Londoner

The real danger in Boyztown. is crossing 2nd Road. Almost as dangerous is the bus or taxi journey from the airport. Some hotels are not safe due to poor fire escape provision. Anything else pales into insignificance.

Nor do I blame them. Many years ago, I had a relationship with a guy in West Africa whose living conditions were far worse than those of my boyfriend when I first met him. He was just the same in this respect as the Thai guys. One of the issues that always haunts these relationships is that for someone from a very poor background, the fact that we are there in their country means that we are richer beyond their wildest dreams. They are often incapable of making a distinction between the "wealth" that we typical falangs have and the extravagant riches of a millionaire. It took me years to persuade P. that, though I can afford to make a big difference to his life, back home I have to spend my pension with care. And worse; I drive a second hand Ford Focus. Of course, we're not that different. How do we judge with any degree of accuracy the difference between a wealthy banker who owns an expensive London home and drives a Ferrari and that of a Premiership footballer who owns a country estate as well- and a fleet of Ferraris? For me, the first is rich beyond my dreams....just as the second is too.

Yes. Plenty of saunas here in the UK. At fifty-five, you'll do fine.

I'm not convinced by Bucknaway's views on "experience". Some people haven't got many trips experience of Thailand; they have one trip's experience repeated over and over again.

I asked my partner of twelve years- an ex-money boy in Pattaya- about this very issue three weeks ago when I was in Thailand. Specifically, I asked how much he would pay a a guy from Planet Romeo or Hornet if he were to arrange a meeting at our hotel. His answer was definitive; 1000 bht. I taxed him on this; he's thirty-three and very attractive. Surely, I said, someone who looks like you wouldn't have to pay the same as an ageing falang? surely the guys on Hornet et al would be happy to accept a lower amount from you? His answer was much the same as Firecat's; the guys are making money to pay rent ,pay for food and often to send money home. "Fun" doesn't pay the rent.. I've learnt a lot about his two years in Pattaya. He is now doing well financially in the north of the country but being the guy that I love, he has an understanding of the situation our Pattaya friends are in. He finds the concept of under-paying distasteful and alien to his religious beliefs.....however cute we think we are. Or in my case, not at all. At the same time, he speaks with some affection of those years. In particular, he's grateful for the comradeship; the way the bar-boys looked after each other. Those who'd been successful one night would buy dinner for his friends, they'd borrow money in extremis- in general terms they'd look after each other. Particularly newbies. He would appreciate Firecat's comments. He speaks from experience. And my own two decades of visiting support him.

My boyfriend and I stay in CM at least once a year....and we both love it. However, my preference is for Chiang Rai. I prefer the market and the day-trips available are, if anything, better than CM's.

No Brall 3, I am not in Pattaya now....but I was two weeks ago. And I'm missing it already. I visit three times a year, every year. If you ask one of the guys he will understandably give you the top price. If you were to say to him something like "1000 baht OK for you?" he'd be delighted.That is the going-price, though the straight guys at BBB may be disappointed. I never asked; I gave at the end of the session. It was 1000 basic, plus 200/300 for tax and dinner. Never any complaints. i can tell you that this remains the rate. I know guys on the scene.

I'd be interested to hear how you came by those figures As far as bars were concerned in my bar-cruising days, the price code for a guy you take off remained "up to you". And I've not seen, even today in my rare visits as a spectator any lists, other than those for bar -fines.

Don't forget to try the saunas....Babylon in Bangkok and Sansuk in Pattaya. I'm sure you'll be popular and it'll be free!

Correct, traveller123....and a firm grip in my arm as we negotiate Pattaya 2nd road. This makes me smile since I live in London and am far better at crossing roads than my country-boy partner!

Whall....no. Marginally better but that's all.

The real rrun -off is when I approach an entrance with the intention of going in and the doorman rushes ahead, clapping his hands. I know then that the guys are sitting around playing with their phones and have to be woken-up to put on a show for me. My heart sinks. I wish I could walk out like some do in this situation but I'm the victim of my up-bringing; my mother would have declared such behaviour "rude."

Each year low season seems lower than the one before in terms of visitors. I've just returned home from Pattaya and my impression is that this one is particularly bad. Sunee was almost deserted- at least the host bars were.I don't know about the go go bars. Boyztown was much the same as last year. Quiet but interesting enough. One thing that had changed for the worse was the number of guys on Planet Romeo; perhaps 30% down. I suspect that is partly due to the increased popularity of Hornet. The malls were quieter too; fewer Chinese groups, the Russian influence barely discernible. Expect fewer British visitors now that we've become Little Britain and our currency pays the price.

I was in Pattaya last week. I don't visit go-go bars much nowadays ( I hate being the only customer) but of the four that I saw, Cupidol was by far the best for twinks.

I really don't wish to continue this on a board that I enjoy reading for pleasure but I can't let that sort of remark pass. It is a simplification of much more complex situation. The first khatoeys I ever saw were the trans dancers in Marrakesh, Morocco,who have been clanging their percussion instruments for generations untroubled in the Square. And it was the same country that UK and US gays visited in the 50s and 60s , decades before Thailand was available, to live a gay life, as tourists and residents. It was the Sufi Iranian poets of the 12th and 13th century who were writing erotic love poetry to male lovers, when, here in Europe, such poets would have been burnt. And it was in Bagdad, a century later , that gay life- not that visible- flourished. Yes, things have changed with the advent of fundamentalism but you need to ask why. It's not the Koran that changed but the impact of our western colonialism on societies in the MiIddle East which led to a reaction. And religious fundamentalism happened in other ways in other societies for different reasons....look at the US evangelicals, the Jewish Zionists, the anti-Rohingya Buddhists and Morsi's Hindus in India., That's my last word on this subject on this board....as it happens my mind is on where to eat tonight here in Pattaya.

Just because a religion is non-violent, it doesn't mean that its followers behave in that way. And not just religious people; there's the secularists like Stalin and Pol Pot.... also pretty adept at killing non-believers.

Buddhists massacre Rohingya and Tamils though....and when it comes to violence, Christianity and Judaism are also used to justify violence. Homophobia is rife in all the major religions of the world.

The very late noise is specifically from Cafe Royale's karoake nights, when guys bellow at full volume with scant regard to the melody, to an empty soi at 0300. None of these occasions (for want of a better word) during my stay there. I still use ear plugs though.

i'm a regular at Ambiance and , since the "open" bars have....opened, I've found the noise a real problem. However, it has much improved and my last visit was problem free. I like to think that the other business owners in the soi (I understand they meet as a group) persuaded Cafe Royale and Castro to cut the noise levels to a more reasonable level. Perhaps they even read this forum. So Vinapu is absolutely correct.

The answer, for me, is in the previous posts. In 1997 I found Paradise quiet (compared to Pattaya) but tolerable. Subsequent visits, of which there have been five, confirm the fact that the place is depressing in its lack of "buzz". Now we go to Phuket to enjoy other activities, of which there are plenty. On my last visit (two years ago), the only time I in Paradise was for an afternoon massage.

Paradise was dying in 1997, as I recall.

I've met a number of Thai guys who are "into" older men. Some of them have never had sex with someone of their own age, they claim. It's possible that the respect paid to the old in Asian countries is partly responsible for this....I've never come across it in Europe.

A few questions for those of you in Bangkok....as you can see,I'll shortly be joining you. Which of the gogo bars in Si Twilight are currently presenting the best selections of twinks? and which of them (if any) are pulling in the punters? And are the host bars busy? Is Scorpion still predominantly Vietnamese? Thanks in advance for updates.

Were the naked swimmers Thai or falang? Makes all the difference, you know......

Under the pillow.