CurtisD

Peter, I suspect I owe you a very large thank you for ten years of uninterrupted fun. If our paths cross in Bangkok it will be my pleasure to stand you a substantial number of cocktails.

Wow! Thank you for setting them straight! You must have, as I never had any problems in the roughly ten years I used it as my base until around 2005, by which time it was a Four Seasons.

BiggusDikkus’s excellent account of his first experience of Bangkok planted the idea that a thread on ‘First Encounters’ with the City of Angels could be entertaining. Here is mine to kick things off. Before landing the story in Bangkok I need to back up a little as I had a vicarious familiarity with Bangkok long before I first visited. My perfect gentleman of a father (on one occasion, after finding a slug in his salad, he wrapped it in lettuce, doused it in dressing and ate it to avoid any embarrassment to his hostess) spent time in Japan and South East Asia on business in the 1960s/70s. He was very nice and very slightly naughty. As a child I was fascinated by beautifully produced Geisha House books he brought back from Japan, full of oval pictures of perfectly made-up young women. He and my mother were each other’s best friend so whatever he found to amuse himself, it was done with her knowledge and if not blessing then at least understanding. My parents had a broad outlook and so my being gay was a practical issue not a moral one. They had gay friends. The World was tough on homosexuals (the then term-of-use). This was unfortunate but a fact. How could they help? They lead me to believe that sex is enjoyable, even more so if you and your partner have a connection. Nothing wrong with casual sex, but avoid becoming fixated on mere physical sex. Sex is also a mental pleasure, which is why a connection is so important. To balance the enjoyment, there are risks. Life is a bugger. No Free Lunch and No Free Hedonism. Unplanned pregnancy can be a major life problem (although you are probably free of that one) as are diseases. Particularly syphilis (this was pre-AIDS). To clarify the point for a fifteen year old they gave me some quite advanced and very graphically illustrated medical texts. The autopsied syphilitic brain looking like a Swiss cheese was a standout image. To paraphrase my father “Swimming is great fun. Try to only swim in clean water. If you suspect the water may be less than clean, cover up properly and wash thoroughly afterwards, in which effort medicinal alcohol is useful”. So I was launched into the World with few hang-ups about my sexuality, open to and aware of the pleasures of the flesh and totally paranoid about STDs. Even with raging teenage hormones the image of the brain-as-Swiss-cheese could deflate my dick in seconds. Preparing for my first encounter with Bangkok in the pre-internet age my advance research was undertaken at the local gay bookstore. My father recommended his hotel, which is now the Anantara by Ratchadamri BTS but which back then may have been a Peninsula as that was his regular chain, and assured me that the Thais were very charming and open minded people and that I would like them. In Bangkok, ensconced at the now-Anantara, I made a strategic decision that I soon reversed. I was not sure exactly who I would encounter at the clubs and, despite my father’s assurances of open-mindedness, I could not picture myself walking comfortably through that stunning lobby with a pickup. Guided by my gay guide I went to the Tarntawan and reserved a room for recreational purposes. Friday, my first evening free of business obligations and I am excited. I have a map. I have a rec room. Krung Thep, mon amour! However, there is No Free Hedonism. As I am about to going swimming in possibly less-than-clean water, I am possessed by an almost paralyzing fear of Swiss-cheese-brain-syndrome. It takes several sazeracs to reduce this to manageable dimensions before I launch myself into the night. The hotel porter whistles up a cab (this is pre-BTS), I give the cab driver my destination and into the traffic we go. The driver looks at me in the mirror. ‘You like boy?’. Yeesss, I carefully reply. “I take you better bar”. I feel a surge of almost crazy elation. Yes, he is probably going to his friend’s bar where he gets a commission, but these people are relaxed. I decide to go with the flow. I have a map. ‘Ok’. I have no idea where he took me. Starting several sazeracs in and then continuing to drink at bar after bar, I have only a sketchy memory of the evening. I wanted to see it all and my memory is a blur of many bars, many boys and tip jars swallowing many red notes. All fun. It was all huge fun, even if I can’t recall the details. Finally I took a guy off from a bar that had an aquatic show. Tall, elegant, looking wonderful in speedos. Charming. And very understanding of someone with a few too many drinks in him. He took me to a hole in the wall restaurant for carbs and coffee. Possibly I was worth sobering up as, back then, I had thick floppy bond hair and a trim swimmers build. Possibly, understandably, he did not enjoy the fumbling of drunks. We spent several sensuous hours in mutual exploration and pillow talk. He was a student. This was how he financed his studies. How long was I in Bangkok? Not long enough, I thought. Departing in the morning we ran a gauntlet of stares from much older farang breakfasting with last night’s offs. The kind of detached lust-absorbed stares of people trying to picture you naked, people whose conversation is best avoided as it is often distasteful. The people who in my then-not-so-far-back youth had caused me to stop going to gay clubs and switch allegiance to jazz bars. I began to dislike the Tarntawan. In the evening I headed out to reconnect with Elegant-in-Speedos. Pre-Line, pre-iphone, pre-internet there was no easy way to remain in touch. I had to go back to the bar. But which bar? At the time I was not sure it was the aquatic one. Exploration is fun. I began at Tawan, planning to do the rounds in an efficient non-drinking manner until I found the right bar. Leaving Tawan I was accosted by the tout from a small bar across the soi. Many boy, you like! It was a small shabby bar with maybe eight guys who upon my entry mounted the stage and gyrated in a semi-sensual vaguely come-hither torpor. All except one and that one guy worked it with every asset and move he had. He was the most masculine of the group. An intelligent lively face, deep brown, solid muscle on a slender frame and large hands and feet which accurately indicated the potential of his endowment. In bed at the Tarntawan after showering together I am in sexual overdrive. This guy is hot. And then, the third time he removes my exploring hand from between his stunning buns, he holds it against my chest and gives me a polite but firm lesson in reality. He like girl. Have girlfriend. Have men sex as it pay a lot more than construction. While I am customer, he is himself, has boundaries, I need to respect them and him. It had never occurred to me that any guy working gogo would be anything but gay (naivety) or that anything within my vanilla repertoire would be off-limits (arrogance). He sees these thoughts on my face and smiles, pulls close and says ‘Here what I do’. I tell him what I do and then, as two tops, we proceed to make each other feel good. Within his boundaries he is very sexual. Why is more of the World not like this? After showering we leave together, him to his girlfriend and me to the more comfortable accommodations of the now-Anantara. It is around 1am and in the lobby I again encounter the gauntlet of stares from the sexually-fixated. Now I dislike the Tarntawan. Sunday, my final free evening, I reconnect with Elegant-in-Speedos. Looking at him in his street clothes I think I would not at all mind being seen with him at the now-Anantara. So that is where we go. We have cocktails and Thai food from the twenty four hour menu in the lobby. No one stares. In the room there is a bowl of red spiky Thai fruit which I have not been sure how to approach. His eyes light up and he shells one for each of us. They have a sweet and slightly scented taste. Our lips lock in a sweet and scented kiss. I looked for him the next time I visited Bangkok. ‘How long you not here? He graduate, go home’. The beginning of a cycle. A long and enjoyable cycle. Long may it last!

Biggus, I greatly enjoyed your reminiscence of your first time in Bangkok and it made me think that a thread on 'First Encounters' might be entertaining. Following your lead I have written up my first trip to Bangkok but do not want to divert this thread if you plan to use it for a report on your current trip. If you plan to use this thread to write up your current trip, let me know and I will start a new thread on First Encounters. On the other hand, if it is ok with you to divert this thread to First Encounters, with your permission I will add a report on my first ever trip to Bangkok here. Best regards, CD

This thread provides an object lesson in how bars differ on different occasions. G Boys was formerly the old XSize in Twilight. One of the first bars to relocate out of Twilight. As XSize its attraction was its range of twinks for all tastes from slightly fem to moderately built and a range of nationalities. Thai, Myanmar, Lao, Cambodian, Vietnamese. However, it was variable. Some nights a stage packed with a multinational array of charming twinks. Some nights walk up the stairs, look, and with a rueful smile descend back to street level. Often on these occasions the authorities were cracking down on non-Thai guys. I had some of my best experiences with guys from there, also the worst. One of the mamasans was my pick for All Time Most Irritating, and I usually get on well with mamasans. Last trip I wanted to see it in its new location and, based on that one visit, I would go back. Twinks of all types, multiple nationalities, two stand-outs. But only three customers. Although to be fair it was quite early. That was September. Now we have reports that December was muscle and January rough trade. My guess is that the Soi Wall Street location is not helping business. Go and take a look. If it is a good night, great. If not, just appraise the room, smile and leave.

BenG1000, there are several countries such as India and Egypt where I follow your Bali routine of no raw food, no fish, no unpeeled fruit, only bottled sparkling mineral water (as it is more difficult for a faker to re-use a bottle and replicate sparkling water) etc. Thailand is not on the list. In fact it is the only country in which I will eat street food. Yes, this is pretty conservative, but I don't have time to be sick. I do not drink the tap water, but I have been known to forget and brush my teeth with it and I am also not all that worried about getting water in my mouth when I shower. So far no ill effects. Ice I am ok with in a cocktail at a high end bar - no ill effects so far. Otherwise - eg ice in a smoothie in a market or on the street - no. Whether I need to be this careful in Bangkok I am not sure, it may just be habitual when traveling. I have only been sick from food once in Thailand, from a fish lunch in Pattaya, and even that was pretty mild on the stomach upset scale. Bangkok has a huge range of food options, from street food to Michelin Starred restaurants, and covering a wide range of cuisines. I recommend you explore the various options for Thai food. Beside avoiding things, I take two precautions when traveling. The first few days I always eat a local natural yoghurt with breakfast. I was told years ago that this helps to get 'good' local bugs into your stomach and helps it to adjust to local food. I rarely have stomach problems when traveling, so maybe this works. I also carry Pepto Bismol tablets just in case.

Regarding taxis, I do not disagree with what others have said, with a caveat. I have not used a taxi from the airport for several years because of problems I experienced several years ago . Once a too-long taxi que. Twice drivers who did not know where the hotel was. One took me to a hotel of a similar-ish name. The other I realized was heading some place that was not my hotel. In both cases I was able to get things back on track by giving them the name of the nearest Skytrain station and then directing them myself when we got there. My Thai business counterparts told me that too many taxi drivers were new to Bangkok and did not really know the city. This was quite a few years back, so it may no longer apply. However, since those experiences I have willingly paid-up to ensure no que and a driver who knows where I am going.

BenG1000, Time from landing to exiting the terminal is a bit random. Business Class with priority you should be fine with getting a short-ish que. The hotel limo is very nice - Mercedes, cold towl etc - but is around 3000bht one way. thelimopattaya is very reliable and about 800bht. You can book on line. Just be sure to confirm which entrance they will meet you at so you can find each other. That time of night the trip into Bangkok will take a bit under an hour. With luck you will be checked in, showered and strolling down Twilight by 1pm

DivineMadman’s phrasing “they discuss us the same way as barista’s” hits the nail on the head. Bad experience, the guys will pass it on for sure, a regular they will discuss with their friends (who are not necessarily the guys in the bar), anything else (including very good tip, nice hotel etc) 50/50 if they discuss or not. Over the years I have experienced the whole range [except the bad experience IMHO ]. For example. One regular, once it was clear I was his regular, did not want me going to his bar. I would give him the bar fine for several days which he paid to the mamasan while I sipped a lime juice in Maxis. He was happy to go to other bars with me, just not his bar. Turns out in his mind he was protecting me from the Mamasan to whom I habitually gave a finder’s fee but he thought was just greedy. Another regular I always met at the bar. When I turned up everyone knew who I was there to meet (many smiles, much fussing while they ‘united’ us). After a couple of years he graduated and got a job back home. On my first visit to the bar after my friend had gone home, the guy I offed clearly had no knowledge of the financial arrangement I had had with my friend. On yet another occasion, on my first night I offed a guy at the buff end of my range of attraction, after a clear discussion of what I wanted. As we left the bar, after waiting for him to change, another guy returned from a short time and literally flashed into my field of vision. Instant mutual attraction. However, I had made the deal for the night and there were several nights to come, so after telling Mr Flash ‘tomorrow’ I left with Mr Buff. Who it turned out, contrary to advertising, was really more top than versatile and wonderfully enthusiastic. With the right stimulus (and also less energetic from jetlag) I can broaden my horizons and be versatile and so that is how things went. An enjoyable night for us both. The next night I went back to check out Mr Flash. Mr Buff was there and we greeted each other, but clearly there had been discussion. My eyes were on Mr Flash, Mr Flash was angling for my attention and Mr Buff was happy to let his fiend reel me in. After confirming he would bottom, we went back to the hotel, where he clearly assumed I would bottom. The guys had been talking. However, I was no longer jet lagged. Luckily the Mamasan had been correct and Mr Flash was versatile bottom rather than top. He became my next regular. Like DivineMadman, once I agree to take a guy off, I let him change. It helps him to feel comfortable that he has sealed the deal for the night and, if I stay to see the show (which is rare), it gives him face rather than sitting in the crowd in his underwear. The guys do seem to enjoy seeing the shows at other bars. Partly I think this is market information (they get to compare their employer to others) and in the case of Bangkok Guy, he enjoys watching the buff guys at Jupiter and Moon Bar, possibly more than I do!

Le Meridien is an easy walk to Soi Twilight. En route you pass an area of street food vendors with plastic tables and chairs. If a guy is hungry (it pays to ask) offer to buy him something here, either to eat at one of the tables or to take back to the hotel. Over the years I have tried the various kinds of Vista room and the Avantec Suites. I have never had a dud room. My only suggestion is to specify a room on a high floor for the view. The Avantec Suites are very nice. If the price works for you budget I would do it, but the other rooms are also good.

BenG1000, you have some pretty good advice already. I very much agree with DivineMadman. Even after visiting Bangkok for a couple of decades, as I only visit once or max twice a year, each time feels new and those butterflies of anticipation never go away. It’s Great! For accommodation my go-to is Le Meridian. If it is within your budget, go for it. Great location, pool, and very companion friendly. They also have a great spa. Nothing like a good Thai massage (you wear a type of pajama, no oil, no ‘extras’, a short lady walks all over you and bends you pretzel shaped) to get the kinks out after a long flight. I have never experienced a guy expecting a larger tip because of the hotel. Like us, the guys like nice things, so I think a nice hotel (especially one that does good Thai food) is a pleasant bonus for them. If you have time, look beyond the gay scene. Bangkok is World Class. Try a couple of Skybars, for example Vertigo at the Banyan Tree or SkyBar at Lebua State Tower. Thai food is excellent. Within walking distance of Le Meridian there are Ruen Urai, Mango Tree, Baan Suriyasai and Papaya. For cocktails you can’t go past Vespers in Soi Convent. For presents for friends and family, try the Royal Thai handicraft center (in a mall somewhere, the concierge will know), Jim Thompson Outlet in the suburbs a couple of blocks from Bang Chak skytrain station or Chatuchak weekend market (if you don’t mind leaving soaked in sweat). The bars continually change, so just go with the flow until you find a guy that clicks. My suggestion for a first evening is: · * Relax with a Thai massage. · * Have a light Thai meal at Ruen Urai. Good food in a relaxed garden setting. · * Go to Vespers for a pre-club cocktail. The walk will get you a little into the beat of Bangkok. Cocktails are excellent. Bar staff are attractive and friendly (professional mixologists, so no this is not a go-go bar) and talking with them will move you into the zone for talking to the ‘bar guys’. · * Don’t head straight to a bar, take a seat in Maxis and people watch for a while. Get a feel for the pulse of the scene. · * Then hit the bars. · * I would start with Dream Boys to level-set. A range of types, helpful non-pushy mamasans, generally a good standard. · * Then, in a hunt for twinks, in no particular order as things change: Fresh Boys (both locations), G-Boys and Classic Boys. · * Opinions vary on Mamasans. I usually work with them as they know the guys, they can interpret and if you find one annoying the blocking hand signal is usually enough. · * Be sure to discuss what you want up-front before you take a guy off. Aligning expectations goes a long way to a happy experience. This may particularly be the case looking for a twink top. However, in my experience, many twinks are versatile and many are tops (to my regret). I do not think you will have a problem. · * As a visitor, particularly not a frequent one, do not get too hung up on prices. You only have so many nights and your airfare and hotel are sunk costs. If you like a guy, better to get him than quibble over what is in effect pocket change compared to your sunk costs. If If you want to take a guy for company to a Skybar or just generally, they will be happy to go with you, but probably better to do it the second time you meet so that you have a connection and the guy can actually be company.

ggobkk, I am really enjoying your report! Thank you for taking the time and the memory to share with us all.

I get alerts from Scotts Cheap Flights. Pretty random, but every so often something comes along that fits my schedule. Opportunistic opportunities aside, I plan trips by using the calendar feature in Google Flights to identify the seasonal trend in prices and spot generally good periods and then the ‘Great Price!’ dots on the Kayak calendar to pick the exact days, assuming I can be that flexible. I always select my seats in advance to avoid middle seats. Sometimes this necessitates calling the airline directly and increasingly it seems you need to pay for this ‘privilege’. I think it is worth it. Trips with multiple destinations get quite tricky. I usually start by using the multi-city options on Kayak and Expedia and see what they come up with. Then I compare the price of the unbundled pieces. Sometimes one is better, sometimes the other and the differences can be surprisingly large at times. However, if a stop is only a connection stop, I always get the single bundled booking on one ticket. That way you just go through transit. No mess with immigration, baggage collection and then finding the different airlines have different baggage rules (on a single ticket the most favorable rules take precedence). If you book separate tickets you have to read each airline’s rules and pack your bags to fit the meanest. As others have pointed out the relative cost of airfare versus accommodation depends on class of travel/type of accommodation/length of stay. On business trips the airfare swamps accommodation costs even when staying at five star hotels. On personal trips I go economy and so the accommodation and other costs – e.g travel to and from the airport, airport car parking, food – can quickly exceed the airfare, particularly for trips of over a week. I like good accommodation, so part of the planning is checking hotel prices to be sure I am not hitting some local demand peak. Usually the airfare and the accommodation costs move in tandem, but not always, so I check both before booking. In the last couple of years I have been looking at both Airbnb and hotels and have used Airbnb about half the time with great success.

A book I enjoyed several years ago was, I think, S P Somtow's 'Jasmine Nights' set in an eccentric Thai family. I need to say 'I think' as I recommended it to a friend who was reading it in his pool, with predictable results, so I can't check on the shelf. I have to admit to a weakness for John Burdett's detective novels, lead character Dective Sonchai Jitpleecheep son of a former 'working girl' and current bar owner. I habitually check to see if he has a new book out whenever I am in Bangkok.

I use thelimopattaya. Once downtown Bangkok to Jomtien. A few times between downtown Bangkok and the airport. You can book on their website. I have found them to be very reliable.

Spoon, your experience rings true with me. I have found that once your trip details are set it pays to contact your regular guy with increasing frequency as the date of your arrival approaches. These guys don't keep appointment calendars a month out or even a week out! Send him the details about a month out. Then weekly until the week of arrival, then daily for 4-5 days before arrival and make sure to message as soon as you arrive in Bangkok if you want to meet that night. It's the mirror image of your departure. He will Line you every day for a week, then drop to weekly, then occasionally. It is some sort of physical proximity = reality lack of physical proximity = unreality sort of thing, at a guess. Before you arrive, the customer in front of him is more real than you, so you need to increase your presence through a lot of messaging. Immediately after you leave, if you have spent a bit of time together, you are still real to him for several days and he maintains contact.

Hank, my experience matches most of the advice others have given you. You can pay the off in advance for as many days as you agree with the guy. The guy may prefer it as it offers more certainty that you are not going to be distracted by another guy and he has your business, he does not have to turn up at the bar each night and being offed for multiple days makes him look successful to his bar friends. As long as you have a good rapport with the guy to start with, from experience it is quite safe to pay the off for days in advance. The guy will not decide that now you have committed your time to him he can slack off. Quite the reverse in fact. Now you have shown commitment to him he is likely to show commitment to you. A positive cycle and one of the reasons I enjoy having a regular guy. The guys are happy to meet you anywhere. If you do not go to the bar at all, so you have not paid the off fee to the bar in advance, a guy’s main concern in meeting outside the bar will be that you pay the off fee in addition to their fee so that they can explain the situation to mamasan and pay the off fee to the bar next time they go there. The guys are happy to see you again no matter how long it has been since your last visit. I am usually only in Bangkok once or twice a year but meeting again after 6-12 months is pretty seamless. All the guys will ask for your contact details and I am strict in only giving my contact details to guys that I have been with several times and think would make a good regular. No one gets my contact details when I butterfly. Communication is pretty light from my end and typically also from theirs. Enough from me that they know I am thinking of them and will see them next time I am in town. Enough from them that I know they will be happy to see me. So far no stories of buffalo-related misfortunes. There is high turnover in the bar guys, one of the reasons I try to get on with the mamasans with whom there is little turnover. Most of my regulars have lasted 12-24 months until they achieved their goal for being in Bangkok (study, raising the cash for a project back on the farm) and returned to their home city/village. However, typically they were in the bar scene for a shorter time, less than 12 months.

Travellerdave, I think it is a bit soon to think of changing your name to TravellerClark and seeking out your long lost parents on Krypton. It is more likely your experience falls within the bounds of normal probability with a smidge of luck thrown in. After 30 encounters in a 30% poz population, there is a 99.998% chance that you had sex with at least one poz partner. However, contact does not imply infection and the chance of becoming infected from this contact depends on a wide range of factors: * The type of sex. You were top, so less risk than bottom. * Viral load of partner. Anywhere from 33% chance of infection for a full viral load partner to a very small chance for a partner with an undetectable viral load. * Presence of STDs * etc, etc My guess is that you are just a guy with normal luck. There are some people with a genetic protection against HIV, but not many, so I would not count on being one of the few. Below is a quote from a 2016 article on this. Researchers are trying to find out why some people carry a genetic mutation that makes them highly resistant to HIV infection. This mutation, called Delta32, keeps a protein called CCR5 from rising to the surface of the immune system’s T cells. When CCR5 is on the surface of the cell, HIV is able to latch on to it and infect the cell; when it is not, the cell’s “door” is effectively closed to HIV. Very few people have this genetic variation, which some scientists think has been inherited from ancestors who survived the massive bubonic plague in Europe centuries ago. About 1% of Caucasians have it, and it is even rarer in Native Americans, Asians, and Africans. A 2005 report indicated that 1% of people descended from Northern Europe are virtually immune to AIDS. Those lucky enough to be resistant must inherit the HIV-shielding genes from both parents, though having only one parent with the mutation still leaves a child better prepared to defend HIV than having none. At least one genetic testing company, 23AndMe.com still does the HIV immunity test (among their battery of tests, not as a stand alone), though many companies that once catered specifically to gay men for the HIV immunity test have closed down.

Finnseventy, Spoon has it right. It is the difference between the probability of a single event and the probability of a sequence of events. They are very different things and the fact that people don't get this difference helps casinos, who often show the results of the last several spins of the roulette wheel in the hope that people seeing three Red in a row will be encouraged to bet big on Black thinking it must be more likely. Well, while the probability of four Red in a row is small, you are not betting on four-red-in-a-row, you are betting on Red in the next spin, which is still 50% (less a little for 0 and 00 depending on the quality of casino at which you play). In discussing PrEP we are making a bet on both the current and the long term probability. We are betting on PrEP not failing us in both the current encounter (92% chance) and in all our encounters, the probability of which is 92%-to-the-power-of-n where n is the number of encounters. If you tossed a coin 100 times and they were all heads, then (I) yes, the probability of a head in the next toss is still 50% but (ii) the probability of 100 heads in a row is so small that you would have a crowd around you. You would be in the Guinness Book of World Records Think about it, if you got 10 heads in a row you would think it was pretty special, let alone 100! I looked for the record number of heads-in-a-row on line and could not find anything, although apparently the record straight run of Red on the Roulette Wheel in Monte Carlo is somewhere in the 30s, which suggests the record run of heads may be around there too. Tom Stoppard's play Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead has Guildenstern flipping a coin while Rosencrantz calls 'heads'. Eventually they get to 92-heads-in-a-row with Guildenstern increasingly concerned and Rosencrantz's money pouch bulging. Someone in a blog has asked how likely this is. Quoting the blog: It is indeed very unlikely to throw 92 heads in a row – perhaps even more unlikely than you might guess at first. Assuming that the probability of any one coin landing heads is 0.5, and that the coin throws are mutually independent of one another, the probability of 92 coins landing heads in a row is equal to 0.5-to-the-power-of-92 – that is, 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 ... 92 times. And that is a very small number – approximately 0.0000000000000000000000000002 or 1 in 5000 trillion trillion. This figure is too small to even properly get one’s head around. This is (much) less than the chance of two people being asked to randomly choose a single grain of sand from anywhere on the Earth and happening to choose exactly the same one.

Ok, probability is tricky and as lwh101 pointed out I got it a bit wrong in my last post (mixing up probability of contracting HIV with probability of exposure to it), so here goes with what I hope is both a clear and an accurate explanation. The probability of a single event and the probability of multiple events are different things. Use the toss of a coin as an example. The odds of heads or tails are 50% on each toss. The odds of heads on any single occasion, the first toss of the coin or the 20th toss, is always 50%. However, the odds of any particular sequence of heads or tails over multiple tosses is very different. The odds of six straight heads in a row is not 50%, the odds of heads on each separate toss, but 50%-to-the-power-of-6, which is 15.6%. If you are a gambler, you would give 50% odds on the outcome of a single toss, but if you gave 50% odds on the outcome of six-in-a-row you would be taken to the cleaners. It is the same with PrEP. The odds of PrEP blocking the virus on each individual occasion are 92%, but the odds of PreP blocking the virus every time on n occasions are 92%-to-the-power-of-n. As 92% is < 1, the larger n is, the smaller 92%-to-the-power-of-n becomes. However, this whole thing is a lot more complex than just the success or failure rate of PrEP. We have three variables in play (my mistake in my last post was to stop at two variables, the problem of responding in the moment rather than thinking it out a bit more). a) The probability of PrEP blocking the virus. 92%. b) The probability of having sex with someone who is poz. This varies with the population. In the Thai gay male population generally, 30%. c) The probability of contracting the virus from a poz partner on any single occasion. This ranges from 33% for someone with a full viral load to a very low number for someone on meds who has managed their condition to an undetectable load. As there are three variables, as the variation in the last one is pretty wide and as there are also other factors at play which affect the probability (How regularly is PrEP used? Presence of another STD which increases the probability of HIV transmission? Type of sexual encounter?) I am not going to try to estimate the probability of contracting HIV if PrEP fails in Thailand as it would be a very subjective and possibly misleading number. Rather, the two tables below give an idea of the degree to which PrEP provides additional protection. Whether this is enough for you to feel confident in using it will I think depend on your personal risk tolerance, the time horizon over which you are thinking and the number of sexual encounters you expect to have over that time horizon. The first table looks at the general risk of PrEP failing during extended use. This is simply the probability of PrEP failing, not the risk of exposure or contracting the virus. The second table looks at the risk during extended use in the Thai gay population of PrEP failing during an encounter with a poz partner. This is the risk of potential exposure to a poz partner but not the risk of infection as that risk additionally depends on the viral load of the partner. What this shows is that while the chances of PrEP failing to work during sex with a poz partner are small on any single occasion, cumulatively over time the more sexually active you are the more likely it is that PrEP will fail on you at least once with a poz partner. This is the sort of risk best thought about over a long time frame, not this week’s party planning. If you are 20, how many sexual encounters do you expect to have had by 30? By 40? By 50? (1) Probability of PrEP failing to block PrEP Generally Interpretation Probability of blocking / not blocking 92% / 8% In any single encounter the probability of PrEP on a single occasion failing to block is 8% Number of sexual encounters before the probability of failure to block rises just above 50% 8 to 9 After 8 to 9 encounters the cumulative probability of PrEP failing to block at least once is just over 50% Number of sexual encounters before the probability 60 After 60 encounters the cumulative probability of of failure to block rises to just over 99% PrEP failing to block at least once is just over 99% (2) Probability of exposure to a poz partner PrEP in Thai gay male Interpretation Population, 30% poz rate Probability of not exposure / exposure to a 97% / 3% In any single encounter the probability of both poz partner on a single occasion (i) PrEP fails and (ii) your partner is poz, is 3% Number of sexual encounters before the 22 to 23 After 22 encounters in a 30% poz population the probability of (i) PrEP failing with (ii) a poz the probability that (i) PrEP fails during (ii) an partner, rises to just over 50% encounter with a poz partner is just over 50%. This is not the same as the probability of Infection which depends additionally on the viral load of your partner. Number of sexual encounters before the 160 After 160 encounters the probability that you probability of exposure to a poz partner have been exposed to a poz partner is just over rises to just over 99% 99%. This is not the same as the probability of infection which depends additionally on the viral load of your partner. The third table tries to get more of a handle on the additional protection provided by PrEP by comparing unprotected sex and bareback sex with PrEP in the riskiest case: sex with only a poz partner with a high viral load. In this case it is possible to estimate the probability of contracting HIV. With PrEP the cumulative risk of infection is lower – 27 encounters to increase the risk of infection to over 50% as opposed to 2 without PrEP and 160 encounters before the probability of infection rises above 99% compared to 60 without PrEP. Again, while PrEP clearly lowers the risk, it is a risk that needs to be considered over the long term. Over what time period are you thinking of using PrEP in otherwise unprotected sex and how many encounters will you have in that time period? (3) Sex with high viral load partner Unprotected sex with PrEP + bareback a high viral load partner with a high viral load partner Probability of not contracting / contracting HIV on a single occasion 66.6% / 33.3% 97.4% / 2.6% Number of sexual encounters before the probability of contraction rises to just over 50% 2 26 to 27 Number of sexual encounters before the probability of contraction rises to just over 99% 60 160 For myself, until there is a cure for AIDs, I will view PrEP as a very useful supplement to safe sex, but not safe sex by itself.

I think Terry4 makes a good point, although it could have been made just as effectively without the reference to generations dying off. I went back through my posts and although I thought I used 'guys' more frequently I see I actually mix it up with 'boys'. So guys it is from now on.

There seems to be a mistaken belief, not just on the part of Terry4 and lwh101 but more widely in the younger gay crowd, that using PrEP protects you from HIV to such an extent that we can return safely to the old pre-AIDs condom-free days. I wish, but alas once you get your head around the difference between single event probability and cumulative probability, it just isn't so. PrEP is a great resource for those times when we get carried away in the moment as lwh101 did. However it is completely insufficient protection for multiple repeated exposure. On a one-off basis an approximate 92% blocking rate is pretty good. But there is a big difference between the single occasion odds of 92% success (assuming proper use) and the odds over multiple exposures. Again, here is the math. In a population with a 30% poz rate, somewhere between your 22nd and 23rd 'natural' encounter the odds of you contracting HIV will have passed 50%. Maybe somewhere around the end of your second week in Thailand? From that point on it is literally a coin toss whether you are poz or not. Unless you get tested, it is also a coin toss from that point on whether or not you are infecting others. The full disclosure statement at that point would be: "I am on PrEP, you will be my 24th natural fuck, is a 50% chance of HIV infection ok with you?" To make the point about repeated exposure more graphic, lets say you have only one sexual partner and he is poz. So the PrEP needs to work every time if you are to avoid HIV. In this scenario the chance that you have contracted HIV goes over 50% somewhere between your 8th and 9th encounter. Probably less than a weeks worth of deliriously natural sex before the odds turn against you.

It takes some self-restraint to write this with pen and ink rather than something more caustic. I am part of the age-cohort of gay men most impacted by AIDs in which 42% of white males and 60% of black males, around 50% in total, have contracted HIV by age 50. Several friends are researchers who have made a contribution to containing the disease. So I have a certain perspective which I do not think is, as yet, overtaken by events. PrEP is a very valuable medication to prevent transmission in the case of mishaps and oversights. That is why it was approved by WHO. It has up to a 92% ability to prevent transmission of HIV when used on a daily basis. However, its effectiveness is dependent on proper and regular use. Properly used daily, it has an 8% failure rate, which rises as high as 56% with erratic use. Let’s assume we are reasonably reliable people and the failure rate in our case is 10%. Much as I fondly remember the sensation of unprotected sex, a 10% chance of a loaded chamber is too close to Russian Roulette for me to consider dancing with gay abandon and declaring “rubbers away!” Then consider the cumulative probability of contracting HIV with a 10% prophylactic failure rate in population which is approximately 30% poz. The chance of contracting HIV on any one occasion is 10%x30%=3%. The chance of avoiding contracting HIV on multiple occasions with multiple random partners drawn from this population is 97%-to-the-power-of-n, where n is the number of partners you sleep with. The chance of contracting HIV at least one time is 1-(97%-to-the-power-of-n). Here are the odds of contracting HIV over multiple partners: # Partners Prob of No Infection Prob of Infection 1 a moment’s forgetfulness 97% 3% 7 a relaxed week in Boystown 81% 19% 14 an energetic week 65% 35% 28 a repeat visit 43% 57% 58 a third visit 18% 82% 100 a dedicated orgiastic month 4.75% 95.25% There is no cure for HIV. It can be managed, but once you contract it you have it for life. If you are responsible that means telling every potential partner, before you have sex, that you are poz. It is a non-curable potentially deadly communicable disease. They have the right to make the choice. I never want to repeat the harrowing lunch I had with a young friend whose partner had convinced him that as they were in a monogamous relationship they could forego safe sex, only to give him HIV. Additionally, PrEP provides no protection against general STDs – syphilis, gonorrhea, herpes etc. If you had unprotected sex with a single other person in a remote Bavarian village, the potential for contagion would be de minimis. By having unprotected sex with multiple partners who themselves have sex with multiple partners, who then have sex with multiple partners, etc (gay Bangkok in other words) you are establishing yourself as a vector for contagion. Not a life-goal. And finally, but far from least, the boys. All the ones I have offed for many years have understood safe sex and want to practice it. I respect that wish. I think we should all respect it.

While I think you are very lucky to have a good Thai cook as a partner, I can see why a change of pace to Western food will appeal and the Western restaurants are good. Given how confident and outgoing Bangkok Guy is I still do not really understand his reaction to that particular group. It was a group of older couples, older than most people we had seen out dining and possibly wealthier as I think they matched up with a clutch of Bentleys in restaurant's courtyard.

As many days followed a similar pattern which risks becoming repetitious in the telling, I will end this report with a summary of a few observations and lessons learned. This was not a normal trip for me. It was the longest time I have ever spent in Bangkok, the longest consecutive number of days I have spent with the same guy, no butterflying and Bangkok Guy is the only bar guy I have taken to serious restaurants, the most I have done in the past is a skybar for a drink or two. I am very comfortable with Bangkok Guy, he is very presentable (I would take a bet that I could take him to any country, any place and, apart from the Spring/Autumn thing, no one would bat an eye or think he did not belong) and we both like jazz and good food. With that as background, here are some thoughts/observations. · With the exception of Bangkok Guy (or his clone) I would not take a bar guy beyond a general restaurant. · The street food and general restaurant food is all you need. Seriously. · If you are into food, the up-market Thai restaurants are worth going to for a treat. · Up-market European restaurants should be avoided for two reasons. (i) While they are good, they hold up in a comparison with similar restaurants overseas, in Bangkok they lose-out in comparison to up-market Thai restaurants. (ii) There is a much higher chance of encountering Hi-So Thais whose presence will make your companion uncomfortable. · If you can find out in advance, select up-market restaurants where the seating is more intimate so that your companion feels that they are with you and not generally on display to the room. A good general rule according to Bangkok Guy and also helps avoid Hi-So sightlines. · The jazz scene is great but it needs a calendar so you can see who is playing where each night. I have not been able to find one. · The skybars and the increasing proliferation of nightlife beyond the gay scene is fantastic. · The gay scene is alive and well. Reports of its imminent demise are over-stated. The change is in the clientele who are now predominately Asian and younger. I enjoy the improved audience aesthetic. J My experience of the pricing structure of dining, for two people excluding alcohol, is as follows: · Street food. 100-150bt. Simple good food. Tasty and you could happily live off two meals a day. If you off a guy and suspect he might be hungry, offer to buy him some of this. You will enjoy eating it too. · General restaurant. 500-700bt. For 5x the cost of street food you get air-conditioning, a more substantial meal and better quality. You could live off one of these meals a day. You may also get entertainment, for example karaoke or descent live music. You do not need more than this and your companion will feel well-treated. · Up-market Thai restaurant. 3000-4000bt. For 6x the cost of a regular restaurant and 30x the cost of street food you are getting multiple courses (Bangkok Guy and I usually had five including dessert), roughly 3-4x the amount of food? You are very full after this meal. There is a much wider selection of dishes, the food is excellent and the difference in quality over a regular restaurant is enough to appreciate. The ambience of the restaurant is also multiple notches above a regular restaurant. Menus and service are in Thai (and English) so your companion will be comfortable. You can boost his status and let him select the food. If you enjoy food and there is a guy you like, well worth a treat. · Up-market European restaurant. 5000-6000+bt. For 1.5x-2x the cost of up-market Thai you may have less fun. The menu will be in the language of the cuisine plus English. It will not be in Thai. The staff will not speak Thai unless you request them to and even then they may squirm. Your companion’s hand will need to be held through this. You also run a higher chance of encountering a party of Hi-So Thais who you will not differentiate from any other group of well-heeled diners but your companion will, and he will not be comfortable being in a direct sight line. We had one Hi-So encounter and although he got over it – we placed him with his back to them and by the third course he found the food prep at the table too interesting to not film – the strength of his reaction surprised me, even though I know Thailand to be very hierarchical. We discussed it over drinks at Vespers the next evening and the nuances were very difficult for me to understand. As best as I can grasp it, he felt that the restaurant was ‘their place’ and as such they would not like him, a very poor person, being somewhere that was ‘their place’. Our favorite restaurant was Baan Suriyasai, to which we returned. To my mind it was the most traditionally classy in a beautifully restored old house with great attention to detail. We both thought it had the best food. Bangkok Guy additionally liked the fact that we got our own little room. “Just me with you”.