PeterRS

I think we have Mack himself for providing the heads up LOL

Well said spoon! Difficult to understand how anyone could miss a topic that has been written about quite extensively on all three main chat rooms. Mind you, I have read posts before and totally forgotten about them a few minutes later. Sign of age, no doubt.

The news has been on all 3 chat room boards since the new blog appeared almost a week ago!

Somehow I cant see westerners and retired expats being able to live on anything like 30K baht per month in Bangkok. Perhaps up country. The minimum wage may be one third of 30K but these workers will generally be living either with family or with a group of others in very cheap rented accommodation. Meals will be either self-cooked or bought from street stalls. Most Thais are eligible for the governments universal health coverage of 30 baht per visit or night in hospital irrespective of the nature of the illness. Visitors are not, I understand. How young teachers get by on 30K baht I have no idea unless they share a cheap apartment, have some form of subsidised meals at their schools and subsidised medical care. So as z909 points out, it IS possible. But very, very hard in my view. Its a government regulation that those on retirement visas (available to anyone after age 50) must have 65K baht coming in from overseas each month. Im like traveller123 in that I own my own apartment. I dont bother with a car and my healthcare costs a bit more (as I expect I have higher limits). I find 800K baht annually covers all that for me and allows enough within that sum for a bit of travelling and the occasional luxury. I really doubt if I could do it for even that amount if I had to rent an apartment. Aside from apartment rental, medical insurance will be the highest single expense, and that increases dramatically as you get older. As for getting round the regulation about remitting 65K from overseas to your bank account per month, a recent tightening of the regulations now make avoiding that all but impossible.

I dont recall any other gogo bar on Rama 4. I hope others can enlighten us.

I suspect that must have been My Way which was located a few yards off Rama 4 between Silom and Suriwong. Usually it had great dancing with lots of athletic boys doing their thing on 2 or 3 floor to ceiling poles. Only thing is I cannot remember shows there. So I may be wrong.

A fair suggestion. But both are in Pattaya. From reports Sunee Plaza is almost a dead zone now compared to ten years ago. Winner Bar has twinks, Nice Boys is popular and there are at most one or two more gogo bars. Also from reports, most of the boys in the many Jomtien bars are from other countries. And Jomtien has no gogo bars.

Thanks for your comments. I have singled out the two main issues for i believe there are two simple reasons. Economics being one. Failure to adapt being the second! Because for decades, well - at least two and a half decades, the bars survived well using one business model, they failed to adapt as their traditional customer base declined. This is a point you made some years ago. This model depended on lowish drinks prices and a goodly number of offs each evening/week. As has been stated on this forum before, until the early 2000s that base was largely a mix of westerners and Thais. From my observations, the Thais were the first to drift away, followed much more gradually by some of the westerners. I cannot pinpoint exactly when this occurred. Perhaps it was during the first Thaksin era Social Order campaigns in the early 2000s. As a result, the number of offs started to decline. To make up their revenues, owners started upping drinks prices. I believe this was the first time red flags were waved about the gogo bars perhaps facing long term trouble. Soon after this, the number of tourists from neighbouring Asian countries began to increase dramatically. Some obviously were gay guys wanting to sample Thailands gay scene. The ethnic customer balance began to change. From my occasional observations, the first of this group appearing in the bars were either solo travellers or small groups of friends. Most came from the richer countries like Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, Japan etc. For them higher drinks prices was no obstacle. Their objective seemed less in finding a boy to off. It was to experience the gogo scene and have a bit of fun. Many of these guys preferred to hit the increasing number of gay saunas and the massage spas, have sex there and then move on to the gogo bars later in the evening just to have a drink or two and see the shows. After one or two shows during their visit, the bars are forgotten in favour of the dance clubs like DJ Station. From other non-Thai chat rooms it is obvious that saunas, massage and clubbing remain of far greater interest to the solo/small group gay Asian travellers. So the number of offs dropped even further, other than perhaps at high season weekends. The result was that off income declined further. Instead of experimenting with different business models, most of the bar owners resorted to the traditional remedy. Bar prices had to be increased yet again. Fast forward a few years and mass tourism from Asian countries begins to flood Bangkok and Pattaya. A large percentage of this lot is on group tours for whose members gogo bars are a new and different experience. As spoon rightly points out, their home societies are more conservative. So even for the women, the sight of scantily clad boys and a few enviable erections is an excitement they can enjoy and talk about with all their girlfriends back home. Gay guys are probably also part of these tours. For them going into a bar with others from their group can mean their sexuality remains hidden. They are just enjoying a night out with their friends. Will they come back again, this time on a solo tour only to spend time in the bars? I think this is unlikely. For the future, I believe the gogo model is unlikely ever to return to what it used to be 25 years ago. The bar owners have to make money. They have been caught in a spiral of their own making. They have no choice but to cater to the new customer base. In my view that will continue, at least In theory, to depend on Asian guys and Asian women. This is the group with cash for whom it matters little if the off price is 1,500 baht short time or 3,000 baht short time. It also matters little if the boys up there on stage are Thai, Cambodian, Vietnamese or Lao because an off is not the objective. It is the women flashing 1,000 baht tips for the flash of a smile and some gentle attention from the boy of their dreams in Moonlight 2018 that are likely to be increasingly seen in bars. The danger then is the gogo bars become much more like the women only male escort bars in Japan. But that is a different topic. The one unknown I cannot fathom is: what happened to the western gay tourists? With the total number of tourists to Thailand having expanded humungously over the last quarter century, there should, again in theory, be far more solo western gay tourists coming to Thailand for the first time for whom the traditional gogo bar model ought to remain a key part of their vacation. Has word got out that the bars are just too boring in this era of much greater gay freedom? Or has a vacation in Thailand become generally too expensive? Or do we yet again place the blame on the apps?

Quite superb writing! I hope there is a novel or a travelogue - or even a series - lurking somewhere on your wish list. (I would have said bucket list but am sure you are not yet at that more advanced age.) It is so good to have you back! Yet the tales of your visit do make for rather alarming reading, in particular what the bars are offering in their new locations, the types of boys available and the lack of customers. We have known that over the last 15 years or so both the dancing on stage and the customer base has changed dramatically. Same for the introduction of boys from neighbouring countries who are often more fussy about what they will and will not do compared to the Thais who strutted their stuff years ago. O tempora! O mores! I remember in your earlier incarnation in a thread about the changing nature of the gogo bar business, you gave a splendid description with a detailed diagram of the type of bar you believed should not just be considered but would be a success. If my memory is correct, this involved breaking bar areas down to much smaller sections, each with a different type of activity. For a supplement customers could enter a room with boys dancing naked as they used to do aeons ago. With the increasing Asian customer base and its different male to female balance, I wonder if you think this might still work. Or has the market changed too much for that business model to work? I do hope that at some time in the near future you will consider an article giving us your thoughts on the differences between those times and the present, as well as offering your predictions a to how you see the gogo bar business evolving over the next few years.

I am sure others must also have complained and I certainly would not claim any credit! I suspect security were kept so busy trying to keep the bar girls and boys out of the rooms that they finally gave up! But one large cocktail would be a great and unexpected pleasure.

I cannot be certain of the year but I think the early 90s. All I remember is that the GM was named Bill Black.

I am sure you know your Bacardi as well as I know my Grey Goose and Belvedere vodka. I cant think why King Power would sell something that is not original but I do not doubt your observation. All I know is that their Grey Goose and Belvedere are the genuine article. But they are still more expensive in Thailand Duty Free than most other airports in the region!

Lovely report, thanks. You are correct. It probably was The Peninsula on Rajadamri. Now the Anantara it was built near the end of the 1970s as part of Hong Kong's Peninsula Group. Thats one reason why the lobby looks very like the lobby in the Hong Kong flagship. But bust quickly followed that economic boom and so the Peninsula management sold on to The Regent International Hotel Group in the early 1980s. Later it was then sold on to the Four Seasons. During the Regent era, there was a policy of no joiners. I once took a nice boy from the bars back to the hotel. I knew there was a security guard at the lift lobby and se we waited until he was otherwise engaged before sneaking in to one. I had forgotten about security cameras. About 3 minutes after we arrived at the room, the phone rang. I did not answer. It rang about 4 more times, and than thankfully ceased. But then came the knock on the door. I quickly realised this was security. I told my guest to be silent and did not respond. The knocking continued for about 5 minutes, after which we were finally left in peace. But I was furious! I checked the hotel regulations. Nothing there about not taking guests to the room. So I wrote an angry letter to the GM. He responded with a major apology and the offer of a free week-end. I made sure to book for two people!

King Powers website has the airport price at 680 baht per litre of Bacardi Rum. No idea about Vietnam prices but I expect they could be roughly the same. But that assumes they sell alcohol on arrival. If it was me, Id definitely buy on departure and take it with me rather than risk not getting it on arrival. https://www.kingpower.com/category/foods-and-beverages/beverages/wine-and-spirits/liquors?availability=dutyfree&lang=en&page=1&brands=bacardi&categories=liquors&priceMin=300&priceMax=2100

I do think thats unfair. Yes, the Court gave the government two years and yes, the government used up all but a few days of that time. But I think we must remember how historic this vote is. There was a lot of opposition to gay marriage in Taiwan. This was borne out in the referendum towards the end of last year when an official national referendum found that 72% of voters rejected gay marriage. Although only an advisory referendum, inevitably the result created far greater problems for the ruling party. The fact that it still pressed ahead and that the parliament as a whole elected to pass the most liberal of the three bills before it last week, the only one to mention 'marriage', has to be a huge credit to the government. Enjoy the Pride Parade. Hope you can post lots of photos.

Six weeks to upgrade the bathrooms in ALL 75 rooms? That is surely typical Thai optimistic man pen rai. It would take far more than 6 weeks elsewhere and would be undertaken on a floor by floor basis so that the hotel could continue to have guests during the renovations. But then the upgrade may merely mean putting in new shower curtains!

The Taiwan law is for Taiwanese citizens and for Taiwan citizens who have a partner from an overseas country which itself permits gay marriage. You cannot just go to Taiwan and get hitched!

Great news! Two years ago Taiwans Supreme Court gave the government two years to implement a gay marriage law. After two years talking and conservatives seeming to get the upper hand, this morning the legislators passed the most liberal of three possible bills. And it passed by a large majority - 66 votes to 27. Gay marriage will become legal from Friday next week. So which Asian country will be next?

....... and if an aircraft crashes, thats it. Boom! End of life in many cases. But with Prep you may be virtually protected from HIV but not from all the other STDs out there. Thats what I do not understand about those believing Prep is the be all and end all of protection. We know Thailand has seen a considerable rise in cases of syphilis in msm. But more problematic is likely to be gonorrhoea. Two thirds of countries around the word have reported gonorrhoea cases that now resist all down antibiotics. Personally I dont like those odds. This is not the case in Thailand - yet. But it is true in Myanmar, China, Indonesia and India. Will Thailand be far behind? https://mosaicscience.com/story/gonorrhoea-gonorrhea-STI-Thailand-clap-USA-AMR-super/

Just out of curiosity. You are taking Prep and that cute guy you are with says he is also on Prep. How would you know he is telling th truth?

Another problem is that the 4 week window is not foolproof. It does work in most cases but there can be cases of false positives and false negatives. Also there are still older test kits out there which require more than a 4 week window. So the 3 month window really is vital. Gay men do not have to have unprotected sex. It is their decision. A man, woman or child undergoing invasive surgery has no choice. They must have blood.

Thanks KevKev01. Yes, the clinic on Silom is called Pulse. It is run by a handsome gay doctor. The website has a ton of information on HIV and STDs in general. It appears a second clinic will be opened on Suk 13 this month. https://www.pulse-clinic.com

Smalls looks as though it is located in the corner building which once housed the French bistro Chez Pepin. Chez Pepin was a wonderful little place to dine with one of the best hamburgers (I know, not exactly French) in the city. The patron was French but his Thai wife did all the cooking. One summer about 4 or 5 years ago they closed for a month whilst they returned to France allegedly for a a vacation and to sort out some visa issues. They never returned. I will certainly try out Smalls but I am not keen on live jazz when I am eating or drinking with friends. I prefer a bit more peace to chat. For those interested, Prince Massage is also very close. I have never been to Backstage. I wonder if there is any connection to the Backstage Bar in Singapore which I think is a great little gay bar. It is also theatre-themed, they mix great cocktails and serve a selection of food. Highly recommended. I have only once been in The Bamboo Bar at the Mandarin Oriental. Didn't like it one bit! Small and pokey! It used to permit smoking and a number of the rich patrons were puffing away at their cigars. A drink on the Terrace by the river is cheaper and far more pleasant!

Spoon is absolutely correct. Some people seem to feel that Prep is the magic bullet that enables unprotected sex with no risk. It certainly takes most of the risk away but only 92% according to official studies. That of course does not mean you can have unprotected sex 92 times before starting to take care. A tiny risk of HIV transmission is always there. What Prep will not do is protect you against other STDs. You are much more likely to get syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, genital warts and a host of other nasties if you decide not to use a condom. In the USA alone 20 million are newly infected with one or more STDs each year and half of these are in the 15 - 24 year age group.

This is a good reason for getting a check for syphillis when you go to get your HIV test. The clinic on Silom (cant recall the name but it is across from Silom Complex and feels as though you are entering a nice club or hotel) usually tests for both.