vinapu

Exactly, new Arena is just one floor above old one. They were putting finishing touches on new lobby and in some massage rooms when I was there at beginning of Jun so I wouldn't be surprised if move is completed already

Yes, read what we have to say but check for yourself. One can find gem everywhere.

I'm not as cruel as you think. Remember whole idea of 5 day Bangkok vacation was his, down to sleeping of floor when I will have boys with me. I just rubber stamped what he wanted throwing in separate room and 2 nights together promise. We talked everything over including timing of payments / I wanted to pay as day goes, he wanted all money on last morning claiming that this is best way for him to save it - I liked idea /

For the show I suggest Dreamboys. no fuck show last week there nor at XSize but by time you will be there all should return to the norm. Colmx is on something - line of boys at Dreamboys, and I was there in first week of Jun was not that impressive but in reality all you need is just one boy you like. As for Scorpion beauties, I need better glasses perhaps. For sleaze in the bar Golden Cock and Nature Boy are your primary destination, I'd say Tawan even better but those are not your types at all. Bottom line - judging in your posts in the past you will have fun wherever you go

Day 7 Time to say good bye to Pattaya, breakfast again at Ambiance, boy went to his room to collect his things, I went to mine to pack and we agreed on meeting at bus station at 10.00. Since agreement was that I’m free to entertain other boys at will and my man offered to sleep on the floor in such a case I decided to be humanitarian. Natra Silom where I was returning to did not have any free rooms but fast search on Agoda resulted in getting single room for 22.50 $ in Sunflower Place around the corner from Nantra , in the same soi Super A is located, literally 2 minutes walk between two hotels. I booked it for 4 nights at cost 90$ this way securing place for boy in case his warming bed services will be substituted. Quite heavy traffic on way to BKK, bus left at 11 and it took us 4 hrs to get to Nantra, Bangkok part being easy thanks to BTS. After we settled at Nantra , went to Sunflower to claim room for boy . surprisingly spacey for single and of good standard. This hotel is to be considered in the future despite scary sign on the door that guests are not allowed. Quick lunch in Foodland Patpong, my favorite dining place in BKK which shows you how much attention I pay to food and return to hotel because I was expecting to meet Xiluzer who occasionally writes in this forum and whom I met in Dec. We happened to be in BKK again in the same time and for two days in the same hotel. He is only member of this forum I met personally so far who shares my taste in men so we always have a fun visiting places and trading opinions about what we see on the stage. Few minutes later welcome hugs and I decided to join him and his friends he came to BKK with in their planned escapade to Hero. My boy was not happy I’m leaving him in the room but was not interested in going with us and I was forced to remind him that idea of coming with me to Bangkok was his and his was promise to let me to chase boys as much as I want. Hour or two later our team 6 guys strong went to soi 11, hearts pumping as always in anticipation of unknown known. Arrival of such strong contingent caused understandable excitement behind the glass with boys smiling , posing and trying to bring attention to themselves. It was about 6 p.m and a Saturday but place was not as busy as one would expect. As usual I got my pick pretty fast and it happened to be the same boy I had last Dec, Nut, tattooed and muscular with good manners and even better massage technique. So I left rest of gang still pounding choices and off I went upstairs for an hour of mutilation. On way back walking down soi 11 we had fun comparing our choices and as expected by Hero we all were happy with whom we landed. Boys went their way and I was rushing to Nantra to console my consolator. He was happy so jealousy was short living it seems. I suggested dinner at Maxis and he agreed , on our way there we stepped by Screwboys because I wanted to check if One, star of my Dec trip returned and my man wanted to see who was my then boyfriend. Unfortunately for me and to visible relief on my companion I was told he went home for a while and they don’t expect him anytime soon. Namu from Bangkok massage recognized me instantly and told me I have very handsome boyfriend and I promised him to visit him for massage in near future. No need to say what I had for dinner and after that I announced I want to see show at Tawan and my boy who would fit in there well expressed interest in going with me there. On arrival we noticed Xiluzer and his gang inside. During show I took an interest in # 51 whom I saw with farang in Dec and did not have a chance to talk to then so now invited him for drink and after exchanging few kisses and touches here and there we negotiated long time tonight leaving my companion to sleep alone /and skip corresponding tip / Resigned to his fate he went to his room few minutes later, being go-go boy himself obviously not that interested in the show, I was rather surprised he even wanted to see it in the first place. At end of show my off went to dress and then bucket of cold water was thrown on me, when waiter collected money for drinks and off fee my off appeared excusing that he can’t go with me because he needs to go with another customer. Pissed I was big time but resigned to my fate I was not even upset with boy since I had no idea if this was his choice or he was told by management to go with that other guy who obviously was well known in the bar being wai’d by everybody as he moved around. So Tawan pissed me off, fortunately Xiluzer and gang still were there so I had arm to cry to while watching my unoffed off happily drinking with that other guy. When we were leaving I slipped 100 in underwear of # 14, probably smallest of all Tawan boys but muscular enough for me to pay attention . I liked his hairstyle too / spiky one / and we will hear from him soon. Probably you guessed already that there was somebody very happy that night. Yes , on my way home detoured to Sunflower Place to wake up my boy and grab him with me. Judging by the strength of mutual embrace tonight it can be safely assumed that both of us thought that having boyfriend, no matter how artificial, is good idea. And so day 7 was gone

Thanks for the tip for full day tour, will consider next time as half day is not enough even for greenery hater like me. No I did not go to elephant and folk shows ,I'm not big fan of those. I'm glad helmet situation cleared, no I did not go with him nor he suggested I will too, I'm glad I did not , all those consideration you described would drive me insane. When shopping I'm fast decision maker, the same goes in massage places and bars.

few pictures from NongNooch Tropical Gradens

Day 6 Started with me acting ATM big time dispensing baht like no tomorrow, tip for him for night company , 1000 baht for helmets – discussed a bit earlier in the thread and 2000 for off fee for 5 days. I was actually expecting 2500 since off fee at BBB is 500 unless one buys drink , then is reduced to 400 but boy told me 2000 so I gave him that to pay bar. Possibly he pocketed money working it somehow with bar but not my business and it worked for me . We had breakfast at Ambiance across the soi for a change, then boy left and I was waiting for van to show up and take me to NongNooch tropical gardens. I’m not big fan of nature and greenery but was enticed by Christian comments somewhere about them being world class attraction so decided to give it a try and right away I need to say that I agree with that assessment. Gardens are covering quite a big are , can be explored on foot on ground or from above using elevated walkways all over the place, there’s also kind of open sided tramway driving around with stops in few places / 100 baht / and ultimate – tour can be made using royal transport i.e on top of elephant / 400 baht /. I thought 700 baht cost for half day trip is kind of expensive but in fact it’s very good value – admission cost is 500 so 200 for round trip transport from and to hotel it fair as long as I’m concerned since gardens are quite a distance from the city. Even with all that greenery there’s not much shade so it’s better to take morning trip instead of afternoon ones also offered. Lots of food and drink available and one can easily spend whole day there. Took my photo with tiger on the short chain / 100 baht / , took elephant ride as well as tramway tour where I was big attraction since all other passengers were locals and whenever I heard “farang” I knew it’s about me. Always kind walker I also explored elevated walkways and must say after 4 hours I was happy I took that trip. Around 2 p.m. I was dropped in front of ABomb and few minutes later my boy appeared with two helmets, crappy for 200 for me and classy one for 800 for him, he expects it to last at least 4 years by his words so chances are I may come and check. No idea what helmets costs and to what degree he milked me but I assume it’s not that much, at home probably just strap would cost me 1000 baht so no complains. Sanctuary of Truth is not that far and I liked it , beautiful carvings in equally impressive setting on the edge of the sea. Admission again quite steep at 500 , grounds are quite extensive including restaurant where we had a lunch , boy had some seafood and me , you guessed rightly , chicken with cashew nuts. I told boy I will pick him up from the bar after show, he went to his room and I had some rest after such a busy touristy day and early in the evening I walked over to Sunee Plaza with only one bar in mind – Good Boys I missed in Dec, one I was advised had different type of boys that rest of Sunee and I may like them. Stories proven true, several boys on duty, no twink in sight. Drink 150 followed with invitation to sit behind partition where shortly after I was joined by member of staff who offered to present his jewels and cum for me for consideration of 300 baht. I even volunteered a drink and having fun in the bar invited two others, one by one, for the same treatment . All three boys by their own admission are 100 % straight and into girls but obviously into drink and 300 baht as well. Certainly something different than in other bars and while I prefer this type of entertainment in my room , not open space, I had a fun. There was another patron entertained the same way and he looked like local , certainly spoke Thai as was conversing with his boy during whole process. Back in Boyztown for already established routine, beer and adoration at Oscars, BBB boys singing and flag waving then cross to BBB, my boy was not there so I sit with another one for fun and was rewarded with feel of his quite impressive endowment he was proud to present claiming he is not shy at all. Busy surveying what was on offer I did not even notice my boy arrived and was quietly observing the scene from behind instead of joining us. We watched show together, after that some repeated fooling with the same boy, tipped one of boys on stage I like but under eye of my boy I needed to behave so we went back to Café Royale for world peace discussion 4th night in row finishing day 6 of my trip.

I actually feel sorry for him since he is well built a with handsome face but such deformed most important part now I recall passing by on few occasions thanks to your photo

I thought it may be kind of money extracting scam but at least as you will learn soon , helmet were bought and used by us / possibly returned later on but I was mentally prepared for those tricks so took it lightly. I offered 1000, boy wanted 2000 so we settled on 1500/day. I consider this generous on my side , comments welcomed. Night activities excluded, so when he was with me I paid him separately, when he was alone earned nothing but I guaranteed him 2 nights out of 5 and he spent a lot of efforts to convince me to hire him for 3 nights. It worked out in his favour as you will learn soon. He is Lao, but his parents are living somewhere in Issan . I need to say here I have good luck with Lao boys and not as good with Cambodian ones, not sure it's pattern or coincidence. My best boy in Dec was Lao as well

Of course if was XBoys, not XSize / which is in BKK, not PTY/, my apologies but I was typing report past midnight so excuse me. I think writing as I'm still there makes for better reading. I remember plenty, hey whisky or even better , gin , helps as long as is taken straight, I don't use any diluters or mixers as they are called. On serious side at least twice daily I was updating my notes in form of draft e-mail to myself , you are right that after return all seems like a blur. Fact that I change hotels often actually helps to localize goings in the past and to place them in proper day as well. Yes I like Magnolia and even like long stroll to or /and from there, I'm big on walking and it takes me 20-25 minutes from BT to get there. Massages are great and so is decor but as for boys I have mixed emotions, so will continue to patronize them in future , God willing, most likely with expectation of great massage and not much more. Not that they are not willing for extras, opposite, too willing and too fast to get to 2nd stage for my taste, I walk fast but lay slow so to speak. For me PTY is Boyztown, I can envision me camping there for a week crossing street only for Boat Bakery and internet cafe on South Pattaya Road. Did not venture to Dongtan at all this trip but went to Sunee, watch this space for more. It were at least dozen if not more boys at Kawaii / biguyby correct me if I'm wrong / , with exception of smiles none for me which means many readers here would be happy there, twinky cherubs are not my territory, their older brothers are.

I agree with you and it's why I said it must be great degree of emotional involvement

DAY 5 breakfast at Boat Bakery again including revelation to my man that I'm taking him to BKK for 5 days as he asked. We had quite business like discussion about particulars to avoid future problems and it was good idea. We agreed on daily rate and that nights will be paid separately,I guaranteed him 2 nights with me , he agreed that I can do whatever I want and he will stay away from room if I decide to bring another boy. It was clear that there's no love , just business and we both seem to like an idea. He started mentally to count money and asked me to pay him at the end so he can save it. I liked this way of thinking, I was equally happy seeing perspective to have somebody close to my dream boy for my company for a few days but, ever curious even more excited just to learn how it will work since this was my new approach to Thai vacations- BFE / boyfriend experience/. For tomorrow I asked him to go with me to NongNooch tropical gardens but he was not keen , at the same time accepting idea of driving me tomorrow afternoon to Sanctuary of Truth. One can say quite successful business breakfast we had that morning. He went to his room to get some sleep, certainly he did not have much of that in my room and I went to do my rounds , first step to travel office nearby to book tropical garden tour for tomorrow morning at cost of 700 which I thought steep but I'm on vacations after all. Very hot day so I found it necessary to cool down by taking massage with one of Copa hunky masseurs then some errands and early afternoon hop onto songtaew and another massage at Magnolia. I like the place and every visit go once, This time it was Lee, on the website he looks quite hunky but in fact is quite diminutive but still muscled and quite hairy for Asian. Good massage but upon learning that I'm for massage only decided that 1 hr instead of ordered 1.5 is enough, oh well, his loss not mine , 500 baht on tip saved . Early evening cooled quite a bit so I decided to walk back to Cafe Royale cooling myself with ice creams from every 7\11 on the way. In the evening as before I parked myself at Oscars waiting not only for BBB boys to sing but also for biguyby, our contributor who agreed to do bar tour with me tonight. Very pleasant conversation than we decided to see show at XBoys and visit Kawaii bar as well. At Kawaii we were only customers although shortly after 2 or 3 more patrons showed. Boys there are not my type at all, twinks , some with quite angelic faces but none even remotely close to 25 y.o so only I could do it was to smile at them and on departure slip 100 baht to one of pretty face's underwear. Quite a few clients at XSize for a show and show itself very brazen , BKK style. One of big cock show participants had his deformed by silicone to a degree that for a moment I wished I was straight. Fuck show participants cruised for a tips among us voyeurs, all in all I quite liked a show and time spent there although music was way too loud disabling all conversation. Before midnight we parted out ways , biguyby went for his massage and I went to BBB to pick up my man. Of course in view of our trip to Sanctuary of Truth tomorrow need for helmets surfaced and I was asked for 1000 baht to buy two , for boy and me. Vinapu , you happy ATM I thought before falling in my BF muscular arms for another night ending day 5 this time.

at least we managed to have some discussion about ethics of spying and BFE, I did not notice any flames but z909 is right aboyut trolling , no harm done in this case IMNSHO

I think age gap and cultural differences can be worked out but for BFE to succeed it must be great degree of emotional involvement for both sides not just lust and desire for steady income stream. Otherwise both sides will start being bored pretty fast. Tried this on my last trip and liked it but I did not get carried over and we parted our ways both happy I guess, I was for sure.

I maintain pretty good budgetary discipline throughout the year thus acquiring good habits and funds letting me to bit a bit prolific on my trips to Thailand and elsewhere. I LOS spent a lot of money on boys , massages and bars but shop very little, I like travelling light and after so many trips I don't need any souvenirs from LOS, beklieve me or not but only tangible assets I brought home from last trip was bar of aromatic soap from Silom market and aftershave cream I always buy at the airport for 420 and small bottle of whisky also bought at the airport. last 42 baht from my pocket I gave to cleaning lady in the boarding area. Lesson I learned from my trips is that too much of fiscal discipline may take a bit of joy from vacation so if I have urge to spent I do if I have cash in my pocket. Never carry plastic with me on streets to avoid flash trip to ATM, this is my reason I like using cash. Where is that KISS place you mention Abang? name sounds familiar but mentally can't localize. You guessed rightly , always I treat my bed warmers with breakfast unless they opt out by leaving early.

day 4 since I was alone had a good uninterrupted sleep til 9.30, rarity for me, I don't sleep much and even less on vacations. Breakfast at Boat bakery, noticed good exchange rate at 33.72 and took advantage by changing wad of USD to even bigger wad of THB. Pleasant weather almost December like today, good for strolling so wandered quite a bit, spent hour or so at Tukcom and couldn't resist detour to Royal House massage beside, usual 1.5 hr massage by quite hunky and well endowed guy. Then Sunee Plaza stroll, still deserted early afternoon but at least localized Good Boys , bar I missed in Dec and recommended by some as only one in Sunee with bigger and more manly boys than usual that plaza's fare. early in the evening decided to take another massage, this time at Scandic, picked up older looking guy named Jom and it was very good move. Very energetic massage using not only his forearms and elbows but also his butt -first time I had this treatment and liked it. well deserved 1500 tip even if there were no hanky-panky just massage by naked guy. In the evening I parked myself at Oscar's to watch BBB boys singing at 9 p.m. at the same time subjecting myself to repeated adoration by their waiter mentioned before. He already spied me going with my boy from BBB last night and noticed he doesn't have a chance because I like big boys and he is small framed. Later on I learned things are getting even more serious because he lied to him that I offed him short time during day and paid him 2000. Unwillingly I became object of love intrigue but decided just to shrug it off, at my age it's quite nice to be object of such an adoration I guess. Went to BBB to pick up my boy again but he did not arrive yet so had one of their boys sitting with me for a while, not an unpleasant way of spending time. After the show I took my man home , tonight for long time. He already secured that I will take him for all 3 nights I'm in PTY and it looks that we are both winners. He secured income stream and I access to his adorable biceps and 6 pack not to mention kind of fun. He returned to an idea of going with me to BKK for a few days repeating that I can have other boys because he is interested in seeing Silom and other BKK charms and can sleep on the floor when his place beside me will be occupied by successful rival. Yesterday I thought this idea stupid but tonight decided to give boyfriend experience a try to see what happens. Kept him guessing for now, asked if he wants to go with me to Nom Nooch tropical gardens tomorrow but he was not interested in, offering to take me by his motorbike to Sanctuary of Truth, fine. Great time together tonight, no wonder I start loosing my sense by agreeing to this ' boyfriend ' experiment. and day 4 was over

this is exactly what I feel about advantage of using cash, also when travel very very rarely I use credit card other than occasional cash advance if need arises. If I go to the bar with 1000 baht there's guarantee I will not spend more even if hot under the collar.

day 3 I decided to take Victory Monument van to PTY as last time I was on my way in few minutes. Unfortunately not this time. Even if they depart every 15 minutes after 1 hour of waiting I realized that it will be another hour before my number will come up so tossed ticket, hopped on BTS to Ekkamai and took van from there, 130 baht and was on my way in 10 minutes. Ekkamai van terminates at Bus Station, 80 baht motorsai and I was in La Cafe Royale, standard room at 900 +7.5% tax . this was my 3 rd sty in this hotel and don't see any need to look for anything else. Right in the middle of Boyztown and still fairly quiet. First thing I noticed when going around was exchange rate slightly better than in BKK (33.72). Went to soi 1 to see if Beer is still working in Narcissus massage, he was on vacations home so I took another boy for 1.5 hr of hot and steamy massage. After that dinner at Casa Fellini, very pleasant Italian restaurant in soi 2 I dined with firecat at in Dec last year. In the evening I parked myself at Serene bar waiting for BoyzBoyzBoyz boys to come up at 9 and start their singing and clapping but for some reason it did not happen that night. I noticed that waiter from Oscar beside shows interest in me and my mustache but unfortunately he is not my type being small framed skinny man at 25 y.o . But tipped him 100 baht for his trouble and crossed soi to see the show at BoyzBoyzBoyz but mainly to reunite with boy I offed twice in Dec and survived to surprise of firecat who suspected he may be ax murderer judging by his rough face. I noticed him entering bar just before 9 but somehow did not see him inside and even mamasan couldn't find him but before I started developing depression boy, whole in smiles marched toward me. Did not waste much time to ask him to join me tonight but he was available only till 1 as was planning to go to BKK for visa extension using night bus. To compensate he asked me how many nights I will be in Pattaya and offered he will accompany me long time for remaining three which I gladly accepted his muscular body being reason for that mono diet. After show we went to hotel which did not escape attention of Oscar's waiter mentioned above. Nice reunion in the room. Upon learning I will be spending another week in BKK he suggested he will go with me there offering to sleep on the floor if I decide to bring another boy I may fancy. I can't say I was very receptive to an idea since I never tried so called boyfriend experience, he was not pressing issue either. When his time came up I decided to have a stroll to internet cafe and he was so concerned that I will not off another boy that night he walked me over. I'm not sure he went home right away or hid himself somewhere to see if I go whoring. Anyways happy I found him again I decided to sleep alone as requested and on steps of my hotel I was greeted by Oscar's waiter who just finished his shift and wanted to thank me foe a tip. Probably wanted more but as I said, not my type at all so warm hug on the steps and we parted our ways and so day 3 was over

I don't know about other people but I'm exchanging cash because it works cheaper for me. Every cash withdrawal is 180 baht charged by Thai bank and 5$ charged by my bank home., that 11$ total. For security I have daily limit set at 500$ so most I can take is 15000 baht at once. And no, rates are not better when using ATM in my case but it may be different depending on country and / or bank. Of course at end of every trip I bust budget and last few day live of cash withdrawals but then I don't care about rates that much for obvious reason

Yes, safe worked in both rooms at Nantra / you will learn shortly that I returned after few days to a bigger room /, rooms were clean, hot water flowing, I don't know about wi-fi but must be working as they distribute password on reception and don't racall anything bad about the beds. Scarping express trains was smart decision as few people were using them at 3 times cost to save 15 minutes at most ion comparizon to City Link. Express train was running to BTS connection at Phaya Thai though

I don't know about lizard but I was scarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrred ! / you are right of course about spelling /

day 2 when boy left I realized I did not come to Thailand to waste time on napping so went to Foodland Patpong for an early breakfast / 62 baht 5.30 -9, 79 baht after 9 /. Nantra Silom offers free breakfast but is very basic / toast, jam and butter, 2 kinds of cereal, some fruit, tea or coffee / so had additional coffee when returned to the hotel after taking customary stroll through deserted Patpong and soi Twilight. I like morning wander through those places , so different from night's hustle and bustle. Checked exchange rates in vicinity of Silom and as usual best are at place near Om Yim, jewelry store in soi Thaniya and Natty Gems just beside soi Twilight, 33.52 was the best I saw that morning. A bit later returned to soi Twilight to take a haircut and was charged 300 for a pleasure , location , location , location I guess. I know I can have it for 1/3 of price and even know where but being fresh from home where my local barber charges me eqivalent of 550 baht I considered having it for half price anyways. On another chair was sitting Bon, boy from Prince who previously work for Adonis and whom I offed back in Nov 2014 for longest off I ever had. Despite it he did not recognized me thinking I'm his old English teacher, oh well, it seems not all boys have such good memory as legend has it. After early lunch I went to Arena. They are in process of moving and likely by now it completed. When I was there reception was still in old place but massage rooms upstairs were gutted already and open door and back windows served as A/C. Almost all my boys I had massages with before were there and greeted me to a warm embraces. My favorite Dit was there as well and he escorted me to a new Arena upstairs where lobby area is still being worked on but massage rooms are ready, brand new with exception of tatty towels but I liked what I saw, lots of room shave windows. Before we went to massage he showed me around and I wish them well as I always had a good service and a good time with their boys and usually visit the place as a first and still remember when old Arena was brand new back in 2001 I guess. Distributed few 100 baht notes among boys who weren't chosen this time and went to Nantra to have a bit of rest as jet lag caught with me. Funny thing about jet lag and I mentioned it already is that I noticed with age I take easier those long flights but it takes me more effort to fight jet lag. And it showed in the afternoon when I went to Senso for another massage. Lots of new boys, only 2 familiar faces , no M nor Chai in sight but Tik was smiling at me so I chosen him, tall muscular boy and at one point of massage I just dozed off for a while , what a waste of resources but we had still our fun. Rooms at Senso are of high standard with big mirror on the wall so while massaged you can actually watch the boy's body. Sure it comes with price - 1.5 hr massage 1300 and minimum tip 1500 for that length but was happy with Senso as always. It looked that when I was inside we had quite a rain but it stopped already so i had grand tour of Silom again and with pumping heart went to Screwboys hoping One, boy I offed 6 times and had a great time in December will be still there but unfortunately mamasan who recognized me right away told me that 'your boy One went home'. Unpleasant surprise but this is a life so after drink and watching a show I decided to substitute One with quite muscular participant and off we went, first to have a supper and then to a room to discuss world politics or so. Unfortunately it did not last till morning as around 4 boy expressed desire to go home because of day time job or whatever excuse he had and since he accepted 500 baht reduction in promised tip I let him go. Actually I could use few hours of sleep so no hard feelings. Word on Nantra Silom, location is excellent in Silom soi 8 , hotel new and modern with spiffy elevator which doesn't stop on 2nd floor so if you have room there you need to climb flight of stairs. Breakfast is basic but in this heat nutritious enough , standard room on smaller side and no closets but no complains at 1000 baht other than durian. Some previous occupant kept durian in room's refrigerator and every time I opened it smell filled whole room immediately and it was quite unpleasant. day 2 finished and time to pack and go to Pattaya to see what happens there

If one is looking for positive comments about Tawan boys it will be plenty coming in this report, rest assured. I spent a lot of time in this bar on this trip , both alone and with friends and have mostly accolades to sing but it will be an exception. But over all I was happy there and can't wait to return.

if you know it's wrong choice why you are doing it ? And admitting to feeling better ? You are acting like a thief, sorry for being blunt