low. Consider too the depressing fact: despite all the social media talk about gay life in Pattaya, high season continues to get lower each year. In short, even if they did a web search and read about Pattaya, they haven't been coming. There are more fundamental ills about the Pattaya scene that no sign can help with. As for the burgeoning numbers of non western visitors to Pattaya they are more likely to be surprised to see such a sign since I believe social media in their languages won't have much about gay Jomtien. But once they see those bars, they will likely write off the place. Asian visitors are younger than the average age of the western visitors to Jomtien Complex. The culture of sitting in a bar nursing a drink, simply doesn't appeal to the younger Asian crowd. So the net gain in terms of customer traffic from the new sign will likely be zero. A better case study may be the Russians. Everytime I am in Pattaya in December and riding a songtaew in the Jomtien, Thappraya area, I almost always find myself riding with Russians on the vehicle. Or if walking inland from Dongtan beach, there are plenty of them taking that route too. Over the years, lots of Russians must have gone past Jomtien Complex on foot or on songtaews. Yet I doubt if you'd see any significant number of Russians in Jomtien bars. Perhaps others can share a better observation. Hoping to gain customers by sheer chance of a passer-by is not the cleverest marketing strategy.

Time to go to church, go to confession and pray hard 😁The way the bars change, no one can be sure it'll still be there.

Oh, not for me then. I'm no muscle worshipper. Thanks, anyway.

Unless one is the extremely indecisive sort, most of us will be able to get a sense within 10 mnutes whether the boy sitting beside is compatible/attractive enough for taking off. 100 baht is the going rate (at least that's the rate I apply and have not met with any demurral). If he has sat for longer, say, > 20 minutes, maybe 200 baht. It would be unfair to his chances of getting another customer if he is expected to sit for more than 20 - 25 minutes. Also, as mentioned above, when it's his turn to go back to the rotation on stage he will tell you. E.g. when he says "I go dancing now," it is also code for "So, are you taking me off or not?" If you tip him, it's clear. He won't come back. If you don't tip, he may still not come back (even if the drink isn't finished) and you'll get a reputation in the bar as a tightfisted customer. On the other hand, if you say "Yes, please put on your clothes," then he won't go on stage, but directly to the changing room. You don't have to tip him, since you'll be paying him big later. Buying a drink for a boy has little monetary value to him. It varies from bar to bar, but typically, he gets 50 baht out of the 500 baht you'll be charged for the glass. I doubt it, but since I never buy bottles, I don't know. What if a customer calls the entire bar over (say 30 boys) to his table. Is the bar going to have to share its takings with all of them? The economics speak against it.

Apologies in advance as I am not able to answer @abidismaili's specific question, which is about Pattaya. In any case, @bkkmfj2648 has given you a clear reply. But as I was reading the various posts before that, I saw something that I have commented upon in the past, but it bears repeating. Bangkok and Pattaya are completely different markets, and it is sometimes a source of confusion when we speak of "Thailand". Chiang Mai is different again. Phuket too. Each city's scene therefore has characteristics that reflect its market. To generalise is to mislead oneself. Pattaya is a market for Western tourists who have a tendency to come during the northern winter. It used to be that a considerable number of them stay for about 3 months, thereby boosting the appearance of large numbers (due to longer "dwell-time") when the numbers (in terms of unique persons) were probably never very large. This gave rise to the stereotype of a "high season". I will defer to @bkkmfj2648 observation about Jomtien massage shops, but my recall is that the Boyztown bars do have a higher number of boys on the stage during the northern winter. At least that was what I saw in the years past, I dont know if that is still the case. Pattaya is increasingly also a market for Indian tourists, but they have no interest in the gay scene. Bangkok's gay scene in its central areas (not its suburbs) is a market for Asian tourists, many of whom come from China and neighbouring, tropical countries. The "winter effect" does not apply. Regulars of Bangkok's bars and tourist-oriented massage parlours will tell you that 90 - 95% of the visitors are Asian, and have been so for maybe two decades. Bangkok's gay scene in its central areas have high spikes rather than a high season. They spike when the source country, e.g. China, SIngapore, Malaysia , Taiwan or Korea has a major holiday and long weekend, and these are scattered around the year. Each spike lasts no more than a weekend or a week at most. As for the numbers of boys in Bangkok's "places of interest", my observation is that they do not vary by season. A market that has short-lived spikes here and there does not create enough of seasonality. That said, there is still a significant increase of straight and family Western tourists coming to Bangkok during the northern winter, and this is reflected in hotel and arifare prices; but since they are not into the gay stuff, it has little impact on Bangkok's gay scene. Maybe the number of Westerners in bars will increase to 15% during this period form the usual 5 - 10%, not enough to affect staffing levels in the bars. Chiang Mai is essentially a local Thai market. Its rhythms reflect that. (I have seen, though, hordes of Chinese tourists in northern Thailand and Laos during the Chinese New Year holidays, with many driving in from Yunnan, too; but they're not interested in the gay scene.) Phuket is characterised by a strong surge of tourists during the northern winter. It has horrid weather during the summer monsoon, with rain every day and dangerously rough seas. Phuket is exposed to the Indian Ocean, from where the monsoon comes. Sun and sand is also a greater attraction for Westerners than for Asians, so this explains the high proportion of Western tourists in Phuket, which in turn means a northern winter peak. Now, I believe Russian tourists are the biggest group, and given the severe winter in their country, the "high season" is further reinforced. Despite this, Phuket's gay scene, by all reports, continues to wither. I would have thought that, given the homophobia in Russian society, lots of gay Russians would be eager to come, find a bit of freedom and boost Phuket's gay scene the way homophobia in the West fuelled Pattaya's emergence in the 1980s and 1990s, but apparently there is no sign of that happenning. Maybe @Moses can offer some insight into why this is not happening?

True for me too. Some of my fondest memories are with guys I have met in saunas and for-pay places that are way down at the 10 percentile in the size scale.

In my experience, there is often some exaggeration. Even things like height. I know my own height - we all know our own - and quite often someone advertised as taller than me turns out not so.

Agree +1, though I would have phrased the last part slightly differently to give more nuance to the words "appear to enjoy" - Preference for those that are smart and intuitive enough to give the illusion that they like and appreciate the time with me.

@bkkmfj2648 I have tried retirement, for all of nine months. Was so bored, I was going insane. Got back into work though on a lighter schedule since i can now afford to be choosier about the consulting projects I take on. I don't particularly like Thailand 😳 as a country or society. Many things annoy me while I am there. It's mostly just its sex scene I would come back for, so even if I am fully retired, it's better to visit, say 3 times a year, than to live there. If I lived there, I fear I might either break the bank or get bored with the sex scene. Or, more likely, both. As our wise @vinapu once said, the trouble with living in Thailand is that you can't visit.