DivineMadman

Most of the guys I know send money home. It really doesn't require much of a mental effort to think about circumstances the guys come from. Young guys from Cambodia are the children (or in some cases grandchildren) of Khmer Rouge survivors. Imagine the circumstances in Cambodia when they were born 22-25 years ago and that their families live in even now. I know many are sending money home to build the first livable homes for their family and are sending their younger brothers and sisters to school. If you take some time out from the pleasure domes and get to know some of the Myanmar guys, you will find out much the same. Many guys are from villages where even now there is no electricity. Spend some time talking and you might find out that waiter serving you spent his time as a stateless Akha family, quite literally foraging for food in the forest. The same is all true Laos guys and the Vietnamese guys. I (and others here) know a Laos guy who came from a family with no land, so he actually bought a home for his family. A lot of Laos guys will remember when their villages first got electricity. I think all of us who the spend the time really hanging out with these guys, in non-sexual situations even (gasp!), respect them and their commitment to family. The idea that they're going to say "no, I'm not going to send my mom 2,000 baht this month because I'm going to invest in a mutual fund" is just nonsense. Setting aside money as savings is a luxury these guys and their families just don't have. Definitely they're young guys. They want nice shiny phones and some nice freshly-torn jeans. And there are some guys (a few) who even have motorbikes, etc. I certainly don't begrudge them that. I have a lot of sympathy for what they put up with, so let them have their joys. People who spend -- objectively speaking -- a lot of money to fly around the world to come to Thailand or Cambodia or wherever to PAY to have sex with young guys who otherwise wouldn't want to have sex with them really cannot claim some sort fiscal prudence superiority. Not everyone has extra cash to be generous with their money. But there's no excuse not to have generosity of spirit.

It appears the Immigration Police have raided Prince again. This time looks a bit more serious and some guys were handed over to the police for drug use. https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1132758-attractive-men-in-underpants-arrested-right-under-the-noses-of-immigration-police/

DIscussed recently here - which includes a correct link to the longer thread. The link in the unfortunately-named "timeless" forum is busted. If you're the right kind of person to do it, then it can be a truly great experience that is loads of fun and you get to really know your guy. I recommend it, for the right person. Of course, be advised not all guys want to do it, and those that do might expect a premium over L/T rate, so I can't really say whether a particular guy you might like from Jupiter will even want to join you or anyone else on a trip.

I get daily updates from them on Line, so still in business.

I haven't had those problems (yet)

LOLs. I realize you previously mentioned that you didn't want to take the time to read through other threads, but if you had you would have noticed that often threads do go a-wandering. There is another forum where "keep-to-the-topic" is enforced. In this Forum it's more common to let things go with the flow.

Actually I think you'll find that people using "queer" have always known the negative history, so it's used as a way owning/taking power over the phrase. So those people using it have been saying "I know you [public] might think it's an insult, but I don't and not only do I take away your power to insult me, I am appropriating the word with pride."

I think cis means you identify as your anatomical birth gender. So it’s not anout orientation. but truth is i find it hard to keep up with all this.

I find the whole chai-tae/real man thing horrible for just that reason. They need some good old queer activism to attack language issues like that. But then again, why is "straight" the opposite of gay? And what about all those Grindr profiles using "straight-acting" one way or another - what's that really saying? (- or "no-fems") Seems the same common negative slant to all us people who like man-sex. I think people are happily using the global word "gay.". So now they just need a different word for the heteros.

On the apps you will see the word "bi" (ไบ), and variations like manly bi (ไบแมนๆ) etc. So it's pretty simple word in both languages.

There's a story about a hippie tourist who heard that in Thailand you are supposed to negotiate prices for everything (a la Chatuchak) so he tried to do that at 7-11.

I don't think they do. The few (couple) of times that I have ended up with a Muslim guy was from Dreamboys, but hardly a statistically valid sample. I haven't come across this. There are several massage shops that send out Thai language Line blasts or updates and they use "gay" with the same sense as we do. For example, VCK - will say who is "" เกย์" ("gay") and who is "ชายแท้" ("chaai-táe"="real man"=straight). They will also say if someone is top only, does it all, or does absolutely everything. And these gay guys are not ladyboys or feminine. There are other shops that will identify guys as G or M for "gay" or "man=straight" , so you will see GT or GT&B or MT or the rare elusive (but prized) MT&B. Crowns Club is another that identifies guys as "" เกย์" ("gay") or "ชายแท้" ("real man"). And the list goes on and on. Also, in my experience just in conversations with local guys there is no direct link between "gay" and ladyboy. We freely use "gay" in the "gay Thailand" sense. To confirm my understanding, over breakfast I asked a young lad from Laos if "gay" would really make people think katoey, and he thought not, but, again, not a statistically valid sample. (Over breakfast = another of those uninvited L/Ts. ) It is true that most of the gay gogo bars have a drag element in the show. But you find that in gay bars in NYC and Atlanta and elsewhere. Go figure. At bars, I always ask guys if they are "gay" ("เกย์"), and at massage shops if I'm selecting from a lineup or photos I always first just tell the manager it has to someone "gay." Again, no hint of ladyboy. Way back I used to say I didn't want straight/top only - because that's all I cared about - but this way of asking-by-exclusion doesn't work as well as just saying gay. Actually I say I want someone "gay does everything" ("เกย์งานครบ ได้หมด"). Can't go wrong with that.

That's really my point. I don't think 1,500 is the norm in BKK for S/T. I think it's better to expect 2,000 S/T. (Apps you can find guys for less.) I don't know as much about L/T because my problem is getting the guys to leave, so I never actually ask for L/T.

Bar “off fee” at Banana is 300. Wasn’t there just a post that Lucky Boys S/T is strictly-enforced 2,000? I’m surprised it’s less at Moonlight. Personally, I think S/T is more like 2,000 and L/T 2,500-3,000. Apps can be anywhere from 1000-2000. In BKK.

Sorry. CU = Chulalongkorn University = BKK

Not sure this event was getting press - or at least press on the English language sites - so in the VERY unlikely event that anyone might find it interesting I thought I would pass on that there will be some Chinese Opera performances 6:00 pm Saturday 2 November at CU Centenary Park. I can't speak to Chinese Opera, but Centenary Park is a delight. Well worth a visit. (And well worth learning about some of the engineering and flood management design that went into it. It's really quite impressive.) And it's free.

thanks. useful info. a couple of thoughts. 1. The comparison site finder.com says it's "independent" but then acknowledges that it's paid by advertisers and on referrals, and then if you go to XE.com from Finder, there's a screen that says you are going to XE the "partner." And there do seem to be prominent XE.com ads on the Finder.com website. Also, there's an "article" on the Finder.com site that basically says XE is just better than Transferwise, which is a tad bit suspicious to me. https://www.finder.com/xe-vs-transferwise Maybe it's true, but I wonder if there might be a deliberate bias in the Finder.com site. Just a thought. 2. When I compared the overall fee that Finder.com was saying Transferwise would impose it was higher (by roughly a paltry $6.00.) than the overall fees that Transferwise itself was actually quoting me at that time. And the comparison site didn't use the then-current Transferwise exchange rate - they used a slightly worse exchange rate than Transferwise was offering. So it's not like it's a real-time accurate comparison site. hmmmm Transferwise Finder 3. The folks at Transferwise have an article out XE (so there!) and they don't come down and say one is better than the other, but they point out that XE uses the SWIFT network and banks along that chain of transfers can all take a bite out, so the amount you are quoted to receive by XE is not guaranteed to be the amount you actually will receive. XE tells you there may be charges along the way and that's not their problem. https://transferwise.com/gb/blog/xe-money-transfer [It's funny because I find the Transferwise "article" more trustworthy because doesn't quite come down so hard on the competition. It will be interesting to see if there are any of those little charges on your transfer. I certainly hope there aren't any. (You do read about people transferring from the U.S. to a Thai bank and if it goes through an intermediary bank that intermediary bank(s) may all impose a fee.). Bangkok Bank imposes a fee of .25% on incoming transfers, but it maxes out 500baht so not a huge deal, but those sorts of things are hidden costs, or potential hidden costs, that Transferwise doesn't have. So I think comparison shopping is definitely the way to go, but I guess I am a little dubious Finder.com so I would still go the actual transfer co to make sure I am getting an actual quote for comparison purposes and, personally, I would ding XE (or other SWIFT co's) for saying "there still might be other charges."

I think many/most of the regulars on this board know 2-3, actually often more, guys from Ha Tinh. (At least those who have kept an open mind about VN guys.) Indeed, there is rumored to be a statue to Paulsf there. That may help explain why nerves are raw. Still, what you or I or any of us write reflects choices and thoughts. Personally, in my opinion, choosing "IIlegals" as the headline word to describe the victims is fairly open to criticism. "Undocumenteds" is the neutral term. Applying the label "illegals" is a choice, and a negative one at that. Maybe you didn't know that. Maybe you didn't care. I don't know. But why any of that is at the forefront is beyond me. These were people. Dreamers and strivers. By the same token, choosing to say that the guys here "sell their bodies" is about as demeaning a way to describe them as you can find. And I think that's the criticism. Obviously they're prostitutes (sex workers). The point is, particularly in the context of a tragedy -- but really always -- dignity and respect are called for. That's not "hand-wringing about prostitution." If anything, it's the opposite. It's getting the idea out there that they're young men and sex workers they're and owed all the same respect as any man or woman, and the words we use to describe them should convey that. So when you have a choice to describe them or what they do, pick the one that shows respect. One of the downsides of putting anything out there in writing is that it can be picked apart. Maybe it's an opportunity to learn something. Or not. Also, it's good that this tragedy helped your, and with luck other's, understanding of the economic pressures these guys are under. I and others are always are urging people to go with the guys to their home villages, spend time really getting to know them, then you can learn this sort of stuff without such a tragedy.

great report. Tx. Hope to see you next time in BKK and look forward to reading future reports.

Just to be clear, this is only for the tantric massage. Consistent with my experience as well. I don't 100% remember if tantric is at the expense of the other bits (plus I suppose you can always tell them that you want the max time for the tantric). When I've done it I've had the full package of scrub + tantric +aroma. I think -but am not sure - the tantric is a bit shorter than 50 minutes in that situation. After the last time I decided not to do all three just because it seemed like too much time to be flat out on a table. For residents or regular visitors the membership brings the cost at Spa Bangkok to just "high". You get a bunch of "free" (included) massages with the membership and after that the prices are lower. My indulgence there is a scrub + aroma (actually with my preferred guy it's a blended thai and aroma massage), for 1, 350 member price plus tip and clocks in at around 2 hours. So roughly the same as Healthland but obviously more expensive than the usual storefront shops. I think it is correct that only a few of the guys are trained to do the tantric, but it's more than one. I have been offered the choice. When I've booked a tantric + massage etc. they have suggested two masseurs to break it up. In my experience they will send a picture or two to help you narrow it down or confirm that their recommendation is acceptable to you. No surprise, the photos are a bit idealized. If you go to the shop to book in advance I think they will let you go through photos on a tablet.

Here's hoping you do! Great report. Tx

As a general rule, masseurs remain fully-clothed. Occasionally might a shirt get taken off? Sure, but don't go there counting on it, so you won't be disappointed. Occasionally might more come off? I'm not saying. It's definitely not a fuck shop (unlike Prince, VCK, Arena, etc.). Can you get grabby with the masseur? I think a little is going to be fine, but you can take your clue from the masseur's reaction. They do a lot of in-house training and I am pretty sure all the masseurs are gov't licensed. It's a serious massage place, but it is men-for-men, and men being men together you should expect to end happy. But if you want to get naked with your masseur and roll around, it's just not the place.

+1

There's a whole exhaustive /-ing thread on how to navigate trips and/or the "boyfriend experience." https://www.gayguides.com/forums/topic/11328-travelling-with-gogo-boy. [Note - the link to this discussion in the so-called "timeless" section is not correct.] Personally, I have great luck traveling and spending time with my guy-of-the-moment. I encourage people to try it if they think they might enjoy it. It may not be for everyone - and not everyone is right for it - but it can be a wonderful experience. I was probably lucky my first few times and now I might even have learned a bit more and it all works for me and, so far, for my companions. I think that real-time communication is the first most important, second most important and third most important thing to making it work. Also - and I'll confess this was a bit of a revelation to me - communication problems are not 50-50 (duh). Each of us is 100% responsible for communication if it's about something that we care about. If you see something you don't like, say something. Be clear, be double clear, confirm the mutual understanding. And raise issues quickly. Don't let things fester (a particular sin of mine). Your guy will 99.9% of the time adapt if you're being fair. I think that some (or many) working guys do indeed think that one part of the "boyfriend experience" absolutely is shopping. It is very common and happens every day (at least here in Bangkok). And it happened in the OP's situation. I don't like shopping for myself, much less someone else but following my own "communication-communication-communication" rule I let any guy with me know I don't do shopping. Any of these up-close-and-personal experiences in close quarters over anything longer than a short time are bound to be a bit bumpy, because flawed human beings with all their expectations, issues and anxieties, etc. are involved. And there may be things going in a guy's life that might make him shy, distracted, upset about something that may, or may not, have anything to do with you. Or maybe that gentle tease actually got taken the wrong way. We don't know. There's actual science (!) out there that says that we human beings are terrible at our judgments about other people's motives. Almost comically, we assign bad motives to people (other than those in our "in" group). So now I try to avoid that sort of thinking, or at least be aware of the pitfalls - "he must have done this because..." and just stick to the facts and try be more about understanding and less about vilifying, particularly when I'm dealing with someone who is a less than half my age. But if it's not working out, best to pull the plug. OP handled it well. Looking forward to the next installment.

Some of the models by their own choice do not go with customers for "offs." (Admittedly, I haven't checked that this week, but that certainly has been the case in the past.) The models set their own tips, and what they will or will not do. If the argument is that somehow someone wouldn't want to be a higher-paid model because of the higher off fee or higher tip scares away customers, he could easily fix that problem by charging a lower tip. But in any event, I think the models who want to go with customers pretty much know what they are doing and price themselves at the luxury price point. So personally I doubt that anyone is offered a position as model and turns it down to be a regular lineup guy.