Gaybutton

Sorry you feel that way. Your post is still visible to Stef, Rainwalker, and GayThailand. If any of them agree that your post is not a personal attack, then any one of them is at full liberty to restore it without argument or resentment from me. I make no claims to be perfect in my judgments and being human I'm not going to get it right all the time, but I do see your post as a personal attack and I meant what I said . . . if a personal attack is posted, it's going bye-bye no matter who posts it. I doubt this will be much consolation, but I actually agree with what you said. It's the manner in which you said it that I considered to be a personal attack. Again, I have no problem at all if any of the moderators decide to restore your post if they disagree with my opinion of it.

Can you know who my sources are? No, you can't. "High powered inside informants"? I don't recall claiming that I have any such informants. However, since you have a highly developed spy network and are also on intimate terms with the Mayor of Pattaya, then I'm sure your information is accurate, as always. Since you are not here, then you can get one of them to go back to tell them it's not going to happen. I won't because I don't care whether they think it's going to happen or not. I hope it does happen, but that remains to be seen.

You saw that post before I did. I don't sit in front of my computer screen 24/7, so sometimes I don't catch these things before they've been online for a while. I agree that the post did seem much more like a personal attack than a discussion of the issue. Considering that I have already stated personal attacks are not going to be permitted, I have removed that post. Aunty . . . please feel free to re-post, if you wish, but you're going to have to leave the personal attacks out of it.

Further details now appear in the BANGKOK POST: _____ HUA HIN BAD RAILWAY COMMUNICATIONS Three Dead, 93 Hurt in Head-On Train Crash CHAIWAT SADYAEM Prachuap Khiri Khan _ Poor driver-to-driver communication led to two trains colliding head on, killing three people and injuring 93 others in Hua Hin district yesterday, police said. A north-bound Chumphon-Thon Buri train, with about 100 passengers, went through a red light and ran into the Bangkok-Yala sprinter, carrying more than 300 passengers, near Ban Nong Kae station. The Yala-bound train was waiting for the train from Lang Suan, in Chumphon, to pass so it could continue south. The crash happened at about 2.30am. Three railway employees on the sprinter _ driver Paijit Chuyada, crew member Wanida Popa and mechanic Teerapol Boonchai _ died at the scene of the accident, police said. Ninety-three passengers were admitted to hospitals in Hua Hin. Most were allowed to go home later yesterday, but nine were still receiving medical care last night. The State Railway of Thailand (SRT) launched an investigation into the crash. Initial inquiries indicated the Thon Buri-bound train ignored a red light, officials said. The driver of the Bangkok-Yala train reportedly tried in vain to contact the other train to inform the driver of his position and ask him to slow down and wait until his train moved to another track so they could pass. According to initial investigations, the north-bound train gave no response and ploughed head on into the sprinter. Deputy Interior Minister Banyat Chansena, who visited injured passengers in Hua Hin yesterday, said the SRT must find the cause of the accident to avoid a recurrence. An SRT spokesman said damage was estimated at 200 million baht. It will take at least two days to remove the damaged carriages from the area. The railway at Ban Nong Kae village was reopened to traffic later yesterday. Social Security Office secretary-general Surin Jirawisith said compensation would be paid to all injured passengers who are members of the fund. They would receive half their monthly salary while they were being treated and unable to work.

Well, for crying out loud, it never occurred to me that you were referring to an all Thai language web site in your original post about it. You suggested "dropping by" the TG message board, which I had never heard of, and nothing you wrote indicated that you were not referring to an English language board. If you had mentioned that it was an all Thai language message board, then I would not have asked for a link. I also have not asked for any full translations. What I am asking for is that you to post the gist of any messages you saw that provide any details or information you feel is something we ought to know that has not already been posted. If you have further information for us, I hope you'll post it since most of us do not have the capability to read it for ourselves.

First, I don't know for sure this is going to happen at all. As I said, this is only what I have heard. Since, assuming this is true, the idea was set into motion by business owners, then it stands to reason they are planning ways to do this so that customers will not feel uncomfortable. Before condemning the idea, I'd say that it makes the most sense to first wait until we know for sure whether it's true and second to wait to see what will be done and how it will be done. Many would agree that something ought to be done to clean things up and if that drives away customers who are also pedophiles, I'm all for it.

Well, llz, if you can read and understand Thai, that's wonderful. Probably one or two others who post here can do the same. Very few others can. I don't know why you are referring us to a thread that hardly anyone can read or understand. I fail to see how that's helpful. If there is anything on that thread that would be useful information, and if you can read and understand it, then it would be much more helpful if you simply tell us what we're missing instead of sending us to a thread that almost none here can possibly understand.

I'm not going to go off on this sort of tangent or get into an argument as to why I think the hits are legitimate. If you see him as a troll or a hit faker, then I suggest that you stop reading this thread. You're right . . . I'm a moderator here and I do not see him as a troll and I do not think he is jacking up the hit count. Unless I do and unless I see him intentionally violating posting guidelines, then the thread stays open for those who wish to read and/or participate on it. Now, and I mean it, this thread is a discussion of the Sansuk sauna. I am going to delete any further posts that accuse Kregger of being a troll, tell me to close the thread, or anything else that has nothing to do with Sansuk sauna or the debate about pricing policies. If you have a complaint about the thread or about Kregger, send me a PM.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. While Kregger does seem bent on continuing this issue, I don't see him as a troll. He has a position and he wishes to discuss it. Others wish to respond. A large number of people have obviously become interested in this particular debate. As long as discussions continue intelligently, I see no reason to cut it off in mid stream. It will eventually fizzle out on its own. In the meantime, those who have become bored with this thread are under no obligation to continue reading it. 2000 legitimate hits on this thread tells me that a large number of people are still interested in what is being said . . . on both sides.

The following appears in THE NATION: _____ MAJOR TRAIN ACCIDENT 3 Killed, Over 100 Injured in Train Crash Prachuap Khiri Khan - Two trains crashed at the Nong Kae station in Hua Hin district early Sunday, killing three people and injuring more than 100 other passengers. As of press time, eight victims including a seven-year-old girl and a monk remained hospitalised. Screams rang across the accident scene immediately after a Thon Buri-bound train crashed head-on to a Yala-bound train on a diversion track at 2.42 am. Five train compartments were derailed, as passengers woke up to the nightmare scene in the middle of the night. "I was sleeping when I heard an extremely loud bang. When I opened my eyes, things were scattered all around and people were screaming. I tried to look out of the train window but it's so dark outside," Anas Yodkham, a 59-year-old passenger, said. He later managed to get out of his compartment with minor injuries. "It's my luck that I have survived," Anas said, after seeing the battered compartments from outside. Paijit Chuyod, driver of the Yalabound train, was found dead inside his locomotive compartment. Train hostess Wanida Phokhan, an employee of JM Food Industry Co Ltd, died shortly after she was retrieved from the debris. Train technician Theerapon Boonchai was conscious throughout nearly four hours when rescue workers tried to help him out of the battered compartment. However, he too later succumbed to serious injuries. Paijit and Theerapon were employees of the State Railway of Thailand (SRT). Medical professionals and rescue workers from various units rushed to help the victims at the accident scene. Siva Saengmanee, the chairman of SRT board, said the accident caused between Bt150million and Bt200million in damage. According to him, primary investigation suggested that the Thon Buri-bound diesel railcar ran against the light and thus hit the Yala-bound train that was on the diversion route. A fact-finding committee was now established to carefully look into the case and determine the cause of the accident. By 7.10 am Sunday, SRT removed all debris from the affected railway and train services were now available as usual. Public Health Ministry's spokesman Dr Suphan Srithamma said the train crash injured more than 100 people but most of them received only minor injuries such as bruises. "The hospitalised victims are also out of danger now," he said. Prachuap Khiri Khan Governor Prasong Pitoonkijja said he never saw two trains colliding before. The Nation

Neither can I. Maybe my post wasn't clear. A "clean up" of Sunee Plaza has nothing to do with the restaurant/hotel. If it comes, it is because a number of businesses have jointly requested the authorities to do something about it and, again based only on what I've heard, the authorities have agreed and intend to post officers in the area to do it.

I wish it was, but that's not what happens when I click the link. The link is sending me to a registration and log-in page along with a display of a number of links to related web sites.

Gentlemen, let's keep the personal attacks out of this. Everyone has his own opinion and can express it, defend it, or attack the opinion itself, but if we're going to get into personal attacks, which is one of the things the new moderation policy is trying to prevent, then the result will be closure of the thread and moderated mode for those who persist in attacks. This thread has evolved into a debate over whether the pricing policy at Sansuk sauna is a racist policy or not. Please stick to the issue itself and end personal attacks here and now.

I would like to ask that you post a specific URL for that thread. I had a look at that board and nearly everything is written in Thai. Also, there seems to be several forums. Rather than us having to wade through all that to find the thread you are referring to, a specific link would be of great help

I think these people know what they're doing. First, the Clubber restaurant is just excellent and the prices are quite inexpensive. As people, including locals, discover the restaurant their business will probably be booming even in the lowest part of low season. The hotel, I think, is an excellent idea. Based on what I am hearing, they are spending a great deal of money to gut the entire building and put in quite a nice place to stay. There are moves afoot, from what I have been hearing lately, to clean up Sunee Plaza. It is my understanding that several legitimate business owners in Sunee Plaza have approached the authorities, and are getting cooperation, to take steps to keep boys under age 16 out of Sunee Plaza entirely. I questioned why under 16 instead of under 18. I was told that, legally, there is no basis to keep anyone who is 16 years old, or older, from entering Sunee Plaza during business hours. In any case, if the hotel or guesthouse or whatever it is, turns out to be as good as the restaurant, then it will be a wonderful place to stay, right in the heart of the Sunee Plaza action, and most likely at very reasonable prices. Especially if there really will be a serious move to clean up Sunee Plaza as much as possible, then I think both the restaurant and hotel are likely to be great successes and will also serve to bring a much better reputation to Sunee Plaza, and that will benefit all the businesses in that area.

You keep writing "race" instead of "nationality." I'm beginning to wonder who is the real racist when race has absolutely nothing to do with the pricing policy, but you keep insisting that it does. There are many Thai citizens, including Caucasians, who are not members of this so-called Thai race, but they are Thai citizens nevertheless. According to the pricing policy, they too will be admitted at the discounted rate. You can keep insisting that this is a racist policy from now until Kingdom Come, but the fact is that the policy is based on nationality and not on race. Anyone holding a Thai national ID card is entitled to the discount, rich or poor, Thai "race" or any other race. As an aside, I can't help but note that this thread has received as many hits in a few days as someone else who posts on the various Thai message boards claims he normally gets within a half hour, or so, of his postings.

I might drop by if I knew what the TG Messageboard was. What is the TG messageboard and what is the URL for it?

The thing is that in your view it's a racist policy. In the view of most other people it is not a racist policy. The current results of your own poll so far indicate that very few agree with your position. Although Punya is welcome to post here if he so desires, I see no reason why he should feel any need to justify his policies to anyone. Your insistence that his policy is a racist policy does not make it a fact. It is your opinion and your opinion differs with nearly everyone else's. He is a Thai, running a Thai business within Thailand and is not in violation of any Thai laws, Thai morality, or Thai policies. If it was me I wouldn't see a need to try to justify something that not only needs no justification, but is a one-man issue with which hardly anyone agrees. Your syllogism is that Thai business that provide discounts to Thai citizens, and no one else, is a racist business. Sansuk sauna provides discounts only to Thai citizens. Therefore Sansuk sauna is a racist business. That simply does not stand up. Also, it is obvious that even if he does post a response here, you'll very likely try to tear apart anything he says, no matter what it is, because you are so adamant about your own position.

Did I say two wrongs make a right? Did I say anything to indicate that the policy at that bar is right? I don't mind participating in your argument, but I see no reason for you to put words in my mouth or decide what I'm thinking.

Sheeeeesh! What do we need to do, take a Polaroid picture of a non-Thai under age 25 entering free? If it makes you feel any better, only a couple days ago the Thai boyfriend of a very well known "farang" here decided to try a fairly new go-go bar, just off of Sunee Plaza. He was denied entrance. Do you know why? Because he is Thai. He was told they want only "farang" customers.

It's valid if you agree with it. I do not. You wrote, "why not have the policy for all guys under 25 . . ." Once again, my response to that is we do not yet know whether Sansuk has that policy or not. So far, nobody who has actually inquired has responded, so where is this assumption coming from? Wouldn't it make more sense to argue the point once we know the actual policy? You are arguing to put in place a policy that may very well already exist. Incidentally, welcome to the board. I see you have just joined us.

I disagree with that statement. I don't think it's fair to assume anything when all you would need to do to find out is call them and ask.

I don't think the policy is racist at all. It's based on nationality, not race. As far as I know, if someone from any other Asian country goes to the sauna, they'll pay the same admission price as "farang." I see no significant difference between that and something done in Florida: During the summer months, when few people go to Florida for a holiday, Disney World offers excellent discounts for those who hold a Florida driver's license. To my mind, what Sansuk sauna is doing is much closer to that than to a racist policy. You wrote, "Younger non-Thais deserve to be treated exactly the same way as younger Thais." I don't know whether the younger non-Thais get in under the 25-or-under-free admission policy or not. Do you? Will complaining to TAT accomplish anything? I have no idea. I've never tried it. Well, apparently from among the five choices I listed above, you like number 2 the best. I have to admit I think that's a little strange since it has the least chance of accomplishing anything. Personally, I think you're wasting time and energy now. You've already stated your reasons why you think it's a racist policy. I don't see how finding new ways to phrase the same premise is going to enhance your case, but go right ahead and complain to your heart's content if that's what floats your boat.

The following appears in THE NATION: _____ DON MUANG AIRPORT THAI Going Back to the Ffuture National Carrier to Move All but Three of its Domestic Routes from Suvarnabhumi to Old Airport to Save on Operating Costs Thai Airways International is moving all of its domestic routes, except those involving Phuket, Chiang Mai and Khon Kaen, to Don Muang airport once the Cabinet approves its reopening. The move aims to save on operating costs, which are higher at the new Suvarnabhumi Airport. The flag carrier recently said the move to Suvarnabhumi had added Bt3.7 billion to its annual operating costs. THAI president Apinan Sumanaseni said yesterday that only flights on three routes would be operated at Suvarnabhumi as they carry a large number of foreign passengers who are taking connecting flights to overseas destinations. On Thursday, Airports of Thailand's (AOT) board approved in principle the reopening of the old airport following an outcry from low-cost airlines over the higher operating fees. Budget airlines have complained about the higher costs of using the new international airport, which took over domestic and international flights when it opened on September 28. Yesterday, AOT informed the Stock Exchange of Thailand that its board had approved reopening the capital's old airport for domestic flights, a move that would reduce operating costs for budget airlines. Deputy Transport Minister Sansern Wongcha-um said the reopening of Don Muang would relieve AOT from the future investment of Bt1.4 billion for the construction of a low-cost airline terminal. However, he is unsure whether the move will be permanent. The issue will be forwarded to the Cabinet for approval, possibly next week. "This should help AOT delay the new investment for four or five years," Sansern said yesterday, adding that the authorities are also addressing the reported cracks on Suvarnabhumi's taxi ways. AOT said in the statement that if the Cabinet approved the plan, airlines flying non-transit domestic routes would have the option of moving back to Don Muang. Low-cost carriers including Nok Air and One Two Go have shown interest in moving their operations to Don Muang airport. However, AirAsia wants to move both domestic and international routes back to the old airport. Apinan said few passengers would be troubled by THAI's intended move. The airline will provide a shuttle-bus service serving the two airports. He added that THAI would finalise a domestic flight timetable and a comparison of operating costs between the two airports within two weeks. "Operating costs at the former airport would be cheaper than Suvarnnabhumi Airport. Moreover, Don Muang will be less of a problem for matters such as landing fees, parking fees and ground services, as well as leading to shorter delays. Meanwhile, passengers will also save on travel time and transportation expenditure," said Apinan. The airline chief also said THAI was proceeding with a plan to set up a new airline, details of which are expected to be completed in six months. The new carrier will operate only domestic routes, using Don Muang airport. However, investment costs and a formal name have not yet been decided. "THAI will take a 100-per-cent share in the new airline," Apinan added. The carrier is will be a full-service airline positioned between low-cost operators and THAI. THAI will transfer aircraft and facilities to the new airline. Suchat Sritama The Nation __________ And this, from the BANGKOK POST: _____ IATA Blasts AoT Decision to Shift Flights Don Muang Looks Set to Make a Comeback BOONSONG KOSITCHOTETHANA & CHATRUDEE THEPARAT The International Air Transport Association (IATA) said yesterday that a decision by Airports of Thailand Plc (AoT) to shift some commercial flights back to Don Muang would dampen Bangkok's potential for becoming an aviation hub. Making flight connections between two airports would be a huge inconvenience for passengers, and might further damage the attractiveness of Thailand as a tourist destination, the world's largest airline trade group said. Responding to a query from the Bangkok Post, Albert Tjoeng, the IATA spokesman for Asia-Pacific, said: ''Imagine a passenger arriving in Suvarnabhumi and having to catch a connecting domestic flight or no-frills flight from Don Muang. How long will that connection take including baggage collection, travel from Suvarnabhumi to Don Muang and then check-in for the next flight? If an airport wants to be a hub, it is important to keep the connection time low.'' IATA has always supported the Thai governments' policy of having a single airport for Bangkok, largely because it would provide easy connections for passengers and facilitate airline operations. Mr Tjoeng said that if AoT insisted on going ahead with the reopening of Don Muang for commercial flights, then it had to ensure a level playing field for all airlines. While the landing and parking fees at both Suvarnabhumi and Don Muang airports are the same, the cost of renting space at Don Muang would be cheaper. Several Bangkok-based airline managers yesterday expressed support for AoT's decision to shift point-to-point domestic flights back to Don Muang in a move to relieve congestion at four-month-old Suvarnabhumi. They said it was the best immediate solution to unresolved problems, including insufficient toilet facilities, cracking taxiways and heavy traffic at the new airport, which is already nearing its designed annual capacity of 45 million passengers. This scenario could benefit passengers travelling domestic point-to-point routes, as well as the airlines, in that they would be processed through a more accessible, roomy and complete airport. Airline executives estimated that Suvarnabhumi could be relieved of as much as 30% of its traffic load by transferring selected flights to Don Muang. This would prolong the service lifespan of Bangkok's troubled new airport, particularly at a time when the government remains indecisive about the airport's expansion. Thai Airways International president Apinan Sumanaseni yesterday expressed support for AoT's decision. He said THAI was prepared to move point-to-point domestic flights to Don Muang while keeping those requiring connecting international flights, such as those from Chiang Mai, Phuket and Krabi, at Suvarnabhumi. THAI operates about 300 domestic flights a week. At least three airlines that offer domestic services including One-Two-Go, Nok Air and Thai AirAsia, have shown no objection to the move. IATA said there was urgent need to build a new mid-field terminal to create additional capacity for Suvarnabhumi. However, Apichart Sankary, president of the Association of Thai Travel Agents (ATTA), said using dual airports may not suit tour operators as they would need to provide facilities at both, entailing more cost and time. He said that AoT should be open about the problems at Suvarnabhumi airport in order to allow private sectors to prepare operations accordingly. He said if the government wanted to use two airports, the airport-link project should link to Don Muang as well. He said some big cities had two airports but they had efficient transport links. Maiyarat Pheerayakoses, managing director of Lee Ben Travel Service Co, said that if the government wanted to use Don Muang, a transport link between the two airports was vital because passengers would choose to fly to the airport destination with the most convenient facilities.

Ok, so the owner now knows about this thread. Good. When he reads it, he'll see the following statement from me, a moderator here: I don't give a damn about what motivates his pricing policy, whether it's racist or anything else. I don't see anything at all about what he's doing as racist and I wouldn't care if it is. The "what ifs" about blacks, Indians, Japanese, etc. are not a factor because there is no admission policy regarding any of that. I've been to Sansuk sauna and I will be there again, probably a great many times. Punya is doing absolutely nothing wrong and if anyone out there thinks he is, then there are five things you can do about it: 1. Take it up with Punya personally. 2. Continue griping about it and trying to prove your point on this message board. 3. State your case on the "Contact Us" section of the Sansuk web site. 4. Don't go to the sauna. 5. File a complaint with the TAT. If Kregger and others see it as racism, so be it. As far as I can tell, all Punya is trying to do is provide a means for people who otherwise could not afford it to be able to come to the sauna and still be able to regain his investment and make a profit, and racism most likely never entered his mind. I think this whole issue about the pricing policy at Sansuk as racism is just nonsense and is nothing more than a non-issue that few, if there is anyone else besides Kregger, even agrees with or cares about. Somehow I doubt that anyone is going to reconsider patronizing the Sansuk sauna because one person has decided that the admission policy is based on racism.