KhorTose

Welcome back to Thailand. Wish I was there with you. Where are the pictures?

To all of you who have told their stories, thank you. You not only touched my heart, but you've opened my eyes, and made me rethink my dislike for Pattaya. Yes, at this moment I do not share you love of Pattaya, but allow me to share my story. My dislike is not fueled by bitterness, but an entirely different approach to Thailand and life in General. I started out in LOS in Chiang Mai with a boy I met on line. He took very good care of me and we spent ten days seeing much in and around Chiang Mai. He was a bar boy, who lived in Chon Buri. When I found out he was married I decided not to continue the relationship beyond Chiang Mai. I next went to Burma by myself for 8 days and toured Yangoon, Mandalay, Bagan and Mt. Poppa, with a fantastic company that provided some of the best guides anyone could ask to have. Then I returned to Bangkok, or tout city. After Chiang Mai and Burma, Bangkok was a whole new world. I went from an observer of the local customs and culture, to a mark for all the touts and schemers. Nothing I had experienced up to this point had prepared me for this. When I looked for the Thai culture that I had seen in Chiang Mai, what I found was transplanted Western Culture. I spent six days in Bangkok where I had to be on the alert every day for touts, pickpockets and schemers. I did meet one very handsome hot Thai guy who I fell deeply in love with. He was very good in bed, but I could not keep him from drinking every thing in sight. Nevertheless, I liked him so much that I agreed to take him to Pattaya with me where I had reservations for six days. On the way we stopped in a small town somewhere in Chon Buri to meet his family. After watching the whole family become fallen down drunk, and getting the sick sister and can you help my brother’s business stories, I gave up on boy #2. On to Pattaya where I had Pattaya’s best guide in GayButton. GB does not remember me because he has helped so many people both by being a guide, and with his outstanding message board that I am sure the names and faces run together. In spite of Bangkok, I was still considering a move to Thailand and maybe opening a restaurant. GB took me to a well established place and introduced me to the owner/chef who provided me with a wealth of information. After leaving the restaurant we went to Boystown where he took me to Gacuya, a very good bar at the time. (A place I enjoyed on each and every visit) Here we separated, but he gave me his number and we met several times after that, and I continued to get great advice from him up to the day I returned home. On my own after GB left, I decided to go to Sunee Plaza since I was staying at the Yensabai Condos. As GayPattayan said, “The dark alleys in Pattaya are perhaps some of the darkest I have seen.” Just like a certain man is the elephant in the closet when we talk politics in Thailand, so is the pedophile the elephant when we talk about Pattaya. I do not wish to offend, but some of those alleys are just to dark for me to stomach, and I have the European definition of pedophilia, not the American Christian Right’s definition. Please do not get me wrong. I do not condemn the people who go to Sunee, as I also see the plus side of the plaza. In fact, I spent my last night enjoying myself at a corner bar that a trombone-playing friend of GB recommended, and met a very nice young man. Not all of the plazas or all of the people there are bad. It is just what is bad is very very bad and I do not want to see it happening and be helpless to do anything about it. Pedophilia can and does occur everywhere, it is just TOO obvious in Sunee Plaza. So I do not reject Thailand, and I have no bitterness in my heart, although some of the things that happened to Bucknaway happened to me. In fact I love Thailand, but I have seen enough of "dark alleys" to last me a lifetime. They not only exist in Thailand, but we have some of them in the USA and there are others elsewhere in the world. It is just that I do not wish to live near any of them, and I really don’t think you can avoid seeing them in Pattaya. What I really want, besides a good-looking young man, is to grow old and still feel that I am needed. There is a great need in this country for so many things that I can do from teaching English, (It is the world’s language—like it or not.) to sponsoring someone in college or helping them start a business. By helping others I can fulfill my desire to still be needed, and that is very important to me. I find the needs are greater in Chiang Mai then elsewhere in Thailand, and the dark alleys are very well hidden. However, you have all made me rethink my dislike of Pattaya

LOL Yes but you told him you were 21 year old with 9 horny inches. Just kidding. I plan to rent a house for at the first year, as I love to cook, and a small condo does not do it for me. There will be at least one guest bedroom and good people are always welcome. I will be PMing you soon with a firm date.

"I did say that I was old, jaded and bitter, didn't I?--Xian" Yes you did say that, but I am afraid you only speak the truth in this case. Your reply made me smile and laugh. Thank you. When I get established in Chiang Mai in 13 month and 14 days, you will always have a place to stay if you choose to visit. Khor tose

Darn, you just broke my heart. I was hoping that if marriage was a possibility, that the status of Westerner would move from predator to asset.. The reason I thought this was possible was that I have seen personal ads where the boy is looking for someone from Europe or Scandinavia. However, when I read your reply and really thought about it, I realize that you are once again correct, Moving to Europe or Scandinavia would be just one boys decision, and would do little to change the attitudes of of Asians in general. I can see that I will have to ponder this some more. Thank you for your reply and your input and if you come up with a way to make older gay male Westerners a more valued commodity, please let me know.

Great discussion. I've read many other Westerners complaining about how the laws are enforced or not enforced when it comes to gays and pedophiles in Thailand, but you two have actually put it together. At least in my head. What you both have explained rings so true, and fits so well that it is all beginning to make sense to me. I can not thank you enough for sharing you thoughts and observations with me. Just one question and I would love to have your further thoughts. What if there was gay marriage in this country and Thai men could legally marry Western men? Would that change the paradigm any?

Xiandarkthorne you just blew my sock off with your outstanding analysis. I would rather have my socks blown off this way, then the common way they are blown off with most gay men. Your name says it all. You are an enlightened one. Do keep writing. In fact, I really would like to know the rest of the reasons.

Try these sites. All Chiang Mai. Best is Jasmine homes #2. Sabaideals is five sites in one. Have fun, and remember this is the asking prices. You can buy lower in most cases http://www.chiangmairealty.com/apartments.htm http://www.jasminehomes.co.th/index.php http://chiangmaiproperties.free.fr/ http://sabaideal.com/estate/estate.html http://www.sunbelt-chiangmai.com/ http://www.firstnationalthailand.com/ Also the classified in these two english language newspapers: http://www.chiangmainews.com/ http://www.chiangmai-mail.com/ OKAY MODERATOR HOW DO Ii CHANGE MY NAME ON THIS WEB SITEFROM RICWILDER TO KHOR TOSE?

Okay: 1. I buy an unlocked iphone here is the USA for $519 with 8 megs & gsm and take it to Thailand how do I get the Thai programs? 2. Can I get on the internet in Thailand using a 1,2 call sim card or do I have to buy a special card and service in Thailand?

Bob's assessment is 100% right on. I suggest you read this great article on why the dollar will be crashing. http://www.marketoracle.net/Article4248.html

OK--be more specific. 1. I was not persecuted but treated very well by both government and non-government people. 2. I suffered only in the sense that empathy for others who are hurting makes you hurt. 3. Yes go to Burma--by all means. Just try not to give any money to the government. A. Don't trade money at government rates. This is only country where I recommend the black market. No not on the street, but see your local Chinese Jeweler. Burma kicked many Indians out of the country years ago and their place was often taken by Chinese Merchants. You get a great exchange rate. B. Stay at no hotels in old Bagan. They are all owned or silent partners of the Generals. Know that Burma turned down a grant to preserve the monuments and temples at Bagan by the UN, only to have the government refuse the money and rebuild the temples. What you are looking at is mostly new, not old or preserved. Then they moved all the people who lived in old Bagan and built new hotels on their land and made them move where they can get no tourist business. So go to new Bagan and stay there and help--what is now--a poor village. C. Stay at no five or four star hotels. Even the hotel chains have to have one of the generals as a partner. 4. Do Eat at night at local markets and smile at everyone. I will bet you that someone who speaks English will strike up a conversation with you. 5. Do get to know one Burmese really well, and he/she will introduce you to others and you will get the picture of the real Burma. I did not feel this way before I went to Burma. I do now. 6. Do see the temples and do go to the shops where so many fine things are made and can be purchased for such a low price. Shops--silver, those beautifull wall hanging you see in Thailand, silk, beautiful lacquerware, imperial jade, gemstones, wood carving, etc. 7. Do check out many of the nunneries--as many women in Burma are nuns. The monasteries are interesting--but receive plenty of money. The nunneries where many young girls live and go to school could really use donations and help. Nuns are very rare in the Buddhist world. They are just making a comeback in China. Taiwan has some, but Burma has the greatest percentage. 8. Also unique, and to me a must, is to go to Mt. Poppa and see the home of the Nats, or how we explain homosexuality in Burma. It is facinating place. Watch out for the monkeys, they do bite. I firmly believe you can have a good time in Burma and, at the same time, help out the Burmese people without enriching their corrupt government. Yes, you may have to make some sacrifices, but to me it is worth it

[Hedda, your views on the subject are very well known. What is the point of repeating yourself? Are you trying to shut down an interesting and informative discussion? Judging from the number of readers of this thread, people would like to learn more about the country. Your cliches and platitudes can hardly substitute a true information.] I've been to Burma. Yangoon, Mandalay, Bagan and Mt. Poppa when you still had to have a guide. I kept my ears open and my mouth shut and contributed as little as I could to that totally corrupt government. Because I've been there, I totally agree with Hedda's post, in the hopes that it will remind everyone to do the same. Yes, go to Burma, but research first so that the hotel you stay in is not government owned (All the hotels in the old Bagan are government owned) So stay in the new Bagan in a less fancy hotel that is not on the river, etc. Eat at local resturants, buy at the local market, be nice to others, and you will meet many others who speak English--especially in Mandalay. Yes, have a BF, but get to know him and others well enough to talk polictics and maybe you will leave Burma with a greater understanding that these are very good people living under a very bad government that surpresses them at every junction. I know I have done everything I can to oppose this government, since I returned from Burma. I know I will always remember some of the fine and brave people who told me just how bad it is. This maybe truly the world's worst government. So have a good time, but please--if you care about people--make every effort not to contribute to thier pain and suffering.

1. Best area/hotel to stay--------Around Central--so stay PJ's Place--if you can get a booking. The best. 2. Tourist things to do by day-----Elephant farms, reptile farm, national parks, doi Suthep shrine, zoo shopping at local villages, backpacking, etc 3, Massage--I always recommended B-Beez. I've never gone wrong there and thier longivity speaks for itself. 4. Thaepae gate at night---but very young. Straight boys in night Bazaar by hotel D2---gay boys in night Bazaar near the climbing wall. The Mall at central. \Giood luck. I love Chiang Mai. If you are really bored go to one of the two English universities for monks and help them learn English by talking to them all day. Good luck.

Thank you for your report. Having spent the vast majority of my time in the LOS in Chiang Mai, I concur with your conclusions. Especially everything about B-Breeze. Yes, almost all the boys are gay. They give a great, professional massage, and a wonderful happy ending. The owners are nice, friendly and do all they can to run a good, honest business. You will not get ripped off, and facilities are clean, and the boys are great. One thing you forgot to mention, that I feel is important.l is that their prices for soda and alcohol are very cheap, and if you do not wish to order a drink they will instantly provide you with free water and tea. All part of making your visit relaxing and enjoyable. I could recommend a very special boy, but taste are different.

I agree, but reality is that nearly all of us over 60 and most of us over 50 have been victims or almost victims of gay violence. I envy any one over these ages that has not faced possible physical harm and destruction for our orientation. I also envy the youth that are growing up today who face far less chance of violence then we did. It is getting much better out there and there now are places in the world and in the US that are "safe" now. For the tired old man who is tired of fighting and living in fear, I am moving to Thailand to retire and will lose two of my main fears when I do. No longer will I live in fear of being targeted for being gay (I may be targeted for being rich,m but that is so different), and I will not live in fear of dying alone. Sometime on one of these boards, we should have a poll to decide what reason is the most important for living in LOS, especially when I mean "by not dying alone", I am including being in a place with so many gay men who have had similar experiences and backgrounds who makle such great friends and provide a support network.

ok---great news

GB This time I completely disagree with you. Anyone who is this judgemental has a problem that is deeper then the surface talk. This person does not sound normal in the head. One hour and he knew everything about Sunee plaza---give me a break. People who see pedos everywhere they look and assume the worst about any adult with a child definetly should not be around children. I guarentee he would not come within a mile of my kids. Pedo or not this guy has a problem--a big one.