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Upon check-in at the bungalow, the manager wanted to see my 7th day PCR test result. Since yesterday's attempts to get a PCR test in Phuket ended in failure, it was now day 8, and I still had not been tested. The manager was very understanding and helpful after I explained my inability to find a cooperative test facility for my second PCR test in Phuket the previous day. He made a few calls and found I could receive my second PCR test at a very small hospital in Khao Lak, but he indicated that it might not be free since it was supposed to have been done on my 7th day, and today was day 8. I drove to the hospital, checked in, and waited my turn. There were a number of farang there for the same thing, some were families with small children. The test was free, no mention was made that I was one day late. Khao Lak was sure much more accommodating than Phuket had been to obtain a PCR test. The next morning after my 8th day PCR test, the manager came to the bungalow with some bad news. I had tested positive on the PCR test, although with a very low viral count of covid. I was in disbelief as neither of us were experiencing any symptoms at that time. This meant N would need to be tested by PCR as well. The bungalow staff asked us to both take ATK tests at this time. The ATK tests for both of us were negative. We had been staying together, so we almost certainly both had the virus, and would likely have both been at the same stage of infection. Wait a minute, how could I test positive for covid on a PCR test, yet my ATK tests were all negative? The following link provides the answer. The Omicron variant is not always detected on an ATK or rapid antigen test. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/05/health/covid-rapid-test-omicron-detection.html If you can't access the NY Times site because it may be behind a firewall for you, the article can be read here: https://bdnews24.com/coronavirus-pandemic/2022/01/06/emerging-data-raise-questions-about-antigen-tests-and-nasal-swabs At this point, I asked for a second PCR test, suspecting a false positive. After an hour or so, the answer came back from the hospital - "NO second test will be done. You will be sent to quarantine." I had many questions, and nobody available to answer them. Since I did not have any symptoms, I had visions of being placed in some old unused military barracks as an isolation facility, as without symptoms, I certainly didn't qualify for, or need a room in a regular hospital. Nobody issued any instructions to me, other than that later that afternoon, I would need to report to the hospitel. But after lunch, the hospital called the bungalow manager, and offered me a choice of two hotels that were being used as hospitels, in partnership with the hospital. I looked up the hotels on the web, and made my choice of hospitel. I was told that an ambulance would take me to the hospitel later that afternoon for the check in procedure. Since I had the rental car, and the rental car office was two hours away in Phuket, I could not return the car. I told the bungalow staff to inform the hospital that I would drive my car to the hospitel quarantine hotel, and to please cancel the ambulance. The hospital agreed to that. I was not about to strand N at the bungalow, as he was rather confused by all this as well. In Khao Lak, there is no public transportation, no songtaews, no taxis, no motorcycle taxis, and no way for him to get to the hospital to be tested other than in our rental car. Since I was not yet under quarantine, we put our masks on, and I drove N to the same small private hospital that administered my test yesterday, as he needed a PCR test. At the hospital, there was a lot of discussion, and they then directed N to go a small government hospital a couple klicks away, since he did not have insurance that would cover the cost of a private hospital's lab fees. So off we went, in search of the second hospital. The government hospital was certainly not Bumrungrad quality, but an older, small typical government facility with a billboard in front, displaying a huge image of King Rama X. It took about 45 minutes for N to wait to be tested. Since N's PCR test was administered one day after mine, I would stay that night in the hospitel, and he would stay in the bungalow, as his test results would not be back until the following morning. The doctor at the small government hospital told N that if his test was positive, he would be sent to stay at the same government hospital for his isolation period, as it would be free of charge for him. Out of earshot of the doctor, I told N that he would not be going to the government hospital if he tested positive, but he would stay with me in the hospitel. This caused an immediate problem, as I was seen as trying to override the decision of a Thai doctor. At this point, I decided the doctor's loss of face be damned, N was going to stay with me if his test result came back positive tomorrow. N went back to speak with the doctor again. The doctor tried to dissuade N, telling him how much I would have to pay for his stay, while he could stay in the government hospital for free. What the good doctor didn't understand was to never get in the way of a determined sex tourist. I didn't travel on three airplanes, across 12 time zones, all the way to Thailand to stay alone in quarantine for 10 nights of my holiday, and I wasn't about to allow a Thai doctor to prescribe celibacy for both of us, in order to save me some baht. Arriving back at the bungalow, I packed my belongings, and I gave N some money for meals and beer. He was distraught at the thought of my leaving him alone, and the uncertainty of what would happen to him. I assured N that he would almost certainly be coming to the hospitel tomorrow, as I saw zero chance that he could not have contracted the highly contagious virus as well. N told me several times he would go to the government isolation facility, as he was very concerned about the cost that I would have to pay for him to stay at the hospitel. I let him know that I would not leave him to stay alone, far from home. I would have felt like a complete jackass to abandon him at that point. The following morning N's PCR test came back positive, as expected. Of course if one of us had it, we would both have it, as we had been sleeping together since my release from the first night of quarantine at the Quarter Silom one week previous. In both our cases, the ATK tests had given false negatives. I would hesitate to put my trust in an ATK test in the future. All I know is they were useless in our two situations in identifying any virus. Two ATK tests each, two days apart, and all were negative. My second ATK test was negative even after a PCR test had proven otherwise. The doctor said we both had very low viral counts, and may be released in 5 days because of it (a white lie). I had N ask the doctor in Thai why our ATK tests were negative. He said because we both had very low viral counts, so the ATK tests would not detect it. This corroborates the information from the NY Times article I linked above. Thinking back to where and how we were possibly infected, we decided the most likely place of contact was our second night in Patong, while watching the ladyboy show. Although the show was outdoors, the tables were not far apart, and we were there about 90 minutes, unmasked and amongst a group of other unmasked customers. Sitting in close proximity to other unmasked customers, even though outdoors, seemed to be the path of transmission. The doctor told N that the new variant was possible to catch in under one minute outdoors, if unmasked and in the close vicinity of an infected individual. We had both been careful of mask and hand gel protocols in order to avoid catching the dreaded virus. We tried to avoid crowded places, and aimed to eat at open air restaurants with not many customers. But in the end it was not enough to avoid a few stray covid particles. At least I know I did not import covid into Thailand, as I had two negative PCR tests, one three days before departure, and one about 4.5 days later, upon arrival in Bangkok. I had thought we were safe in the outdoor seating area, but apparently not. In the future, if this pandemic persists, I intend to avoid outdoor seating areas where people are unmasked as well, unless the tables are spread far apart. In any case, we were both headed to quarantine. Last photos of the beach at the bungalow resort: to be continued...

I'm going to suggest trying the apps before going to strictly commercial venues. Try Grindr, but also try Hornet, Planet Romeo, Jackd, and Blued. Many boys on the apps are non commercial and also speak English fairly well. I would register on all the apps before your trip and upload a few decent photos of yourself. If you get responses - and believe me, you will - you can then explain what you are looking for, along with what you don't want. Use simple language and no slang. That way, the boy will know what to expect when he meets you and you won't have to feel awkward or embarrassed because you will already have communicated with the boy. In my opinion, if the first thing the boy seems interested in is "How much you pay me?", that's a wrong boy and move on. Also, this cultural norm stuff is a lot of garbage. Over the years I've seen all kinds of dos and don'ts information. Nearly all of it is nonsense and you'll find the boys pay attention to hardly any of it. It's the last thing you need to worry about. Just be yourself and you'll be fine. If it's all new to you, you might be a little apprehensive at first. That will pass quickly - very quickly.

And don’t worry about length. I am taller then you and never got a boy rejected because of my length. Money boys rarely reject someone. Most comfortable for you would be a massage boy. Go to a massage shop. Select your boy. And then make it know you want sex. Tip him like 1000 to 2000 baht and he will comply 99.9% of the time. In my experience they expect that request even. The hetero men pick ladies.

Thanks for sharing the story of your trip, and the great photos. Deciding to keep N with you as you enter quarantine speaks volumes about your relationship. So long as Thailand insists on a second PCR test, outcomes like this will deter would-be tourists (myself included) from visiting. Omicron is with us until it runs its course and no country can test its way out of it. Looking at today's headlines in the Bangkok Post, the mixed messaging the government is sending couldn't be more evident, something I'd been doing (pre-covid) 2-3 times a year since 2002. The Centre for Covid-19 Situation Administration has approved a travel bubble with India in hopes of attracting high-spending young people (earlier this week it was announced that travel tours were being negotiated with China and Malaysia). Meanwhile, the Tourism Authority is wheeling out yet another version of "Amazing Thailand" to attract international tourists in an attempt to rebuild the economy. If the government would simply revert to the original version of test-and go it would realize a far greater yield than all the promotions combined.

Up to this point, I had followed the health regulations of Thailand under the covid rules. I downloaded the Morchana app before arriving in Bangkok, wore a mask, used hand sanitizer, scanned my temperature upon entering businesses, etc. But it all started to fall apart on my 7th day. This was the day I had planned to get the required second PCR test under the one day Test & Go entry program. I had checked the Ministry of Public Health web site to access the list of approved labs for PCR tests in Phuket. Of course this being Thailand, the list was outdated, or at least the list in English was. I chose a private clinic in Patong from the MOPH list. I took my paperwork, and drove to the clinic. There were no customers when I arrived. The receptionist/nurse went in the back to show the doctor my papers. He flat out refused to test me. The nurse told me to go to Patong Hospital (not on the MOPH list). So I then drive to Patong Hospital, and after sitting in the waiting area for my number to be called, a nurse at a desk in the lobby told me they would do the test, but I needed a letter from my hotel. So back to the hotel I went, and asked about a letter at the front desk. "Not our hotel, you get letter from your Bangkok hotel". I asked the receptionist to please call The Quarter Silom Hotel, where I had spent my first few hours in Thailand. I figured she would get further than I could on the phone, as she seemed to understand my plight. Of course, the Quarter Silom refused to issue me a letter. The Quarter Silom insisted that the pink paper given each passenger arriving at the airport was all that was needed to obtain permission to receive the second (free) PCR test, and to receive payment from the Health Ministry in Bangkok for the cost of the second PCR test. So back to Patong Hospital we went in the car. By now, the hospital lobby was packed with people awaiting assistance. This second attempt at Patong Hospital was as useless as the first visit. After sitting in waiting area once again for my number to be called , again they refused to help, still insisting on a letter from the hotel. The Quarter Silom was correct, as I found out the following day in Khao Lak. Since the private clinic and the Patong Hospital were uncooperative, I was fast running out of options and time that I was willing to invest in this fruitless pursuit. At this point, after spending nearly the entire morning running back and forth and getting nowhere, I said fuck it all, and just decided to chill. If two approved medical facilities were unwilling to help after my repeated attempts, I decided I had done about all I could to comply with the arcane rules of the Kingdom, at least for today. I wasn't trying to flaunt the rules, but I think many others would also have given up by this point in the day. Since the morning had been wasted trying to get a PCR test, after lunch we purchased ATK tests at a pharmacy. I had totally given up on the Thai red tape to obtain a second PCR test until we left Phuket the next morning. I thought both of us taking ATK tests was the next best thing. N's test was negative. My sealed test packet from the pharmacy had no liquid in the vial, not one drop, so it was useless. That was 150 baht wasted. The box said the test was made for a German company, but in small print, it said "Made in China". Typical of shoddy Chinese manufacturing and quality control. We went to a 7-Eleven and bought a different brand of ATK test for me to test with. My new test result using the 7-Eleven kit was also negative, the same as N's. That evening, we went to Soi Bangla one more time after dinner, and walked on the beach for a while, before winding up back on the balcony at the hotel for drinks and some moo ping. The following morning, we would be driving about 2 hours north from Phuket to a reserved beach side bungalow in Khao Lak, in Phang Nga province. This is Saphan Sarasin, the bridge that connects Phuket island to the mainland of Phang Nga province. When driving into Phuket from the mainland, all vehicles must pass through a military police checkpoint. The MP's wanted to see my passport and driver's license both times upon entering Phuket province by car. Since the bridge is not very long, there is also a nice foot and bicycle pathway to cross the channel This narrow channel of water is all that separates Phuket island from the mainland. There are many food vendors and a waterfront restaurant at the southern end of the bridge After crossing the bridge, you are in Phang Nga province On the way to Khao Lak from Phuket, we took a detour to the Samet Nangshe Lookout. It's located on a mountaintop, with a gorgeous view out over Phang Nga bay. Much of this area of Thailand features limestone karst formations that are covered in rainforest vegetation. Similar to Guilin in China, or Halong Bay in Viet Nam. And the unique karst formations are not only in the sea, they are spread throughout this region on the land as well. The road to the top of the lookout is a heavily rutted and extremely steep dirt road. Since the lookout is on private land, everyone is charged a small admission price. You have two options, either walk to the top of the mountain for 20 baht, or ride in a 4 wheel drive songtaew for 80 baht each. I didn't see anyone walking to the top. In just a few minutes, the songtaew filled with passengers, and we were off. It's the only time I have ever ridden in a 4 wheel drive songtaew with big off-road tires. The ride requires you to hold on tightly, as the truck bucks and heaves over the potholed and heavily rutted steep road surface while slowly making its way up the rough hewn path to the summit. Before arriving at the lookout, I had envisioned driving the rental car up the mountain, but there's no way a car could manage to traverse the road to the top. 4 wheel drive truck, or by foot were the only options. Samet Nangshe Lookout, high above Phang Nga Bay: The bungalow resort was located on one of the best beaches in Khao Lak. The sand at White Sand Beach was soft like powdered sugar. The water was very warm, and perfectly clean. And plenty of natural shade to escape the heat... There was room to park the car right in front of the bungalow - just make sure you don't park beneath a coconut palm tree. Falling coconuts can really put a dent in your ride. There are several bungalow resorts located adjacent to each other. They all offer beach front dining. Unlike Phuket, the food and beverage prices are very reasonable. The food was very good. Everything we ordered was tasty. Our first night at the small resort, a man from Germany saw us headed to eat dinner at the beachfront. He stopped us to tell us how much he enjoyed eating here, saying the food was excellent. There are attractive beachfront dining areas at the resorts to be continued...

Good for you on the new partner!

A nightmare. I wonder how many other tourists are in a similar situation? I'm delighted you taking are care of N. Thais recognise and appreciate love when it is offered so spontaneously. Trying to think of positives, I can only allude that you are both well. And together. Best of luck.

Covid19 travel made me weary and now I picked up a partner that I don't want to leave (unless to travel with him to EU). He is from Madagascar and divine.

that's simple, if you are not interested in touching anybody's dick , just don't touch it, no ? My advice is just go and see what happens without any preconceived notions. If you are bit apprehensive I'd say before you immense yourself in sauna crowd , first try one on one encounter with somebody found on apps or even better massage or bar guy. Welcome to the forum

You can often make stop overs happen and things work better if you can get an actual agent on the line to work it for you. Good luck!

Some people love Bangkok some hate it. Personally I love it. The excitement, buzz, of a bustling Asian city! Nothing like it! Can’t wait to return.

I'm enjoying reading about your trip, thank you for posting. I'm sorry to hear of the bureaucratic problems you've been encountering, but I hope that is offset by the enjoyment you're having. The photos are brilliant.

Thanks; every photo is beautiful and evocative, particularly on this cold London morning. Even photo of the menu; I've chosen today's breakfast, lunch and dinner! I'm sorry to read about the problems with your test. It's hard to see what else you could have done but, on consideration, I suppose it shouldn't be that surprising....TIT. Please keep reporting and sending those photographs. They brighten-up my day.

Last April I went on my post-vaccine trip to Santo Domingo--without benefit of this forum--and had a pretty good time (basically free Grindr guys and pain Juan binbin ones). Fun to the extent I wanted to go back--now all the more so that I have found this forum and info about Manny and Ezekial's guys! Planning to be there 2 weeks from today. First a quick report of what I did last year. Stayed at the RIG Casa Conde for 9 days, it was about $40/night, they gave me one of the few rooms overlooking the street with a balcony, which was a nice aspect, I could sit on the threshold of the door (still benefiting from the awesome AC) and watch the world go by. (I confess I'm not a tropical-weather guy.) No problem with having guests, the reception is on the mezzanine and the guys would walk past the glass-enclosed reception, reception never said anything to them but I like that the guys would have an awareness that it is not a totally unsecured place. As for the fun, yes it was fun. I'm a bottom guy, love big dicks of course, also like nice bodies, handsome faces and good kissers. Started out on the right foot with a Chilean guy a few hours before I arrived who was all of those and ended with a Dominican a few hours before I left who was too. (Nicely, the first and the last were the 2 best!) In between, a lot of guys with 8-9", in their 20s, mostly skinny non-gym, some handsome, some less so. And one guy around 40 with a great body and great kisser who went for hours, reminding me yet again that a big dick is not a requirement for great sex, nor is bareback. (On PrEP and prefer raw; I would say about a third of the guys were down with raw.) I would have about 3-5 guys a day, from about 5 minutes ,to that guy for several hours, pretty slutty although I doubt I qualify for BlkSuperman's league I'm open to paying (and did a few times) , but of course why pay for what you can get for free, plus the thrill that this hot guy is fucking me because he's into me not because he's getting paid is priceless. (I confess it is a thrill very hard to surrender as I get older.) Basically I would Grind during the day and if I wasn't satiated by around 4 or 5, I would heard to juan binbin (a few blocks away). The neighborhood drops off quite precipitously in those blocks, I always walked without trouble, it seemed so silly to order and Uber for 3 blocks, but the owner advised me against it (and once kindly even drove me back). I went there maybe 4 times, went with 3 different guys, the guys were not the super hottest (it's not the 117!) and never more than 10 were there at a time. 2 out of the 3 were very good (one was named Federico) and very obliging (I like it slow suavecito, not pounding and I find it's tough to get straightish escorts to deviate from the doggy-style pounding playbook. Also were good kissers and cool with breeding. You pay the owner, the rate is fixed, about $40 I recall. Once I went by and there was no one I was into and it was no problem that I just looked without buying. (Federico wasn't there otherwise I would have gone with him again.) One time I went with a guy who was boring and not very hard, I mentioned it to the owner and he was apologetic that the guy was new. Virtually no other clients around but this was April 2021, so maybe that's why... Went to Apollo once on a weekend afternoon, it was actually very busy. Although many were wearing masks, it seemed a little excessive risk even though I was newly vaccinated, and since I wasn't getting a flood of attention (I'm pretty fit, but late 40s, so older than most everyone there) I didn't stick around long. Guys were kind of in the same range I was finding on Grindr. Also went to Cine Lido twice (the idea of sucking off straight guys, I confess, does seem pretty hot) but not very crowded (15-20 guys) and guys not very hot, but maybe because of the pandemic. Incidentally, on the corner to the west of Cine Lido, the Chifa (in parts of Latin America, "Chifa" refers to pre-prepared Chinesish food) the fried chicken is delicious, and was surely the highlight of my two visits to Cine Lido and the culinary highlight of my visit. I walked on my 2 visits, only about 4 blocks uphill from hotel, but as with Juan binbin (in a somewhat similar direction) that may have been too cavalier. One last thing that made a nice contribution to my trip was the Gym Colonial, on Calle Conde, around only $2 for the day (yes, I love a bargain!) So, as I say, I had a nice time last year that I was planning on going back this winter (when it is a little cooler) Now that I have read here about Manny and Ezekial's guys (I swear it sounds almost to good to be true!) I am really looking forward to it, I'm eyeing Feb 10-21 with both weekends in SD and maybe 3 days Mon-Thurs in Punta Cana. Is 3 days enough in Punta Cana? I haven't read much about Ezekial's guys here there so think of keeping the emphasis on SD. When I finalize my plans and buy my tickets, probably next week I will contact them and start browsing the possibilities. Are there any must-haves that I should definitely not miss?? Any ones in particular I should start with?(all other things being equal, I would say to start with the guys who have more beautiful faces but are not quite so XXL and work my way up to the guys who are pure XXL dick plays. My preference is for guys who are open to slow penetration that lasts a long time (some pounding at the end is cool), and who are open to making out. Prefer taller to shorter, but flexible. I hope it is ok to ask, do any of them bareback, it's by no means necessary but all other things being equal, I do prefer it (The trip report from Arabcreamer suggests yes) So, thanks again guys for any and all suggestions!

From Thai Enquirer By Natcha Patanasophon Sex is a rarely discussed topic in Thailand, and it’s been like this for centuries. But conversations around sex education with a focus on gender identity and sexuality are finally starting to change. Chaitong Yingpeant, an adult content creator who prefers to use an anonymous name, told Thai Enquirer that the country suffers from a long history of distorted information about sex. It’s a problem rooted in conservative beliefs, he said, one where traditional opinion is that young Thais should avoid sensitive conversations about sex in their entirety. “Thai society now misunderstands sexuality,” Chaitong said. “Adults and the government need to focus on providing proper sex education. If people receive correct information, then there will be less misunderstandings about sexuality and sexually transmitted diseases.” He believes that people’s perceptions towards sex is changing quickly. Today, there’s more access to knowledge than ever, so there’s no reason why this should not be reflected in Thai schools as well. Continues at https://www.thaienquirer.com/37450/sex-talk-why-thailand-needs-to-have-healthy-conversations-about-sex/

me neither, water in the sea in Pattaya is as moist as in Phuket and when I dry out , scene seems to be better , even now

You going for vacations so focus on pleasant side , not potential pitfalls. After all you can slip while walking to check-in counter in Amsterdam and break your leg or God forbid, be bitten by stray dog while leaving your house with suitcases

What an unbelievable state of affairs. It is no wonder tourists are put off hearing horror stories like this. Lost bungalow booking, lost car rental, lost time with a loved one....for what, a bit of flu. A Thai friend of mine and his ladyboy wife both caught covid in Pattaya a few weeks ago. They were both sent to a hospitel at government expense but had to have separate rooms. I hope you are more successful.

at end of day you won't be disappointed, that' for sure

I'd forget about saunas; they are closed. And the scene has declined since I arrived twenty-five years ago. Are you interested in commercial sex or hoping to hook-up with gay guys? Remember that the scene in Bangkok is much more commercially-orientated than at home. And that includes the apps.

I have two observations. Firstly, is the problem regarding open discussions about sex in Thailand related to the pervading issue of prostitution and its sister- so popular among the more affluent- the "mia noi" , and the desire of many, on both sides of the equation, to maintain a degree of secrecy? And secondly, the Thais' embarrassments regarding intimate, revealing , difficult and sensitive interactions is not just related to sex, is it?

It was a cheap shot. The author could have made his point without making the retirees the butt of a poor attempt at humor.

considering how sparse were crowds there in Dec , supposed peak season it's quite possible they decided it's not worth being open for now. On another hand those times are idea for bona fide renovations and disruption and effect on bottom line is minimal

rest assured covid related idiocies are everywhere. As reported in other thread recently ( on Sunday ) I was forced to take PRC test twice in the same say by two very developed and otherwise well governed Western nations.

+1

From Richardbarrow.com The Covid-19 task force approved lower fees for COVID-19 tests that would take effect on March 1. An antigen test kit that people will buy will be priced at 55 baht, down from 80 baht. The fee for an RT-PCR test by service units will be cut to 900 baht from 1,200 baht.

Daydreamer You are not the only one to have trouble with the second test. After 6 or 7 days ( that was the rule in December) I returned to the hospital where I had the first test. I asked about making a booking for the second test and they insisted it had to be done on line. They gave me a QR code but wouldn’t book me in. Went back to my room and tried on line. Eventually after a few hours I thought I’d made a booking but got no confirmation or even acknowledgement. So I turned up on the day and walking to the entrance tripped up over an unmarked step in the car park. Dishevelled, I sat in the queue for over 2 hours until my number was called. That was on the 3 January. Now, nearly 6 weeks later, I am still waiting for the result. Ive lost interest!

Agree it’s best to use an ATM (try to use one in a bank lobby, during the day for best safety). An exchange kiosk at a mall or airport is giving to be a far worse rate most likely even after accounting for ATM fees. You can check with your bank to see if they have any partnerships with Brazilian banks to waive ATM fees. For Americans - I highly recommend signing up for a Charles Schwab checking account - it’s completely free with no minimum balance and they offer unlimited reimbursement of ATM operator fees worldwide. I just keep a nominal amount in it for withdrawals while traveling and top it up from my main bank via Zelle as needed.

No on two counts, including the patient and accommodating combined as one of them. I was referencing having asked something of someone I don’t deem to be an asshole. In contrast, I don’t hope for or count on anything from assholes unable to be open. More specifically, only a grandiose asshole imputes that a request such as agreeableness and forbearance is requested of them by a particular other when in fact it wasn’t solicited at all; more importantly, that other doesn’t give a shit about your reactivity. De-centre, try to stretch your attention span (oh, pin dropped, there it goes), and consider trying some content revisionism because this invariant routine is long past tiresome. It could ever barely pass as droll; now it’s just troll.

like us 😆

That’s not a stretch. And it is a stretch.

After a couple of trips, you won't need them anymore 😆