KhorTose

Thanks Fountainhall, I am familiar with all of these articles. 1. The lady herself did not say this and interviews are still possible. That is why I specifically asked Josan for first person interviews like the one I gave him. 2. The Free Burma type web sites---you have a big one in the UK--all say it is the Burma government's propaganda. For further information try this UK web site where they discuss the subject at length and talk about child labor used to build tourist sites. If you really want to know they are dozens of web sites from Thailand to South Africa against this government. I get most of my information from the US based free Burma web site, but england for english. http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/index.php/campaigns/the-tourism-campaign/11/123 As sort of an interesting aside, the present Burmese government is trying in a big way to promote tourism---since they own all the tourist hotels. Every web site they have seems to have three things in common. 1. They are slow--old servers. 2. They never talk about the exchange rate or if they do they give the official rate. 3. They all say how safe Burma is and what a great place to invest--strange for a tourist site--yes. If you would like I will show you some examples from an old newsletter I have, if I can find it.

I've done that and agree it is not only cheaper, but a far better drink for dehydration then Gatorade.

I have had the complete search once, and one of the first things I mentioned when they asked me about girls, was that I was gay. After that I had no real problem with the custom's officer who seemed to appreciate my frankness. All they did was check the pictures on my camera--probably to make sure I had no porn or little boy pictures. Never been stopped since and I have gone back and forth about three more times since then.

Fountainhall is correct. I am lazy and tend to reply to each message separately which is another way of making clear what are your words are, and what is the quote you are replying to. In the interst of space and readiblitiy I will do it in the right way. Seems clear to me, but okay I will make it very easy for you. Just show me one reference where she said she now wants tourist to come to Burma. I mean direct reference, as the government of Burma has twice tried to convince the world that she wants tourist and all the Burma web sites say the opposite. You know what, now I am again suspicious of who the heck you really are. I have a American Lao doctor friend who regularly travels to Burma as a member of Doctors without Borders. There is a black market rate, and it is safe to use. If any member of this board (except Josan) who plans to go to Burma would like to know how to get this rate please PM me and I will tell you. Encourage by whom? Not the western nations, not by nobel prize winner elected leader of Burma Aung San Suu Lyi, not by the hundreds of free burma type sites--some of whom are based in Thailand. Secondly, you are saying the Western nations are the reason for this government's horrendous treatment of its own people. Quite a leap, I am impressed that you know far more then they do about what is good for Burma. I am not saying they are perfect, but please we are not responsible for this oppressive government. What middle class? Per capita income in Burma is $1000 USD versus Thailand at $9000 USD. All of your money will end up in the general's hands and they will use it to suppress their own people and ethnically cleanse their minorities. Just what Thailand needs is to have thousands or more shan and karen refugees. Once again you know more then all the Western governments. Yes I see your logic. It is the evil Western government's dislike of Burma which compels them on a course of hurting the little people in Burma. I mean there is no way they could be looking at the long range picture that by depriving Burma of trade and investments they are keeping this government so poor that it cannot buy all the arms, tanks, helicopters, etc that is needs to suppress its own people and eliminate their own minorities, nor can they cannot buy cameras, bugs, and listening devices to control every aspect of the lives of their people or any hope of revolution of their people. Tell me when they killed all of the monks in that last big riot, where did some of the money come from for the army?

Sounds like you missed a great opportunity. I would have replied that, "No I do not like ladies, but I definitely go for TSA men in uniforms. How about giving me your phone number and the time you get off." Even if he was not interested, I think he might decide to quit holding your hand. It is a shame that you can't feel his pulse when you ask that question. Oh well, welcome home anyway.

Come on, go back and reread the post. I can understand if you cannot comprehend the arguments---which I know to be untrue in this case---but I cannot understand why you cannot read the arguments and follow the discussion, and this is not the first time I've noticed you doing this.

Gee whiz, I am really really glad that you did not make a mistake. Where is the ignore button on this web site.

In other words she has not changed her mind.

I did not tell anyone not to go to Burma. I just informed people of what Nobel prize winning Aung San Suu Kyi said about tourists, and advised them to use their own conscience. You came back with the "virgin queen of the Western world" smear and then proceeded to belittle the use of Burma which my Burmese charity and my country do not use. In other words you became overly defensive. So my question was a fair question as I want to know what interest of yours promotes such a reaction. Thank you for your answer. As a man who for years did and still does tries to stay at and patronize gay businesses, I do understand your answer. However, the very least I would recommend to others that if they choose to go to Burma to do what billyhoustan suggested, and what I did when I was there by staying in small hotels and trying not to give any money to this unbelievably rotten government. One also might suggest that you trade your money very carefully on the black market, or at least on the unoffical offical government black market rate and not at the published rate. This is the only country in the world that I would give this recommendation. A brief discussion of the three different rates, and the risk should be part of any invitation to Burma. Why give these corrupt bastard their asking rate that no bank or credit card company in the world is willing to accept? You say your basic message was not political, but sometimes the absence of information is in of itself political, and I was quite surprised that you reacted so strongly when I included just one facet of the Burmese problem.

I depart completely from the American Civil Liberties Union and my liberal friends on this one. A national Identification card is needed and long overdue. 1. I have no racial, ethnic, economic or religious predujices, but as a taxpayer I only wish to have my tax dollars go to helping legal American immigrants and citizens in need, and not going to support people who sneak into the country. 2. In this day and age of terrorism, I think it is unconscionable not to have a national id system. 3. I am upset if I have to support a needy mother with my tax dollars when her bum of a husband has taken off and got himself a new id so he does not have to pay child support. 4. The ACLU says I have to worry about "Big Brother", well I am more worried about the murderer that fled custody, and now lives down the street with a new id. You can substitute rapist, child molester or armed robber for murderer and I am still upset. 5. It is about time we stop employers who hire illegals and pay them less then they would have to pay American workers. 6. A national ID would be a big crimp in the sex slave business in the US and the business of importing sweat shop laborers with a big debt to work off to the smugglers. Great question

You, of course are absolutely correct. Sorry for that conclusion, please accept my apology. I am going to blame GB because I was somewhat exasperated that he did not read the post before answering. ((Please GB I am just kidding.)) Yes, my information came from a USA based organization called "Free Burma" which I have contributed to in the past and still get newsletters from. I went to Wiki and they say basically the same thing. Myanmar means just the Burmen and Burma--being less formal applies to the whole country. Here is the Wiki entry. "The name "Burma" is derived from the Burmese word "Bamar" (), which in turn is the colloquial form of Myanmar () (or Mranma in old Burmese), both of which historically referred to the majority Burmans (or the Bamar). Depending on the register used the pronunciation would be "Bama" or "Myanmah". The name "Burma" has been in use in English since the time of British colonial rule. In 1989, the military government officially changed the English translations of many colonial-era names, including the name of the country to "Myanmar". This prompted one scholar to coin the term "Myanmarification" to refer to the top-down programme of political and cultural reform in the context of which the renaming was done. The renaming remains a contested issue.[6] While some of the name changes are closer to their actual Burmese pronunciations, many opposition groups and countries continue to oppose their use in English because they recognise neither the legitimacy of the ruling military government nor its authority to rename the country or towns in English.[7] Various non-Burman ethnic groups choose to not recognise the name because the term Myanmar has historically been used as a label for the majority ethnic group, the Bamar, rather than for the country.[8][9][10] You sound like you have first hand information, but now I am confused as both this USA based organization and Wiki are telling me the same thing. Any help you can give me in understanding the different interpretations would be appreciated. Thank you and please excuse my stupid inference.

You did not ask the question of Josan but of billyHoustan. What josan said was a distortion of facts. Billyhoustan, by the way, does extensive business in Myanmar going back to his post on flying to Burma using Asia Airlines, Air Mandalay, etc. So I know where he is coming from already and what interest he is protecting. Once again hitting my theme that my question to Josan is a fair one.

Do you notice your question was not answered?

Rarely a state policy like it is in Burma. Even after he mistakes facts about Burma and the country? You did read my post, yes? I could not agree more and completely support you right to choose. I only started this because he belittled a real a person and a problem, and played loose with facts. Do not you remember reading this, " Of course, what you do or do not do is up to your individual conscience. I, for one, will not go." After this message we got the belittling of Aung san suu Kyi and then the distortion of facts. Why was he so defensive. My question stands and I do not think it is unfair.

I liked your whole post. However, the loud music thing is my chief complaint and it is not only in bars. I have had this problem in restaurants on several occasions. What I can never understand is why they will not turn down the music when someone complains. It completely baffles me. Only in Thailand.

Darn it Bob, I've told you time and time to keep your head down. Here is one responder that I wish had not agreed with me.

Dream on Take care, your worship, those things over there are not giants but windmills. - Miguel de Cervantes

You said that your message was not political but just gay related. What you are saying in the above is 100% political and a great distortion of the facts. The man who kicked the British out of Burma in 1948 (Aung San Suu Kyi's father) called the country Burma and it stayed that way under several changes of leadership until 1988 when the present Military Junta (SLORC) renamed it Myanmar. The Burmese people were never asked what they wanted their country called and the freely elected leader of Burma (Aung Sam Suu Kyi) calls the country Burma along with Australia, the US. the UK. France and Germany to name a few. Furthermore, Burma comes from the largest ethnic group the Burmans, but this name is less formal then the name Myanmar (which is the formal name of the Burman people). Many of the minority groups in Burma have objected to this name change, and this government has been engaged in an ethnic cleansing of these groups. Where do you think the Karen come from in Thailand? To call this name change Political correctness is at the best a very cheap shot on your part. Secondly, you stated in an earlier message that there is no reason anyone would not want tourist to come to this country. Strange that you would ignore the fact that the generals who run this country are doing so in order to line their own pockets at the expense of their people. For example, the present leader of the SLORC recently spent 40 million USD on his daughter's wedding. The village of Bagan was moved far away from the ruins (depriving many Burmese of a livelihood), new general owned hotels were built and now all the money tourist spend goes directly into the general's pockets. Many of the generals have established themselves as secret partners in almost every business in Burma and like the Mafia they take their rake off. How safe is a country with a 400,000 man army that routinely shoots its own people. Amnesty International, Human Rights watch, and other groups have repeatedly detailed a gruesome litany of abuses, including murder, torture, rape, detention without trial, massive forced relocation, and forced labor. Political correctness my Ass. How about answering one question. What business do you or your boyfriend own that benefits from tourism?

Hardly a proper name for the daughter of the hero of the Burmese revolution, Nobel prize winner, and elected leader of Burma. She did say this in a direct interview on several occasion. All reports she has changed her mind are second hand. Aung San Suu Kyi Interview | The Progressive

I hate to make similar post on two different web sites. However, josan has posted this on three web site and on this one there is interest. I have been to Mt, Popa and visited the Nats when you still had to have a guide or a minder to get into Burma. I am sure this festival would be a lot of fun. However the first thing you need to know is that the elected leader of Burma Aung Sun Suu Kyi--who is presently under house arrest now for 15+ years---has asked tourist to stay away. Of course, what you do or do not do is up to your individual conscience. I, for one, will not go.

At last 100% agreement. This, of course, is my fondest hope.

Great news. Sometimes international pressure does work and this is one of those times.

Fountainhall, I am impressed by your powerful arguments against Thaskin. In your arguments you presented facts rather then second hand information, and evidence rather then emotional diatribe. This is the type of argument I will listen to and respond to. After doing a fact check, on your arguments, I am now convinced that Thaskin did as much wrong as he did good, and there is great justification in disliking him. Where we still may part is the argument that the Red Shirts are just his paid dupes, and this government is any better then Thaskin's was. In fact, I still consider them far worse. They came to power after a coup. They handpicked the courts judges. They removed one PMs on trumped up charges using their courts. They shut down the airport and government house and they did have guns, and use violence against the police While the airport was shut down they pressured and bribed the smaller partys to join them. They fired the police chief who tried to clear government house They outlawed a whole party for things this current main government party also did. They have used lese Majesty charges to silence opponents. They used the military to kill and wound thousands of protestors for doing what yellow shirts did. They have shut down all opposition press and radio stations They are holding the Red Shirt leaders in jail while Sondi and the PAD leaders go free. Their main platform is to change the constitution so that one man one vote does not apply. And all of the above is only a partial list, hastily typed out from memory. I am sure if I did some digging I could come up with far more then this. Just like you believe that a leader should be an example, I believe that a government that denies human rights and give all appearances of being a government of only the few and privileged is terribly bad news for the people. I also know and believe that the red shirt movement is the largest group of committed people in this country, based on the fact that they won the last two free elections and the current PAD party is reluctant to hold new elections. I also find that the Red shirts are not stupid farmers, not paid dupes, and are willing to die to get a voice in their own government. You appear to have faith in this government to turn things around, while all I see them doing is trying to change laws and deny freedoms to keep themselves in power. They do not want to correct the wrongs or imbalances in Thailand's society, but set up an armed state where there power will be enforced by the control of all information, the use of the Army when necessary, the teaching of subsistence economics which basically says stay in your place and be happy, and the paid cooperation of the Monks who also emphasize a karma type of caste system. I believe you may see this country heading for anarchy under the red shirts, and I do see this country heading for a Burma solution under the present government. I guess are major difference between us can come down to I freely choose anarchy over dictatorship (Oligarchy).

Go without things you would like to own and things you would like to buy (like food) long enough and then tell me that overweight hairy guy is really that ugly.

I agree we are all adults and we all know, and probably automatically read the real meaning, when we see the asterisks. I do not find these words that shocking, but I will still use the asterisks. Why? It was just the way I was brought up. I can't help 65 years of conditioning.