PeterRS

Everyone tells me it has permanently closed. Seems the owner plans to move to Chiang Mai. He certainly doesn't need the money as he is from a very rich family. But if he does depart, I cannot see anyone else taking over and making a go of a new sauna there. As @Londoner points out, the land value so close to the business district must be humungus, the more so when Babylon only represents part of that parcel. Much more likely I'd reckon will be a developer snapping it up to erect a 40 storey apartment complex like the Sukhothai Residences across the road - provided, that is, it can get round the city's legislation about the size of that soi, because it is too small for anything other than an 8 storey building unless there is another access. I totally agree about the first Babylon at the top of the soi. Much more compact, often packed and as far as I recall many more younger and professional Thais. So popular that there were queues to get in at the weekends. 1) Although the buildings in the gay area are on the small side for Shinjuku, some pack 5 or 6 bars on to one level. But then most are tiny with seating for not much more than a dozen. Very few have much standing area except those at sweet level or in a basement like the popular GB. But like Bangkok, the number of bars is decreasing. Even in Shinjuku's main avenues, shops, cafes and restaurants are packed often with up to 6 on each floor. 2) Difficult to know if Tokyo can grow much larger. Even with a declining population nationwide, though, I expect there will still be many wanting to move to the city or its multitude of suburbs.

Well, that at least is the heading of an article in the Pattaya Mail about a month ago which seems not to have been picked up here. I am about the last to trust anything in that rag but no doubt some of its articles have more than a degree of truth. This one focuses on the police raid on the Faros sauna in Bangkok and the arrest of 60 men, seemingly all Thais. (The Bangkok Post claims the number was 62 and the establishment is Faros 2). The concern of the police allegedly was less the sex angle but the use of chemsex and drug trafficking during the covid restrictions. Allegedly 37 of the group tested positive for drug use. "Good samaritans" had tipped off the police. On the other hand, the President of the Bangkok Rainbow Association said he was "concerned that people may now believe all gays are promiscuous and disease spreaders," a rather fatuous remark in my view given that there have been gay saunas in Bangkok for at least 35 years and quite a few very public raids on several during that time. He also claimed that "saunas were not just about sexual activity but also the human need for social interaction and mingling." Really? Aren't there bars for that? One issue that has been aired before about city centre locations becoming too expensive is also addressed. "Some say that an under-exposed reason for the closure of many gay meeting places, including saunas, is the process of gentrification. This means that, as property rents and purchase prices rise steeply in urban centers, traditional users are forced to leave to make way for expensive tower blocks, malls and top-tier residence developments. It is certainly true that much of Bangkok’s traditional night life, straight and gay, has already been scattered geographically by the huge demolition or redevelopment projects in downtown districts. "Khun Prasert of the Rainbow Sky Alliance said, 'Queer spaces like saunas will survive because people want to mix with like-minded groups, but there will be a lot fewer choices post-Covid. That’s for sure.'” https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/news/future-of-gay-saunas-in-thailand-now-under-the-microscope-357600

Hong Kong is to ban all flights from the UK to curb the spread of the Delta variant of Covid. The UK is to be classified as an "extremely high-risk" country, the highest rating Hong Kong has for pandemic travel. The ban will come into effect on 1 July and affect all incoming passenger flights from Britain. It also comes amid political tensions between China and the west over a crackdown on dissent in Hong Kong. The ban means people who'd recently spent more than two hours in Britain wouldn't be allowed to board flights to Hong Kong from any airport. The city's authorities said the decision was based on the "recent rebound" of the pandemic in the UK and the "widespread Delta variant virus strain" in the country. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57647613

The Yoovidhya family is one of Thailand's wealthiest. Last year Forbes estimated their wealth at US$20 billion. Like the mega-rich in many countries, much of this is hidden in tax havens in the Caribbean. Not surprisingly the family's network of companies appeared in the infamous Panama Papers but some of the paperwork was found to be missing. Mind you, the family was far from the only Thais to appear on the list. 1,400 other Thai names were thrown up. Other countries were relatively quick to investigate the Panama Papers revelations. Thailand, on the other hand, called the information merely "rumours". Thailand's Money Laundering Office became involved but after years that toothless tiger has done nothing. An article two years ago in The Walrus with contributions from Associated Press reported, "Law professor Viraphong Boonyobhas, director of Chulalongkorn University’s business-crime and money-laundering data bank in Bangkok, would not speak directly about the Yoovidhyas or any other Thai person or company, saying he feared for his legal and physical safety. But he noted that, usually, when it comes to stashing money in offshore accounts, 'people do this to hide corrupt money.'" Somewhat ironically it was the murderer himself (whose nickname is Boss) who set reporters on the trail of the company's tax schemes. "The Yoovidhya family’s efforts to hide assets show how billions in private wealth can be moved around the world with minimal regulation to avoid tax and other legal constraints. The extent of the family’s confidential deals was inadvertently exposed by Boss and his social-media-loving cousins during his time on the run: they had posted photos of Boss walking into a London townhouse, and they even included the address. In April 2017, days after Boss’s attorney told a Bangkok court that his client couldn’t show up because he was on a mission in the United Kingdom, a reporter called out questions to the Red Bull heir on his London doorstep: 'What is your mission in the UK, Boss? What are you doing here? Are you going to Thailand to meet with prosecutors?' Smiling slightly, eyes averted, Boss gave no answer. Hours later, he and his parents hurried out of the home with suitcases. That was the last time Boss was seen in public." Since then "An investigation into the five-storey brick home showed that it is the address Boss’s father, Chalerm Yoovidhya, gave when incorporating Siam Winery Trading Plus in the UK in 2002, and that his mother, Daranee Yoovidhya, used when opening a food-related business there in 2006. But, according to AP, the listed owner of the home, and at least four other multimillion-dollar properties in London, isn’t the Yoovidhyas—it’s Karnforth Investments, a company incorporated in the British Virgin Islands, according to the Panama Papers. After more digging into the Yoovidhyas, it became clear that there were more shell games being played." These games involve several more offshore Caribbean based companies which channel cash back and forth between each. And of the killer himself? Well, despite being on the run and allegedly unable to be located, social media has shown photos of him in at least nine countries since a first Interpol alert was supposed to have been issued. "Stops include the Wizarding World of Harry Potter in Osaka, Japan, where he posed, grinning and wearing robes from Hogwarts’s darkest dorm, Slytherin house. He’s cruised Monaco’s harbour, snowboarded Japan’s fresh powder, and celebrated his birthday at Restaurant Gordon Ramsay in London. This means that, while authorities say they’ve had no idea where Boss was, his friends, family, and all of their followers seem to have had no doubt about his whereabouts and the good times he’s been having. One summer, in Japan, he posted a ten-second video of sausage and eggs decorated with seaweed eyes, tagging a young relative. His parents responded with a thumbs up." Meanwhile the widow of the murdered traffic policeman was provided with compensation of just 3 million baht for the death of the 47 year old victim. https://thewalrus.ca/corruption-did-the-heir-to-the-red-bull-empire-get-away-with-murder/

I certainly do not wish to see it as just an academic debate. This country needs change. Over decades I have made Thai friends from a variety of social backgrounds, including a couple who have been business colleagues and who I'd put on the border of being hi-so. All of them want to see changes. All of them vote. But not one has the remotest clue how it can be achieved. Perhaps it's partly the general Thai main pen rai attitude. But we can definitely agree about the education system. It needs a complete revamp. On a lighter note, I recall a meeting I had a few years ago at Siam BTS station. By one of the lines I saw a stout African American lady looking very lost. I asked if I could help. In a strong southern American accent she said she'd been trying to find Paragon but none of the station staff could tell her. Is it near here? I asked her to turn around 180 degrees. There in large letters was Paragon! She laughed. I asked if she was a tourist. No, she said," I'm here from Louisiana in the USA." So you're working? "Yes". I myself was having a little difficulty understanding her. It turned out she was a teacher. The Education people in Washington had asked for volunteers to teach English in Bangkok for 3 months. She thought it would be a good chance to see Thailand. "But the students are dreadful," she added. "They never do anything I ask them." I felt like suggesting this was almost certainly because none of them would have a clue what she was saying. But I just saw her to her exit. Why the US authorities would believe that anyone with any major accent would be right to teach English to kids in Thailand totally beats me! As for citizens demanding changes, again I agree. But like my Thai friends, I see no way of this happening even if every man and woman were given a vote and a political Party standing for election with a platform that included such changes. So we agree to differ. And I suggest that @z909's comments below are apt. I for one will cease this discussion. I will leave the last word to you should you so wish. I agree totally about the superb job done by Lee and his cohorts. But I totally disagree about the PAP having done such a good job that no-one wants an alternative. From dozens of visits to Singapore, I have seen how the PAP was never prepared to brook any form of opposition. It took many measures to cut opposition off long before more than a handful of candidates ever reached parliament which has a total of 89 directly elected seats. The Constitution allows also for up to 18 non-elected seats. Just take the case of the very first opposition party member to be elected, J. B. Jeyaretnam a Crown Council lawyer who had been Registrar at the Supreme Court. He won a by election in 1981 and was re-elected in 1984. But in 1986 he was expelled for a conviction allegedly for falsifying his Party's accounts. That was all a lie. The conviction was subsequently overturned by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council which called the conviction a "grievous injustice". He returned to parliament in 1997 but was again expelled in 2001 for failing to keep up payments for a libel action he had taken out against the PAP and lost. These were among the tactics of Lee Kwan Yew to maintain control.

I have no doubt you are correct in how democracy works in Thailand. But given that each vote seems to help elect both individual representatives and then those on the party list, I do not see how this is very different from the sort of democracy practised in many other countries. Is the antiquated Electoral College system in the USA the equivalent of one man one vote? No! What you seem to want is for the popular vote to be the means of electing the ruling Party. It's never happened in the USA. Are the British and other constituency systems representative of one man one vote? No! Here again governments can be elected by a minority of the votes, sometimes a substantial minority. One man one vote does not result in the majority of votes electing the rulers! My question to you was not about one man one vote which I know you want and which I agree should be the basis of a true functioning democracy, it was about how you will achieve Thailand becoming more democratic. Perhaps I should have added 'given Thailand's current and historical circumstances', for we should not be having merely a theoretical discussion. Improving the one man one vote system alone does not democracy create. Since you have not provided suggestions, I'll start. You need a population which understands what democracy is, which is prepared to participate by understanding the issues and then voting. A population which pays no attention or merely sits back and votes as he/she is told to vote as occurs in Thailand will never ensure true participation. You need functioning democratic systems in place - a system of checks and balances which ensures politicians are held accountable; an independent judiciary and a rule of law which applies to all citizens not a select few; a free press (at least up to a point); the right of citizens to have their own views, religion and culture; the right of free assembly; the right to protest . . . That's a start. But being frank, it is not going to happen. In my view after decades in Asia and Thailand, only through a major revolution will the changes you want to see happen. One man one vote will not result in such changes. Fo example, how will one man one vote completely overhaul the judicial system? Maybe a revolution will occur. I doubt it. Clearly you will probably do not agree, but I still would like to hear your views about how a properly functioning democracy can work here in Thailand.

The issue of the Red Bull heir who murdered the policeman in his Ferrari ought to be relatively simple. There is no dispute about the facts of the case, the accident, the 177kph speed of the car on Sukhumvit, the trail of oil leading to the Red Bull family compound, the failure of the family to release the heir to the police for many hours, the attempt to have a family retainer blamed as the driver, the presence of cocaine in his blood which he was taking for a tooth compliant and the death of a key witness. As for the cocaine, the Thai Dental Council trashed that idea when it confirmed cocaine has not been used for dental treatment for over 100 years! When being summoned for his five court appearances he conveniently hopped on his private jet and made sure he was in somewhere like Singapore on the dates in question. The arrest warrant is another matter. After he had escaped and spent some years overseas "apparently" unable to be found (first joke), "allegedly" the government, on the initiative of the Prime Minister (second joke) had Interpol issue a "Red Notice", the organisation's most urgent alert (third joke). A friend here who knows the senior Interpol officer in Thailand told me that Interpol was never asked to issue any alert! How true this was at that time, I do not know. But you can view all the 7666 Red Notices currently in force on Interpol's website. Guess what? Vorayuth Yoovidhya is not on the list. So who lied? The whereabouts of this fugitive from justice should not be difficult even if, as is surely likely, he is travelling under a new passport. The Red Bull presence is in many part of the world, notably at the calendar of Formula 1 car races. Indeed the Red Bull team has won the last 4 races and 5 out of the last 7. That the murdering fugitive has not been present at one or more of these races belies belief - at least my belief.

As to SIngapore, having dragged what was virtually a swamp with no natural resources to one of the richest and most admired countries in the world in an incredibly short time, I do not believe Singapore can be ruled out so dismissively. Understandably there is a degree of dissent within the city state, but I doubt if you will find many Singaporeans who are unhappy with their lot. I believe economic development either must precede or go hand in hand with democracy, as in the case of Taiwan. In Singapore I am less sure about the people being afraid. I think the government is afraid! If achieving equality means giving a population the right to elect its leaders, presumably that means something along the lines of one man one vote. But Thailand essentially has that. Thailand was also one of the first countries in the world to give women the right to vote. But that has not resulted in equality. So 'achievement' cannot only stand on that. What other factors/institutions are required to ensure equality? As for the Churchill quote, I believe it is very important to remember the time when it was made. By far the mass of the population in the west took as their understanding of what was going on in their countries and what their leaders, politicians and would-be politicians were saying only from a variety of newspapers or from the radio. Those newspapers were owned by rich men with their own political bias. So the sources of information were very few. The class system remained in operation. If you were a working man i the UK, you voted for the Labour party, most often because your Union advised you to vote Labour. The Unions ensured that Churchill, having won the war, was immediately voted out of office. Nowadays entire populations have a vast array of information thrust down their throats from so many differing outlets that could never have been imagined seven decades ago. Further, a small number of huge international companies and hugely wealthy individuals now skew elections to help to persuade individual voters to vote for the candidates or the platforms they want elected. Lies are frequently becoming the norm. Would Britain have left the EU if the Brexiteers had not openly lied with banners on buses and repeated in the mass media that leaving the EU would result in an extra £350 million per week for the National Health Service? This was roundly condemned at the time, but it was an extremely potent claim given the very high degree in which the NHS is regarded in the UK. I cannot estimate how many were influenced by this. But I have a strong suspicion it could have been one of the key tipping points when it came to the referendum. Real facts are now routinely dismissed as fake news. With all this flood of information, how does an individual make a considered opinion in an election? Then there is the popularity issue. Would Donald Trump have been elected had he not been the star of a popular TV show? Would Joseph Estrada have been elected President of The Philippines had he not been a famous actor? Both were impeached. Estrada ended up in jail. There seems a reasonable chance that Trump's future may be similar. Finally, looking back at history, democracies cannot be the be all and end all of government if only because they have a habit of not lasting. Two years ago there was an interesting Wall Street Journal article. titled "The Global Crisis of Democracy" This started by pointing out that by 2006 the number of countries with democratic governments had reached its highest level - 86. It goes on - "But we are now at a precarious moment. Democracy faces a global crisis. We have seen 12 consecutive years of erosion in global levels of political rights and civil liberties, with many more countries declining than gaining each year, according to the nonprofit group Freedom House. Over the past decade, one in six democracies has failed. Today only a bare majority of the world’s larger states remain democracies. "Nor do the numbers capture the full extent of the danger. Behind the statistics is a steady, palpable corrosion of democratic institutions and norms in a range of countries. China, Russia and their admirers are making headway with a new global narrative, hailing strongman rule—not government by the people—as the way forward in difficult times." https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-global-crisis-of-democracy-11558105463

Part of the reason the elite get away literally with 'murder' is because there are no juries in Thailand. Justice is totally dependent on the judges. No need to guess what class they represent! Add to that a large dose of corruption and you have the answers!

That's a fair point. I think every democracy should learn to a certain extent as it progresses and voters become more aware of the meaning of the vote. But I am not as optimistic as you. I see what has been happening in the USA, the UK and some other European countries where democracy simply does not function as it should and as it did some decades ago. I see what I regard as the idiotic stupidity of certain US elected officials to overturn a legitimate democratic election using undemocratic means. And a former President who plays this lie to the hilt. Does this happen in a mature democracy? But somehow the public accept the flaunting of the much vaunted US Constitution by elected officials for their own selfish ends. I see on our doorstep here in Asia a democracy that has been for the most part totally dysfunctional in The Philippines ever since the Americans gave up its colony. A democracy in Japan that is not a democracy. And a dictatorship in Singapore where, despite citizens having a vote, there has only ever been one ruling party because it uses the power of the state and the legislature either to ban or jail those who stand against it! Much admired Singapore is essentially a benevolent dictatorship, but still a dictatorship and still a country where gay rights are stuck in an old colonial time warp. After all, we should always remember what Lee Kwan Yew said - "I say without the slightest remorse, that we wouldn’t be here, we would not have made economic progress, if we had not intervened on very personal matters – who your neighbour is, how you live, the noise you make, how you spit, or what language you use. We decide what is right. Never mind what the people think.” He also said - “We have to lock up people, without trial, whether they are communists, whether they are language chauvinists, whether they are religious extremists. If you don't do that, the country would be in ruins.” Is that the language of democracy? I doubt if anyone would agree. Yet Lee did develop Singapore's economy spectacularly and he gave the citizens many benefits like their own housing, pension funds, much personal wealth and much else besides. The groundwork for a well functioning democracy is in place. But it does not exist! So let me throw the question back to @readerand @vinapu. I have had my say. You believe that Thailand needs to be more democratic. I agree, but I have absolutely no idea, given all the issues I have raised, how that can be achieved with any degree of success. So let me ask you what you believe is achievable in Thailand, in Thai society and in Thai politics which will strengthen democracy and make life more equal and more fair for all its citizens? And then how do you go about actually achieving that?

I certainly do not disagree. I think we differ in terms of how the whole process should be started. I do not believe the issue of gay rights, gay acceptance, equality etc. can be legislated at the outset if society is basically against it. It first must come from society (or key elements of it) which then puts pressure on the legislators. This is how Taiwan developed its hugely successful gay agenda. It is how Japan is slowly moving forward. When I lived in Japan I never for a moment believed that gay rights would ever be accepted. Over time and with observance of typical Japanese politeness, In 2015 the up-market Shibuya district in Tokyo was the first to recognise a form a civil partnership with certain benefits for same-sex couples. Now there are 103 municipalities and three prefectures with similar systems in place. These constitute around 38% of the Japanese population. At the same time, public opinion polls have been moving also in favour of gay rights, with a majority in favour - of which a big majority are those under 60. Each country has to find its own way. Gay Pride is a start for some. A Parade in the capital city that involves a maximum of 2,000 people, quite a few of whom have other distinctly controversial non-gay objectives, is hardly going to persuade any group of legislators anywhere that the status quo should be changed. It is that dilution that I objected to and which I believe ruined the gay elements of last year's Bangkok Parade. Some students calling for the ouster of the Prime Minister and changes to the monarchy only got a lot of people quite angry when a Pride Parade surely has to be primarily a celebration of being gay. As Khun Natee realised decades ago, it is a long process and in Thailand it has to be clearly focussed.

There are probably gangs in most major cities. Many are violent. It may come as a surprise that there are deadly rivalries between student gangs in Bangkok - notably Technical Colleges. When I say "deadly", that is precisely what I mean. Few if any tourists and residents will be aware of them but they are to be found near at least one major shopping mall – MBK. This report from Channel News Asia formed the basis of a TV documentary shown some months ago. It is almost frightening. BANGKOK: Vocational student Kamonwich Suwanthat was interning at a multinational logistics company and was a few months away from graduation. His parents were certain his education would change the family’s fortunes. Until then, the 24-year-old was also helping his mother to make ends meet by selling noodles at her roadside market stall on most nights. That was where, on Oct 12, a stranger shot him four times, point-blank, and fled. The fourth-year student bled to death in front of a crowd and his mother. She did not realise it then, but his place of study was the reason he was targeted — by a school gang. The three students arrested a month later told the police they had no personal dispute with him, and gave this statement: “He was chosen simply because he can be killed in the same way his schoolmates killed our senior.” They were from the Pathumwan Institute of Technology located just one kilometre from the victim’s school, the Rajamangala University of Technology Tawan-ok, Uthenthawai Campus. Deadly violence between vocational students with a potentially bright future is common in Thailand. In Bangkok alone, there are years when more than 1,000 cases of brawls have been reported by mid-year. And the rivalry that cost Kamonwich his life is a seven-decade, tit-for-tat grudge between two schools in the same neighbourhood as the MBK Centre, the giant shopping complex popular with tourists. “Once I knew it was a school rivalry, I knew the (shooter) couldn’t be anyone else but a student from the institute nearby,” said Thai Rath TV crime journalist Nattapong Riabsantia . . . When Thai youths leave high school, they are separated into general or vocational education tracks. Those who pick the latter enrol at one of Thailand’s 416 vocational institutes to learn trade-specific skills. Pathumwan Institute of Technology is one of them. The 87-year-old school trains future mechanics, technicians and electricians, among other trades. Despite its notoriety, this is where 19-year-old Nim chose to study electrical engineering “because what I learn will allow me to find work back in my hometown”. Her first semester, however, shows how the troublemaking can start. She signed up for a welcome camp that turned out to be a hazing experience — a rite of passage centred on loyalty to the school that brought the students together. These camps, organised by the seniors without official sanction, are common in many Thai colleges and last mostly a week to a month. But at Pathumwan Institute, there can be such activities for the whole semester. Nim (her nickname) gave up after two weeks. But those who endure get a “special’ T-shirt with the school crest, which they wear like a badge of honour. And that invites danger. Benz, a fourth-year senior, said: “When we wear a school shirt with a logo, it’s very easy for us to spot who wants to fight or who wants to have power over us.” To students like him, however, the school crest is a way to gain respect. Fees for vocational colleges are heavily subsidised, so they attract students from poorer areas that rely on agriculture. They often must leave their families living outside the city but get a chance to be initiated into a tight-knit fraternity. “Being part of this helps me to overcome an inferiority complex,” admitted Benz. Third-year student Pae added: “We’re like family. The minute I step in, someone will greet (me) and ask if I’ve eaten … ‘Do you have money for food? I’ll give you money.’” As new members learn to beware of students from a long-standing rival school, it is often their sense of loyalty and belonging that drives them to acts of violence. Pathumwan old boy and former army soldier Sompode Subpradit would know. He was expelled from the school 50 years ago for taking part in violent brawls. Now that he is retired, he “always” visits the school, and the students see him as an elder brother. Having listened to them, he said: “Sometimes the love and bond between friends and juniors is the reason for the violence. “If a junior student is attacked by a student from the rival school, the seniors would be sad and would take revenge to protect the school’s pride.” Over the years, the authorities have tried all kinds of measures to stop school gangs, from sending offenders to army boot camps to discipline them, to holding outreach programmes. Even a nationwide oath of peace, taken by almost a million vocational students in honour of King Bhumibol Adulyadej when he died in 2016, has not ended the inter-school violence. At Pathumwan Institute, students have worn a standard vocational college uniform since 1975, which many other colleges have also adopted. This uniform does not have the school logo, making its students indistinguishable from others. They are also told to be cautious, and the rules do include not allowing them to wear the school’s logo or colours outside the school grounds, in a bid to prevent rival students from identifying them. But it is clear that there are renegades flaunting their school crest. And the Thai police continue to enter the fray to stop the bloodshed. “Typically (from past cases), students use knives to stab each other. They’d grab the rival’s neck and stab him,” said Suppression Squad Leader Sarun Ausub from the Pathumwan District Police Station. “If we (the police) aren’t there to check on them, they may stab each other to death. That’s happened before.” A clash in August 2017, for example, which happened outside the MBK Centre, left one student dead after he was stabbed. Since then, the police and both schools have come together with a plan to stop these brawls . . . The Kingdom faces a shortage of technical and vocational workers. And violence among schools only pushes parents to steer clear of vocational education for their children, even though for some, their livelihood from farming now brings dismal returns. Pae is one of those from a rural area. He has been suspended for one and a half years for staring rival students down. But he has not given up on studying, “no matter how rebellious” he is. “It’s my dream to study here,” he said. “I’m poor. My mother is poor. If I don’t try, I won’t be able to survive.” Kamonwich, on the other hand, lost that chance simply because his profile — most likely picked out via social media — was similar to a Pathumwan old boy who was killed while selling food with his aunt. Mr Nattapong, who interviewed Kamonwich’s parents, said: “I could tell they were so sad from their eyes, because they’d just lost the son who’d have one day been a tower of strength for the family. “I’ll never understand (why vocational students fight). I can’t believe they kill each other because of reasons that are nonsense. The students shouldn’t die like this, because some of them really want to study peacefully." https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/cnainsider/shopping-haven-mbk-bangkok-thailand-deadliest-school-rivalries-11547204

I'm not wholly convinced that the falling birth date can be considered a reason for a reduction in the number of Thai gay boys and those working in the bars. As this chart shows, the Thai birth rate has been relatively constant over the last 20 years. I reckon most boys in the bars would traditionally have been in the 18 - 25 range. So today that would mean boys born between around 1996 and 2003. There was certainly a largish dip between about 1996 and 2001 but not markedly so since then. What the chart might reveal is the reason for so many Thai boys working in the bar scene in the 1980s and early 1990s. An even more obvious reason IMHO would surely be the campaigns run by the government in the 1970s and 1980s to discourage parents from having too many children. The birthrate in 1970 was totally unsustainable and had to be brought down. Mechai Viravaidya took it on himself to devise ways to make birth control acceptable throughout the country. He popularised the use of condoms with events like condom blowing contests to the extent that they became known as "mechais", and made oral contraceptives available without a physician being involved in the transaction. I am sure many readers have been to his restaurant Cabbages and Condoms in Sukhumvit Soi 12. Perhaps Mechai was too successful. But as the chart shows, birthrates have fallen dramatically over the entire region, although it is true that they have not fallen as much in neighbouring countries, even rising in Vietnam.

I agree with almost all the comments of both @reader and @z909 in their recent posts. I have just two points. 1. We all know only too well that millions of votes in Thailand are bought. Thaksin won 20 years ago because he dispensed vast sums to village leaders who then told their communities how to vote. He then used the powers of the state to hide this corruption and the fact that he should never have been elected in the first place since he had hidden vast amounts of his assets and not declared them as mandated by law. Did anyone seriously believe that his housekeeper and gardener each owned many millions of shares in his company? Of course not. But then he bribed the Constitutional Court to look the other way and it ruled 4 to 3 that it was a genuine oversight! Please do not mistake me. Thaksin did a lot of good for the country. He also did quite a lot of bad and he again used the levers of power to ensure he personally did not need to pay nearly 2 billion baht in tax on a share sale. By controlling the media and having some journalists and editors fired, he ensured much of his dirty deeds were given little coverage. His extra judicial killings of almost 2,500 people, he alleged before a crowd, had rid Thailand of drugs. As if that lie justified those deaths! Then take his sister whose strings were pulled by her brother exiled in Dubai. The rice pledging scheme was known to be a massive economic disaster before it was even implemented - every rice expert in the world said so - but it was popular in the countryside. How many billions did it lose? Around 600 billion baht and it is estimated it will take the government - i.e. the people - another 8 years before that debt is finally paid off. The implementation of the one tablet per child was another popular vote catcher but a disaster in its implementation. After the debacle of the Chinese firm awarded the contract to supply them being unable to fulfil it, all the kids who finally received tablets wanted to do was play games on them! I won't go on. I suppose my point really is: did those in the countryside - the majority of the population - really know what they were voting for? Did they know the effects this would have on their villages, towns and the country as a whole? I doubt it. There are few democratic institutions in Thailand, few checks and balances, and those that exist can be bought by those in power. Just providing one man with one vote does not democracy make! Until Thailand's education system teaches all kids about democracy and how it should function - almost the same as Taiwanese kids being taught Confucius' values as part of their curriculum - and until real checks and balances are put in place, Thailand is never going to have anything more than a sham democracy. 2. The thread is about Gay Pride and who leads the way to Equality. I have made my points about Pride marches being taken over by those with a separate agenda. My own view is that a Pride march here should have just three goals other than showing the government and the public that there is a strong gay community out there - understanding, acceptance and equality. The organisers have to ensure that March participants agree to this and to have Parade marshalls along the way to ensure that the March takes place smoothly. Diluting the message with political and other objectives ruins it.

I believe that would be Australia but I do not know if there are specific requirements of non-citizens. Other readers might know if the couple have to spend any period of time in the country between registration and the actual marriage, for example. That might make it quite a costly venture for two people.

I will be really interested to find out how many couples will be affected by this Court ruling. After all, it depends on the couple being legally married, something that is not possible in Hong Kong and I suspect there are very few. Flying over to get married in Taiwan is not going to help because Taiwan's gay marriage law requires one partner to be Taiwanese.

Taiwan is of course different. But, with respect, I think you forget that Taiwan was a very poor island under a repressive authoritarian military dictatorship for 40 years until 1987. During this period and for 15 years beforehand Thailand was supposed to be a representative democracy. Chiang Kai-shek did not believe in elections. He believed firmly in Confucianism and rule from the top. Politics was a matter for the elite, not the average citizen. Only three parties were permitted in elections - his own island-wide Kuomintang and two far smaller ones. Although Chiang's son introduced democracy. Chiang Ching-kuo was of almost the same mind as his father. The difference was that he understood the shifting international ground re Taiwan's position in the world. Even after introducing democracy, he all but ensured that Chiang Kai-shek's Kuomintang Party won elections and kept winning them. His major contribution was ensuring a greater social and economic freedom which the Taiwanese grabbed with all hands. The KMT finally lost power in the 2000 elections but regained it in 2008 after major corruption scandals rocked the Democratic Party. It was Sun Yet-sen who tried to introduce democracy in China following the overthrow of the Imperial system. That failed, but his teachings found their way to post War Taiwan and all children are taught them in school. But it seems unlikely these would have had much effect without the massive economic advances made after the elder Chiang's death. Taiwan's economic growth was nothing short of spectacular. As @reader points out, the distribution of wealth was spread wide thereby generating a national cohesiveness which enabled democratic institutions to be established and reinforced. Taiwan's population gave the government, even though it was the KMT, credit for making the economic miracle happen. Taiwan's GDP in 1952 was $1.33 billion. By the year 2000 it had risen to $330 billion! By then, though, cohesiveness was not a result of issues with mainland China, for Taiwan companies had been increasingly investing in China where it employed huge numbers of Chinese citizens. China was far too busy with building its own economy. It is only very recently that the Taiwan issue has once again come to the forefront. If there is a lesson from Taiwan, it is surely that Asian countries need to develop economic growth and ensure this trickles down throughout the population before spending time on developing democratic institutions - especially in a country like Thailand where extensive corruption is endemic throughout the country. Thailand has had in effect only one decade of major economic growth - from 1986 to 1996 when annual GDP increases averaged 9%. Thereafter corny capitalism and corruption resulted in the Asian Economic Crisis starting in Thailand and putting the entire country back well over a decade. And then came the 2008 finical meltdown affecting most of the world. The dilemma for Thailand is therefore: how to get rid of corruption and ensure not just clean government but one that has the interests of the entire nation at its core. That will in itself bring greater equality. But how you achieve that, given the country's history, I have not the faintest idea. I believe it only has a chance when the country develops leaders who themselves are neither kleptomaniacs nor crony capitalists like almost all who have risen to the top of the tree in recent decades.

I am sorry I cannot answer your question. I can only assume though there has to be quite a lot of gay sex around all the towns and villages. Several organisations sprang up in the late 1980s and 1990s to take the message about HIV prevention and condom use around the country. Before I was partnered six years ago I travelled quite a bit around the country and had no difficulty finding attractive guys in places like Udon Thani, Ubon Ratchathani, Maha Sarakham, Korat, Khon Kaen etc. Also, surely if he is looking at sites like Hornet and Romeo he is going to see mostly farang? I understand there are several Thai only sites in Thai and these must be pretty active. But another issue that has to be considered, sadly, is familial incest. I have a friend from Chiang Rai who was molested quite a few times by his uncle when he was 14 and 15. He only found out when he came to Bangkok to study at the flight academy. He passed all his exams with 'flying' (sorry) colours and spent secondments with two airlines at BKK working in passenger services. His dream was always to work with an airline. But he then discovered the qualifications for every airline said "HIV neg essential". Odd that this was not a problem during his training. He ended up working on the front desk of a major hotel. He is paid well but his heart is not in it. He still has hopes that he will be able to work with an airline eventually.

From what I have read, Bangkok's Pride Parade which had taken place for several years died in 2006 largely because of disagreements between the organisers and arguments amongst the mostly farang-owned gay businesses which had traditionally provided its financing. That year it attracted quite a large crowd of onlookers but I suspect this was partly due to the fact that it was held on the same day as the annual Loy Krathong Festival, one of Thailand's most loved events which attracts a lot of tourists. A very small Parade was held last year but the route was only between Sam Yan and Silom. That is an extremely short distance which you can walk slowly in not much more than 20 minutes. In Taipei the March lasts around 3 hours. By the time last year's Bangkok March reached Silom, numbers had reached between 1,000 and 2,000 depending on which news media you read (Reuters quotes the smaller number). However, let's be very frank. That was not a Gay Pride March celebrating gayness. Although it started out with some political objectives by calling for greater democracy and equal rights, it was infiltrated by others demanding the resignation of the Prime Minister and a reform of the monarchy. Any group of people with some calling for the latter two objectives was in my view ultra stupid. For what should have been a celebration of being gay, that other group used gayness for non-gay political purposes and therefore seriously diluted the primary message which I suggest should have been equality. If anyone doubts that, guess what the media coverage highlighted? Taipei's annual March has always has a simple social message - but just one message that all in society can relate to. Occasionally it has incorporated a simple political message but it has never aimed to divide, only encourage. Also being frank, the enormous success of that March - and later the other Pride marches held in other Taiwan cities - unquestionably played a key part in the result that Taiwan is the only country where gay marriage is now on the statue books. Many in last year's Bangkok marchers wanted political reforms. That should have been a totally separate March in my view.

I also voted 'Other'. I would have preferred one selection either being 'Asia' as a whole or adding in 'North Asia'. I live in Thailand and I will be visiting Japan and Taiwan just as soon as it becomes possible. I may also add in South Korea not having been there for about 15 years.

I have hardly watched any western gay porn since the days of Johann Paulik and his Bel Ami vdos. So I cannot comment on current standards. On the other hand, I have watched far more Asian porn and seen how some of the producers have developed with product that offer great looking models and considerable creativity. Japan has had its own brand of gay vdos for decades. Some of the boys, especially if you are into twinks or heavy butch types, look amazing. Unfortunately, too many are totally formulaic. See one and you have seen a thousand others, although you will occasionally find a studio that features mcch stronger story lines. Then the curse is that so many are stuck with Japanese law which demands pixelation. Sadly for us today, Japan had no such restrictions in magazines, books and its famous erotic wood carvings until westerners arrived with Commander Perry followed by shiploads of Christian missionaries. Such carvings (shunga) had in fact been banned during the later Shogun era but the ban was never really enforced. Since the end of World War 2 and the American occupation, much more attention has been paid to the Code in Japanese law restricting the distribution of 'indecent' materials. Hence the arrival of pixelation! It all seems so ridiculous given that nudity is not a big thing in Japan. In fact in Japanese hot springs and public bath houses it is totally common. But . . . ! A lot of Korean porn is also pixelated. More is acted out but nothing is really seen apart from tits and ass. Taiwan seems to be turning out much better short videos with great looking models and decent story lines. I have rarely seen movie-length Thailand videos,Most of what is produced seems geared for internet with little creativity - the same shots, same crude story lines but often some great looking models. Am I missing something?

Daddy - please, I want more beef!

Thanks @spoon. Sorry I was not specific. I was more interested in what i have felt is a gradual return to religious fundamentalism in Malaysia than in attitudes to gay sex. From visiting the country and reading both local and international media, it seems to me that Islam has become more fundamentalist over the last 40 years. Four years ago the United Nations Commission on International Religious Freedom reported that in the Malaysian context "it seems the brand of Islamism in Malaysia is prohibitive and restrictive, bordering on extremism." There also seems to be a growing rift between majority Sunni and the tiny minority of Shi'ite observers. I read that Shi'ism is banned and exists largely as a result of Saudi funding. In recent years the stricter Saudi version of Wahhabism has started to take root. And if Islam has in some areas become more extreme, I assume that bans on homosexual behaviour may also be becoming more enforced. Just thoughts.

On this point we agree. I also believe change will happen. History tells us that change is inevitable. The question then is: how long will it take? In the West and the Antipodean countries, it has come with quite remarkable speed when you consider that homophobia was quite aggressively the norm in the 1950s and even 1960s. But we cannot take those territories as an example of what will happen in Thailand and indeed much of the rest of the world. I believe it will take several generations - perhaps even a century - for deep-rooted beliefs to change. There is a reason why homophobia and anti-gay rhetoric rules in Islamic societies - it is ingrained in beliefs that are around 1,500 years old. Forget that Islam has had its own homosexual culture at times. These were surely more an aberration than any form of change. Even today in what we would probably call first world Islamic countries, homosexuality is still a major crime. When I spent three days in Doha a few years ago, there were two absolute no-nos - booze (apart thankfully from in my hotel's bars and lounges) and men having sex with men. Nothing in the last 60 years has changed that. If anything, I suspect the rise of militant Islam has resulted in a deepening of traditional beliefs. I would like to hear @spoon's view in terms of Malaysia. I first visited for a week's vacation about 40 years ago. At that time and for quite a few years thereafter, I noticed no hardening of Islamic views. The gay bar Blue Boy was packed virtually every night (great memories!!), there were several cruising areas including a very active large dark open-air car park in the evening and gay saunas were opening. More recently I have seen hard liners in parts of the country and in the media asserting themselves and their more hard line views. Are the youth of the country willing and able to change that? Let's also remember that hardening of positions re sexual matters is not limited to Islamic countries. Ultra-right wing governments are pushing back previously more relaxed boundaries. Look at Russia. Look at the Hungary's new bill passed last week. They are moving back in time. I also believe it is wrong to link an easing of sexual views and restrictions with political reform. With the greatest respect, I feel this is more of a western concept than an Asian one. Thailand's political model introducing a degree of democracy is less than 90 years old. It was forced upon the country by a small group of the military allied to an equally small number of civil servants and the intelligentsia. It had absolutely nothing to do with any political movement that had germinated and developed in the countryside. Yet many, especially amongst the existing elite and the power brokers, still hanker after the old model. Why is it that since then Thailand has had more military coups than any other country on the planet - 13 successful ones and 9 unsuccessful ones? A "coup culture" is becoming almost as ingrained as homophobia! Can students overturn this? Is there a general view amongst the country's students that change must come? Will students, like their counterparts in France in 1968, lead a general movement that includes strikes, occupations of factories and government offices in order to achieve change in Thailand? I fear not.

In this and another thread I have ben promoting a sometimes unpopular view about Thai society and its views on gays in particular. I think Khun Sirisakposh makes an important point when he says - "Gender discrimination is deeply entrenched in Thai society, and it’s so subtle that people don’t usually see it."