Leaderboard

the western clientele of the past 25 years are simply a declining species. The bulk of this clientele (actually both gay and straight) is/was older guys well past their prime and/or not in the best of body shapes (no offence to anyone, here or outside this board). They become too old to travel and eventually pass away. There is hardly a new generation of such people following in their footsteps as those grew up gay into a much more open society when it comes to being openly gay. Also, being younger, they are much more likely to embrace first the internet (think Romeo) and now the apps. Yes there are younger western gays going to the gogo bars, but their numbers are minimal compared to the previous, older group. This is just my personal theory. There will presumably be other factors at play, too.

Thanks for your comments. I have singled out the two main issues for i believe there are two simple reasons. Economics being one. Failure to adapt being the second! Because for decades, well - at least two and a half decades, the bars survived well using one business model, they failed to adapt as their traditional customer base declined. This is a point you made some years ago. This model depended on lowish drinks prices and a goodly number of offs each evening/week. As has been stated on this forum before, until the early 2000s that base was largely a mix of westerners and Thais. From my observations, the Thais were the first to drift away, followed much more gradually by some of the westerners. I cannot pinpoint exactly when this occurred. Perhaps it was during the first Thaksin era Social Order campaigns in the early 2000s. As a result, the number of offs started to decline. To make up their revenues, owners started upping drinks prices. I believe this was the first time red flags were waved about the gogo bars perhaps facing long term trouble. Soon after this, the number of tourists from neighbouring Asian countries began to increase dramatically. Some obviously were gay guys wanting to sample Thailands gay scene. The ethnic customer balance began to change. From my occasional observations, the first of this group appearing in the bars were either solo travellers or small groups of friends. Most came from the richer countries like Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, Japan etc. For them higher drinks prices was no obstacle. Their objective seemed less in finding a boy to off. It was to experience the gogo scene and have a bit of fun. Many of these guys preferred to hit the increasing number of gay saunas and the massage spas, have sex there and then move on to the gogo bars later in the evening just to have a drink or two and see the shows. After one or two shows during their visit, the bars are forgotten in favour of the dance clubs like DJ Station. From other non-Thai chat rooms it is obvious that saunas, massage and clubbing remain of far greater interest to the solo/small group gay Asian travellers. So the number of offs dropped even further, other than perhaps at high season weekends. The result was that off income declined further. Instead of experimenting with different business models, most of the bar owners resorted to the traditional remedy. Bar prices had to be increased yet again. Fast forward a few years and mass tourism from Asian countries begins to flood Bangkok and Pattaya. A large percentage of this lot is on group tours for whose members gogo bars are a new and different experience. As spoon rightly points out, their home societies are more conservative. So even for the women, the sight of scantily clad boys and a few enviable erections is an excitement they can enjoy and talk about with all their girlfriends back home. Gay guys are probably also part of these tours. For them going into a bar with others from their group can mean their sexuality remains hidden. They are just enjoying a night out with their friends. Will they come back again, this time on a solo tour only to spend time in the bars? I think this is unlikely. For the future, I believe the gogo model is unlikely ever to return to what it used to be 25 years ago. The bar owners have to make money. They have been caught in a spiral of their own making. They have no choice but to cater to the new customer base. In my view that will continue, at least In theory, to depend on Asian guys and Asian women. This is the group with cash for whom it matters little if the off price is 1,500 baht short time or 3,000 baht short time. It also matters little if the boys up there on stage are Thai, Cambodian, Vietnamese or Lao because an off is not the objective. It is the women flashing 1,000 baht tips for the flash of a smile and some gentle attention from the boy of their dreams in Moonlight 2018 that are likely to be increasingly seen in bars. The danger then is the gogo bars become much more like the women only male escort bars in Japan. But that is a different topic. The one unknown I cannot fathom is: what happened to the western gay tourists? With the total number of tourists to Thailand having expanded humungously over the last quarter century, there should, again in theory, be far more solo western gay tourists coming to Thailand for the first time for whom the traditional gogo bar model ought to remain a key part of their vacation. Has word got out that the bars are just too boring in this era of much greater gay freedom? Or has a vacation in Thailand become generally too expensive? Or do we yet again place the blame on the apps?

Responding to PeterRS above: Interesting that you raised the issue of gender balance. This was one aspect that particularly struck me after a long hiatus from the scene, and indeed I have quite a bit to say about that (how did you guess?) I think this will be the real death knell for the bars. And I hope some bars begin to experiment with a “Men Only” door policy. Here are the social realities: Straight women outnumber gay men at least 10 to 1. Ditto straight men. Once straight women start getting comfortable in these bars, more and more will follow and gay men will be flooded out. Straight men, chasing women, will start to follow the straight women into the bars.That 10:1 demographic imbalance is such that we cannot pretend that a place can ever remain a gay safe space once the women start coming in numbers. We shouldn’t forget that even today, many gay men are still guarded about their sexual identities. I think it was here on Gay Thailand forum when, in another thread, an issue was made about a bar being careless with its videos, exposing faces of customers. This only shows how delicate the matter is. I had a friend who once noticed a (male) work colleague coming into the bar. He was almost freaked out when their eyes met (from nearly across the room). But at least he could say to himself, "well it’s a case of mutual assured destruction if he outs me. If he is in the bar, he’s gay too. To tell anyone that he saw me in this bar is to admit that he too was in the bar." So in that sense, it was still a safe space. But imagine if my friend noticed a straight female work colleague coming into the same bar (perhaps with a gaggle of other women). Immediately, he would be at a serious disadvantage. She could claim the moral superiority of being heterosexual and interested in the male form (socially fairly acceptable), but he would be exposed as gay (in many countries, still socially unacceptable). The threat of mutual assured destruction is no longer there; it is asymmetrical: a risk to the gay man, not a risk to the straight women. I think in the long run, the bars will need to implement either a men-only policy or have differential pricing where women have to pay twice or thrice what men pay. From some idealistic quarters I can hear people cry “discrimination”. Well, how about calling it “affirmative action” to protect a vulnerable group from being swamped out, and keeping a space safe for them? In any case, why is no one screaming hell and damnation for the discrimination that occurs in so many bars and dance clubs every week where, on “Ladies Nights”, women get in free or real cheap? Read this story from ThaiVisa https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/645338-sometimes-you-go-to-a-women-only-lounge-and-its-just-kind-of-depressing/ Ignore the details of the story. The point is that it describes a bar with a policy to exclude male patrons. If it’s OK to forbid entry to men, it should be OK to forbid entry to women. I come back to an earlier sentence: We shouldn’t forget that even today, many gay men are very guarded about their sexual identities. There is no doubt that there has been an Asianisation of these bars. We’ve only seen the tip of the iceberg. Consider three factors: The populations of China, India and Indonesia are huge; They will grow steadily wealthier; Their societies remain socially conservative. If we are seeing 200* gay men arriving each day from other Asian countries, some time down the road, we may see 2,000 a day. There is a future for these bars (and massage parlours); the potential market is there. But because their societies are socially conservative, it is important to keep the bars a safe space for them, otherwise why should they come? *A wild guess, not that I have any data.

Drink Price 350 baht / Boy Drink also 350 baht Lucky Boys is surprisingly a large place, decor is like a 1960’s stripteases club complete with a mirror ball. Seats are all sofa type and very comfortable unlike Moonlight stools. There were around 30-40 boys wearing black underwear with Lucky Boys written in white letters. Mostly twinks with a few muscular boys. I arrived 10:30 show time. It was non stop single lady boy lip sync shows until 11:10 so arrive before 10:30 or after 11:00 unless your intention is to off lady boys. lol There were about 40 customers including 10 Asian female customers. Surprisingly female ratio is much higher than Moonlight’s. I found a familiar face of Jupiter’s Vietnamese boy Bi #23. Apparently he moved to Lucky Boys last Friday. He is wearing #71 now. Notes; • Customers are allowed to smoke even at show time but since the place is big not so health hazard like Screwboys. • Music is very loud

As the saying goes, "All work and no play makes Jack/Mack a dull boy". In Bangkok recently for work, I made sure my evenings were free. Then tacked on a few more days in Pattaya. The first of four trip reports is up at http://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog with one new report a day. Beware -- these are long reads. Sunday evening upload: Bangkok bars Monday evening upload: Bangkok massage Tuesday evening: Pattaya bars Wednesday evening: Pattaya massage.

There is a series on Netflix called "Inside the Worlds Toughest Prisons" where a British ex-con goes inside to "live" inside a tough prison for a week to document conditions. Not surprisingly many of the toughest prisons he visits are in Latin America. Check out the episodes where he is in Brazil, or Colombia and it is not hard to imagine some of the tough guys that he interviews working in either 117 or 202. There are a lot of hot, shirtless guys in this series but more than anything it shows me what a fine line there is between a hot, seemingly well spoken guy and someone who could be a killer. It's worth watching not just for the eye candy but to remind us all to be careful south of the border.

FloridaRob I met in Rio in 2002, and against all odds became my best friend, and is the one who talked me into checking out Merida! I went to visit him, and literally met a guy 10 minutes after arriving while we were walking to bar owned by a friend ours there. He does know me best...but has a propensity to exaggerate! A lot! LOL

I sense that @floridarob may be a modern version of Edith Wharton with a clear-eyed vision of @Tomcal‘s progress through Mexican society

One of my regular here used to work in tawan. During songkran, he said he wanted to go back working in tawan. Recently he came back here and told me he only go there for 2 days, and not many customer (most come for show and then left), and even the boys there "not good muscle". He is 43 years old and still rocking a great body, and also gives great massage, so i am glad he came back working here lol

Many guys are almost my age or just too freaky/abnormal looking......my opinion

I’m going to Rio for the first time as well in December, I’m interested in seeing how the men of Rio compare to those of Santo Domingo and if it’s worth the extra money to head out there. I hope you come back with a full report!

Well there are in fact such grooming services available, at least in Bangkok. At Up2You Hair Salon, 2nd floor of Charn Issara Tower (off of Soi Thaniya, there's a back entrance to the building) as well as Cutey&Beauty in Thaniya Plaza. The do waxing (which I have done), but I have no doubt they would to trimming and shaving as well

Apps all great but cruising in the park has its own fun. To be honest, am into public fun (and am not exhibitionism).

Good thing he is still young enough to regrow those hair back.

I'll believe that when I see it. Plus you don't have to pay the 23-26 usd tourism tax on every ticket. So how was the 19 yr old Latino in LAX the other night?? You mean you've done a few that work for the government, lol

I have slowed down this past year, and I do have someone special! Thats all I am saying right now in case I slip up and fall back into old habits! LOL

That sounds so hot.

I understood the owners of BBB now are Chinese so they probably have no difficulty to bring large chinese bus tour group companies to their bar. If they have large groups on regular basis why should the boys bother they can be fully dressed and don't have to make any efforts for the customers... Once BBB was the best bar in Thailand for me, Now there's no point to visit there anymore.