Gaybutton

Yesterday Prime Minister Abhisit and the Red-Shirt leaders sat down together to try to work out, through negotiations, a settlement and end to Thailand's current political crisis. It was all done "in the sunshine," meaning that the entire meeting, which lasted more than three hours, was shown live on television for all to see. The negotiations are continuing today. The following commentary appears in the BANGKOK POST: _____ Reasoned Discussion Offers Way Forward Published: 29/03/2010 The government and the red shirt leaders' decision to sit down for talks to settle the continuing political conflict is most welcome. Although the positions of the two parties remained far apart at the end of their three-hour meeting yesterday, it began a long-overdue process to resolve the differences between the groups. Needless to say, the two-week stand-off between the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) and the government has caused much anxiety for all Thais. The massive street gatherings and the deployment of security forces in the capital have disrupted the lives of Bangkokians. They have also caused immeasurable damage to the economy. A series of dramatic stunts staged by the red shirts in which protesters were sent to military barracks and other public and private places have increased the danger of violence. A series of bomb attacks on government buildings, state-run TV stations and commercial banks are strong indicators that the "peaceful" protest might not remain that way for long. Those behind these subversive plots - regardless of their motivations - must be condemned. With or without the red shirts' knowledge, these senseless and barbaric acts must stop if all stakeholders in the present dispute are sincere in wanting to lead the country out of its sorry state. Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva should be commended for being open-minded in embracing the peace talks with the UDD leaders. His decision to welcome them at the negotiating table has helped significantly ease the political tensions that have gripped Bangkok for the past fortnight. With the prime minister and the red shirt leaders agreeing to resume talks later today, it is hoped both sides will come up with more accommodating propositions to make the peace talks fruitful. The red shirt leaders in particular must demonstrate more sincerity and flexibility. Their offer to give the government two more weeks to dissolve the lower house is still far from acceptable as it fails to explain how this will lead to reconciliation. Mr Abhisit has already made clear that he does not object to a snap election but prefers to see some fundamental rules in place to ensure a lasting reconciliation in the country. These may involve constitutional amendments and guarantees that all parties will accept election results. He suggested at the talks that concerned parties work out a clear road map to provide a basis for a new election before the lower house is dissolved. This proposal is reasonable and should be supported by the red shirts if they are sincere about their calls for true democracy in Thailand.

Today I paid a visit. I think, rather than write my opinion, I'll stick simply to the facts of what I saw and let you form your own opinions. First, the sign outside does say, "Thai boys free." I asked if there are any age restrictions. I was told that as long as it's a Thai male, age 18 or over, he gets in free no matter how old he is. The food is all Thai food, mostly in the 60 to 150 baht range. There are various massages available. A standard or oil massage costs 300 baht plus tip for the boy. More expensive massages, such as foam massages or Jacuzzi massages are between 600 to 700 baht. The massage rooms are located upstairs. You have to climb several flights of steep stairs to get to the massage rooms or any of the facilities other than the ground floor bar and restaurant area.. I noticed the steps are all tiled with smooth tile and only some of the flights have handrails. The saunas are small cubicles in the massage rooms. These are not large, public saunas such as you would find at Sansuk or Babylon. These are small, private cubicles big enough for you and one or two boys. There were two such cubicles. There are also two Jacuzzis, also located on the upper floors. These are both 2 to 3 man bathtub-type Jacuzzis. Both were empty and apparently are filled with use of a standard shower head and on-demand water heater. There is an additional charge if you wish to use the Jacuzzis. There is 1 dry heat sauna. It appeared to be big enough for 4 or 5 people. The venue was spotlessly clean and the Thai manager was enthusiastic about showing me around. While I was there, from about 4:00pm to 4:45pm there were no customers and no boys other than the boys who work there.

A System Restore to a date before the problem first occurred might do the trick.

I haven't been in there yet, but given that it's in the middle of the gay bars of Jomtien Complex and given that Thai boys get in free, I would guess it's much more likely to be similar to Sansuk and Babylon. We'll know for sure soon enough.

If it were me I would probably just forget about it.

This evening I was walking around Jomtien Complex with a friend. When we passed Monty's we saw several people eating there. I said I didn't know Monty's started serving food again. One boy overheard and said the food comes from the Black Cat, just across the street. Huh? What? The Black Cat had closed after having been open for only a few weeks. Now it's open again. I had no idea they had reopened. My friend told me they actually reopened about two weeks ago. They're open from 1:00pm to midnight. Farang pay 120 baht to use the sauna. Thai boys get in free. We were on our way elsewhere when we passed by, so I'm sorry, but I didn't look at their menu. I'll try to get down there within the next several days. Meanwhile, if any of you have been there, please tell us about it.

Ok, ok . . . next time I'll read it.

Thank you, travelerjim. Great eye candy! Now all you need to do is give those models some of our phone numbers. You can start with mine . . .

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They no longer require address evidence when making the 90-day address report? I did mine 2 months ago and handed the officer address evidence, which was a bill in my name received by "snail mail," along with my passport. I didn't wait to be asked for it. But the officer did keep it and staple it to the back of the report. I'm due to report again in about a month. I'll take address evidence with me, but instead of handing it over with my passport, I'll wait to see if I'm asked for it. If anyone does the report before I do, if you do the same thing I'm planning to do please let us know if they ask you for the evidence or not. Since I haven't seen anything official that says they've dropped the requirement, I'm interested to know whether Immigration is consistent about it. If I recall correctly, the reason they wanted the evidence in the first place was because they were getting too many false address reports. I really don't see these things as anything more than an annoyance when they do one thing with one person, but something different with someone else. There doesn't seem to be any reliable consistency. So, I'll bring along solid address evidence and I'll make sure I have a least 10,000 baht in the bankbook when I go in to renew my visa. It would be nice if they publicize a set of requirements and stick to them. No matter what they do, there always seems to be some sort of confusion associated with it. I also recall that a few years ago Immigration was saying they intended to do random checks by personally visiting reported addresses to see if the farang was actually living at the address he had reported. Was anyone ever visited? I never was. Maybe they were afraid if they visited me, I'd ask them to clean my house . . .

Yes. Casa Pascal does not charge for water. It's free.

The article you found says a copy of the bank book including the last 3 months activity is new to me. All I've ever been asked for was the identity page and the same-day update showing how much is currently in the account. Nothing was ever said about showing 3 months worth of activity. That article also makes a reference to someone who, in June 2009, reported that the immigration officer said your bankbook should show at least 10,000 baht present. That probably was me. That's exactly what the immigration officer told me and I posted about it, and it was last June. The reason that was even mentioned was because of the fact that Bangkok Bank now requires two accounts if your funds come in from a foreign source. One is your "regular" bank account and the other is a receive-only account for the incoming foreign direct deposits. When I receive the money in my receive-only account by direct deposit, I immediately transfer all but 500 baht into my regular account. I always leave 500 baht in the receive-only account just to have something in there, although a Bangkok Bank official told me you can zero out an account and the account will still remain valid for one year before they close it out. But I like to leave a minimal amount in the account anyhow. I went to immigration with my receive-only bank book. So, the officer's eyebrows were raised when she saw only 500 baht in the account. But all was well when I explained and showed where my monthly income had also been deposited into that account. That's when she said she'll approve my visa renewal, but from now on, please bring a bank book that shows at least 10,000 baht present in the account. One other thing . . . I have always been asked to show evidence of my address when I am renewing my visa. The article doesn't mention that, but I advise bringing that evidence along with you anyway, in case you are asked. Last year we had two threads about the retirement visa and the latest regulations. I suggest having a look at both: http://www.gaythailand.com/forums/GT-f1/Gay-Thailand-f3/Retirement-Visa-information-t4248.html http://www.gaythailand.com/forums/GT-f1/Gay-Thailand-f3/Documents-required-Retirement-Visa-t4261.html

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Here is a copy of my Retirement Visa article. I haven't updated it since last year, but the basic requirements are still the same: _____ How to Obtain the Thailand Retirement Visa **** Updated May 9, 2008 **** Several different web sites include articles and messages that explain how to go about obtaining the Thailand Retirement Visa. Some of those make it seem enormously complicated and difficult to do, so many "farang" choose to do the visa runs instead. (Note: There have been rule changes since this article was first written. You can still do visa runs, but Thailand only allows that for 180 cumulative days per year. The other 180 days must be spent outside of Thailand.) Having obtained the retirement visa myself, only one day prior to the first writing of this article, I now know that nothing could be further from the truth. The articles and messages that tell you how terribly difficult it is to get the visa must have been written by people that just don't know what they're talking about. It turned out to be very easy to do. Here is my version of the experience: First, many of you may not be aware that you can obtain the retirement visa once in Thailand, and you can also obtain it from your home country via the Embassy of Thailand or your nearest Thai Consulate. IMPORTANT RULE CHANGE: You may be happy to know that Thailand no longer requires applicants for the retirement visa to enter with at least a Type "O" non-immigrant visa. Now, at least at the Pattaya immigration office, you can enter Thailand without a visa at all, except of course the 30-day visa-upon-arrival you receive at the airport. Provided you have the other necessary documents, the immigration office will convert the visa-upon-arrival to a Type "O" non-immigrant visa, which you pay for on the spot. The fee is 1900 baht. Then, they will immediately start the process of converting your new Type "O" visa into the retirement visa. Now you have to pay another 1900 baht, right then and there. In other words, make sure you have 3800 baht with you when you go to the immigration office to pay for the visas. In Pattaya ATMs are virtually everywhere you look. Wouldn't you think there would be at least one ATM at the immigration office? No, that would make too much sense. The nearest ATM to the immigration office is several blocks away, so be sure you have enough cash with you when you go. As many of you know, the financial requirement to obtain the visa is your choice of two methods. One is to have a minimum of 800,000 baht, the equivalent of about US $25,500 at exchange rates current at the time of this revision, on deposit in a Thai bank account. The money must be on deposit a minimum of three months before Immigration will accept it. If your financial situation is anything like mine, then good luck with that one! That is a fairly new requirement. You could have ten-billion baht on deposit, but Immigration won't accept it unless it has been there for at least three months. If your money has not been on deposit for at least three months, then you'll either have to get a proof-of-income statement from your embassy or do a visa run. The other choice, the one I selected, is to have a Thai bank account, and if that account holds less than 800,000 baht then you must show proof-of-income. The proof-of-income must be generated by the statement from your embassy. No other form of proof will be accepted. Those of you who are going to enter using only the visa-on-arrival may run into a slight problem if you don't already have a Thai bank account. Several banks require a non-immigrant visa in order to open an account. The visa-on-arrival is a tourist visa, not a non-immigrant visa. I do know that Siam Commercial Bank, and there are plenty of branch offices, still lets people open bank accounts with a tourist visa. Just make sure you explain that you need the account in order to get the retirement visa. Most likely several other banks also still allow people to open account with a visa-on-arrival, but you may have to shop around. Most Thai banks have online banking available, including online bill payment. Some banks will let you start online banking with your visa-on-arrival and some won't let you until you have the retirement visa. I know that both Siam Commercial Bank and Bank of Ayudhya do let you start online banking with a visa-on-arrival. I also know that Bangkok Bank requires the retirement visa first. Obtaining the proof-of-income is the easiest thing in the world if you are a US citizen. I cannot speak for other countries, but all a US citizen needs to do is go to the Embassy of the United States of America in Bangkok. The telephone number for U.S. Citizens Services is 02-205-4049. They can tell you how to get there, but most taxi drivers know. In case your taxi driver is clueless, if you are carrying a mobile phone, they can talk directly to the taxi driver and tell him how to get there. If not, then you can have someone at your hotel write the address for you, and then show it to the taxi driver. The embassy keeps rather odd hours. They are open from 7:30 AM to 11:00 AM. Then they reopen from 1:00 PM to 2:00 PM. I kept wondering who goes to the embassy at 7:30 AM. If you are not a US citizen, then I suggest checking with your own embassy or consulate about their hours. Make sure to get there within those hours unless you like the idea of having to come back the next day. Upon entry to the embassy you will be required to turn off your mobile phone, if you are carrying one, and you will have to leave it with the security guard. You also will have to pass through a metal detector. Once you get past that, just follow the signs to the U.S. Citizens Services area. Only a few Americans are likely to be there and the waiting time is usually short. (Note: The US Embassy now accepts online appointments. You don't have to make the appointment if you prefer not to, but you're much better off if you do. Eventually the Embassy will require the appointment. Details are at the end of this article.) When you enter the Services area, you'll immediately notice that's where all the Thai people went as well. However, as soon as you go through the door, turn to your right. That's where you'll see the U.S. Citizens Services window. The Thai people were all in a much larger room, patiently waiting their turn to do whatever they do to obtain a visa to travel to the United States. By the way, if you are in need of any income tax forms, they are available there as well. At the service window tell the clerk that you need a proof-of-income statement. You will be given a short form to fill out, and that's where you'll write down your monthly income. You must have your passport with you. You will be asked to produce it. When you finish filling out the form, which will take less than a minute . . . it's very short . . . you go to the cashier window and pay the fee. The fee is US $30 or 1200 baht. It's your choice as to pay with dollars or baht. Then you go back to the clerk's window, give him the form, your passport, and the receipt for the fee payment. They'll ask you to sit down and wait. About ten minutes later you'll be called to the window and the notarized and sealed document will be given to you, along with your passport. Also, if you are living in Thailand and your passport is about to expire, did you know you can get a new passport at the embassy? They'll take your old one from you, and issue the new one. The trouble is, it will require two visits to the embassy. The first visit is to fill out the application and submit your old passport. The second visit, several days later, is to pick up your new passport. If you don't need a new passport, but do need additional passport pages, the embassy can take care of that too. I could be wrong, but I think additional passport pages are free of charge. Some people are under the impression that you must return to U.S. soil every 5 years or you'll lose your citizenship. That is utter nonsense. Just to be sure, I personally checked with the State Department, and they confirmed that you can live wherever you want, as long as you want, and you do not lose your citizenship under any circumstances unless you revoke it yourself. Even then, as far as IRS is concerned, you are a citizen no matter what. In other words, there is no requirement about returning to U.S. soil. I have been asked many times over the years what kind of proof you have to show the embassy, regarding your monthly income. Would you believe none at all? I started to hand my proof to the clerk, an American. She stopped me and said, "You don't need that. We simply take your word for it." Meanwhile, I had gone to all kinds of trouble to get certified proof of income to take to the embassy, and it turned out they are not interested at all. "We simply take your word for it." Ok, fine with me. I could have told the embassy I make more money than Bill Gates and they would have taken my word for it. So, with the proof-of-income statement in hand I returned to Pattaya. A new requirement is a letter from your Thai bank, guaranteeing that you have an account and that you make sufficient deposits into it, whether personally or by direct deposit, and that your retirement income is generated from outside of Thailand. Just why they need that I don't know, because they look at your updated passbook anyhow, but that's the requirement. You need to go to the branch at which you opened your account. If you opened your account in another city, then check with a local branch first, but you're probably going to have to make a trip to the city in which you opened your account. Most banks charge a fee of 200 baht for the document. When you receive it, everything will be written in Thai except your name. Make sure they spelled your name correctly. As soon as I received the document, I headed over to the Immigration Police office (now located at Jomtien Beach, Soi 5). When you enter you will see a ticket machine. Press the button for "Retirement Visa." A slip of paper with a number printed on it will emerge. When that number is called they will announce, in English, which window you will serve you. You will be asked to fill out two of the visa extension forms, and you'll see those forms on top of the clerks' counter. Again, you must have your passport, proof-of-income statement (or your bank book if you have the 800,000 baht), and two passport photos. You will also be asked to produce your Thai bank book. You will need an additional photocopy of each. It did not occur to me to bring my bank book with me. There is a small copying shop right around the corner from the police office if you need additional copies of anything. The shop charges the same rate as any other shop in town. Believe it or not, they accepted photocopies of my Thai ATM cards and my latest ATM receipt in lieu of the bankbook. I had withdrawn some money from an ATM before going to the police station, and the receipt shows your present account balance. It is best, however, to take your bank book with you, but be sure you have first gone to your bank and gotten your bank book updated. They want to see that they are looking at a bank book that was updated the same day you go to the Immigration Police office. They will not accept a bank book that was updated prior to the day you go, and they'll tell you to go to the bank and get an update before they can proceed. Apparently, all that interested the Immigration Police was proof that you have a Thai bank account at all, and that you at least have some money in it, if you are using the proof-of-income method. The fee for the Retirement Visa is 1900 baht. A police clerk will take the fee and examine your documents. If there are any errors or omissions the clerk will help you. If any additional photocopies are needed, you will be sent to that same copying service just outside the police office. You will be asked to sign some documents as well. On the application form you are asked to state the reason why you want an extension of your current visa. I wrote only two words, "retirement visa." That was perfectly acceptable. In other words, you don't have to write an essay to explain your reasons for the extension request. Once your documentation is accepted you will be asked to wait for an interview. An English speaking officer conducts the interview. The main thing they want is some sort of documentation that shows where you will be living. I had brought with me proof that I will be in a house and that I hold a 30-year lease on the house. That was readily accepted. There is really nothing to worry about. If you have done the same thing, then bring the documentation with you. If you bought a condo, then bring the documentation with you. If you are renting, then bring documentation. Once everything is accepted, your passport will be taken and held. You will be told to come back the next morning and the visa will be ready. You will be given a small card with a claim number on it. When you return the next morning give the card to the same officer that conducted the interview. You will be given your passport and the visa will be in place. That's all there is to it. Other than the tedium of having to go to Bangkok to get the proof-of-income statement from the embassy it was no problem at all. My original plan was to hire a lawyer to help me through everything, but I decided to first try it on my own. It really was very simple, and if you are going to get the retirement visa for yourself, it ought to be just as simple. Why in the world anyone that intends to reside permanently in Thailand would do visa runs instead of obtaining the retirement visa goes beyond me, unless they don't meet the income requirements or minimum age (50 years old). Now you know, however, that even if your income is less than the legal requirement, the embassy, at least the American embassy, is going to give you a proof-of-income statement that shows an income of whatever you tell them it is. You have to spend much more money to do visa runs, not to mention going through a tedious all-day trip at the very least. Getting the retirement visa was no problem at all, and it is good for a full year. Once you have it, the only requirement is to visit the Immigration Police office once every 90 days and report your address. With visa runs you would have to make the run every 90 days anyway and now you can do that only twice. Given the choice of holding the retirement visa and dropping by the Immigration Police office every 90 days, or going on a visa run every 90 days, I'll take the retirement visa. As I said at the beginning of this article, I've seen web sites and message boards that make it seem grueling and complicated to get the retirement visa. If it helps anything, I thought so too until I did it myself. They list all kinds of requirements and make it appear to be a difficult, complex procedure. Perhaps that scares people into thinking doing visa runs is much easier. Not so. Just the opposite is true. Getting the retirement visa was as simple as I've outlined here. The hardest part of the whole thing was making the trip to Bangkok to get the proof-of-income statement from the embassy. If anyone tries to tell you that it's hard to get the retirement visa, then, with all due respect, they are just plain wrong. There are a few other notes about which you need to be aware: 1. Despite the fact that your visa-on-entry is good for 30 days or your Type "O" non-immigrant visa is good for 90 days, your year-long retirement visa will expire one year from the date on which you first entered Thailand with the Type "O" Visa. In other words, if you entered Thailand with the Type "O" visa on June 8, but waited until September 5 to get the retirement visa because you figured you might as well use the three months first, then you're in for a disappointment. Your year-long visa will still expire June 7 of the following year. 2. If you fail to go to the Immigration Police office to report your address by the 90th day, then you are subject to a 5000 baht fine, plus an additional 200 baht per day fine. You are also subject to revocation of your visa. How do you know the deadline date? No problem. They will staple the deadline date into your passport. 3. If you are going to travel to any destination outside of Thailand, then you must first report to the Immigration Police office to obtain a re-entry permit. Failure to do so will render your retirement visa null and void. When you reenter Thailand, you can disregard the date stapled into your passport for reporting your address. You do not have to go to Immigration and report your address until 90 days after you reenter Thailand. Just make sure you're not a day or two late. Go a few days before the 90th day and you'll be safe. 4. When it is time to report your address, you may do so at any Immigration Police office in Thailand. You do not necessarily have to report your address at the same office at which you originally obtained your visa. 5. Even though you will not be using your departure card now, unless you choose to, do not remove it from your passport. When you receive back your passport with the retirement visa in place, the departure card will still be stapled into your passport. Leave it there. Never remove anything from your passport without first asking the Immigration Police. 6. Remember, with the retirement visa you cannot work. That means you cannot work for pay and you cannot do any form of work at all, even if it is just helping your friend on his job. The only exception is official volunteer work sponsored by the Thai or local government. Anything that could be construed as taking work away from a Thai citizen will render your retirement visa null and void, will result in your arrest, and you are subject to deportation and blacklisting, which means you will never be allowed back into Thailand for the rest of your life. If you have any doubts at all as to whether what you wish to do is permissible, then go to the Immigration Police and ask first. With the retirement visa you cannot work. As a matter of fact, you cannot work with any visa at all unless you have obtained a Thai work permit. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it, and the police do not play games when it comes to immigration violations. If you are caught working, then get ready to spend a lot of time in jail and then be deported and blacklisted. Some people try to gain extra income by teaching English, or whatever the language is. Do not do that. Those people are a deportation waiting to happen. Without a work permit, you cannot work . . . period. 7. When you renew your visa, the renewal period begins one year from the date of your old visa, regardless of the date you apply for the renewal. 8. When you renew your visa the deadline date by which you must report your address does not change. For example, if you previously were required to report your address on September 2, but went to renew your visa on August 28, you still must go back and report your address by September 2. If the address reporting deadline happens to be close to the date on which you pick up your passport after they give you the visa, you can report your address at the same time you pick up the passport if you wish. 9. You must produce the letter from the bank regardless of whether you are using the 800,000 baht in your account method or the proof-of-income statement method. All you have to do is go to your bank and say, "I need letter for immigration." The bank will know exactly what you need. 10. NEW RULE: Thailand now requires those who are using the proof-of-income statement to obtain a new statement each year. Using the same statement several times used to be acceptable. Thailand has changed that. The Immigration officer will keep your original proof-of-income statement and you must get a new one each year. 11. NEW RULE: To alleviate any confusion, you do not need a health certificate in order to obtain the retirement visa. Immigration used to require one, but now that requirement has been rescinded. 12. Just follow the course of action I've outlined, get the documents together, and you too can retire in paradise. If you have any questions, please feel free to post your questions on the web site's message board or feel free to send me an E-mail at gaybutton@gmail.com . I'll be happy to answer. If you want me to go with you when you apply, I'll be happy to do that too. US Embassy Online Appointments: The American Citizen Services section introduced an appointment system for all non-emergency services to include notarials, passport services, and Consular Reports of Birth Abroad. We will continue to provide emergency services on an as needed basis. **Appointments can be made online at: https://evisaforms.state.gov/acs/default.asp?postcode=BNK&appcode=1 This link can also be accessed by going to our website at: Citizen Services - U.S. Embassy Bangkok, Thailand We will not be able to book appointments over the phone. The purpose of the appointment system is to cut wait times for services and allow us to provide you with better service as demand for our services continues to grow. As we transition to the new appointment system, we will continue to accept walk-ins, but will give priority to those who made appointments online. Thank you for your understanding as we work to provide you with a higher standard of service. I posted a message on my web site's message board, and I think that message merits repeating here: There is an important statement within the article, and some people have been having problems because they either never read the article, missed that statement, or were otherwise unaware of one very important rule. Here it is, quoted directly from the article: PLEASE pay attention to that paragraph. Today, at the beach, a friend told me that one of his own friends traveled to Laos. He did go to the immigration police office first, but was told by whoever dealt with him that obtaining a re-entry permit was not necessary when traveling to Laos. WRONG! When the gentleman re-entered Thailand he had no idea that his visa was no longer valid. When it came time to go to the immigration police office to report his address he was told he had seriously over-stayed his visa and not only has to leave the country to obtain another Type "O" visa to start the process all over again, but also has to pay a 10,000 baht (US $250) fine. The man said, essentially, "What are you talking about? Here's my one-year retirement visa right here!" That's when he was informed that the visa was now null and void because he left the country without first obtaining a re-entry permit. He was now in the country with only a 30-day visa and had vastly overstayed it. Does that sound unreasonable and incredible? Surely the immigration police would realize that the error came from their end and there was no intent to violate the law. After all, they knew their own officer was doling out erroneous information. Surely, once they understood what had happened, they would be reasonable and cooperative about it, have a good laugh, correct the situation, and everybody goes away happy, right? WRONG! Several other people were also at the immigration police office that day, and they were told the same thing. Apparently many people were given incorrect information by that one particular officer. They took up the problem with a higher official, but they made one of the worst mistakes a "farang" can make in Thailand. They were angry. They were raising holy hell in the immigration police office because they had all been told they have to leave the country and pay a substantial fine. Meanwhile they were victims of erroneous information that came from that office itself. They were told that the officer responsible for the error had been replaced. But, most likely because they were shouting and acting like children, the higher authorities refused to relent about the fine or the fact that they have to leave the country and start the process all over again. This particular gentleman now has to go to Penang, Malaysia. Between the fine and the expense of traveling to Penang to get another Type "O" visa, plus having to go through the whole process all over again, he'll be lucky if the whole thing doesn't end up costing him over US $1000 by the time he's done. If you hold the retirement visa and are going to leave Thailand, there are no exceptions. You must obtain the re-entry permit before leaving or the same thing will happen to you. If an Immigration Police officer tells you something, and you had been informed otherwise, then make sure to get confirmation, preferably in writing, from a higher authority in the immigration police office. This man wound up having to deal with this through no fault of his own. He relied on information given to him directly by an officer at the immigration police office. I have no idea whether the higher authority would have made an exception to the rules if these men had behaved cordially, but they didn't. Becoming angry and shouting is the best way I know to get no cooperation at all. They are probably lucky they didn't get arrested. The rules are clearly stated in the article. If anything needs any further clarification, please don't hesitate to contact me. If I don't know the answer, I'll get the answer. Obviously, even if a similar circumstance occurs, that doesn't cut any ice with the immigration police. They seem to be focused on only one thing: Were the rules violated? If the answer is 'yes,' then apparently the reason why doesn't make any difference. And if you are caught up in such a mess, there is really nothing you can do about it.

Now you know. Any chance of getting back to restaurants?

Even you and I can agree once in a while. Miracles do happen on occasion. I suppose if Jesus can appear on the inside lid of a jar of marmite, other miracles can also happen . . . Now, maybe we can get back to bickering about restaurants.

I am? In what way? If you are referring to the post I submitted about the beef, that was to settle the little dispute between you and Jomtien. However, if I am contradicting myself it's not the first time nor will it be the last. I'm slightly more of a complex person for everything to have to be be either black or white and never any shades of gray. Also, though it has nothing to do with this particular thread, every so often I do this really bizarre thing called changing my mind. For example, do you recall my objection to you referring to another board by replacing one of the words in its title with the word "fart"? I had a look at that particular board a few moments ago. Judging from some of the attack posts going on there, all about yours truly, if I was in favor of name calling I would reverse my objection. I still prefer not to use name calling (except, of course, when I am on that particular board and on the attack - another contradiction), but regarding my past objection to your opinion, I've changed my mind. Speaking of changing my mind, maybe that's a good idea. Some people out there have strong objections to the mind I'm currently using . . .

Wagyū (和牛?) refers to several breeds of cattle genetically predisposed to intense marbling and to producing a high percentage of oleaginous unsaturated fat. The meat from wagyū cattle is known worldwide for its marbling characteristics, increased eating quality through a naturally enhanced flavor, tenderness and juiciness, and thus a high market value. In several areas of Japan, beef is shipped with area names. Some examples are Kobe, Mishima, Ōmi beef and Sanda beef. Highly prized for their rich flavor, these cattle produce arguably the finest beef in the world. These different breeds produce beef that range from expensive (by any measure) to extremely expensive (about $500 USD per 150 grams of filet steak sold retail in Japan). Wagy? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Strange. I was foolish enough to think "What do you think? I'm very interested in your observations and opinions" might have given you a clue. "Nanny baby-kins should have told daddy-kins that he had to make potty-kins." - Fincham, 'Von Ryan's Express'

I can't refrain because I can't help but wonder if you have given a whole new meaning to "mind in the gutter . . ."

"Ach sooooooooo . . ." - Sefton, 'Stalag 17'

Yes, but you're not the only one posting on this thread.

It's very kind of you to tell us the absolutely obvious when the perfectly obvious would have done just as well. I love your assumption that the places some of us, probably meaning me, choose to eat is for survival, but not for enjoyment. Guess what . . . I only eat in restaurants I enjoy. Why do you post as if unless we eat in restaurants you happen to like, then we must not be enjoying our food? If that is truly what you think, then your thinking is a little strange, to say the least. Kobe beef? Where is your assumption coming from that you need to explain the merits of Kobe beef, just as if you know more about it than everyone else or that others haven't tried it? I've tried it too. I agree it's excellent, but unfortunately I don't have the equivalent of your great wealth that you consistently brag about to be able to have it very often. While I am sure most people reading your posts are greatly impressed with you, almost as much as you seem to be impressed with yourself, not everyone has the luxury of your enormous riches.

My question was whether you agree or disagree with the premise that the bars are going to have to come up with ways to compete with the personals sites such as Camfrog and Gay Romeo. As far as I can tell, everything is being discussed except my question.

Be careful, please. Personal attacks are not permitted on this board.