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Throughout all this thread it seems to me three areas of delusion are emerging. First, - 'wouldn't it be nice if everyone else took the same approach to money boys in Pattaya/Bangkok as I do'. Second - 'wouldn't it be nice if everyone else paid and tipped the money boys the way I do'. And the third - and this is the real killer - is the delusion that a handful of active BMs on a small internet forum could materially alter the complex, and at times delicate, economy of the money boys and bars across the two cities. Even if we all agreed - which clearly we don't. I have the money I have, I am as generous as I can be with the money I have, and am realistic about what I can do with the money I have. I have less money than some (clearly!), and perhaps more money than others. Any yet the boys and bars of Pattaya continue to welcome us all; which is why we love the place and keep coming back

Day 7: In the heat of shopping I can’t believe it. After two and a half years of waiting, and finally being able to travel to Thailand, here I am, down to my last two full days in the Land of Smiles. It might not be a traditional visit, as I have Tiago by my side, but it was nice to see the old haunts. We still had some things we needed to do, and one of them had to do with shopping – mine looking for bargains and Thai-specific items that I’ve missed for 2 and half years, and Tiago some fighting gear he will need for the months ahead. Thailand is many things, but finding cheaper goods in the nooks and crannies of Thailand is certainly one thing that I’ve missed. On the subject of shopping, Tiago was sent a list of shops that the part-owner of the his gym recommended: I looked at the list and saw that some of these were in Chatuchak Market, the legendary outdoor market in Bangkok. Which was good, because it will give us a chance to visit the market after all these years, plus it will also satiate my shopping urges. I look at the map and yes, here they are: After a hearty breakfast at Coffee Club, we take the BTS using the Silom Line and then the Sukhumvit Line to the Mo Chit station. Leaving the station to walk to the market itself, we get a generous helping of Bangkok’s unfortunate heat and humidity. Perhaps this would be good to do earlier in the morning, when it is less like the surface of the sun, but we are both creatures of pleasure, and getting out of bed was a struggle. Regardless, we are here, basking in the infamous Bangkok heat, about to partake in an outdoor activity. Chatuchak Market is always a nice alternative to the traditional malls in Bangkok. I’m sure there is some logic to how everything was organized here, but the beauty for me about Chatuchak is how seemingly random everything is laid out, and how I find the stuff I want is always purely by chance. I have a mental note of roughly what I want to get, but basically I am content with wandering aimlessly in the market, buying stuff if I see it, and if the price is right. I am not beyond haggling, and actually look forward to it. I always leave with a healthy number of plastic bags with little things that I’ve found along the way. The experience is not without challenges though. The heat is part of the experience, but it is doubly challenging with a mask on at all times. I’m thinking part of it is ultimately performative, part of it is probably mitigating the spread of the virus, but I am at least more than willing to take part in it, if it makes the locals feel safer about me being around them. They are all mostly masked as well, so if its good enough for them, it’s good enough for me. When in Rome and all that. Unfortunately, the two stores selling Muay Thai gear were both closed when we got there, with the storefronts shut and a peak inside the stores revealed scant inventory. A casualty of the pandemic perhaps? I’d imagine 2 years of little to no tourist foot traffic in the market takes a toll eventually. I do notice other empty stalls as well. I feel bad for the locals who could not make it work and hold on until things got better, so I feel even better being here and doing my part to help the economy by spending my modest coin here. We still had one Muay Thai store left in the list that we could try, and it was sort of close to the MRT Line. Luckily Chatuchak also had an MRT Station next to it, Chatuchak Park. We head over to the station, and we were surprised that there was a full blown shopping mall at the station, and we continued our shopping there, albeit in more comfortable confines (they had air conditioning, for example). One of the finds of the trip was actually at a Starbucks in the mall, and this old-school Thailand mug, which design I prefer from the more modern mugs: After a good lunch at the mall, we make our way to the MRT, and a few stations later we get to the store called Super Export Shop. We were relieved to see that it was open, since we came out all this way. They actually had a great selection of boxing gloves, leg pads and Muay Thai shorts. Tiago was as happy as a clam, trying things on, asking me what I thought, and asked me to translate for the workers there when needed: It was quite interesting to see and experience. And also interesting to meet some other Brazilians who were shopping there as well. One Brazilian in particular was actually shopping in bulk, for a big shipment to the US, as he is based there, teaching MMA. Tiago and he had a fairly productive conversation about the sport and his goals, and they also exchanged contacts. Pretty soon he has chosen a couple of gloves, some Muay Thai shorts, some shin guards and athletic tape. He also insisted that I buy a pair of shorts he thought would look great on me, so I got those as well. I intended to pay for all this, and just wanted Tiago to keep his money for more important things. It was actually pretty reasonable, all of that was about $150. Small price to pay for my beloved to be ready for his future battles. It was 3:30 PM, so it was time to go. Before we head home, I notice there was a 7-11 walking distance to the shop. I wanted to buy some condoms, as I was preparing for the short time visit of the two Tawan hunks: Time to get happy. So next, a Short Time with Tawan…

This trip I have had only around 3 or 4 duds . Not bad with the amount I boys I have taken over the last 6 weeks . Now I guess technically I was " conned" on one boy,my stupid fault ! I was drunk and he was extremely good-looking, great talker & smile. Offed him from a massage 500b ,he had a big dick, everything I wanted from a top Once back in the room he couldn't get it up, but we tried to do other things unfortunately his phone kept ringing , mamasan at the massage place, now technically I paid him for the hour, his massage was not good and he tried to rush me ,about 30 minutes service out of 1 hour ,no sex as he was flaccid puffy cock with some silicone , So I still tipped him the agreed price of 1500.,waste of 2000 altogether though more my fault as I was drunk, and I guess he used that to his advantage. Second one a Grindr guy turns up at my hotel, unfortunately wasn't him in the pics, he finally agreed it wasn't him and his "bar" where he worked ,boy busy they send me he says . He was like 35 and feminine compared to the boy in the pics who was 25 manly with tatts ,gave him 100b as he was angry and closed the door ,he demanded 500,you pay me 500 ok he is shouting in hotel Now guys I was told that on the Grindr app you can actually video call free ?¿?? So I will try this if it's possible? Third guy i got from a Go Go bar seemed nice n sweet,polite Cut a long story short , caught him rummaging thru my clothes,pretended I didn't see him as they were only the dirty laundry.Another farang I spoke to later at a bar suggested he was only interested in me and was trying to find out more information 4th guy was 45yo was supposed to be free even put it in his profile no money boys ,got him from Grindr , I ended up giving him the pleasure,sucking his dick ,rimming him etc ,he cum and after shower asked me for money for taxi which I didn't mind maybe 100,but unfortunately I never saw a Grab at 1000 baht ! Now this is a very small percentage and you have to expect at least some negative percentage. I know CHRISTIAN would do a graph on this 🤣🤣🤣but I think it's like 4%

So, this thread was dead and three weeks later you revive it to say don't feed the trolls?

I found Numazu’s analysis of Tawan’s branding most insightful. Indeed, there is a certain “time stood still” quality to our experiences at Tawan. The bar’s format has hardly changed. Even the newer premises are just as basic as the previous place. As Numazu put it, “Going to it nowadays is like getting into a time machine, harkening back to a Bangkok that was grittier, dirtier, and maybe more fun…” Numazu's analysis can be found at thread title “Bangkok Trip Report 2022: The wait is over. What was I waiting for?”, 24 July 2022, 9:59am. I had a similar thought when I walked in last week. I liked the familiarity of it, even though I am no muscle worshipper. I liked the easy-going character of the place where the guys just come up to you and say a few words without a mamasan swooping in to throw the “buy him a drink?” spanner at me. That said, Tawan does make a few concessions to modernity. The front-of-shop lighting is now more “dynamic”. There were about 15 guys in briefs except two in jockstraps. Most of the guys were in great form. It looked as if there was a competition they were preparing for, but the papasan said there wasn’t. When off the stage they might put a T-shirt on, but most of them stayed shirtless all the time. There weren’t many customers in the bar at about 10pm when I entered - perhaps ten (all Asian) – but because the bar is so small, barely 3 metres wide, it still looked active. At any given time, there were about 3 or 4 muscle guys on stage, which was no bigger than two dining tables placed end to end. The guys mostly just stood there and did nothing in particular. This was the part I thought the management should give more thought to. It’s not interesting enough for customers. But it’s always been like that, so I guess one could say why fix what is not broken? I was not bored, though. The papasan sat with me and we had a good conversation about the long shutdown brought on by Covid-19 and how everyone had to find other ways to survive. He shared a story about a Japanese customer (who had visited only the night before) who was stuck in Tokyo while his business in Thailand floundered. Discretion prevents me from repeating the details, but there must have been many small-time foreign investors in the same predicament. It made me think: As much as we might complain about being unable to visit our favourite destination(s) for two years, others with deeper financial stakes must have been tearing their hair out. On a different note, the papasan volunteered information about why they moved to the new shop, which is just across the street from the old one. Apparently, the landlord (of both the old Tawan bar and Sun Massage which were adjacent to each other) did not want to renew the lease for any of his tenants. The whole row, he said, now stood empty. Perhaps somebody is sniffing redevelopment potential, but frankly, with so much overbuilding in Bangkok, the property market already looks like a glut. At 10:30pm the show began. Once again, it was a throwback to the past. The first three items had cross-dressers doing lip sync numbers. Each was solo; there were no backing dancers because there simply wasn’t enough space on the stage. Then 3 guys came up to demonstrate some flexing. Two had outlines of hard-ons beneath their briefs. The third guy expertly positioned his dick to leave little to the imagination, with the glans peeping out over the waistband. There might have been one more act, but at this point, I wasn’t paying much attention to the show. I was more interested in making eye contact with one guy sitting quietly two metres from me. He seemed lost in his thoughts, and it proved unusually difficult to get his attention. I could have asked a papasan to tap him on his shoulder, but right when you needed one, no papasan could be found. Where were they? Through the corner of my eye, I noticed that the next act was the big cock show. About 6 or 7 guys came onto the stage briefly and then circulated among the audience offering a grope for tips. The trouble was that as soon as I tipped one (after a careful assay of his member with my hands), all the rest came to me like vultures to a carcass. I felt attacked. The fourth guy had my last 100-baht bill and I had to plainly tell the rest that there was no more money. Which was a good thing, because I had to get them away from me as soon as possible before the quiet guy left his seat. They were obstructing my line of sight with the object of my lust. I knew neither his name nor number, so it would not have been easy to tell a papasan who to summon for me should he disappear somewhere into the back of the shop. But he was still there after I shooed away the vultures, and finally, he noticed me beckoning him. “You not do show?” was how I opened my conversation with him. “Last time I do the jack-off show,” he replied. “But now, I don’t want to do anymore. I shy.” This is intriguing. I can understand the progression from shy to not-shy, but in the other direction? This is going to require a more extensive interview, and we made a pact to do it in my room. Drink (for customer or for boy): 400 baht. Off fee: 500 baht. Music volume: comfortable. The papasan also informed me that they had two short-time rooms upstairs. I forgot to ask about the charges but in any case, looking at how basic the bar is furnished, I’d have only the lowest of expectations for the rooms. In the daytime (not sure which hour to which hour) Tawan uses the rooms for massage services. “Some boys”, said the papasan, would be here to provide massages, but not all. He pointed to a guy near where I was seated as one of the usual masseurs. Bad move. That was the one guy who probably used the gym least. All of the sudden, I lost all interest in coming back tomorrow for a massage. That said, there might be others who would also be present in the day for massage, and who might be true hunks, but the papasan didn’t point them out to me.

It's always been generally accepted that two types of posts are the most popular and well read: trip reports and venue reports. If this discussion has proven anything it's that the topic of money--and how and why we spend it--is deserving of a place alongside them. In the five days since this thread first appeared, it has attracted over, 2,400 views and 88 replies. It has succeeded in touching a cord that has prompted numerous members to participate. To a man, they all have divergent views, something I don't believe comes as a shock to any of us. Unlike trip reports, which almost always win universal acclaim. discussions about money have almost the opposite effect. No two posters see it precisely the same way. Maybe that's because it's such a deeply personal matter. Some just want to get their rocks off and walk away from the engagement with a quickly fading but pleasant memory. Some prefer to see their time together as an opportunity get to know these young men with hopes of possibly seeing some of them again. This is all to be expected because we're all motivated by different needs and emotions and--like snowflakes--no two are alike. While it's been a motivating discussion, talking about sex and money is akin to talking about religion and politics. No one is going to persuade another to come around to their way of thinking. But it makes for a hell of a ride.

While they like to call it a "tip", functionally, it is not. If the bar or massage parlour paid the boys a meaningful salary or at least a biggish commission*, then any additional amount we give to the host, gogoboy or masseur would, functionally, be a tip in that it would be a token of appreciation. In that form, it would be a smaller and more discretionary amount, e.g. the 100 baht we give to a boy who sat with us for 15 - 20 minutes in a gogobar without an off. (*I am fully aware that if the bars and massage parlours were to pay a meaningful salary, they might have to jack up their list prices... or they might have to stop paying the cops.) However, in the context of a gogoboy or masseur providing sexual services which the bar or massage parlour (officially) denies responsibility for, then it becomes a fee, not a tip. Fees are either negotiated, or, in the absence of a negotiation, based on some sort of going rate. My personal opinion is that TotallyOz's scale of remuneration (to be precise, he said "acceptable price") is on the high side. In his post 9:38am of 24 July, he said Bangkok Short time - 3,000 baht Pattaya Short time - 2,000 baht plus taxi While he is free to apply his own (generous) rates, as anyone is. I think the going rates are roughly 60 - 75% of those figures. We hear the mamasans in gogo bars say 2,000 baht would be expected for short-time. I think in Pattaya a mamasan would say 1,500? (not too sure here, perhaps others can share their experience). In the Bangkok massage places, my recent experience is that the managers are suggesting 1,000 to 1,200 baht, on average, for playtime at the end of a one-hour massage. Nine Massage actually says 1,000 on its website. And I also agree with you that performance must play a (big) part in what we finally fork out. So, the way I see it. there is a "fee" component and a "tip" component. Say, we take a gogoboy out from a Bangkok bar. Nowadays, it seems the expected fee is 2,000 baht. But if the guy gave us a great time, we may add 200 or 300 baht on top. That would be the tip component. Ditto n a massage parlour. The expected rate may be 1,000 to 1,200, but if we're on Cloud Nine after the session, we naturally feel an extra 200 - 300 baht is well-deserved.

Tip! If going to Chatuchak market, take the MRT and get off at Kamphaeng Phet - you will exit the station literally into the market.

The undoubted unpleasantness of the job underlines any tip I offer. I often try to put myself in their shoes and wonder how they do it night after night. They put themselves in danger every time they leave the bar with a stranger and have to hope that the customer will treat them well back in the room. (I know from chatting to the guys that this is not always the case.) My regular guy in Pattaya, who I spend my holiday with every visit there, survived a very sad childhood marred by poverty and an abusive father. He didn't take up this work because he wanted to; as a straight guy, having sex with old farang was the last thing he wanted to do. His early experiences in Happy Boys were pretty horrific for him but he persevered and managed to get used to what he had to do to make a living. There are many new guys coming into the business and I'm always aware that for many it is a daunting prospect to agree to follow a complete stranger back to his hotel, not knowing what would happen or what demands would be put on them. That's why I'm rather free with my tips (but I don't throw money at them) and like most punters, treat them nicely.

Hah! Too true! One of the perks of being based in Asia for so many decades was that Bangkok was merely a short flight away - and often just a short stop-over to another city in the region for business meetings. Perhaps it's the old rosy-tinted spectacles thing allied to general ageing but I find the changes have not been for the better. No doubt, too, the economic development of the country equally has had quite a major effect.

Have read and reread this thread because it has been reported multiple times for offensive posts, let me say a few things. 1. I do not equate rates of escorts to anything other than what I believe they should be paid based on their professional job. 2. I do not believe that using a laborer wage is acceptable. 3. I did not see Z say that the rate should be that of a minimum wage and I have not found any threads that he berates others for paying higher or lower. 4. We are a gentleman's club and we all should act like that. If there are people you disagree with, state that move on. You will not always agree with what others pay or say. That is OK. To each his own. I'll keep advocating for higher money for escorts in Thailand as I do view this as something that elevates them to make their life better and for a very personal service they offer, that is the VERY least I can do. 5. I have said for years, that I pay or gift to boys is none of anyone's business but my own. I will say the same thing for the OP and for others who chimed in. Does not mean I will not continue to advocate for my own person opinion of what should be given, no it does not. This conversation was started because someone asked our opinion and we all gave it. 6. I have different rates for incall and in bar experiences. Years back, there was a lad in Sunnee that I loved to fuck. He was with other men long-term a lot but he loved sex and when playing pool he would often look at me and signal with his eyes, the parking places behind Come In Bar. I knew this meant that he wanted a quick fuck and I'd node yes or no. When yes, I would take a walk and in minutes he would follow and he would blow me and I'd fuck him right in between all the cars (with the hope that other cars didn't dive up). For that quick 10 minutes, I'd tip him 1,000 baht as opposed to the 1500 I'd pay for my home with a longer fuck. I did this at least 50 times and he was always good to me and vice versa. I also met a PR guy 25 years ago when I lived in NYC and he was giving head in the XXX Video booths for 20 bucks. He loved sucking dick and getting fucked. I told him he could come to my place anytime he wanted and I'd give him 100 bucks for same service. He appeared weekly and often 4 times a week for years. He would walk in, drop his clothes and get on his knees. If I had company, he loved it and would offer to do them for free (I had hot company back then). He is still a friend to this day. 7. I have traveled extensively and I understand the need to pay going rates and not above. I often have money that I give and say this is for short time and then another set that I tell them is for them to buy a gift for themselves and somethings a third for taxi. Having said this, I have not seen the rates in Thailand go up much in 20 years. To me, that is sad and thus why I continue to gift additional money. I do not believe Z's intention was to say don't pay more. I think he is trying to equate a mathematical equation to the service. I am not sure this is possible and thus, the math doesn't work for me. But, I am not a math person and when people start throwing calculations out there, I get confused. So, I have come up with a new acceptable price for Thailand. It is hereby decreed: Bangkok Short time - 3,000 baht Pattaya Short time - 2,000 baht plus taxi Bar Blow Jobs - 1,000 baht minimum Bar Hand Jobs - 999 baht Deep Kissing - 888 baht If no change, please tip upwards. Effective July 24, 2022 onward.

It wasn't until about 1925 that Edwin Hubble (Hubble Telescope) published his findings that other galaxies existed beyond our Milky Way Galaxy. Who would have believed there were billions of other galaxies!! And unlikely that anyone will ever travel to any of them much less travel to the nearest star.

Apologies in advance if this has already been covered for I have not read the full thread. But in the case of the provision of sexual services, in Thailand a tip is indeed just that - a tip! At least in terms of the law. The provision of sexual services for cash or other gain from an establishment like a gogo bar, host bar, spa or other such venue is illegal. If a bar was to pay a boy a living wage and then rent him out, that in the peculiar Thai way of logic is prostitution. Paying a bar fine is not because it denies the bar of the boy's time to dance or whatever. Negotiating a fee in advance between two people for sexual services is technically an agreed advance payment and is therefore prostitution. Tipping a boy or a girl at the end of a session is technically not payment for sexual services! But I can't imagine any of the boys in blue who get their monthly commissions are going to be too fussy about it LOL!

I think a discussion about MB rates must be a sharing of experiences. To give others (specially newbies) and idea on what to expect. We don't have to judge each other on what we pay a MB. Some of us might have a bit more to spent than others. Why would that not be oke? Good for the MB! But in general I myself find I very useful to have an idea of the "going rates". General difference between Pattaya and Bangkok. And between different bars (for example Moonlight and Jupiter vs DreamBoy). But in the end its all up to you and the MB on what rate you agree on. And also totally up to you to maybe add some extra tip for outstanding service and performance on top of the agreed rate...

So many additional reasons to visit Thailand: - check out New Twilight bar - It's too hot in Europe => go to Thailand for cooling down - Adam' Apple reopened

I wonder how often it has to be repeated that there is no such thing as a going rate. A tip is a tip is a tip. It is up to the customer to decide. There are no doubt parameters. Those who are perhaps better off financially than others may decide to offer a higher tip than those who are less well off. Also not everyone intends to off a boy every night of a visit for some visiting bars etc. live here. Irrespective of financial status, I always felt that performance played a part in whatever I tipped. And unllike many, I never once negotiated in advance. What @TotallyOz offers is his business, same as what @belkinDC offers is his.

But perfect for me!

Day 6.75: If you Think of Happiness, Think of Tawan The title is the tagline that has permeated my brain ever since I first heard it in 2014. It is also the prominent tagline in one of the last fliers I’ve seen from a Bangkok boy bar back in 2019: Having physical fliers nowadays seems pretty quaint in today’s all digital world. Kind of like those business cards that I’ve had printed whenever I go to work conferences or work travel. Nowadays it’s just “add me on LinkedIn,” and coupled with the phone app, I must admit, is a way more efficient way to send your contacts to another professional. The analog to boy bars and fliers is the social media presence. Moonlight is the king of this, doing regular Facebook lives to give us an almost daily reminder of its existence. Fliers are nice to hold in your hand but to also ultimately throw away with the rest of your airline boarding passes (another example of something going digital) after your trip. Social media notifications however, are eternally pushy, to the point that one gets numb to their existence. I can say that Tawan as a Boy Bar falls into this “pretty quaint” category in the grand scheme of boy bars in Bangkok. Yes, it has tried to modernize a bit, as evidenced with its growing social media presence, since everyone is doing it. And they were giving out Tawan-branded alcohol gel to sanitize your hands. But generally Tawan has stayed true to what it has always been. Still the same muscular guys who some have probably been there 10+ years (and calling it a BOY bar is a misnomer). Still the same tired gogo numbers. Still the same chuck wow act that admittedly has the wow factor for newcomers, but as a veteran myself, find the tips pushing a little grating. Indeed, Tawan was showing its age even when I first started visiting 8 years ago. Going to it nowadays is like getting into a time machine, harkening back to a Bangkok that was grittier, dirtier, and maybe more fun(?), instead of the Disney-fied tourist paradise it is now. But even if you are not attracted to Tawan’s brand of boys - the rugged older muscular daddy types with the occasional pumped up younger pups - you have to admire its stubbornness to keep true to its identity, despite the success of the more recent crop of flashier, more popular, and better-attended bars that cater to the lowest common denominator: to try to appeal to everyone by sacrificing individuality. It’s like what gentrification has done to the character of our urban spaces, or former gayborhoods paving the way to kids in strollers instead of gays in tutus, Tawan still clings to its identity – even if it is to a smaller audience. Count me in as a fan, even after all this years. --- It is now 11:20 PM, and I head back to Tawan to hang out there while Tiago delivers my luggage back to the house. I figure he’ll at least be gone 30 minutes, accounting for the round trip back to here, so it’ll give me time to get to know the men of Tawan. Upon entering, the last of the numbers was ending, and at this point, the boys were milling around the room, and the stage, trying to get a sale. I head over to my old seat, and order a new drink. Rum coke as usual – and boy was it really strong. They know how to dose their drinks! I survey the landscape and I see probably about 10 boys still around, with about 5 I can see having fun with. At this point I wasn’t necessarily looking for a bottom, just someone who I can do a “muscle worship” session, like with some nice foreplay, and maybe someone to top me. I’m not sure Tiago will be up for anyone here, because I know what he likes, and he is not a mega slut like I am (even accounting for his Brazilian-ness). There are a million other bottoms out there in the boy bar landscape. I’m here for the muscle. Pretty soon, one of the muscular hunks sits beside me (let’s call him 1). I am guessing he is early 30s. Very very muscular, as in like one of the guys in the photo above. He had a nice face, classic asian features. He extends a hand to shake mine. He asks for my name, and then asks where I am from (I get “but you are Asian” reaction, maybe it’s just easier to say I am from some generic Asian place), and the other stock questions. He didn’t ask for a drink or anything, but he did take my hand to guide it to his groin. He was direct, which bodes well for me. I take liberty to squeeze the muscles, and he gives me a light massage on my neck and shoulders. Another equally muscular man heads over to me (let’s call him 2), and then sits on my other free side, opposite the guy who is massaging me. He is handsome, muscular cut, probably 4% body fat, and very strong thighs and nice abs. He tells me he has seen me before (no doubt), and asks me if I was well and all that. The massaging guy interjects something in Thai to the guy, and it seems there was a little argument going. They settle down and now the other guy is massaging me. I’m getting the treatment from both guys. They are angling for tips, which is fine, that’s why I’m here. Now 2 becomes even more direct. He puts his hand in my shorts, and expertly massages my groin until I am at attention. Again, very direct and showing really good signs here. I am glad I am semi-secluded by the stage from other customers, otherwise I’d be a little bit modest. 2 then puts his hand in my shorts and massges my cock. Wow, is this normal here? 2 then lifts up my shirt to suck on one of my nipples. Darn, this is really direct and, sudden. LOL. Not that I am not enjoying. I am also glad that I’ve had two of the strong rum cokes to make me a little bit less inhibited. So before things got out of hand, I ask 2 how much for short time. He stops the sucking of the nipples and the hand job to think about it, and quotes 3000, but with a sour face. That was odd. And I am not beyond paying 3000 if the sex was good, but at the time, found the price a little bit steep. 1 was just staring into space, probably incensed that he was customer-blocked by 2. The captain goes to me and asks me if I wanted to off both guys. I hesitated, not sure about all this. The captain then says that they have a room upstairs if I wanted to do the deed here. That was interesting, though I don’t think the two I have are into that idea. I get a text from Tiago, saying he is ready to come back. Oh that’s right Tiago is with me still lol. I get a Grabtaxi for him and send him a screenshot of the Grabtaxi detail so he knows which taxi to take. I seriously haven’t thought about the logistics of me doing a short time session without Tiago, but now I will need to think about with these two musclemen beside me. Though I was eager to open my luggage at home and check if my stuff was still in there, since Bangkok Airways opened it. When the captain leaves, 2 asks me when I will leave Thailand. I tell him three days from now. I then ask him if he does home visits. 2 says yes, and asks me when and where I wanted it to do it with him. I think about it and say before dinner tomorrow, around 5 pm. That’ll give Tiago and I time to do our errands in the day, and then sex with 2, and then dinner. 2 then wakes 1 up from his reverie, and then utters a few sentences in Thai, and 1 seems to agree with 1. 2 then talks in English to me, saying that 1 can also come, and it will be 2000 each. A threesome with Tawan hunks? That was new. I immediately say yes, and upon exchanging Line, I set a date for them. After more strokes from 2 (I am close to cumming) and some massages from 1, I get a text from Tiago. He said he just got dropped off Soi Than Tawan and is heading back to Tawan. Since I had a date with the two Tawan guys tomorrow, no need to have them suffer further. I take out 500 baht for each guy, and they seem pleased with the tips, and confirmed the time with me again tomorrow. Pretty soon I see Tiago emerge from the door of Tawan. 1 and 2 say their goodbyes. I'm still seated, because I still had a hard on, and waited for it to die down, though the sight of Tiago heading back to sit with me certainly didn’t help. I told Tiago what transpired, and broke the news of the 5 pm rendezvous with the Tawan guys tomorrow. He seemed unfazed by this. He told me he opened the luggage and all seemed to be in order. I was relieved. When I have calmed down, we decide to head over to Patpong again to check out what’s up there. Upon arriving at Hot Male, the tout there welcomes us again, and we talk for a bit about the crowd he’s seen so far. He says it has been picking up, but they have a ways to go from pre-COVID days. He then asks us if we wanted to go in the club. I told him maybe not. He insisted, saying that since there is not a show anymore at 12 midnight, he is going to charge us only 250 baht each, and we can check out the boys. That was a good deal. So that’s what we do, another late night Hot Male visit. There was still about 5 sets of customers in the vicinity, with boys sitting with them. There was about 5 boys onstage, and they were pretty nice looking. Tiago puts his head on my shoulder, probably signaling he is ready for some cuddles. No boy was really screaming at me to be offed, though there was one delicious one that I entertained the idea of offing for a minute but ultimately I didn't invite him to sit with us. One by one, the customers leave. And before we knew it, it was 1 AM, and it was time to leave. We see the boys putting on clothes, and the staff slowly clean up the bar. We pay 250 each as promised. As we leave Hot Male, I take a few snaps of the surrounding bars. Some closed, some abandoned. I was still looking for some kind of entertainment at this hour, but were was Screw Boy when you need it? I ask Tiago if he wanted to go to a club, maybe to see if G.O.D. is open, I wasn’t sure. Tiago said no. He just wanted a Netflix and chill after all the luggage saga today. So that’s what we do. For there was two muscular men to contend with tomorrow, next post…

New Twilight has in recent weeks been promoting themselves on Facebook. Here are some photos from their Facebook page.

If I understand what I've read, one theory is that everything - all the matter in the universe, and all the energy - existed in a single point called the singularity. ⚫ When it exploded, everything contained in it started flying away in all directions. That's what we're seeing flying away from us today. It's mind-boggling that everything we can see once existed in a single infinitesimal point, but smarter folks than I am believe that to be the case. I've also read that someday things will start contracting again and everything - all matter and all energy - will collapse once more into another singularity, a single point containing everything. And then I guess the whole thing could start all over again. But I think there's another theory that says things will just keep flying away, expanding into space and never stopping until someday entropy will be complete and there won't be any identifiable matter or any measurable energy. They call that 'heat death'. I'm sure not the guy to explain what happened or what's going to happen but I recently saw a PBS special about the Webb telescope in which someone remarked how amazing it was that folks on this tiny planet of ours, orbiting an unremarkable star in an unremarkable solar system in an unremarkable galaxy, should have figured out how to look all the way to the edge of the universe. I do think it's a privilege even to have these kinds of discussions. In fact, if I had to choose between searching for the answer and actually having the answer, I think I'd pick the former. But I couldn't swear I wouldn't page ahead to see how it all ends.

Just as I was about to reach the slab block that housed Sabaidee Massage in its carpark floor, I noticed to my right a number of fire-damaged houses. It had been reported by @reader in https: // www.gayguides.com/forums/topic/37924-many-houses-destroyed-in-bangkok-blaze/#comment-335550, and there's even a photo of the blaze there from the Bangkok Post. I had read about it then, but didn't realise how close it was to Sabaidee's block. At its closest point, it would have been merely 4 or 5 metres from its back door. It's been a month since the fire and the houses have not been demolished. In my picture, the peachy orange wall on the left would be the boundary wall of the slab block. I tried to engage the Sabaidee manager on the disruption (if any) the business suffered as a result, but all he kept saying was "no problem, no problem." Perhaps he didn't realise I was asking about the past, and thought he needed to assure me that business is back to normal. He had sent me a ton of pictures via Line, but the photos of his masseurs had neither name nor number, and I didn't know how to specify which ones I was interested in should I wish to message back. So, without any prior booking, I showed up. He explained that I should have Lined back the pics of my shortlist and he would then tell me more about them. I hadn't thought of that, but surely, it can't be much more work to attach a name or number to each picture in the first place. It would have saved me (and probably other customers) a lot of puzzlement. Anyway, he then showed me five guys on his tablet which he said were "available". Four clearly worked out in gyms, one of whom was a definite W4M. Not quite competition standard but close. The fifth was an S3R- not much muscle - but he had the sweetest face. I told the manager W4M was my first choice and S3R was my second. He got onto the phone and managed to reach W4M immediately, only to be told that W4M was on his way to another appointment - one which the Sabaidee manager didn't know of. This suggests a considerable degree of fluidity in staff management. The boys are in fact freelancers who may work for other massage shops or have their own advertising. So S3R it would be. He was in the back of the shop and appeared within seconds. Let's call him Sucho. He led me up one floor to the next level which had about 8 or 9 massage rooms. I don't know about the other rooms, but the one assigned to me had an ensuite shower. It wasn't a fancy room, but not cramped either. There was enough space to move around the massage table. Sucho showered with me right at the start - that made a good impression already. His massage technique was average. There was a good deal of vigourous rubbing. Although he clearly knew several other strokes, he wasn't putting them to good use, or at the right spots. The exerted pressure was good and strong. As for coverage, it was originally not extensive enough, focussing mainly on the back of legs, back and shoulders. When I asked him to not forget the chest, arms and front of legs, he happily obliged. He knew what to do, but I guess bad habits of omission in a gay-sex kind of place quickly degrades a boy's standard programme. Although he was nude from the beginning, what was noticeable was that for a gay-sex kind of place, there was virtually no brushing during the massage. He wasn't skilled at the arts of seduction in that regard. That didn't deter me and we soon proceeded to Part 2. Nothing much to write home about but I left satisfied. He showered with me in closing. For a 90-miniute oil massage, the manager had earlier indicated a tip of 1,500 as expected. The house itself asked for 1,000 baht for "the room". Looking at the clock on my phone, I noticed that I had spent about 1 hour 35 minutes inside. One last point. When I asked Sucho which day of the week was his day off, he replied that he only worked at Sabaidee Spa 3 days a week. Apparently, the place has a kind of roster. I tried to ask Sucho where else he worked, but I couldn't quite understand the reply. He did volunteer that even on those days where he was "with" Sabaidee, he only got on average one customer a day. If this is the business model, I wondered if that meant that most of the numerous photos that Sabadiee Spa sent out might not represent actual availability on any particular day.

I went twice to Fresh Boys on Patpong Soi 2 within the same week, but what a difference the hour makes. The first visit, I arrived at about 10pm and stayed for the show. The bar was more than half full. The second visit, I arrived after the show (I can't remember what time exactly) and there were only three other customers there. At 10pm, I counted 18 customers, filling up the two rows of benches facing the stage and as a result, I was shown to a side bench. From that vantage point, I could see that five customers had six boys sitting with them. The total number of customers increased to 25 - 28 by showtime at 10:30pm. However, the bar saw well more than that number of customers because throughout the evening, there was quite a lot of coming and going. The mamasan helpfully moved me to a better seat when a customer left. There were 25 - 30 boys, rotating 10 to 12 at a time on stage, all shirtless and in white shorts. Sitting with customers were 5 - 6 boys. Most were S2 and S3R with the occasional S3M or Q2. In short, "medium twinks". It's a small space, and customers are close to the stage. When off the stage, the boys often sit in a section that faces the customers and eye contact is easily made. That compensates somewhat for the bad choice the bar made in choosing yellow and white for some number tags. The contrast between the two colours is so low, it is virtually impossible to make out the boy's number from anything more than a metre and a half away. This annoyed me because the one guy I thought best-looking had a yellow tag and try as I might, I just couldn't make out his number. Fortunately, he walked by a few times and smiled and we connected. The show could well be the "best" in Bangkok in my estimation, for the simple reason that it had no lip-sync katoey items. These numbers put me off, not least because they also tend to turn up the volume for the song. Undoubtedly the acts were amateurish, but I wasn't here for slick and polish. There were only six items, all performed by the rotation crew. Five out of the six items had engorged appendages on display. The second last act had three guys with stiff members whacking a metal pole, after which they circulated among the audience for gropes and tips. This was followed by the finale that had two guys in coital positions. I didn't off anyone that night. My WhatsApp kept distracting me with messages from home, and with a small crisis brewing, I felt that a longish voice conversation was being expected from me in the following hour. A couple of nights later, I was back at Fresh Boys, timing it for after the show since I was intending to take a boy out. I had no clear idea which boy that would be but since I had the impression from my first visit that quite a number of boys from Fresh were within my acceptability criteria, it was probably the place with the best chance of a good fit. Wow, there were only three other customers post-show. More importantly, there were only about 12 - 15 boys. Assuming that the bar had started the evening with the usual complement of 25 - 30 boys, that meant that about half the boys had been taken, a pretty good "off" rate. I shouldn't have been surprised. The other night, amongst the coming and going, I saw three customers leave with new-found companions within the 30 minutes before the show began, Yellow tag was among the less fortunate ones that night. He had not been taken and was still there. I called him down from the stage and resumed our conversation from where we had left off the previous night. Unlike the last time when, because I didn't want to raise his hopes of an off from me, we talked only about his family and his home town, this time we went quite quickly into the specifics of what he would do and what he'd rather not do in bed. He leaned over and sort of whispered into my ear. "I can bottom," he said. I hadn't expected that, as he looked straight to me. Nonetheless, I did not let my surprise delay me. My reply was ready. "And I can top." A few minutes later, the bill was called. At Fresh Boys, each drink was 350 baht. The off fee was 500 baht.

From Forbes GranMonte Winery is located on the edge of Khao Yai National Park, celebrated for its biodiversity. (Livia Henge) lMy interest in heroic viticulture has taken me across northern and southern Italy, but I didn’t expect it to catch up with me on a recent trip to Thailand. As I was researching weekend trips from Bangkok, I stumbled upon the GranMonte Estate, a family owned winery located just 2.5 hours northeast of Bangkok. And, intrigued by the prospect of grapes grown in a tropical climate, I made the trip to learn about Thai wine and explore this emerging winemaking region. Located at the foothills of Khao Yai, a national park renowned for its biodiversity, GranMonte (whose name means “Big Mountain”) is set across 40 acres of land in Thailand’s Asoke Valley. Though the property’s Italian-inspired VinCotto restaurant and wine cottage may be reminiscent of the Tuscan countryside, the occasional sighting of elephants in the vineyard will remind you that you’re not in Europe anymore. You’re in the tropics. “Our region isn’t only beaches and coconut trees,” says Nikki Lohitnavy, the first and only certified winemaker in Thailand, and lead enologist of GranMonte. Together with her family, she has helped spearhead production in a new terroir. “The Khao Yai National Park is mountainous, reaching 4,000ft at its peak, making it the driest part of the country. In the winter, a cold front arrives from China, creating a continental microclimate in this area, with night temperatures that can drop to 50°F.” GranMonte was born out of Visooth Lohitnavy’s vision passion for wine, and it remains a family affair. Visooth is the CEO & Managing Director, his wife Sakuna is President, Nikki is the General Manager and Director of Oenology, and sister Mimi is the Director of PR and Marketing. Nikki always had a penchant for gardening and helped her family plant their first grapes on the property back in 1999. She went on to study enology at the University of Adelaide in Australia and has been a visiting winemaker in France, South Africa, Brazil, Portugal, Mexico, and Venezuela, giving her a strong background in diverse styles, climates and production methods. She is considered one of the world’s foremost experts on tropical viticulture and was listed as one of Forbes’ 30 Under 30 Asia in 2016 for paving the way for a new industry in Thailand. Her guiding philosophy at GranMonte? “I want to be true to the origin of the wine,” she says. “New world wines, old world wines, the labels are irrelevant — I go across the spectrum based on what’s best for each grape. Our crémant is more traditional and rustic, while our whites tend to have tropical fruit characteristics, like lychee and coconut,” she explains. “Visitors at GranMonte are often surprised that our wines aren’t jammy or high in alcohol, but resemble cooler climate wines that are fresh with a nice acidity.” GranMonte produces 100,000 bottles across 23 labels and grows dozens of grape varietals. Chenin Blanc and Syrah are considered best grapes for tropical climates thanks to their adaptability, but the winery also grows from Cabernet Sauvignon, Grenache and Tempranillo, to Viognier, Verdelho and Albariño, among others. Innovation and experimentation are guiding principles at GranMonte, which is a production-led, rather than a market-led, business given its recent emergence in Thailand. It produces sparkling wines in the classic method and is starting to make orange wines made in Georgian qvevris. It also collaborates with luxury hotels like the Mandarin Oriental in Bangkok and Six Senses Yao Noi to produce white-label wines for guests to enjoy an unexpected taste of Thailand during their stay. GranMonte’s wines have won more than 100 awards, including several gold medals at AWC Vienna for its Bussaba Natural Sweet Wine and Orient Reserve Syrah over the years. While most of its wine is consumed locally, 20% is exported elsewhere in Asia with growing markets in Singapore and Taiwan. Grapes are grown at 1000-2000ft above sea level and are pruned twice a year. GranMonte uses a precision farming system called “Smart Vineyard” to monitor the microclimate and ensure quality control and higher grape yields in the unconventional region. Unlike grapes in traditional winegrowing areas, Thailand’s grapes ripen in winter, in preparation for the harvest that runs from February to March each year. “There’s no dormancy in the vines,” explains Nikki, “So we can plan when we want to harvest.” The harvest generally takes place at night when temperatures are cooler, which is good news for the grapes — and the grape pickers. Visitors can join vineyard and winery tours of the property, followed by guided wine tastings, or stay overnight at GranMonte’s wine cottage which has 7 suites nestled in the vineyard. The Italian-inspired VinCotto restaurant is open daily for lunch and dinner. https://www.forbes.com/sites/liviahengel/2022/07/25/why-you-should-visit-a-tropical-vineyard-in-thailand/?sh=69deb3958500

I hope he returns to the board as I enjoyed reading his posts.

I actually got my troll-training over at Hooboy's, many, many years ago. In researching male escort forums (I once thought of competing with Hooboy), I spent many hours studying the disease of trolldom. Their poorly written TOS actually encouraged trolling. Either Hooboy, or someone else who had his ear, actually thought it was a good idea to encourage escorts to join with multiple usernames. That way, if an escort wanted to say something controversial (or cause trouble), it wouldn't affect his business. IMO, it was a seriously stupid and misguided theory, and my professional criticisms seemed to fall on deaf ears (at least in the beginning). There was an old-fashioned mindset over at Hooboy's where certain people believed you had to coddle the evil 70's queens. Thank goodness many of those folk have died, and behaviors have changed. Very few places on the internet can afford to do what the NY Times does: subscriber's comments get monitored first before they are published. I contribute on their board, and IMO, it's one of the best, most civil boards on the internet, in total tolerance of harsh, brutal criticism. And I love their "editor likes" feature, a major selling point for users. Other boards can afford to pay their moderators. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of time and talent to "manage" personalities. People love to say that we're all adults and should know how to behave, but let's get real. A sick, unhappy queen doesn't behave like anything normal. Many boards rely on self-moderation, and they find a way to make that work. It's not easy to find reliable people to do a free job. I would pity the pour volunteer who attempts to control me. LOL.

Good grief. If I were Oz, I'd have no hair left.

Given what's happened over the past 2 years, I'd do anyone! Am I desperate? You bet I am. Great news about Adams Apple re-opening.

On second thoughts, this is not a good example of a tip either. It is kinda mandatory, after all, so it's more of a fee for time spent. A better example might be the 100 baht we give to a selected mamasan after he/ she gave us a good recommendation or extra information about a desired boy or helped translate...

Just in case my comments above are misinterpreted, when I say an extra 200-300 baht would be appropriate as the discretionary tip component for really good service, that is exactly what I mean. This tip component is not normalized. That is to say, in more than 50% of engagements, I do not add this tip. They get exactly what was agreed or what is the going rate. Only about one in three boys/masseurs get extra. That way the extra really represents an above average performance. Boys, in my experience, have been happy with my compensation either way. When they get extra, they show their delight.

No, I don't. There's just not enough interest in Mexico ... on this forum.

You mean you would do just about anyone as long as they are next door?

Yes and like unto exploding shoes rules were made many years ago which are still in place. Last time in China (30 months back) the security check wanted me to show them the battery pack. On flight last month from SFO to Washington DC I was reminded that if I had a battery pack (which I do) that it needed to be in my carry-on. What's amusing is the April air tags are battery powered and they are packed in my in the hold luggage. Oh well...

thanks for keeping us posted on your adventure. I especially like the real-time, live, daily feeds as you move from airport to hotel, sauna to sauna and city to city. Obrigada

And with the crew shortages and other issues it makes sense to have them in the air instead of sitting in a desert somewhere. I'm also a big fan. It also seems so quiet inside and you really feel like you're floating.

I never do, and this saga is totally my fault. Tiago and I were consolidating all our things into my one luggage because he left his at the Muay Thai gym, so I inadvertently put my power bank in with the rest. Normally I'd have it in my carry-on, which is the whole point of it, to be accessible to me whenever I travel. Yes, they would have allowed it on the carry-on. That's what the Bangkok Airways agent confirmed as well. And I only (usually) have it in my carry-on for easy access. Never had a problem with that in the past. I think it is allowed so at least you can "watch" over it if there is a problem. You know its one of those things that you forget happened because it happens to me so many times, and I take it for granted. I get on a plane at least once a week, so all this becomes so routine. I don't remember if the agent checking us in asked me that. I knew I was also distracted a little bit during that time because there were some super hot surfer dudes in the next counter trying to check-in their surfboard. This is the Bangkok Airways policy for carry-ons and power banks, so yes I could have 10 of my 20,000 mAh in my carry-on if I wanted. Nope, it was totally my fault. The Power Bank should have been in my carry-on, and they could not have it fly back in the next flight unless some flight attendant or pilot had it in their carry-on, and that's not their job. The agent did say that we can retrieve it in the original airport by just showing the receipt we were given. And that's exactly what Tiago did, and even with his limited english, was able to retrieve my power bank. Screenshot of a video he sent after he landed: OMG YES you reminded of that. I guess Tiago fits the stereotype.

Hi few questions. Hope someone might be able to help ... 1) can we off the model from Jupiter? For overnight 2) if can ..how do I go about doing that ? Do I speak with the mamasan? 3) what is the regular rate for that ? Thanks in advance

You never heard of them?

I don't agree with the suggested going rates @TotallyOz but I do agree that trying to build mathematical formula to how much paying boys is useless, ln reality it's a negotiating between you and the boy and the deal is closed when both sides agreed to the fee,also there are subjective factors as @TotallyOz advised like you are ready to pay more or give gifts if you really liked the boy and there is nothing wrong about it, it's really none of anyone's business if a client want to do it , I personally declined immediately if a boy quoting very high rate even if I want him badly but if I have a good experience with a boy I don't mind to tip him generously or buying him a gift, it's really depends on certain situation and the chemistry between us this is why I believe there is no point trying to create a formula how much we should pay.

And the klongs are supposed to be cleaned regularly specifically to avoid this. I suppose as long as people in Bangkok continue throwing all manner of rubbish into the klongs, nothing will change.

Brazil would be 25% less than in those times now..... I'm going to Bogota next month, I haven't been there in ages. CUN-BOG 195usd r/t, industry rates at Hiltons and a stop on the way back in Panama, Waldorf Astoria 😵 Like Namazu said, airfare depends on where you are originating and carries a bulk of the expense generally.....but travel is fun (or at least it used to be). I don't keep charts, I barely remember where I've been (I'm not Asian, btw)......but my "go to" places are: #1 all around- Brazil= Amazing sex, fun guys, a little danger Avg cost for a guy=$36usd, plus entry fee and drinks if you go to a sauna...online is the same price. #2 Mexico= I live here, brown skin, lot's of fun, generally everyone turns somewhat gay when drinking- depending on what types of guys and what city will vary from free-$75usd...My average, when paying is $25usd. Mexico is a good sized country and lots of different cities to choose from ...Cancun being my least favorite because of the gringo tourism and tourist scams that go along with that. #3Thailand= There is enough info here to know what it's all about Indonesia= Bali, lot's of semi-openly gays- Because of religion, most guys are circumcized - much like Morocco or Egypt or Turkey...different being with an Asian or latin looking guy that is cut....I've been to Jakarta and Bali, is like NYC vs Miami or Mexico City vs Cancun or Bkk vs Pattaya....Jakarta is a big city not much to see but LOTS of people Bali is used to tourism, lots of Aussies go there and the hook ups are on apps or massage shops....average price was $25-30usd Cuba= Use to be lots of hot guys that were into pleasing....not so much anymore, but are diamonds in the rough sometimes- All street cruising and pick up points $20usd is the standard, I've seen some go as low as $5 and some asking $50....things are not good there right now, nothing on the shelves- I was going to go there instead of Colombia/Panama but changed my mind based on the ground reports. I've been all through Central America and no organized or set places/prices to really go by....just like spinning a wheel on the Grindr roulette. Dominican Republic= Haven't been there in ages, but in the Latin America forum there is info- Fares are too crazy from Mexico to there, but if I was on the east coast with cheap fares, I'd go back easily..... Colombia= I've been to several places, but not for awhile....good info in Latin America forum and going rates seem to be $25-40 usd Panama= some BEAUTIFUL guys....gay clubs seem to be underground still , but I've had AMAZING sex there, just finding it is not as easy as the other places listed here...prices seem to be about $50-$75 Those are the places I go to , for this type of stuff. I've been to many other places in the world...but those are the ones I return to....no wonder I don't write trip reports, thoughts run through my head like squirrels.

This reminds me of a post I did describing a way to compare different countries' cost to hire a boy relative to where I live, which is California. The information presented is old, since pricing is dynamic, for boys, airfare, cost of living etc, and the world has changed dramatically since 2018, but maybe I should update this for 2022 prices: It is a metric I came up with called the Monger Index, or a way to compare the cost of hiring in different countries versus the boys you get back home. It’s a metric me and a buddy of mine came up with while super drunk at the Crowne Plaza Bangkok at 3 AM in the morning years ago. He asked me why I get all these prostitutes overseas. With the airfare and hotel rooms, that cost adds up. Wouldn’t it be just cheaper to hire prostitutes back home? I told him he was crazy because (a) the prostitutes are expensive back home and (b) sex is more fun when on vacation anyway. But I disputed his thesis that it is cheaper to hire prostitutes back home. So I came up with an index that measures how much cheaper it is to get hot guys overseas than in the USA, accounting got airfare and lodging costs. This is the Monger index. I apologize for the math. I am Asian after all. Some assumptions: (1) Time Range: The index would not work in measuring one-offs. Of course ONE prostitute would be cheaper in the USA than ONE prostitute in Bangkok. A $250 an hour prostitute you hire for one hour to take home to your USA house is cheaper than a $50 gogo boy you get in a nice gogo bar if you add the $600 roundtrip airfare one needs to get to the sauna, plus the hotel cost. It will only work if you hire by bulk, and have a longer time range. My assumption for this index example is one week, or 7 days. For example, if you get one guy every day in a week in the USA, that adds up to 7*$250 = $1750. Now we are talking bigger dollars. Have sex in bulk when overseas helps you recoup your cost. (2) Airfare: The index should include the airfare. For my purposes here, I use airfare coming from California, because that's where I live. So for example, a typical off-season RT air ticket to Sao Paulo, Brazil is $1000. For Bangkok, it’s $550. This is a fixed cost in the index. (3) Hotel: Of course you have to assume you are getting a hotel in the city you are mongering in. I assume my hotels will be typical AirBNB’s, with basic amenities in a decent and nearby neighborhood. Translation: not a dump but not fancy, and Uberable or walkable to the sauna and tourist-friendly services. For Sao Paulo I assume of the cost, the AirBNB me and the BF got in Bela Vista last December. It was a decent $50 a night. For 7 nights that adds up to $350. For Bangkok, a typical decent Silom Soi 3 AirBNB costs $45 a night. (4) Overnights: I put in the calculation the cost it takes for hiring a guy overnight. For California, a typical overnight with a hot but not “superstar porn star” hot is $1000. For Sao Paulo, Jonas’ example was 200 reals, but I count his initial 200 reals in the sauna as part of the overnight, so 200+200 = 400 reals, or $104. For Bangkok, its a bit tricky, but I assumed a high-end 3000 baht overnight, or $91. I pay that because of all the sexual acrobatics I require all my boys. It is only fair. So here are the gross calcs. For 7 days, if I hired a boy for one hour and another boy for overnight every day: California Prostitute: Price for one hour times 7 + Price for an overnight times 7 = $250*7 + $1000*7 = $8750 Bangkok GoGo Boy: Airfare + 7 nights in AirBNB + Price for a garoto in the sauna times 7 + Price for a garoto overnight times 7 = $550 + $315 + $52*7 + $91*7 = $1866 Sao Paulo Garoto (Jonas): Airfare + 7 nights in AirBNB + Price for a garoto in the sauna times 7 + Price for a garoto overnight times 7 = $1000 + $350 + $52*7 + $104*7 = $2442 The index is calculated as the ratio of the 7-day cost of USA boys, divided by the total cost in that country. 7-day Monger Index for Sao Paulo = $8750/$2442 = 3.58 7-day Monger Index for Bangkok = $8750/$1866 = 4.70 Issues: (1) I do not count the Uber cost to get to the sauna or gogo bar, or the entrance fee for the sauna, or the cabina price, or the off fee, or the drink costs in a bar. (2) I do not account for food costs. Of course you have to eat whether in the USA or Brazil or Thailand. This may be a future improvement to be added. (3) The airfare is just from California, maybe it’s more or less where you are. Maybe my assumption of $550 for Bangkok is too much or too little. This is just what I see anecdotally. So, with that, here are my Monger Indices for some 6 cities I’ve been to, ranked by the best to worst: 1. Pattaya, Thailand: 5.54 2. Bangkok, Thailand: 4.70 3. Mexico City, Mexico: 4.53 4. Bogota, Colombia: 3.77 5. Sao Paulo, Brazil: 3.58 6. Rio de Janeiro, Brazil: 3.44 These are solely based on my experience. Your Monger Index may be different. Some observations: (1) Thailand remains the most bang for your buck, because of the presence of cheap decent places to stay in and low cost to fly there from California. (2) Mexico is helped by the fact that it’s so close to California, therefore the airfare is cheap. (3) Brazil on the other hand, is dinged by how expensive the airfares are from California. (4) If I factor in food, Thailand may even get a higher index, and Brazil may get a lower index. (5) Grindr prices were only used in Bogota and Mexico, because I do not have experiences getting anyone there outside of Grindr. So your mileage may vary. (6) Quality of boys is impossible to measure. And it is subjective, so it can’t be put in the index. The index is solely a quantitative metric. For example, twinks may be better in Thailand. Adonises may be better in Brazil. Again, quality is subjective, and can’t be measured meaningfully. Of course, in the end, your mileage may vary, and these indices are only meaningful to me. If you don’t like having sex with Asians, your Monger Index for Thailand is -1000000, for example. link:

Day 6.5: There is such a thing as too much technology, or A Numazu’s Guide on How to Not Experience Tawan There are a few things I carry with me on travel that I can’t live without. Apple Airtags (GPS trackers) are essential, and I have one on every piece of luggage, backpack, wallet, passport folio, and even in my car when I park it at the airport parking lot, so I can use my iphone to track all my belongings on any given time. Saved my bacon a few times when I left my wallet at home for example, and my iphone pings me saying it is not with me, or whenever the airline loses my luggage, at least I know where it was left, and can track its journey back to me. Having a power bank is also essential, for times when my cellphone dies and I need a quick jump, or if there are not enough outlets in a hotel room, and with my ever growing number of technology pieces that travel with me – cellphone, tablet, work laptop, wireless headphones, smart watch etc etc etc, having my power mobile is also essential. But sometimes having technology could screw you over. At Suvarnabhumi Airport, as we disembark from our plane and head over to domestic baggage claim, Tiago and I were just chattering away, trying to figure out the remaining things we wanted to in the 3 days remaining I had left in Thailand. We get to baggage claim 2 and see a Bangkok Airways agent waiting in front of it, with a piece of paper with two last names on it. My stomach turned. One of the last names was mine. “I’m Numazu,” I tell the agent. The agent apologizes, and proceeds to say that my luggage was randomly inspected back at our original destination, and they found my power bank inside. The agent then said that they could not put the bag in the plane without taking out the power bank, and needed my permission to take it out of the bag, so the rest of the bag can fly to BKK, so they just waited till the plane landed to tell me. I asked him if it was at all possible to have informed me while I was waiting to board the plane. I remember waiting 45 minutes to embark, so it would have been more efficient if they could’ve informed me then. The agent said he didn’t know if they did a notification of not. We were lead to the Bangkok Airways baggage office which was just next to baggage claim. While the agent left us to get some forms, I looked at my phone to use the GPS to track my bag. Yup, sure enough, it was still there at the previous airport. I was at least relieved that I knew where it was and I could track it. There is no worse feeling than having lost luggage. The agent went back with a form. I began writing my information on the form. “For telephone number, I have a US number, do you need a Thai number?” I ask. The agent confirms, so I look at the phone for contacts and put down Tiago’s Thai number. Thank goodness for having that. I put in the address of our AirBNB. As I give the form back to the Agent, the agent asks what I wanted to do about the power bank and my bag. Since I need my clothes and stuff I ask him if the bag can get on the next flight to BKK. He informs me that I can get the bag today, because there is another flight arriving in 2 and a half hours from our origin, so it can make the journey to BKK then, but they need to take out the power bank. I tell him to leave the damn power bank there and put the bag on the next plane. The agent then asks me if I will wait for the bag at the airport or have it delivered to the house. I turn to Tiago and asks him what to do. Tiago says since I can track the bag that just having the bag delivered will enable us to at least spend the time at the house instead of the airport, since it was going to be a 3 hour wait. I tell the agent that delivery is our option. The agent informs me that the delivery fee was 500 baht. Since it was my fault, I gladly pay the fee. The agent takes the money, gives me a receipt and a copy of the paperwork, and tells us that the bag will most likely be delivered at midnight. I thought this will work great, as we can have dinner, see a boy show at 10:30 PM, and then go home after that to receive the bag. So we make our way to the taxi stand. At the ride home Tiago takes my hand, as he perceives that I am worried about the bag. Every once in a while I check my phone to see if my bag is still where it was, or if it is magically finding its way to the house. It was still where it was. Tiago started yawning and says he is hungry. Tiago suggests we get something delivered at home instead of going out to dinner, and if we can get it now while in the taxi, so we don't need to wait for it at home that long. So I look for some options on Grab and settle for McDonalds, which was a treat that Tiago and I partake of once in a while. Tiago is looking at my phone as I scroll through the burger options. He finds it interesting that there is fried chicken offered at McDonalds here, so he asks for some of that and a Cheeseburger without pickles. Our order is 541 baht ($15): We get home, and 10 minutes later I get a call from the delivery guy saying he is at the house gate with the order. That was fast. And all the items in our order arrived in good condition, which is great. Tiago and I chow down (we have been pretty hungry). I was still worried about my luggage and I keep checking my phone to see where it is (it hasn’t moved), and Tiago always assures me that it will arrive today. It was only 7:30 PM so Tiago recommended that we take a nap so I can relax a bit and forget about the bag. Tiago always knows how to calm me. With AC in full blast we take that needed nap. At 9:30 the alarm goes off and I immediately look at my phone. Success! The bag is now in Suvarnabhumi! The smile on my face told Tiago the news. He takes my phone to see for himself. He then makes us both coffees and then we shower to get to our bar for the night, Tawan. Old map, still interesting: We take a Grab taxi and it had Tawan as one of the locations. Familiar tout at the door. I was curious to see Tawan in its new digs. I’ve heard that it was a smaller space than previous location. Upon entering I see a single row of seats to the right, and the stage to the left. It was indeed small. We were lead to the set of chairs towards the back, close to the bathrooms. There were some muscular boys sitting on our chairs but were quickly shooed away by one of the staff. I am quickly reminded what made me like this bar in the first place. Muscular guys in skimpy underwear running around the place. Some of them were flexing onstage, some were milling about, some were sitting with customers, and others just in the back with us, sitting down. There was probably about 15 boys in total. Not a lot but I figure enough for me, from the looks of it This bar was probably the singular bar that made me want to visit out Thailand. I was always curious about all the Bangkok boy bars, but Rush’s Bangkokbois blog (@ggobkk now I remember extensively reading it, once I googled it) has heavily featured Tawan, and it had captured my imagination ever since. And the bar has delivered on its promise of muscular boys to have sex with. So I kept going to Tawan. Even when the sauna Clube 117 in Rio de Janeiro came into my life, and thus replacing Tawan as my main source of good looking muscular guys, and the sex was superior to anything that Tawan could give me (i.e. having bottoms for starters), Tawan would still be an occasional haunt of mine. Even after Moonlight and Jupiter have eclipsed The Sun in my muscular Asian dreams. The show started, but I don’t remember any of it. I wasn’t paying too much attention to the action onstage as I was always looking at my phone to see where my luggage was. I can get pretty obsessive about things. Tiago, on the other hand, was reacting pretty openly on what was happening onstage. Gasping at the S&M parts, fascinated at the too perfect and pretty drag queen, and when the chuck wow session began, who could not believe his eyes. “Why are they jacking off?” he asks me. I tell him to notice the people with a collection cans asking for tips. “They are asking for tips, and if there is enough money collected, they will cum.” Tiago could not believe. “Fucking Thailand, man!” he exclaims. "Well the, put some money in!" Tiago excitedly tells me. I fish out 100 baht to add to the pot, to help hasten someone to cum, and to gross out Tiago more. After a few minutes, someone does cums, and Tiago watches jizz fly out from one muscular guy’s penis and land on one of the tables that was occupied by customers. I hope it missed the drinks. Or maybe the customers were into that. The stage is now so close to the seats that this was possible, as opposed to before that the tables were far enough that cum will just fall to the floor. #Tawan problems. Tiago was enjoying every minute of it. I check my phone and gasp. The luggage was mobile! And approaching Silom! And it was only 11 PM! I map out the location and see that it was 10 minutes away! I begin to panic. Should we leave and go back to the house to pick it up? I didn’t want to cut our time at Tawan. A few minutes later Tiago’s phone rings. Maybe it was the delivery driver that had our bag. Tiago hands me his phone and I go to the bathroom to answer it. It was indeed the driver. He tells me he is almost at the AirBNB. I tell him that we were not there, but if he could drive to Soi Than Tawan, we can meet him here. He agrees and hangs up. 5 minutes later he calls again, and upon answering tells me he is at the curb of the Soi. I tell Tiago that the bag has arrived. I quickly pay for our drinks and we leave Tawan. I wanted to spend more time there but this is more urgent. Sure enough the driver was there. He was in a van, no doubt delivering left or lost luggage all over Bangkok. He confirms that I was who I was, and then opens his van and produces my precious bag. I breathed a sigh of relief. Tiago then tells me to go back in Tawan to finish up the show. He will take the bag to the house and then come back to Tawan. He knows that I wanted to spend more time in the bar. He knows me very well by now. I fish out 200 baht out of my pocket, since Tiago did not have any Thai money yet, so he can get a taxi to the house. There are several taxis in the area, so we flag one down and I showed the driver the Thai directions of the AirBNB that was left by the owner. Tiago was on his way. So next post, I'm not gonna let technology ruin my time, is the rest of my time in Tawan, ALONE…

Oh gosh Screwboy!!! The legendary bar! I remember this bar closed late if my memory is not failing me. I've had so many great memories from that bar, and can still distinctly remember the bar's layout. I also remember having a preferred table to sit in that was far enough away from the stage to not be harassed by mamasans and boys, but close enough to have a good viewpoint of the merchandise, as well as ample seating for a boy when I am ready to get to know one up close. I also remember the sort of sketchy front door with a tour always up front. Looked at Google and found this. So much memories flooding back: And looking at an old flyer, I remember a lot more about this place. Yes there was karaoke in the bar as well, and I remember the bathroom for Screw Boy was in the karaoke area, if I am remembering it correctly. I haven't thought about this bar in a while: And to me its greatest strength was that it had a closing time that was later than a majority of the boy bars. I wonder how it was able to get away with that back in the day (as in the last decade). It was very useful if you ended up alone because you couldn't find someone to off earlier, or even more useful if you needed a second off for the night, after your short time session is over early. I don't know why there isn't a late night bar that can do this like Screwboy did before. I have a similar beef with Brazil saunas, with closing times at 11 pm or 12 mn. Which is why Termas in Barcelona is such a treasure. Some other pics I've seen: From 3rd Anniversary celebration. Not the usual boys on offer, but it has a nice shot of the stage, that also brings back memories: And I forgot all about this weird drag queen, but this number was a staple, so can't resist posting it here: So yes, I share all of your wishes to have Screwboys reopen, even mores than Lucky Boys (tho can't hurt having both reopen). Does anyone have the scoop on that? I am completely unaware of what the story has been on that, and the current word on the ground.

I visited K-Man on two occasions and each time made my selection from a tablet. Both guys arrived in a reasonable amount of time and both were "T & B" who lived up to their descriptions. I consider this shop the most reliable in BKK at the moment. K-Man is sponsored by the same folks who run KK Massage.

K-Man Spa sent me loads of boys’ pictures over Line. I knew that they couldn’t possibly all be there and waiting for customers and that I was expected to pre-book. So I assiduously went through all the pictures and shortlisted four. I Lined back and asked which might be available at a certain time. It took no more than 10 minutes for the reply that one of them was, and so an appointment was fixed. Although I gave myself 45 minutes to get to Saphan Kwai BTS station, the BTS ride, including changing trains at Siam, took only about 20 minutes. Adding in walking time from Raya Hotel to Saladaeng station, it took me just 30 minutes at most. K-Man Spa was just down the stairs from Saphan Khwai at the southeast corner of the station; it took no time at all to get to its front door. The chosen – let’s call him Teyko – was waiting. After the brief protocols in the reception where the manager asked me to choose the aroma oil and where I was served some cold water, Teyko led me to the third floor (i.e. fourth level) where the room was. Based on a quick glance, they seem to have assigned the first floor as a waiting area for the boys, and the massage rooms are all on the second and third floors. Anyone with difficulty with steep stairs might want to think twice. The room had a massage table, with a perfectly serviceable face-cradle occluded by a bed sheet. This practice is so common in Thailand, I am no longer surprised. It didn’t come with an attached shower. This was down the hallway. Teyko commenced the massage in his towel – which wasn’t a good sign, but after about 15 minutes, it was dropped without any need for me to tug it away. He began with dry presses before proceeding to oil. He knew quite a few different strokes, which means he’s been through proper training, but his pressure was on the light side. It is not easy for masseurs to know how much pressure a client likes, and so it is important to tell him. Still, he had a tendency to revert to his usual, relatively light pressure a little while each time after I told him to increase it. Although I had booked a 90-minute, I was disappointed too with the coverage. In 60 minutes, I don’t expect the massage to cover much more than the basic areas: back of legs, back and shoulders. In 90 minutes, I’d expect attention to more areas as well, such as the arms, front of legs, and chest. Teyko didn’t seem to have a clearly defined programme that distinguished between 60 and 90 minutes. The afters were enjoyable enough though. He was easily hard. That said, I don’t think I am a demanding person and should be easy to please. At this point, some readers may be hoping for a blow by blow account, but sorry, it’s not my style to get to that level of detail. What I can say is that Teyko was an S2 according to ShamelessMack's "famous" classification system. To round off the session, he offered to shower with me - an offer gladly accepted. He was sweet and good-looking but unfortunately, he spoke next to no English and there is only that much one can do through Google Translate. So, much as I’d like to, I found out very little about him. In total, I spent about one hour 25 minutes there. K-Man Spa’s pricelist showed 60-minutes to be 500 baht for oil massage (550 for aroma massage) and 600 baht for 90-minutes. The manager mentioned something about a minimum tip of 1,000 baht. Their advertising mentioned something about promotions, but either I was outside the applicable time period or it was conveniently forgotten in my case. Overall – would I go back to K-Man Spa again? Yes. Would I choose Teyko again? I think so.

Day 3.75: Trip down memory lane For us return travelers to Thailand, there must be a beacon that gets released up in the air the minute we land at Suvarnabhumi Airport alerting the bars and the boys that we are back. How else would they know that we are back? I may be exaggerating, but it only took one night in two Bangkok bars, and a visit to the HotMale town crier, to get at least 5 messages on Line from past boys I’ve known, asking the eternal questions “You in Bangkok?” After two and a half years, they still hold on to our Line numbers, even after the conversations with them have stopped. Anyway, I received an interesting Line message on the first night of the trip from a past boy: I looked at the last time he messaged me, and it was on November 25, 2019(!), which was the last time I was in Bangkok. I look at his profile picture, and yes, he was one of the last offs I had on that trip. And on this current trip, I remember seeing him at Hotmale the first night, hanging out with a customer. I guess he recognized me as well, because this text message was sent a couple of hours after that encounter. Then I got to thinking, how did he know that it was me on Line? I didn’t have a profile pic, and I never send photos of myself to the boys, so the only way he would have remembered is that he just had a good memory. After two and a half years, remembering my Line from the other faceless farang contacts he has, and recognizing me after a passing encounter in a dark bar. That is truly impressive. I do remember my off with him fondly. I offed him an another boy from Lucky Boys for a threesome: And this little snippet about him: That then got me to thinking, why hasn’t Lucky Boys reopened? I googled and get this listing. Permanently closed? Looking at my last trip report, it seems that I identified Lucky Boys as the best Bangkok boy bar I went to on that trip, as I found the boy offerings, the boy show, and the ambiance to be the best and most balanced. After this New Twilight fiasco, I just don’t know why certain bars are still closed. This is what I said about it in 2019: So in this night of no off, since New Twilight did not deliver the goods for both Tiago and I, I am once again drawing from the past and relying on the company of a past off. Just like MonBoy, I was eager to connect again with Cambodia, and my threesome with him and another Lucky Boys off I called Myanmar which occurred last trip, was a good indicator that Cambodia would be open to a threesome also this time. I ask Tiago if he was up for another threesome with a fun bottom. He doesn’t always say yes when I ask this, sometimes it depends on whether he is tired or would rather watch tv or talk to friends on his phone. But tonight he asked, “Is it a boy from that awful bar?” I laughed. “No, its someone I knew in 2019.” I showed him pics that Cambodia had on his Line Feed. Tiago looks approvingly, and says “Yes let’s get him tonight.” I sent Cambodia a Line message, as we made our way to Patpong to hang out at Hot Male bar. As we sit down, I check my messages and see a response “Where are you.” I tell him where. “I go to you now.” I tell Tiago the news. I see one host boy trying to talk to Tiago and Tiago trying his best to talk back. He still needs help with the English. I wonder he will make it on his own after this week, but I realize there are even more Brazilians in his gym who supposedly can help him in this regard. After 15 minutes of drinking and talking to HM, Hotmale Bar Boy extraordinaire, a familiar figure comes up to us at the bar. It was Cambodia, grinning from ear to ear. He shakes my outstretched hand, and then looks to Tiago and shakes his hand as well. He looked genuinely happy to see me. I tell him to sit with us and asked him if he wanted something to drink (he didn’t). I look at Cambodia more closely. He has not aged at all. He told me he was 22 in late 2019, so he must be 24-25 now, but still looks like a teenager. He asks me about details of my trip, and who Tiago was, and I asked him about the pandemic. He told me he got back last May, after spending almost 2 years back in Cambodia. I asked him what he did during that time, and he said “take care of family,” which was pretty nice to hear. He said after the bars closed, and then customers dwindled, he decided to leave and stay home for a while, but came back once he thought he could make a living doing this again. “You want to come to our apartment?” I ask Cambodia. “Can,” he said. Just that. Can. I ask Tiago what he thought of the idea. He gave a longer answer, more than “Can” (more like beercan), but basically he also "Can". So with this “Can” do attitude, I hailed a Grab Taxi to meet us up at the Surawong side of Patpong, and pretty soon we were on our way. Same same order – Tiago to the left, boy to the right, and me, at the center of this triad, responsible for all of us getting together tonight. At the apartment, the first thing that Cambodia notices was the pile of 3-in-1 coffees left by the apartment owner. “Please?” Cambodia asks, taking one of the packets. “You?” I then ask Tiago. He nods. I guess everyone wants coffee, so I fill up the water heater with enough water, and pretty soon all 3 of us are drinking 3-in-1 coffee. Tiago is again being shirtless again, and is down to his shorts at this point. Cambodia, still as reserved as he was back when I first met him under 3 years ago, was still in his t-shirt and jeans. “You are not feeling hot?” I ask Cambodia. Cambodia smiled, knowing exactly what I meant. “Can I shower?” he asks me. I say yes, pointing to the master bedroom with the bathroom en suite. So he takes off his shirt, folds it neatly and sets it on the couch. He takes off his pants and then folds them as well. Then he turns around and takes off his underwear, and cheekily makes his way to the bathroom. I see Tiago laser focused on those perky buttocks. This was going to be interesting. Tiago chugs his coffee and then excuses himself to do a shower himself. I join Tiago in the second bathroom to have a shower as well. When we emerge back out to the living room, we see Cambodia sitting back down, wrapped in a towel, sipping the rest of his coffee. Tiago goes up to Cambodia, takes his hand, and leads him to the bedroom. Cambodia actually fit really well with Tiago. Cambodia seems to love the deep kissing, so Tiago and him had a time doing that a lot during our time together. And Tiago loves how smooth Asians are (probably why he’s with me) and could rim a smooth ass all night, as he did with Cambodia. Cambodia seemed to be game with everything, and when it came to bottoming for Tiago, seemed to relish the sensation way more than MonBoy did. I could tell that Tiago was enjoying himself, and that in itself was a huge turn on for me. There was a point where he had Cambodia on all fours, and he slid Cambodia towards me so Cambodia could suck my dick. Tiago then started fucking Cambodia slowly at first, and then with some force. Cambodia seem to be game for it, and continued to suck me while thrusts came. The whole time this was happening, Tiago was looking at me, and when Tiago caught my eye, he mouthed the words “Te amo,” to me, communicating that he hasn’t forgotten me in this tryst. “Te amo mais,” I mouthed back. That was actually pretty sweet. When we were done, and showered, Cambodia let me know that he can’t do long time tonight, as he has plans early tomorrow. I didn’t plan on having him on longer so that worked out. Before he left, Cambodia told me that “Next time, you fuck me,” which was a nice gesture. Probably needed to say because although Tiago could do it much better than I do, Cambodia knew I was the one making decisions. 4000 baht and a Grab Taxi later, he was on his way. So Cambodia is 2 for 2 with me, and both were threesomes as well. Some boys just play well with others. Next post, we had to wake up early tomorrow…

I bet you're the type of guy who walks into a new supermarket and goes directly to an employee for help, rather than searching for an item. There are 15 years' worth of posts, extensively researched and reported by forum members, with all the information you need for a memorable trip.

The two structures in upper left of photo appear to be situated where "Balls Sports Bar" (i think it had a few different names over tome) was located. If I recall, the Swiss (Lucas) who managed Tanrtawan Hotel and also ran Dick's Cafe and Balls.