Gaybutton

Willy Clark (pounding on his TV): "Come on, you piece of crap, work already! Lousy Japs - they lost the war, so they send us their junk." - Walter Matthau (Willy Clark), 'The Sunshine Boys'

I was talking about scams in general and I thought I made it clear that the vast majority of scam victims are the Thais themselves. Firecat69 has been saying that most farang do not end up as scam victims. In fact, in post 22 in this topic I wrote, "I agree with firecat69. The Thais themselves are the scam victims far more often than farang. Then again, there are a far more Thais in Thailand than there are farang.." Where do you see a difference of opinion between firecat69 and me or anything that needs to be reconciled?

If you already said it earlier, I missed it. How do you know?

I don't understand the argument as to whether this phone purchase was a scam. What difference does it make whether it's called a scam or something else? The point, as I see it, is it happened, makes an interesting story, and is in keeping with the topic. Personally, I don't care whether it's labeled 'scam' or not. As far as I can tell from these posts, bucknaway intentionally bought a copy phone he knew to be counterfeit. The place he purchased it from switched it for a lesser quality phone. When anyone knowingly buys a counterfeit phone, he's also gambling on the length of time it will work, if it works at all. It might work a day or two, maybe a month or two. I have yet to see a counterfeit phone that worked longer than three or four months. If you buy a counterfeit and it doesn't work, then: "Of course, Dear. What did you expect?" - Gladys Cooper (Mrs. Higgins), 'My Fair Lady'

I'd like to be a fly on the wall if you're inspected and find yourself having to explain to a customs officer what you're doing trying to bring in a counterfeit telephone. Why do I think customs might have a little problem accepting that explanation? While I realize this video has nothing to do with scams in Thailand, since you brought up telephone scams, I just had to share my all time favorite - just for fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtKzp1qb6SE

It would be a little difficult for me to post about scams I'm not aware of . . . I can't answer your questions any better than you can, although I don't see the fast talking used car salesman as an example of a scam. If you're sold a car that wasn't theirs to sell in the first place, that would be a scam. If you want to see perfect examples of scams, all you need to do is watch "Judge Judy." I really don't want to get into the finer points of what does or does not constitute a scam. I see this topic as really meaning to be stories about incidents that unexpectedly removed cash from us rather than having to fit in with a precise definition of the word 'scam.' Many of us are going to disagree anyway about what is or is not a scam For example, at Christmas and New Year many Thailand hotels serve mandatory holiday buffet dinners that their guests will be charged for whether they want the dinner or not. Quite often the guest was never told in advance about the mandatory buffets. Even guests who become ill and can't even eat are going to be charged. Is that a scam? I can't say whether that fits the definition of a scam or not, but I'll bet some people reading this topic found out the hard way about those buffets. I'd like see those kinds of stories posted rather than worrying about whether they're actually within the definition of a scam. I agree with firecat69. The Thais themselves are the scam victims far more often than farang. Then again, there are a far more Thais in Thailand than there are farang.

Some people no longer take LOS to mean Land of Smiles. For many, now LOS means Land of Scams. There are so many scams in Thailand that it would take me at least a two or three days to post just the ones I'm aware of. One of my favorite scams is getting people to invest in a condo that has yet to be built. Then construction is never even started and the owner disappears with all the money.

You have your opinion and I have mine. You have your experience and I have mine. I'm glad the boards seem to have finally reached a point at which board members can discuss and even vehemently disagree with each other without insults, put-downs, and name calling. I hope those days are over.

Apparently our ideas about how to treat others with respect are quite different. You're focused on the idea of writing an offer on the back of a card. I see nothing disrespectful about that. Neither do any of the boys I've ever handed a card to.

Bring 'em. Bring 'em. The more the merrier. If it's really my lucky day, we'll empty out the entire male hotel staff . . .

Not me. And especially not me if he makes signals. Of course I'm not insensitive enough to do anything that would put his job in jeopardy. Some hotels couldn't care less while others would fire him immediately if he came to my room for any reason other than normal hotel business. In that circumstance if he really is interested I would arrange to meet him somewhere other than the hotel during his non-working hours and if things go any further than saying hello, if we go to another hotel, a short time room, his room, or anywhere other than the hotel where I'm staying, what's the problem?

So that's it. All this time, the night we had dinner together I thought it was your leg bumping into me . . .

Do you actually believe the Thai boys, whether they work in a hotel or not, would interpret it that way? I don't. I haven't used the "card trick" very often and I've never used it on a boy who didn't set off my "gaydar" and gave some sort of prior indication, verbal or non verbal, that he might be interested. I've never had even a hint of a negative reaction. Did you think I was suggesting to just walk up to a total stranger, someone you've never seen before and have never had contact with of any kind, and hand him a card? If that's what you were thinking, Wrong. I wouldn't do that either. Common sense does apply. But if I've at least had some sort of contact and got the impression there is a good chance he would be interested, but couldn't bring myself to talk to him, then I see nothing wrong at all with handing him the card - with or without the offer written on the back. The OP made it clear he can't work up the nerve to simply talk to the boy and see if it leads to anything. That's what I think he should do if he is really interested in the boy. I wouldn't do it in a way that could embarrass him in front of other people, but I see nothing wrong or sleazy about trying the "card trick" as an alternative. I also don't know where you get the idea that they stereotype us as creeps, sleazy, or any other negatives. I've neither seen nor experienced anything to back up that idea. Not ever. There might be a few who see us that way, but as far as I can tell, that would be very few.

Guilty

If they were selling their own brother, I might be interested - not in a sale, but perhaps a rental. Perhaps a 'try before you buy' offer is in there somewhere . . . Regarding being judged, as far as I'm concerned judge away. "GB, you are accused of being a sleaze - a dirty old man. How do you plead?" "Guilty."

I don't agree at all. We're talking about Thailand and Thai thinking. Also, if people were propositioning my relatives, so what? If there is a reason why that should bother me, I don't know what it is. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it and you can believe - if I'm in a hotel and see a staff member who interests me, the only thing I care about is what the Thai boy thinks. And it has been my experience that many of them are delighted. If in your eyes that makes me a sleaze, then I'm a sleaze - and I plan on continuing to be a sleaze. When you're in Thailand, what are you here to do? Why do I have a feeling visiting the various wats is not the main item on your priority list? As soon as I find myself interested in a set of rules as to where it is and is not acceptable to try to pick up a boy, you'll be the first one I'll ask.

If you're that sexy, to the point boys would put their jobs in jeopardy to proposition you, can I have your phone number?

Your only problem might be the hotel staff rules. Higher end hotels sometimes forbid hotel staff 'fraternizing' with guests, even during non-working hours. Even in that eventuality, if you do find a willing guy, no law says you have to meet in your hotel room. You could always arrange to meet somewhere else, away from the hotel, during his non working hours and go to another hotel, a short time room, or his own room. Sometimes, if you're lucky, the boy will make his availability obvious. These boys are probably paid around 10,000 to 12,000 baht per month. The opportunity to make some more can be quite attractive. I think it's best to talk face-to-face, but some people, especially newbies, are just too shy or feel too awkward to simply talk to the boy and tell him you would like to see him. If that's you, use your card. The last thing you need to worry about would be them asking what you mean. Believe me, they all know exactly what you mean. You could even write 1000 baht, or whatever price you have in mind, on the back of the card, perhaps with a smiley face too. I guarantee they'll understand what you mean. None of them will go to management or the police. Why should they? You haven't committed some sort of crime by asking for a date. Hotels always have their rules posted somewhere in the rooms. Unless one of the rules says, "You are not allowed to ask our hotel staff for a date", you haven't done anything wrong. I've never heard of any such problem. You're worrying about a problem that doesn't exist. I've handed my own card several times to hotel staff boys I like. When I do, I usually say something such as, "I like you. If you can have time for me later, I hope you will call." Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't, but none of them are likely to embarrass you in any way. Nothing like that has ever happened to me and I don't know anyone who has had that happen. The worst that can happen is you'll get a smile, but no call. I can honestly say I get the call more than half the times I've done that. If you find a hotel staff worker you like, you have absolutely nothing to lose by trying. Unless you have leprosy or something, chances are very good with at least one of them you will get precisely the response you're hoping for.

Don't we get to see any of those photos?

One thing the OP apparently hasn't grasped yet is the bar boys are likely to tell a potential customer whatever they think the customer wants to hear, even if it's something the customer wants him to do, but he has no intention of doing. He'll deal with it later somehow. Getting taken off is half the battle. Getting paid is the other half. The OP said he wants a top. He said he made sure the boys understood what he wanted. Assuming they really did understand, if it were me, after a few disappointments I would also make sure the boys understand what has happened so far and I'm not going to have any more of it. If you agree to to what I want, but then not do it, there will be no tip. If you're not going to do it, then don't go off with me - you won't get any money. If there is a better way to handle it, I don't know what it is. I think the OP will have better luck if he just forgets about taking boys off from the bars if this has been what keeps happening, and try the hookup sites, such as Planet Romeo, instead. Look at the guestbooks. Quite often there will be comments in the guestbooks that will tell you how good or bad the boy was.

Now I'm angry at myself for not thinking of one of my favorite quotes and including it in my post above. I call it the Richard Burk Philosophy since it was Richard who created the quote. Some of you may remember Richard from the days when he owned the Amor restaurant in Boyztown. When he first said it to me, I was new to Thailand. At the time I didn't understand why he would say that, but years later I for sure understand it now. I hope none of you will have to understand, the hard way, why many of us agree. I have a feeling some reading this topic have already found out the hard way, and some more than once. "If you want love in Thailand, rent it."

I've seen many farang who send monthly money to a boy. Occasionally it works out, but that's the exception. Most of the time it eventually ends in disaster. As some have already stated, no matter how much you give, it's never enough. Money issues are one of the most common causes for breakups. I've lost count of how many heartbroken farang I've seen over the years who ended up losing the boyfriend and ended up with a much lighter bank account. Since you asked for my opinion, my advice would be to keep away from any form of financial obligation, emphasis on obligation. I certainly would advise against sending money on a regular basis or making any promises about money. While I can certainly understand why people who come to Thailand and meet a boy they really like would want to help him, the best way is to give him a really good portion of money when you leave - without promising anything more. He'll be happy with that and you won't be placing yourself into a trap. It's much harder to stop sending money and maintain a relationship than it is not to start sending money in the first place. Your heart might be in the right place, but that same heart is also in the right place to end up broken.

I think I have enough experience that qualifies me to say you're asking questions impossible to answer. I don't know how anyone could possibly know how many or how much. Far too many variables. Also, I know a number of boys who never had anything to do with the bars, but receive monthly money from farang. That's not how they met. My Thai next door neighbor is in his forties, never worked in the bars, and has a wife and children. He also has a farang boyfriend who comes to Thailand once a year and stays for about six weeks. The farang financially supports him. My neighbor works menial jobs. His wife has a food stall. There's no way, even combined, they are earning enough to be able to afford a house, taking care of the kids, and driving both an expensive pickup truck and motorbike without the support of the farang. My neighbor told me about the farang's support, but he never volunteered how much. I've never asked and I don't intend to ask. Then there are the boys who have a farang who starts sending them money every month, but after some time the farang stops the support. Even when the farang continues sending money, it's not necessarily going to be the same amount every month. I don't know any boys who receive an allowance from a farang, but the amount is engraved in stone. I know one lady boy who had a farang sending him money to go to a university. The boy, instead, spent the money to get breast implants. He did that without first asking the farang's permission to spend the money other than the purpose for which it was intended and never set foot in the university. When the farang found out, he dropped the boy like a hot potato. The boy was heartbroken and couldn't understand why the farang cut him off. That boy now works as a dancer in a lady boy go go bar, hoping to find another farang to support him.

Again I agree with firecat69. What he is saying has been my observation too. It's a different story when a farang takes a boy off for several days and tips him decently, as a447a does. Other than that, I don't know of any boys who manage to earn 6000 baht in 1 week, let alone 52 weeks. Even back in the "Golden Years" the only way a bar boy was going to earn 6000 baht a week by working in the bars was if he was taken off for several days or was lucky enough to hook up with a very generous customer. It just doesn't happen. As far as I can tell it never happened. Maybe there were occasional exceptions, but I never met any boys or even heard about any boys who consistently made that much. I don't know any boys who ever made that much. I wish they could make that much. Again, if boys could realistically expect to earn around 6000 baht per week, the bars would be filled with boys and there would be a waiting list to be able to work in the bars. Meanwhile the reality is many bars are having problems getting enough boys to work there at all, and stay working rather than giving up and returning to the rice farm after awhile. As far as I can tell, the only people who ever got that much money from the bars were certain characters who were in a position to demand it in return for looking the other way.

I have no problem with that. It's one thing if it's the boy asking for a certain amount and it's less than I usually give. If that's what he asks for, that's what he'll get. It's the ones asking for overly large amounts that won't get it from me. When it's my own decision, I'll be giving him a lot more than 300 or 400 baht, even if I didn't like him, he didn't like me, or he was a dud. In cases like that, which thankfully so far has hardly ever happened to me, I'll give him my usual amount and just won't have him back again.