DivineMadman

It's Arena at it's old location. Now it's in the same building as it has been, but different floor. Entry layout is different now - the guys are quite a bitter closer to you as you make your selection.

Really? I've never met him but I have noticed his posts will very often - not always, but often - have a touch of humor, which I appreciate.

Siem Reap is definitely a place for "cultural" tourism, rather than other kinds (sex). But for that, I think it's great. You can spend many days exploring the temples and just crack the surface. Or going out to a village or the lake. If you're not into that sort of thing, then of course it's a very silly place to go to indeed - a decent place for a visa run, not much more. A good guide is probably essential if you want to get the most of the UNESCO site. I have never used him, and can't vouch for him, but I see there is a guide listed on the highly-regarded siamroads.com website.

A couple Siem Reap notes: I've stayed at the Le Meridien most recently - very nice and relaxing on the road out to Angkor. Short tuktuk ride into town or to main temples. Town center can be very noisy with revelers - so you might think twice before staying right in the middle of the action there. Everything is very close and lots of tuktuks. I don't recall much availability on the apps, but wasn't really looking last time I went. The typical recommended routine is visit temples in the morning - not as hot and the light is better for photos. Mid-day photos tend to get washed out. This is most important for the Bayon. (Obvs only relevant if you care about the sun/heat and photos.). [Daily routine - morning temples, mid-day rest/pool, afternoon museum, shops, urban exploration, massage, evening relax, night party in old town. repeat.]. Late afternoon some of the temples also start clearing out, or your driver can take you to some of the beautiful smaller temples that dot the landscape. There's a "pink" one I recall being very nice. The museum is interesting and not too big. There's a nice night market across the river from the old part of town for shopping. Standard rules apply for tuktuk drivers - they will offer to take you to shops they know, and from which they get a commission. I preferred the night market in town and this one actress the street. For some beautiful examples of local crafts - at a very high price - check out Artisans d'Angkor. Also across the river is http://hathakhmerspa.weebly.com/siem-reap.html. Been there a few times and generally pleased. You pick from a handful of guys sitting in a room behind a glass wall. Good service all around. And nice guys. They also have a branch in Phnom Penh. I was also disappointed by Linga Bar massage. Wasn't really thrilled with the bar either. I think when I was there there was some tension between manager (owner?) and staff. Not a good vibe. I am sure I was just there on a bad night. Agree the cabaret show is fun. For a nice place to hang out, have some drinks and some food, I liked Miss Wong. Squirreled away on a little alley, so maybe a little hard to find (?) - but google maps is accurate as I recall. Only real bad part of Siem Reap is the taxi ride from the airport to hotel - drivers usually go for the hard swell on being your driver for your visit. Of course there is enough to keep you occupied in Siem Reap for many days, but I really really enjoyed visiting Tonle Sap. I'll let others who have visited Phnom Penh more recently than I speak to that.

Arena purports to have a 15 minute rule, where you have to decide if the masseur isn't for you within the first 15 minutes. Frankly that seems a bit ridiculous to me and if they really want to stick with a rule like that, it seems like a bad way to do business. We all say that the massage shops have seen & heard it all before, so it should be possible for a shop to address the situation where a customer has a bad experience without resorting to threats. But of course in the absence of more details, hard really to say. The good news is that there are plenty of other shops to go to.

There is a Le Meridien right at Patpong Night Market and very very close to Soi Twilight. I used to stay there a lot. Very nice, friendly. I never had a problem with joiners.

I've stayed there it's very nice. Friendly staff.

I tried the new Banana Club a few times and became less a fan after each time. But that's just me. As I recall there were some handsome guys, all top only, my guess probably straight. Just FYI. I found the average types ok. Also mostly top only. For the twinks, there were a few gems (by which I mean maybe one) but most I found not all that attractive. Just "meh." I am not particularly a fan of the layout at Banana Club - communal changing room with locker and shower stalls, then walk to/from room in towell. Also there was a reported theft from the lockers in Banana Club, so you would need to keep your valuables with you, which gets to be a bit of a pain. Big fan of Prince. Arena is also very good++.

Ugh. Different question: Did you have romantic relationships (boyfriends) outside the business? Did they know you were an escort? Do you think it made the relationships easier/harder better/worse? Lessons you learned for having relationships? (Sorry if you've covered this before.)

Just some further thoughts on why we should not consider HIV "just" a chronic disease for the local guys: -- Although Thailand provides some HIV meds for "free," I believe you will find that it is tied to the hospital where the guy is officially resident, which may not be Bangkok, where he likely works. Because his family may not know what he does, and/or he may not want to explain HIV status for his visits home to hospital, he may be reluctant to get adequate medical care. -- At least as of last year, the meds were provided free only when white blood cell count was at or below a certain level, not viral load. So keep in mind that the guy may have a very high viral load but, in his mind, thinks he has been told he doesn't "need" medicine - and imagine if that influences his behavior. -- Remember that many of the guys are from countries other than Thailand - and by definition poorer countries - such as Laos, Cambodia, etc. All the same issues but probably less availability of health care services. All of which is just to say that we owe it to ourselves to practice safe sex and even if you're willing to take the risk for yourself, that is just flat out wrong and we owe it to the young guys who are our sexual partners always to practice safe sex and show them it is 100% ok to expect safe sex from customers.

If you have connected with someone on an app based solely on the pics and chat,turning him away just because he is more fem than you expected without paying seems harsh and inappropriate to me. This is assuming the pics are accurate. If that is the approach you plan on taking then you should confirm with the guy your expectation ahead of time. This is not hard. Ask or tell him you want manly (แมนๆ). It seems basic courtesy and that is what local guys specify they are looking for it when they post on an app. If after making your expectations clear he still is extremely fem, then I suppose it's up to you, but personally I would at least give him mocsy or taxi fare for his troubles. (Actually I would pay him. Or, more much more likely, I would have sex with him and then pay him.)

PrEP is available in Thailand. The Thai Red Cross has a good anonymous testing and counseling facility where all are welcome, right near Ratchadmari/Lumpini Park. http://en.trcarc.org/?page_id=632 I think 3 months is the period for re-testing. Yes it's most certainly theoretically possible. Something to keep in mind is that if the individuals do not live together full time -- for example, if the farang heads back to his home country alone for part(s) of the year -- it is perilous indeed to assume that the former MB (or for that matter the farang) will be abstinent. Even the best intentioned MB (now former MB) might get a call from mom at home needing money so he may find he feels he has to turn some tricks to earn some extra money. Or of course he may just go out get drunk and get laid. He won't mention this because of the fear losing his farang boyfriend. Or the farang might cheat. All suggest great caution.

This site is a valuable resource for certain things but for sexual health advice you should really focus on the actual medical/scientific sites. www.aids.gov is a helpful one.

First of all certainly disagree with this "us/them" notion of how people here explore or interact in their visits. I like to walk whenever I can - often to the consternation of my travel companions. I enjoy exploring off the beaten track whenever I can. I am in awe of Christianpfc's travels, but I have been on and off the beaten track in a number of countries in SE Asia myself, and other areas as well. I'm not a much of a shopper, but what little I do buy tends to be from markets (talad), unless I am buying a piece of American size XL clothing for myself, which can be hard to come by in SE Asia. I happily bargain at the markets because it gives me a chance to be a bit goofy and interact with the locals. Do I negotiate down to the lowest possible price? No. I had an ex boyfriend from Laos who could do that. But I bargain so we both save face and because I am not buying fancy electronics, overpaying by 40 baht is not a problem. Nor is it a scam. I hazard to guess, but I think more members of this board fall into this category of travel than you think. (With the exception of the need to XL clothing. I do not speculate about that.). Second and much more important is your statement "without asking for Thai help." ??? If you're not interacting with Thai's at that level, I think that's unfortunate, but asking for help => understanding what's going on => less likely to feel badly treated or dare we say it, scammed. (Outright theft, obviously, is just theft. Protect adequately or don't. But sometimes it's hard to completely prevent theft). When I am buying some unidentifiable bit of street food or small tchotchke, the only person who has more fun out of the experience than I is the seller, who always seems to enjoy -- as far as I can tell -- my typical state of helplessness and Thainglish/pantomime buying process. Gotta say never really heard of exploring a country without asking for help. If you're not taking advantage of the local help that is available, I think your missing out on a lot and I definitely don't see how that decision makes you more likely to be "scammed". [i'll confess sometimes I ask for help so the locals can explain something to me. It gives us a chance to interact.]. The high point of my visit last winter to Thailand was probably my visit to the Makkasan Fort community. I got lost, met some fun people, joined for 10 minutes a community organization meeting and bought for a ridiculous $20 a lovely birdcage of the sort that have been made there for centuries. And I asked for help and explanations all along the way.

Don't think I agree. Let's take the run-of-the-mill off'ing a guy from a bar (or an app). The MB provides an hour or a night of 'boyfriend experience" -- sexual services, an interlude or companionship, a feeling of being desired and/or desirable and perhaps some compliments, laughs, language lessons, etc.. The customer provides the personal decency expected from his side of the boyfriend experience and the negotiated payment. That's not a scam. That's the what' you're buying. If I go to Chatuchack (or Chinatown in New York) and buy a knock off Louis Vuitton Bag, I know it's not real. The seller knows it's not real. That's the deal. It's not a scam. Personally, in my own experience, MBs have not asked for extra money during or after a basic one-night-stand off. So if we take the basic case of someone on the board who offs guys from bars or the apps, I think it is not correct to say that everyone has been "scammed." If we are beyond the one-night-stand and into situations where there is more of a long-term "relationship" (loosely defined) with an MB, such as the fantasy of the long-term boyfriend or, perhaps more realistically, the foreigner who will regularly off a guy when in town or, as with many of us, just someone who has stayed in touch, then yes occasionally we all may well get requests for money. I have absolutely no doubt that there are some bad guys out there who ask for money to buy fancy clothes or yaba or whatever, but in my view they are very much the minority. I think the guys really may need the money to pay their rent or send home because there are mouths to feed at home and no one else earning money, etc. Is it a scam? I don't think it really is. Do 99% of the MB's do this or even have the opportunity to establish a long enough relationship with a customer to do this. No.

I certainly don't have any scam-like experiences with any of the guys I've met. I attribute the occasional "oh you have big dick" more likely to myopia than anything nefarious. I think once several years ago someone tried the "Wat Pho is closed, I can take you someplace else" thing on me. Easy to ignore. Of course there is the famous - infamous - Jet Ski scam. On Samui years ago there was I believe a bit of a similar scam going on with rented motor bikes, but it may have been stopped, I don't know. Best scam I've heard about recently was last year in Hanoi. Some shady hotels will adopt the same name as a more successful one (or close enough to be confusing) and send people to the airport to meet incoming flights with a sign saying, for example "Art Hotel" rather than "Art Boutique Hotel." Unsuspecting, probably tired, tourist will go with the wrong driver. Because my hotel took this scam so seriously they gave me a unique password that the driver meeting us at the airport had to have also. BTW - my general take on Vietnam was great and certainly this is not intended to suggest anyone needs to be extra-careful about anything in Vietnam.

Glad you had a good time. I believe that typically a 4 hand massage is usually a bit less than 2x a regular massage.

"where you can have drinks on a street in full view of everyone, handy for people watching, with the ability of “offing” boys for immediate company now, or more intimate company further into the night." I don't think the Jomtien host bars are a novelty and we don't need to go to Japan to find something similar. The description quoted above, seems like a description of Banana Bar, Hot Male (downstairs) and Scorpion Bar on Soi Twilight in BKK. (Although yes famously some of the nearly-jail-bait VN guys at Scorpion are notoriously not "off-able." I don't hang out at Scorpion Bar so this is just as reported on this board.) Only slightly further afield there are also host bars in Saphan Kwai. On another note, Quiche Cafe in Jomtien has very nice comfort food and nice staff too! Highly recommended for something a bit casual but nice.

I went to to Sun massage once and didn't particularly like it, so never felt the urge to go back. The facilities aren't terrible but aren't that nice. Showers in the hall, not in the "room" Mat on the floor in a cubicle sort of space with a curtain along the hallway. I prefer rooms with doors rather than curtains. The massage was a "there's no such thing as a truly bad massage" massage. OK but not great. The masseur was an incessant talker and was really putting on the hard sell to let him be my guide, go to Asiatique, etc. Didn't need him as a guide and I was fairly confident it would have ended up with me hosting him, his wife and daughter. So in the right mood with a different masseur I am sure it's fine. But for me there was nothing that made me want to go back for another look. I don't want to discourage anyone from going there, but couldn't recommend it, particularly given the other places available. Indra across the street: I haven't been to for a couple of years, so perhaps t's changed, but at least in the past it was [supposedly] a no hanky-pinky shop. You could not select the masseur; you had to take the next guy in rotation. The Thai massages were VERY good. Like many "legit" shops, sometimes, but always, the masseur would try to up-sell for some erotic endeavors, but no guarantee. Generally mats on the floor. Masseur fully clothed. Showers outside. I think just curtains for walls, but maybe some rooms. I can't really remember. I stopped going to Indra because, for legit Thai massage, the Prime is my go to spot. Yes occasionally a masseur there has offered a HJ and sometimes I have been weak and succumbed, but I like having a great Thai massage without any sexual pressure (as it were) and the Prime is my favorite. In the past several years it has gotten very very popular - I wonder if it is in some Chinese guidebooks? I have never been able to figure out when it's reservations only and when not, so reservations recommended, I suppose. But be prepared if you try to walk for a massage late afternoon after some touristing that they may tell you they have no availability (unless you had previously reserved).

spreadsheet link in this thread http://www.gaythailand.com/forums/topic/10406-bangkok-massage-shops/

Thanks. That's kind, unnecessary and much appreciated. I do hope to make it to Pattaya next time I'm in Thailand....

At Arena you will likely find several-to-many guys hanging outside the door. You'll get a warm greeting from them and they certainly hope that by giving you the attention, and holding the door for you, etc., you'll pick them. But don't feel any pressure on that front. When you walk in you'll sit down and usually the manager will show you the price list and then ask you to pick a guy. It's worth triple checking on the price list to make sure the tip is what you expect. I forget how it is at Arena, I think it may just be a flat 700. It's in smallish print on the bottom of the price list, as I recall. If all it says is 700 then that's what it is but personally I think there is a reasonable expectation that if you go for more than an hour massage, then the bare minimum tip should be increased (say to 1,000? for 1.5-2 hrs. Other than this little caveat there is no reason you have to give more than the minimum if all you got was the shower-massage-HJ. (But that the extra 100 baht or so can really be appreciated and if it's a truly expert HJ, it's well earned. If it's an "I'm going to get you off as soon as I can" HJ, then minimum is just right.) Pick your guy, confirm with the manager he does what you want and the length of the massage and your off. If you're just looking for basics then I think you select anyone from the lineup who suits your fancy. If you want to top (or flip), that narrows the scope of guys a bit and you might want to ask the manager ahead of time who will do that. Sometimes managers help. Prince often has a somewhat irritating habit of saying "You pick first, then I will tell you what he will or won't do." I assume this derives from a desire not be seen as playing favorites, but it is what it is. If you're going for more than a 1 hour massage, re-confirm with the masseur the length. Of course my answer to "should I give it a miss and just go to Tawan." is "hell, no!" They're completely different experiences and go to Arena late afternoon-early evening and then go to Tawan at night if you want.

My entirely subjective thoughts: Shop with the most guys: Prince, V Club 7 and Arena. After these three, the soi twilight shops would probably be next. [Regarding Prince: I have never seen or heard a Chinese or other woman running the shop, I do have some facility with Thai and I have never heard any inappropriate chatter about how much someone will tip and I have never had any of the guys so much as make a peep about my giving them anything more than the stated "minimum" tip. In fact I've found the guys at Prince as professional as anywhere. One credible thing that has been reported about Prince is that some of the masseurs don't want to cum with a customer so they can go back into the rotation and hope for another customer right away. The guys do like to go back into the lineup as soon as possible. Personally not a big deal for me.] Best rooms: Of the big three, definitely Prince. The regular rooms at Prince are not particularly large, but clean. Arena and V Club are a bit run down. Prince does have large VIP rooms, if that's your thing. For me the most substantial negative about the regular rooms at Prince is that the mat/bed is not particularly wide and is against one wall. Arena has massage tables. V Club has large beds/mats on the floor with plenty of room. (Honorable mention should go to King Spa, S 52 and Leo. All are in townhouses with spacious rooms that are well maintained, although one of the rooms at Leo only has the shower in the hall. Body Club has huge rooms, but I can't tell if they are decorated in industrial chic or shabby-chic.) Hottest Twinks: Very subjective here. The Soi Twilight shops would be the best for lineup selection. Banana Club has a decent number but I find the guys at Banana Club just not attractive. If you're willing to work from photos and go a bit further afield, consider King or Common BKK. Boy Club Spa in Ladphrao looks like it might specialize in twinks but I have never been. Hottest Muscle Guys: In the same way that twinks can for some mean waifs and others just trim 22 year olds with swimmer builds, I think muscle guys might mean Tawan types or guys who go to the gym to good effect with, for example, awesome pecs. I don't think any shop will reliably have a lot of body-builder competition guys, but the big three will all have guys who have some muscles on them and lift weights, and I think Prince and V Club try to get guys that are perceived of as "model good looks" to the mainstream. Best Massage: Of the big three, I think Prince and Arena are probably a tie -- so much depends on the particular masseur. But the massages are good. V Club is a fuck shop -- the massage is just to help you relax for the main tip-earning event. For me, Baan Taewa has the best massage (all guys Wat Pho trained), with Body Club running close behind and Leo also excellent. (It looks like the guys at Body Club have opened another shop called "Peak"). Urban Male I always forget - pretty good++ massage and the smallish lineup invariably includes some twinkler types, so I suppose it should be mentioned too.

I also recommend Prince. Good massage, very professional all around. V Club tends to dispense more quickly than other places with the massage part of the program and move directly to the extras, which maybe is good maybe is bad, depends on you - but of course there are exceptions to this observation. Prince and V Club 7 are both full service shops, so the minimum tip includes massage and whatever you want (within reason): just a hand job, blow job and/or penetrative sex, but you do have to confirm at the time of selection that the guy will do what you want. Some guys are top only. And then there is no pressure whatsoever to pay more than the minimum. At Arena, which has a lower minimum tip, more than a HJ has to be negotiated with the guy, which basically gets you up to comparable tip amounts as the others. If there's a particular guy that you want (based on the Line photos) then I suppose you should book ahead lest you be disappointed he's not there or available. It's easy to do so using Line. V Club sends out pictures of lots of guys "available" but not at the shop at any given time unless they are scheduled. The Prince, by the way, just sends out photos of a select group of guys. There are always more guys there to choose from. (I don't know the basis for how they select whose photo to post.) All three generally have a large selection of guys so something to think about may be showing up without a particular guy in mind so you make a more a spur of the moment selection based on intangibles like smiling, eye contact, etc. And of course, it's no surprise that the photos tend to be very flattering of the guy, so when you actually show up you might find the guy from the picture is not exactly what you thought. Personally I think the set up at V Club makes it hard to see who is there when you make your selection and at Arena you are very close to the guys, so you might find Prince -- where there is some distance and a glass wall -- perhaps a less pressured environment. (Hence the recommendation.) Up to you, but Jupiter seems like an odd choice for a gogo bar. Other bars have just as good looking guys and if you do off someone then a much better chance at success/satisfaction. Have you considered Dream Boys? (Never thought I would actually recommend Dream Boys!) If you just want companionship, then guys from other bars might be better as well. Not sure guys from Jupiter will go to DJ Station with you (for example), but you might find guys at other bars happy to do so as part of the "off." [There are no doubt gems at Jupiter, this is just trying to give broad brush advice.] Ultimately have fun.

As always a delightful much appreciated read, but if I may give a public service announcement: please do not flush condoms. Wrap them in a tissue or toilet paper and leave them in the trash. (They can block the plumbing and, perhaps more important, if there is a sewage dump (because of flooding, incompetence, etc.) will just de discharged into the river/ocean.)