DivineMadman

I am completely confused by this post. Previously DrimVoiz reported that he had been to Dream Boys (once) and based on his experience there, he declared repeatedly in numerous posts that Dream Boys was simply the best. And he had similarly raves about Tawan Bar. I believe Scooby even publicly warned him to stop creating the numerous new post threads with the unilateral shilling for Dream Boys/Tawan. This clearly is not a new visit to Dream Boys or something that just happened the other night. So is this just another of his puff posts for Dream Boys?? The purpose of the post just seems to put down the other, dare we say, "competitor", bars Seems like just another way to start another topic about Dream Boys. Is he being paid by the thread he creates??

I recall reading about the closure when it happened. I think the website is at best inconsistent. On the same page it lists the regular hours - open -- but there is a specific announcement about it being closed . I fear the specific announcement about closure is the more current information. For what it's worth - which may not be be much of anything - I'm not the only one who thinks it's closed. Timeout. TripAdvisor. If the intrepid Spoon will go and check it out and confirm one way or another that would of course be a great service to us all. But he and his pals should at least be advised that there's a real possibility about the closure on the website. Possibly a bit of sloppy website maintenance.

I think the throne hall might be closed for renovations. But as in so many things, I could be wrong.

Bangkok Post Article. No arrests.

Floating markets. I'm also not a huge fan, but everyone should go at least once, I suppose. Because I don't want to be responsible for making any specific recommendations on such an iffy outing, here's a link to the excellent Travelfish guide to nearby floating markets. The people behind Travelfish - to the extent I've had any exposure to them - do seem to be generally nice and very thoughtful people and they do try to avoid just the usual PR. For your planning purposes, the nearby floating markets just seem to be Saturdays and Sundays in the morning. Sanam Luang. Cremation grounds closed and being deconstructed and Sanam Luang restored. Grand Palace back to normal. Enjoy the crowds! I'm not sure there's a foolproof strategy to avoid the crowds. Some people recommend going at lunch time, because the numerous tour groups are all at lunch. That might be insanely hot the with sun directly overhead pictures tend to be washed out. Personally, I try to time it closer to the end of the day, with the hope most of the tour groups for that day will have finished their visit and I can get some afternoon light. Chatuchak. In addition to the Saturday/Sunday times, Chatuchak is open in the evening on Fridays. Another option. But that does deprive you of the weekend day market experience. Again everyone has his own strategy for dealing with Chatuchak. I usually go later in the day, so the sun starts to get blocked by the big hulking still-unfinished building behind the market, and then leisurely go from there to nearby JJ Green, which has different stuff and nice music, good food and a fun crowd. Increasingly there are shops with A/C in the belly of the beast that is Chatuchak, so I try to find these and cool off for a minute here or there. The usual advice, however, is get there early. If you want to go crazy there is a Chatuchak Guide app available. Night Markets. You've probably already been, but near as I can tell, everybody still loves the Ratchada Night Market (Rot Fai) behind the Esplinade Ratchadaphisek. (TCC MRT stop). It's a lot of fun, lot's of good food. There's even a gay bar. Unbearably loud. You might not mind the taxi ride out to the "real" Rot Fai Train Night Market at Srinakarin. It's certainly also fun. For "fashion" I gather the newish Neon Night Market is the place to go.

In the true spirit of a tantric massage, you are not supposed to climax. It's meant to be all about control (and surrender) and focus. Spa Bangkok offers a tantric massage package. This may be a massage they offer only to "members". Before that massage starts they make you read and sign a paper saying you acknowledge you won't orgasm and you will tell the masseur before you are about to. At Spa Bangkok, after the tantric massage is over you usually have a more normal massage, which I think you might reasonably expect to end happily for you , so I do recommend that you actually play along with the whole idea of the tantric massage, hold off climaxing, enjoy the experience and don't get handsy with the masseur (ahem, ggobkk). Dr. Bear has a lingam massage (or something like that), which you can select from their menu. The first time I had it there the masseur stayed true to the "tantric" practice of not taking me over the edge. That was ok, as that's what I was expecting. I went back again another time after a many months and had a different guy who thought the whole thing was just an edging exercise and towards the end he was frantically trying to get me to climax and I was doing all I could not to. But Dr. Bear is definitely an option for it in Bangkok. Part of the exercise of course is someone else - the masseur - mostly managing the whole thing. I've found it quite easy to talk some regular massage guys through the process as well.

I think the answer is no, but FYI first three or so minutes of this news report is about last night's raid on R3 Sauna. (Unfortunately all in Thai.) http://news.ch3thailand.com/rerun/5/125521

It's not misleading at all. The appropriate comparison is to what it would have been during the day last year. Attached is a photo from last year. The thread didn't suggest that Soi 4 was closed for business, and that's not what the Khaosod photo was trying to show.. The thread was about what happened last year and other years past -- which you can see in the attached photo -- not being permitted this year. Soi 4 used to be wall-to-wall water and the focus of the gay partying. The Khaosod photo simply shows the difference.

Soi 4 yesterday as captured in a photo in Khaosod. I'll confess I'm disappointed by the owners of the businesses that took the revelries away from the gay community.

If you state it axiomatically like that, the problem is that sometimes people think the "tip" to the masseur is inherently discretionary because somehow the very notion of tip includes that concept. That is simply not how the "minimum tip" economically operates at these shops. Clinging to simplistic "tip" notion can lead to confusion, which I think can then lead to disappointment/misunderstandings. The confusion is eliminated in these types of shop when people see that "minimum tip" is the minimum amount payable to the masseur and don't get hung up on the "tip" notion.

Unclear what the point here is, but in case it's subtle or unclear:-- At Arena, Prince, the Soi Twilight shops, VCK, Senso, Leo, Baantewa, Urban Male, My Hero, etc., etc., etc., etc., the cost of the massage has two components. One piece goes to the house, which may or may not be shared in part with the masseur. The other piece, as a general rule, goes to the masseur. (There are occasionally reports of some places where some goes back to the manager.) The portion that goes to the masseur is usually styled the "minimum tip." It may be called a "tip" but it is not discretionary. So the analogy isn't to the "tip" at a restaurant - it's to the full menu cost of the meal. Surprised that's such a subtle point. If that bothers you then don't go there. If you think that it is wrong that the 24 year old good looking man giving you a naked massage, happy ending or at the higher priced shops recreational sex gets a commitment up front from you that you will pay roughly 1,000 bath/hour, then by all means steer clear of those shops. I can understand some people may not like that because, well, what if the guy's hand job technique is bad? Why tip him? Or why tip the full amount if maybe I only liked it 80%? After all, anything I pay is still more than they make at 7-11, right? DON"T GO TO THESE SHOPS. They will survive without your business and there are plenty of other places for you to get a rollicking good time, and those other shops deserve business too. They may not have as many guys. The facilities may not be as nice, but that's a choice customers can make. For "full service" shops, roughly 1,000 baht per hour is standard in Bangkok for the masseur -- again for full service. That arrangement is what let's us have 30-40 very handsome men at a place like Prince or Arena. If that's too much for someone, again, again, again, don't waste your or anyone else's time. There are cheaper alternatives so go crazy.

This "asymmetry" talk just seems to be a bit of fuzzy logic in support of conclusion that's already been made. Which is fine - I have said before, if for whatever reason someone doesn't think a minimum tip arrangement is right for him, then don't go. But let's not try to exalt it into something more, as if "asymmetry" was somehow wrong or problematic per se -- or even accurate. And I certainly hope that it doesn't confuse people and steer them away from these shops, which certainly have a lot of fully satisfied happy customers every day -- they have the biggest selection of guys and are the easiest to go to and have a good time. At the particular shop we're talking about here - Arena - they have for eons been 100% clear in writing that the minimum tip includes massage, naked masseur, HJ and shower. (More than that has to be negotiated.) Thus, the customer does know what he's getting. Perhaps people may have different views, but I think that if you went to Arena and didn't get a hand job - a part of the stated minimum tip - I personally believe that the manager would be appalled and get you another guy or agree you wouldn't have to pay the full minimum tip. That particular scenario happened to me once at the old Banana Club, and those were the solutions offered to me. The actual quality of the massage may differ. So what you don't get to do is adjust your tip based on your subjective view of the quality of the massage after it's over. So what these shops offer is properly understood to be a sensuous massage of middling-to-good quality. Let's be clear, that's not "asymmetry." If you order a meal at a restaurant and you decide that the pad thai was, well, sub par, because you like it with more (or less) coriander, you don't get to decide to pay less. And you wouldn't stop going to restaurants because the whole business is based on this apparent asymmetry that you have to order your food and agree to pay ahead of time. At any of these shops there is a range in the quality of the massages. That's what you're buying. Unfortunately there's no real way around that. If the quality of the massage is paramount, then you have to go to some of the boutiques that distinguish themselves by the quality of the massage or just go to the always excellent but [mostly] legit Prime. There are a bunch of other minimum tip shops that have higher minimum tips, but this includes in that minimum tip full on oral and if you want penetrative sex (Usually when the minimum tip starts at 1,000/hour). You do have to specify exactly what you want ahead of time to be sure that the masseur does what you want. But the actual situations where the customer has been clear ahead of time and the masseur still doesn't perform are not that common. (Reports are much more common of guys being off'd from gogo bars and not being able to perform.) Personally, I don't like having to pause two-thirds of the way through a massage to have a negotiation about what the guy will do, so I prefer having it all agreed and priced ahead of time. I also think that Prince, Arena, etc. would not get the same quality guys if those guys had to worry about what customers pay.

I can't speak to the quality but Cutey and Beauty (Thaniya) does hair coloring, and I think their customer base has a lot of older farang. I don't go there myself, but it has its loyal fans. http://cuteyandbeauty.com

I have been told that Moonlight is owned by the same guy as Hotmale. According to ggobkk's recent report, the same guy also owns Screwboys. A successful and expanding group of bars. So I think without overly-taxing brain cells it should be possible to conclude that the bars and the particular guys working there are making an informed business decision. Of course this business decision is entirely selfish on their part. I, personally, find it hard to feel too sorry for myself or others who might be priced out by some of these decisions. Good for Moonlight and good for the guys! They're not operating a charity and they of course should charge as much as they can. There are plenty of lower cost alternatives out there. I believe that having a very high off fee is not all that uncommon for coyote dancers and guys in the show. Admittedly in this case it seems to be prohibitively high - but to repeat what should obvious, the bar and the guys covered by this high price are doing it because it makes financial sense for them. After all, the theoretical origin of the bar fine/off fee is that it the guys are supposed to be there putting on a show or providing a view and company to customers to entice the customers to buy drinks (the real profit driver of these places). There are a couple of massage places that let the guys set their minimum tip. Some guys start at 2,000. Not for me, thank you, but I don't let it get me upset that they set that price or that some customers out there think the particular guy is such a fantasy-fulfilling attractive packages of man meat that they pay that much. It does seem silly to me to avoid a place just because there are some guys there who are outside my budget. If it has a good show or a big display of eye candy, then it's worth the drink. At least that's my theory. If I am going out with sole intention of offing someone I suppose Moonlight wouldn't be on my list anyway, but to each his own. Unless there were a time machine and Tobey Maguire in his prime was available at the bar, I don't think I'ld be paying that sort of off fee, but, alas, he's not here so I don't really have to worry about it. There are other threads about the merits of this or that airline's business class cabin. If I'm back in coach I don't feel the bitterness towards the people who are in business class (or god forbid first class) that seems to pervade so many of the "that's too much" commenting about prices here. The price information is out there so customers can make their own decision about how to spend their own money.

I suppose we should all defer to DrimVoiz, who according to his posts went there once and has no connection to the bar, but at least in years past when Dreamboys was doing two full shows a night, Bangkok Boys was closed until the first Dreamboys show was over, then patrons would be escorted, drink in hand, down the back stairs where some guys would be on parade and coyotes dancing, while Dreamboys got a whole new audience in for its second show. Now even when Dreamboys is full they do not open Bangkok Boys every night. I believe it's only once or twice a week, but for high holidays like the upcoming Songkran maybe they will be reverting back to the old practice. But as I said, I must defer to DrimVoiz who knows more than the rest of us.

Spa Bangkok's website embraces a bit of cognitive dissonance with the statement "Spa Bangkok Treatments are exclusively for members but we do offer some treatments for visitor as well." I wouldn't let the membership stuff get in the way. They are very responsive on their Line account. Just ask them what the cost of a massage for a visitor might be and they will let you know and you can make up your mind on whether you want to go there. (I think the tantric massage is for "members only.") Spa Bangkok is not a brothel masquerading as a massage shop. The massages are very good. And it's not cheap.

You don't get to decide after the end of the massage that it wasn't good enough so you don't have to pay the minimum tip. If in the first 5-10 minutes you think it won't work out between you and the masseur, then at most if not all places you can say so and get another guy. But after a reasonable period of time - that's it. You bought it. The minimum tip is there to be a fair way to balance the interests of the customer and the masseur. There are an ocean of massage shops in Bangkok that do not have a stated minimum tip. If you think the shop having a minimum tip is a bad practice or unfair or you are worried about not getting your money's worth, then the elegantly simple solution is DO NOT GO to one of the shops that has a minimum tip. Easy peasy.

It's not a real gogo bar anymore. once a week (or maybe twice a week), they move the crop of guys available for offing down to Bangkok Boys after the main Dreamboys show. It's dark most of the week.

+1 What of the nice things about Arena is that it has always been 100% up front about the tips, so I really think the misunderstanding might be on muscfair's part.

Usually the "official" stop time is 8:00, but there are always light-hearted revelers (or, in my opinion, satan-worshiping a**holes, more often than not farang, who continue to splash people, and some even hang out at the end of the sois, so maybe shoot for after 9:00 and just be prepared. If there is no water on soi 4 for the whole day then that is a major change. In the past - during the day - it's pretty much been the gay center for songkran.

I thought that they move down to Boys Bangkok only once (or maybe twice??) a week (Friday and/or Saturday??). Not every night.

I had reason to learn a little bit about when the government supplied anti-viral meds for free a couple of years ago. They did so only when the T cell count got below a threshold level, so an individual could have a very high viral load and not get the antiviral meds. All of which is really just to say that the blanket statement about government giving the meds is a bit nuanced. Also, treatment needs to be at the hospital where the individual is registered as a resident. Many guys go to work in Bangkok but don't do all the paperwork necessary to qualify.

"VCK Cool Space" is the rebranded name of the former V Club 7. It's on Soi Ari 4, about a 5-10 minute walk from the Ari BTS station. It's connected to Chakran Sauna. (Chakran has a reputation for being not particularly welcoming of farang. I can't confirm that, but beware. However, I certainly felt welcomed at the massage shop.) They are active on Line. website I am 100% sure VCK has it's fans. It just happens I'm not one of them. I used to live in the neighborhood and really tried to make a go if it. I keep trying, but it's just not for me. The good news is that they've spent a bit of time and money renovating the sauna and the lounge area. Now you enter in the front through the same entry as the sauna, and you will get ushered into the lounge/bar area. The back of the room is a tiered area where the guys are there for your selection. On a weeknight at about 6:00 there were 10-12 guys. All about mid-20s to early 30s. Not a twink in sight. Some shirtless, some not. I had previously booked a guy on Line. The booking was handled efficiently if ultimately unproductively because the guy I booked didn't go in to work that day. An hour or so ahead of time I was informed of that and picked a different guy, no less attractive. Now for the bad news - the room/house charge for a basic room is comparable to other high-end shops, but the minimum tip is substantially higher. ABOUT 30% HIGHER. Tip for a 90 minute massage at Prince is 1,500. At VCK it's 2,000. (Basic room is 950. At Prince it would be 1,100 for a slightly larger room.) I think the minimum tip for 1 hour at Prince is 1,200 and at VCK it's 1,500 - so 25% more at VCK (!!!). When I made the 90 minute selection I looked the manager in the eye and asked him if he was sure the guy I had picked could really do a 90 minute massage, and he said yes. Aaaaaaaaaargh. Getting to the actual massage room is a hike with lots of stairs. Because the whole thing is jumbled up with the sauna, it's a bit of maze to get to the room. The rooms are perfectly functional with a pad on a slightly elevated "bed" that completely fills it's little nook. There's a mirror on the wall and a nice shower. Shower alone before and after. Long long wait after getting showered for the guy to get back to the room to start the massage. Naked throughout. The massage was pretty much the definition of mediocre. Wasn't horrible. Was not good. Very soft. A bit of contortion stretching which is ok but just wasn't done really right. I think this is the sort of massage you get from guys who learn by watching a couple of youtube vids and maybe, just maybe, get a lesson or two. Halfway through the guy took another bathroom break (that's an observation, not a complaint).. Then flip over, a little bit of leg work and an ok happy ending. Showered alone after. The guy was very cute. Naked throughout. Nice personality. Didn't use too much oil. All good. The bad is the massage was barely mediocre and I was out on the street in 65 minutes. After showering, long wait for him to start, then showering and dressing and getting out, that left about 45 minutes max for the massage. And this is very much consistent with the other times I've been there. (Yes of course I could get out my watch and tell him no another 30 minutes, but he had exhausted his repertoire of limited massage skills and, frankly, why hang out when you know he thinks he's done.) If the shop charged less than the others, I probably wouldn't mind. But if you are going to charge a premium price, then you have to offer better services. It has to be a good massage, or -- as far as I am concerned -- a mediocre but enthusiastic massage for the full time. I don't expect these guys to be great. But you can't be mediocre and short-change. Here the charge was 30% more than Prince, but I've never felt so quite short-changed at Prince. Because I had specifically mentioned the 90 minutes to the manager, and got his assurances, I sent the manager a Line message pointing out how short the massage was. He couldn't be bothered to answer. A simple answer like "Ooops, we'll make sure you get the full 90 minutes next time" is all he needed to do. But no. (This also makes me wonder if my original so-called booking (no show) was just a fake. But that's just speculation.) So the manager's good at booking but not really at follow up. And had he followed up with me, I probably wouldn't written this review, or would have given it a different spin. Or, all he had to do when asked is say that the guy is better for just a 60 minute massage, and I would have done that and been happy as a clam. A more pleasant example to the contrary: The other day I was over at Sanctuary Spa and was making my selection and we had narrowed it down a bit and I mentioned to the manager that I really wanted to be sure the guy could give a good 90 minute massage. He thoughtfully changed his recommendation and the guy turned out to be great. He knew that some of his guys might not have the skills for 90 minutes, and because he's a pro and wants his customers happy, he actually took it into account. Every time I go back to this place I have the same negative experience there. Now that they have raised their prices to be so much more expensive than any of the other shops - and still providing crappy mediocre service - I just give up on the place. Skip it.

i agree. on a separate note, i think whatever facebook uses for translate has been hacked, because I frequently get downright bizarre translations entirely unrelated to the Thai text, such as "I don't know what to do" or "I'm very tired." Perhaps it's just a sign that the translator-AI has become sentient.